It's also factually established that she knew she had some sort of control, when she increased the size of the Hex. And whether or not she knew she was the ultimate source and cause of it, she knew something was going on, and innocent people were trapped and being controlled. The big tipping point in all of this was her walking out of the Hex. And her response was basically "Fuck you, got mine". I wouldn't say she's the villain or a bad person. But I struggle to call her "heroic".
You take that one scene out, and the whole series still works, and Wanda comes off that much more positive. But her leaving the Hex flips the script as far as I can see. "I don't know what caused this and who enslaved this poor town... but I'm happy in it. So piss off.". I just can't see any other way to read that scene.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Now that I think about it, everyone was such window dressing that it might have been more interesting if the town was abandoned post-snap and the only other real people were Agatha, Darcy and Woo.
Just gonna, you know, quote myself here. If you went with this angle you could have populated the town and SWORD with sitcom actors just for fun!
It's also factually established that she knew she had some sort of control, when she increased the size of the Hex. And whether or not she knew she was the ultimate source and cause of it, she knew something was going on, and innocent people were trapped and being controlled. The big tipping point in all of this was her walking out of the Hex. And her response was basically "Fuck you, got mine". I wouldn't say she's the villain or a bad person. But I struggle to call her "heroic".
You take that one scene out, and the whole series still works, and Wanda comes off that much more positive. But her leaving the Hex flips the script as far as I can see. "I don't know what caused this and who enslaved this poor town... but I'm happy in it. So piss off.". I just can't see any other way to read that scene.
Why doesn't that make her a villain? Her actions are roughly the same as the Ghost from Ant-Man and the Wasp.
They both are in pain and find a measure of relief by hurting innocent people, taking something from them.
Maybe she ended the show walking away from her villainy, ok. But I think if the show was called Photon and Monica actually did something important, Wanda would be the main bad and Agatha would be a secondary bad guy, like Sonny Burch from...Ant-Man and the Wasp. Why do all my examples come from Ant-Man and the Wasp?
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Agatha is really just doing her own whatever and it really only seems like she's forced into the villain role because I dunno, let's do that? I feel like if Wanda just told her to piss off very strongly she would have bailed but she felt Wanda was on the precipice of giving it up so why not egg her on a bit and say "all this can go away if you just give it to me." Agatha also spends most of the show just observing and stirring things up a bit, she's not in control or driving the plot really.
Maybe the SWORD director is the villain but he seems to be operating on a level that is really unable to meaningfully change anything. He can be annoying to Wanda, make her irritated, but a bee is never going to be the villain of my story because I'm not allergic to them. It can bother me but it's incapable of actually being a foil.
That really just leaves Wanda. Which is fine! This can be a person vs the self and their own demons story. She can be not totally in control! Sometimes people are the cause of the bad stuff that's happening in their own lives and they need to sort out their shit and get it together so they can stop hurting themselves and others. This is a fine story, it's just not the one that was advertised I think. She is really the only one in the story with the agency to change anything. Maybe WandaVision can appeal to her emotionally, but that hex wasn't coming down until she wanted it to, one way or another.
Thinking about it more, how it should have gone is
-Wanda, without her knowing it, creates the Hex and mind controls the populace -When she realizes this, she tries to shut it down but is prevented for unknown reasons.
-Eventually Agatha mocks her because Wanda subconsciously knows her family are tied to Westview and shutting it down will kill them, which is why she can't do it. She's too afraid of more pain, and thus cannot build the conviction need to cast the counterspell needed to shut down the the Hex.
-When Wanda learns that she is spreading that pain to the residents of Westview, it helps her come to grips with her own pain. She can't wipe it away from herself, but she but she can save the town from it. It gives her the conviction to overcome her fear.
-In the end she leaves, with the Darkhold, to somewhere isolated in an attempt to learn how to control her powers and prevent anything like Westview from happening again.
This way it allows her to be the cause of Westview, but makes it an opportunity for character growth rather than her just deciding mind controlling a town is okay because she didn't mean to do it in the first place.
There's only one thing on that list that didn't happen in the show.
Everything else is exactly how it went, and I think the reason that one thing didn't happen, is because she was legitimately unaware she was hurting anyone, as was made clear in this last episode. Vision knew, but instead of just outright saying it, he argued with her about who he is, and what is going on. Then again, the time he did try to outright bring up something specific she just edited reality to erase the question.
I'm genuinely unclear on what people think she should have done at the end. Turning herself in is demonstrably stupid and would at best serve no purpose, and at worse make it more likely she goes full on evil, as whoever would even have the power to imprison her, would likely just use her anyway. The idea of superheroes turning themselves in has always been stupid. It's why it's so cringeworthy when we see old comics where Thanos gets arrested and things like that. Superman, in Man of Steel, allowing himself to be handcuffed and led along was idiotic; while I can understand the reasoning of "well, it makes them feel safer"...does it? Do those soldiers really not know that at any point Supes could just literally melt them by looking at them?
