There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
There are a lot of facilities for children you're not allowed to leave for one reason or another for a duration. They're not all prisons or concentration camps. Police will drag your ass back to school if they're in the mood for it, summer camps exist, etc.
We are able to use different terms for things which share some but not all common components.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
1) These minors are actually legitimately unaccompanied.
2) They are only being kept for a reasonable quarantine period and then placed in a more permanent placement with extended family or foster care or whatever.
The facility at first blush appears reasonable enough and not a human rights violation or anything.
But the problem is that there is a perfectly justified lack of goodwill toward the government on this issue so while it may acceptable in a vacuum, in context of past abuses it's not strange that people are not happy about this.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
Ways around it are literally what we've been talking about for the last two pages.
Thank you for making your stance on the matter clear. Your opinion that this is unfortunate but necessary and unavoidable is noted.
There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
But it is possible to do.
Eminent domain isn't a quick process and can take years. In the meantime, you still have to do something with those kids and they don't stop having needs, just because the government starts the eminent domain process. I'd also have to wonder if that is even an area that the government can win on because people will challenge it in court and the government is not guaranteed a win here. Then of course, we still have whole issue that these hotels really aren't designed with accommodating the needs of these kids very well. It gets them out of the elements and that's about it because I'm willing to bet whatever the government would get, would be something that has the standard shitty hotel design of "if you want to do something get the fuck out of your room, otherwise stay there and watch TV or read a book."
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
They werent getting booked on charges under the prior administration either when no one had a problem calling them prisons.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
Ways around it are literally what we've been talking about for the last two pages.
Thank you for making your stance on the matter clear. Your opinion that this is unfortunate but necessary and unavoidable is noted.
Yes, and all alternatives have been variations on the same theme. They need to be housed and monitored. The argument the last 2 pages has been over where.
There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
But it is possible to do.
Similar problem with hotels though yeah?
I am advocating for humane solutions that, while imperfect, are better than literally holding children in concentrations camps and private prisons.
If you are unwilling to accept any solution that is less than perfectly accounting for all variables, please say so.
If you feel that the imperfections with the humane solutions being proffered are too great and that holding them in concentration camps and private prisons is preferable, again, please say so, and do specify what issues you have with these our imperfect humane solutions so that we can try to craft and propose better solutions that at least rise above the quality of holding them in concentration camps and private prisons.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
Ways around it are literally what we've been talking about for the last two pages.
Thank you for making your stance on the matter clear. Your opinion that this is unfortunate but necessary and unavoidable is noted.
Yes, and all alternatives have been variations on the same theme. They need to be housed and monitored. The argument the last 2 pages has been over where.
Neither function is the sole purview of prisons. I have no interest in having to have to repeat the last two pages of my posting for your benefit.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
Ways around it are literally what we've been talking about for the last two pages.
Thank you for making your stance on the matter clear. Your opinion that this is unfortunate but necessary and unavoidable is noted.
Yes, and all alternatives have been variations on the same theme. They need to be housed and monitored. The argument the last 2 pages has been over where.
Neither function is the sole purview of prisons. I have no interest in having to have to repeat the last two pages of my posting for your benefit.
Then stop replying to me, I’m going to go right ahead and post as I usually do, put me on ignore if you like. No amount of thinly veiled insults from you will change my mind. You and I disagree, I’m willing to discuss those disagreements. If you don’t, such is life.
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
My point is that there is a non-zero chance that the MAGA crowd are going to go and seek out these kids for harassment. Making sure you can keep said crowd away from the kids is important.
I... don't know if you've actually met any of these racists, but they tend to not be able to tell the difference between an American born cuban teenager or a migrant from Honduras
should we erect walls around every non white person in America for their own safety? It would dramatically cut down on hate crimes!
MAGA chuds have already targeted migrant facilities.
A friend of the dead man said she thought he wanted to provoke a fatal conflict, the Seattle Times reported, and described him as an anarchist and anti-fascist.
If you want to make a specific point find an article that supports it instead of maligning leftists due to being lazy.
You got me, I didn't do due diligence.