So, turn herself in, and risk being abused, used, etc, or self isolate, which she does, to serve the same end of removing herself as a danger to others? Just like Banner going on the run to protect everyone else, she didn't have any other choice, really. She knows she doesn't have full control over her powers, just like Banner, and there's no situation where she could be put in, under the control of others, that it doesn't most likely end with hurting more people. And unlike Strange, she didn't have the resources, or luck, to find out about some secret sorcerer training ground with an all knowing and ultra powerful being that could possibly sooth her pain to allow her the peace to heal.
There's no good reason for her to have turned herself over, and doing so as a show of contrition would have had no good outcome. The only way the show could have ended, really, given all that she had done, and why she had done it, was either how it ended, or her creating a hex bubble outside of reality that was just her and her family. Because if she stayed on earth, in a hex, even if it wasn't hurting anyone else, she wouldn't have been left alone. She still probably won't be left alone, but at least now she has some time, and the events of the show gave her more respect for the powers in her, and made it clear to us that she doesn't actually want to hurt anyone, at least if they're not hurting her. And she wants to be able to control herself so that she doesn't accidentally choke out a town of people who are legitimately angry with her, because she can't control her powers. She's seeking control, and she's also seeking the family she lost.
I guess some people wanted her to become out and out a villain? Or something? That they didn't outright do that isn't enough? She's never going to be Captain America, if that's your concern. I imagine, even if she was fully in control of her powers, she's going to tend towards the grey, and I think teaming her up with Strange in that regard is perfect, because that's where he is at too. It should be a great pair up and this show did an excellent job of making me want that. It makes a ton of sense to not focus on Monica's powers too much, because this wasn't her show. And it makes sense to leave a lot of threads wide open, because we've got so many shows and movies coming out, that expecting each thing to tie up cleanly is nutso, given they haven't done that in the last decade either. I even appreciate that Peters/Quicksilver ended up (seemingly, for now anyway) being nothing. It's ok for that to happen sometimes! Maybe it was the writers missing the mark on how fans would react. Maybe it was the writers saying that not everything has to end up being a big thing. I know people were invested in it, I spent a lot of time myself theorizing over it. But I also could just laugh at the resolution and not feel like I was betrayed or misled or anything. It was something, it was Agatha showing that she was just as capable of controlling people as Wanda, and doing it intentionally. And, in the meta sense, it was the showrunners saying to fans "hey, we know the real world exists, lets have fun with it." and that fun not necessarily having to be some major MCU altering implication. It's ok! To me at least.
EDIT: Most, if not all, if the "you's" in the post aren't aimed at the author of the post I quoted, but to the arguments that are being made about.
It's also factually established that she knew she had some sort of control, when she increased the size of the Hex. And whether or not she knew she was the ultimate source and cause of it, she knew something was going on, and innocent people were trapped and being controlled. The big tipping point in all of this was her walking out of the Hex. And her response was basically "Fuck you, got mine". I wouldn't say she's the villain or a bad person. But I struggle to call her "heroic".
You take that one scene out, and the whole series still works, and Wanda comes off that much more positive. But her leaving the Hex flips the script as far as I can see. "I don't know what caused this and who enslaved this poor town... but I'm happy in it. So piss off.". I just can't see any other way to read that scene.
Why doesn't that make her a villain? Her actions are roughly the same as the Ghost from Ant-Man and the Wasp.
They both are in pain and find a measure of relief by hurting innocent people, taking something from them.
Maybe she ended the show walking away from her villainy, ok. But I think if the show was called Photon and Monica actually did something important, Wanda would be the main bad and Agatha would be a secondary bad guy, like Sonny Burch from...Ant-Man and the Wasp. Why do all my examples come from Ant-Man and the Wasp?
Me personally, I need a level of willful malice to justify the V word, and honestly I don't know if it's there. At worst, she's basically profiting off the suffering of others. I'll assume at the time she legit doesn't know it's all her, but she's not too concerned about the plight of others when pressed on it. I don't personally think that makes her "The villain", but she is definitely on the wrong shade of neutral.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
I enjoyed that okay finale.
Things I thought would have been great.
OG Vision and Westview Vision fusing (we almost got there).
Wanda learning from Agatha instead of trapping her in Westview.
Doctor Strange definitely should have shown up.
OG Vision and Westview Vision fusing (we almost got there).
Wanda learning from Agatha instead of trapping her in Westview.
Doctor Strange definitely should have shown up.