There was absolutely an incident with a guy being arrested and him having a big Trump sign in the back of his truck. I'll keep looking.
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
I think I should mention that a solution taking time to bring to fruition should not be a mark against it.
If we are unwilling to start the process for providing better alternatives to the current situation, then the situation will never improve.
Concentration camps have never been intended to be permanent solutions, but nebulous statements that this is all temporary are not reassuring without actual action taken to bring an end to it.
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
The referenced facilities are for after the quarantine. They would be unsuitable for quarantine, they have dorm rooms FFS.
1) These minors are actually legitimately unaccompanied.
2) They are only being kept for a reasonable quarantine period and then placed in a more permanent placement with extended family or foster care or whatever.
The facility at first blush appears reasonable enough and not a human rights violation or anything.
But the problem is that there is a perfectly justified lack of goodwill toward the government on this issue so while it may acceptable in a vacuum, in context of past abuses it's not strange that people are not happy about this.
I trust the US government's word on anything regarding human rights with immigrants about as much as I trust my boss that "we're a family here" means the company would totally have my back if I got cancer
the Government has, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, not earned the benefit of the doubt
I hope that "summer camp" is more applicable to what we're talking about here than "juvenile detention" (which in my experience is usually something we would go to war over if some other nation did that to American children)
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
They werent getting booked on charges under the prior administration either when no one had a problem calling them prisons.
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
But it is possible to do.
Similar problem with hotels though yeah?
I am advocating for humane solutions that, while imperfect, are better than literally holding children in concentrations camps and private prisons.
If you are unwilling to accept any solution that is less than perfectly accounting for all variables, please say so.
If you feel that the imperfections with the humane solutions being proffered are too great and that holding them in concentration camps and private prisons is preferable, again, please say so, and do specify what issues you have with these our imperfect humane solutions so that we can try to craft and propose better solutions that at least rise above the quality of holding them in concentration camps and private prisons.
See the issue here is that you think they are concentration camps and private prisons because that's what Trump did and you don't trust Biden, but there's not actually factual evidence that backs that up right now. You are arguing with people who aren't just taking it for granted Biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps, so there's just... a major disconnect here between what you just accept as reality and what other people think is reasonable to accept as a foundation for the conversation.
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
Whats different? You talk about ignoring details but I see a lot of people using details to ignore all the big things that are the same.
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
Its a facility in which kids are picked up by the government and not allowed to leave. I get that it has a dining tent, like a fancy wedding, but we're describing a prison.
They are allowed to leave though. Once family or a long term caregiver is located. These locations are more for holding than confinement.
Oh, well if we're just temporarily "holding" kids in prison for an indeterminate amount of time...
There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
They werent getting booked on charges under the prior administration either when no one had a problem calling them prisons.
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
There are lots of luxury apartment complexes sitting unused.
Eminent domain for humanitarian purposes would be a nice change of pace but we haven't seized these complexes to care for the homeless during the confluence of a pandemic and disastrous weather conditions, so I realize this is just me wishing in one hand.
But it is possible to do.
Similar problem with hotels though yeah?
I am advocating for humane solutions that, while imperfect, are better than literally holding children in concentrations camps and private prisons.
If you are unwilling to accept any solution that is less than perfectly accounting for all variables, please say so.
If you feel that the imperfections with the humane solutions being proffered are too great and that holding them in concentration camps and private prisons is preferable, again, please say so, and do specify what issues you have with these our imperfect humane solutions so that we can try to craft and propose better solutions that at least rise above the quality of holding them in concentration camps and private prisons.
See the issue here is that you think they are concentration camps and private prisons because that's what Trump did and you don't trust Biden, but there's not actually factual evidence that backs that up right now. You are arguing with people who aren't just taking it for granted Biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps, so there's just... a major disconnect here between what you just accept as reality and what other people think is reasonable to accept as a foundation for the conversation.
Counterpoint: When was the last time any US administration's approach to immigrants wasn't fucked up
I don't trust Biden, and neither should anyone, until it's proven that what we're seeing here is significantly better
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
Whats different? You talk about ignoring details but I see a lot of people using details to ignore all the big things that are the same.
Trump and ICE are not in charge.
We don't have mountains of evidence that these are horrid, inhumane places.
Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
setting aside the very dumb and deliberately insulting "you're not inhabiting reality" statements, I'd say that one of the main reasons people think that biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps is that he was vice president when the facilities Trump used were first built
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
setting aside the very dumb and deliberately insulting "you're not inhabiting reality" statements, I'd say that one of the main reasons people think that biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps is that he was vice president when the facilities Trump used were first built
That was not my intention. I mean that you and I are fundamentally operating on different wavelengths. Our priors are at odds and incompatible.
setting aside the very dumb and deliberately insulting "you're not inhabiting reality" statements, I'd say that one of the main reasons people think that biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps is that he was vice president when the facilities Trump used were first built
That was not my intention. I mean that you and I are fundamentally operating on different wavelengths. Our priors are at odds and incompatible.
I don't believe you! that's why I set them aside. do you have a response to the assertion that Biden was involved with doing the thing that everyone hated, and that's why we don't trust him now? are you going to start making an affirmative, evidence-based case for why this time it's different, keeping in mind that "well they posted the jobs in a different building and are using a different, open-air camp" is not sufficient?
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
So for you it was less that they were putting kids in camps but that open racists were doing it.
It’s a pretty big factor considering that the open racists also wanted to make the experience hell on earth as much as possible.
I feel that the Biden administration approaches this with a similar mindset that I do. That this solution isn’t ideal, but it’s the best out of the numerous bad options available.
I mean they're probably still racists, but yea I agree openly racist cops are worse, because then we get shit like open sexual assault and literal genocidal practices
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
Whats different? You talk about ignoring details but I see a lot of people using details to ignore all the big things that are the same.
Quite a bit. An article was already linked upthread with quite a bit of details. Just to summarize, besides the different admin, HHS instead of ICE is in charge, they are advertising what the end state is and that lawyers are allowed access and are saying congresspeople can schedule tours. The proof is in the pudding, but considering Biden has ALREADY tried to put at least a temporary moratorium on deportations (the courts blocking it is hardly him not trying), he's also put a bill in front of congress that includes a legalization AND citizenship path for most undocumented immigrants currently in the country.
People here are talking about "getting things started" and "making changes to improve". Seems to me that's whats happening.
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
So for you it was less that they were putting kids in camps but that open racists were doing it.
It’s a pretty big factor considering that the open racists also wanted to make the experience hell on earth as much as possible.
I feel that the Biden administration approaches this with a similar mindset that I do. That this solution isn’t ideal, but it’s the best out of the numerous bad options available.
Then there's no reason anyone should be defending the situation, defense of a "Bad situation" leads to complacency, the pressure should stay on to find a better one going forward since this is only supposed to be temporary and Washington has a habit of forgetting about things once the news cycle marches on
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
So for you it was less that they were putting kids in camps but that open racists were doing it.
No, it's that one administration is working to find a solution to a on-going difficult problem, while the other administration was hiding behind the problem to intentionally create little slices of hell because to them, the cruelty was the point.
Also for Christ’s sake people, the United States government should be more than capable of running goddamned dormitories instead of goddamn camps.
The reason they’re camps isn’t because the alternative is hard. For Christ’s sake even the last administration was running these hellholes out of abandoned grocery stores. They’re running this shit like this because they fundamentally do not view immigrants, period, as equal to citizens.
This whole "it's a concentration camp" argument is stupid as all get out. By your argument, any quarantine center is a concentration camp/prison, even your vaunted hotel solution is for any given quarantine period. Anyone who wants to conflate these with the ICE facilities is purposely just playing for emotional points and actually ignoring realities as present.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
So for you it was less that they were putting kids in camps but that open racists were doing it.
It’s a pretty big factor considering that the open racists also wanted to make the experience hell on earth as much as possible.
I feel that the Biden administration approaches this with a similar mindset that I do. That this solution isn’t ideal, but it’s the best out of the numerous bad options available.
Then there's no reason anyone should be defending the situation, defense of a "Bad situation" leads to complacency, the pressure should stay on to find a better one going forward since this is only supposed to be temporary and Washington has a habit of forgetting about things once the news cycle marches on
I don’t think I’ve ever said that they shouldn’t try to improve this process. If that’s “defending” it then fine.
I 100% agree that they should work towards something better. I also believe that currently, this is probably the best approach accounting for the number of children going through this process. But that doesn’t also mean that I must agree with the characterization that these children are being held in prisons or concentration camps, or that it’s immoral to use these places to house these children until a permanent situation is found.
Also for Christ’s sake people, the United States government should be more than capable of running goddamned dormitories instead of goddamn camps.
The reason they’re camps isn’t because the alternative is hard. For Christ’s sake even the last administration was running these hellholes out of abandoned grocery stores. They’re running this shit like this because they fundamentally do not view immigrants, period, as equal to citizens.
We're mostly just arguing whether dorms are also camps.
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Similar problem with hotels though yeah?
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There’s absolutely no way around it as long as minors are crossing the border without a parent.
We have a responsiblity to care for them. Unless we're going to argue that childcare always constitutes a prison I dont think so.
We are able to use different terms for things which share some but not all common components.
These aren’t prisons. They aren’t being booked for a crime. We need a safe, secure place to house these children until long term care is found.
1) These minors are actually legitimately unaccompanied.
2) They are only being kept for a reasonable quarantine period and then placed in a more permanent placement with extended family or foster care or whatever.
The facility at first blush appears reasonable enough and not a human rights violation or anything.
But the problem is that there is a perfectly justified lack of goodwill toward the government on this issue so while it may acceptable in a vacuum, in context of past abuses it's not strange that people are not happy about this.
Ways around it are literally what we've been talking about for the last two pages.
Thank you for making your stance on the matter clear. Your opinion that this is unfortunate but necessary and unavoidable is noted.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Eminent domain isn't a quick process and can take years. In the meantime, you still have to do something with those kids and they don't stop having needs, just because the government starts the eminent domain process. I'd also have to wonder if that is even an area that the government can win on because people will challenge it in court and the government is not guaranteed a win here. Then of course, we still have whole issue that these hotels really aren't designed with accommodating the needs of these kids very well. It gets them out of the elements and that's about it because I'm willing to bet whatever the government would get, would be something that has the standard shitty hotel design of "if you want to do something get the fuck out of your room, otherwise stay there and watch TV or read a book."
They werent getting booked on charges under the prior administration either when no one had a problem calling them prisons.
Yes, and all alternatives have been variations on the same theme. They need to be housed and monitored. The argument the last 2 pages has been over where.
I am advocating for humane solutions that, while imperfect, are better than literally holding children in concentrations camps and private prisons.
If you are unwilling to accept any solution that is less than perfectly accounting for all variables, please say so.
If you feel that the imperfections with the humane solutions being proffered are too great and that holding them in concentration camps and private prisons is preferable, again, please say so, and do specify what issues you have with these our imperfect humane solutions so that we can try to craft and propose better solutions that at least rise above the quality of holding them in concentration camps and private prisons.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Neither function is the sole purview of prisons. I have no interest in having to have to repeat the last two pages of my posting for your benefit.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Then stop replying to me, I’m going to go right ahead and post as I usually do, put me on ignore if you like. No amount of thinly veiled insults from you will change my mind. You and I disagree, I’m willing to discuss those disagreements. If you don’t, such is life.
You got me, I didn't do due diligence.
There was absolutely an incident with a guy being arrested and him having a big Trump sign in the back of his truck. I'll keep looking.
At the very least, any incoming migrants need a quarantine period during Covid. That is time they are not allowed to leave of their own volition, whether kids, adults, or vampires who are extremely old but pretending to pass as teenagers because they glitter in the sun.
If we are unwilling to start the process for providing better alternatives to the current situation, then the situation will never improve.
Concentration camps have never been intended to be permanent solutions, but nebulous statements that this is all temporary are not reassuring without actual action taken to bring an end to it.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
What changed in 2021?
The referenced facilities are for after the quarantine. They would be unsuitable for quarantine, they have dorm rooms FFS.
I trust the US government's word on anything regarding human rights with immigrants about as much as I trust my boss that "we're a family here" means the company would totally have my back if I got cancer
the Government has, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, not earned the benefit of the doubt
I hope that "summer camp" is more applicable to what we're talking about here than "juvenile detention" (which in my experience is usually something we would go to war over if some other nation did that to American children)
Hey, turns out context matter! Things Trump did are different than things Biden is doing! Weird how reality works like that, where wide brush strokes that eliminate all the details tend to get things not very accurate.
See the issue here is that you think they are concentration camps and private prisons because that's what Trump did and you don't trust Biden, but there's not actually factual evidence that backs that up right now. You are arguing with people who aren't just taking it for granted Biden is happy to put kids in concentration camps, so there's just... a major disconnect here between what you just accept as reality and what other people think is reasonable to accept as a foundation for the conversation.
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Whats different? You talk about ignoring details but I see a lot of people using details to ignore all the big things that are the same.
These people stopped being in charge-
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/family-separation-border-immigration-jeff-sessions-rod-rosenstein.html
Counterpoint: When was the last time any US administration's approach to immigrants wasn't fucked up
I don't trust Biden, and neither should anyone, until it's proven that what we're seeing here is significantly better
Trump and ICE are not in charge.
We don't have mountains of evidence that these are horrid, inhumane places.
There, those are two differences.
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So for you it was less that they were putting kids in camps but that open racists were doing it.
A neighborhood is a camp made of wood. Can we please talk about the parts that are bad and not the connotations?
That was not my intention. I mean that you and I are fundamentally operating on different wavelengths. Our priors are at odds and incompatible.
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I don't believe you! that's why I set them aside. do you have a response to the assertion that Biden was involved with doing the thing that everyone hated, and that's why we don't trust him now? are you going to start making an affirmative, evidence-based case for why this time it's different, keeping in mind that "well they posted the jobs in a different building and are using a different, open-air camp" is not sufficient?
It’s a pretty big factor considering that the open racists also wanted to make the experience hell on earth as much as possible.
I feel that the Biden administration approaches this with a similar mindset that I do. That this solution isn’t ideal, but it’s the best out of the numerous bad options available.
but that's a pretttttttttttty low bar
Quite a bit. An article was already linked upthread with quite a bit of details. Just to summarize, besides the different admin, HHS instead of ICE is in charge, they are advertising what the end state is and that lawyers are allowed access and are saying congresspeople can schedule tours. The proof is in the pudding, but considering Biden has ALREADY tried to put at least a temporary moratorium on deportations (the courts blocking it is hardly him not trying), he's also put a bill in front of congress that includes a legalization AND citizenship path for most undocumented immigrants currently in the country.
People here are talking about "getting things started" and "making changes to improve". Seems to me that's whats happening.
Then there's no reason anyone should be defending the situation, defense of a "Bad situation" leads to complacency, the pressure should stay on to find a better one going forward since this is only supposed to be temporary and Washington has a habit of forgetting about things once the news cycle marches on
No, it's that one administration is working to find a solution to a on-going difficult problem, while the other administration was hiding behind the problem to intentionally create little slices of hell because to them, the cruelty was the point.
One of those things is not like the other.
Because I doubt it’s a good answer
Yeah, but there is a reason nearly all the horror stories over these years are about ICE specifically.
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The reason they’re camps isn’t because the alternative is hard. For Christ’s sake even the last administration was running these hellholes out of abandoned grocery stores. They’re running this shit like this because they fundamentally do not view immigrants, period, as equal to citizens.
I don’t think I’ve ever said that they shouldn’t try to improve this process. If that’s “defending” it then fine.
I 100% agree that they should work towards something better. I also believe that currently, this is probably the best approach accounting for the number of children going through this process. But that doesn’t also mean that I must agree with the characterization that these children are being held in prisons or concentration camps, or that it’s immoral to use these places to house these children until a permanent situation is found.
It isn’t just ICE! ICE is one of the worst but the rot never stopped there!
We're mostly just arguing whether dorms are also camps.