Hard disagree on that last one. For all that we can complain that Monica and Woo and co were underutilised, at least they kept WandaVision focused on who it was named after. If Strange had shown up, he'd have taken over the focus and either saved the day or been written as unable to do it and piss off the Doctor Strange fans when he shows up and is useless.
He got a mention and some setup for Multiverse of Madness, and I'm happy to leave it there.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
It was mentioned a page or two ago but Stark has been the reason for tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths in his "quest to right his wrongs and put a suit of armor around the world" and he's spray painted on murals and idolized for the events of the blip yet Wanda who had one accident with her powers in Civil War and a second one here (to some extent it was an accident. She didn't mean for the effects) and she's like Public Enemy #1
That does kinda suck.
Also how the fuck does white vision do the phase shifting? I get it with wandavision and OG vision because the mind stone allowed that magic. White vision was just a robot. That power shouldn't have been in his wheelhouse.
are YOU on the beer list?
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
You can show him reacting to magic getting tossed around a stones throw away without him stepping in. Which if I were to rewrite my original thoughts is what I would have said.
Doctor Strange and Wong are playing a nice game of mancala in the sanctum. Doctor Strange is definitely wearing his yellow gloves.
"Wong, do you sense that?" whilst his hair moves from a source of wind that shouldn't exist.
Also how the fuck does white vision do the phase shifting? I get it with wandavision and OG vision because the mind stone allowed that magic. White vision was just a robot. That power shouldn't have been in his wheelhouse.
Vibranium is magic, woo. Plus, he was powered up with Wanda's magic, which comes from the mind stone, so.
Thinking about it more, how it should have gone is
-Wanda, without her knowing it, creates the Hex and mind controls the populace -When she realizes this, she tries to shut it down but is prevented for unknown reasons.
-Eventually Agatha mocks her because Wanda subconsciously knows her family are tied to Westview and shutting it down will kill them, which is why she can't do it. She's too afraid of more pain, and thus cannot build the conviction need to cast the counterspell needed to shut down the the Hex.
-When Wanda learns that she is spreading that pain to the residents of Westview, it helps her come to grips with her own pain. She can't wipe it away from herself, but she but she can save the town from it. It gives her the conviction to overcome her fear.
-In the end she leaves, with the Darkhold, to somewhere isolated in an attempt to learn how to control her powers and prevent anything like Westview from happening again.
This way it allows her to be the cause of Westview, but makes it an opportunity for character growth rather than her just deciding mind controlling a town is okay because she didn't mean to do it in the first place.
There's only one thing on that list that didn't happen in the show.
Everything else is exactly how it went,
Not really.
Wanda doesn't discover the Hex is tied to her family until she tries to close it. Which means she could have tried to close it much earlier and the only thing stopping her was her own choice. It's a conscious choice versus unconscious action. It's where Wanda actions slip from unintentional to selfish.
and I think the reason that one thing didn't happen, is because she was legitimately unaware she was hurting anyone, as was made clear in this last episode. Vision knew, but instead of just outright saying it, he argued with her about who he is, and what is going on. Then again, the time he did try to outright bring up something specific she just edited reality to erase the question.
A pleasant mind control is still mind control. She robbed those people of their free will, and when she had discovered she had done so, went "Well, I believe they're happier this way, so I'm going to keep doing it." That is monstrous. Wanda should have been frantically trying to shut the Hex down the moment she realized that, but instead she keeps going with it, and only shuts it down after when she realizes they share her pain. She doesn't have to understand or come to grips with something in herself to do it, she just chooses not to and doesn't learn there's consequences of shutting the Hex down until it's thrown in her face that people are suffering.
Imagine her reaction if people popped out of the Hex with no memory of what happened. The Wanda in the show would have just swept them back up into the delusion. The Wanda I want to see would have still considered what happened to them to be wrong and have tried everything to free them.
As is, she willingly commits an atrocity and faces no reckoning for it. She could have ended their enslavement earlier but chose not to. That's where this all falls apart. Wanda CHOSE to let a bad thing continue, for no reason other than she liked it.
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
But it also makes you a sympathetic person. If the only way to keep my daughter alive was to make everyone on this forum mind controlled and suffering my nightmares, well, hope you fuckers have some ambien because I'd do anything for her.
It all falls apart because an actually mentally ill person likely wouldn't or couldn't accidentally capture an entire town in their mental breakdown. Super heroes have great power and great responsibility. Wandas responsibility is to set things right and then go fuck off and learn to control her powers so she doesn't snap again. People are so focused on what happened but ignoring the why, and yeah a lifetime of trauma does not make inflicting trauma on others ok, but remind you it's fiction and comparing it to real life doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's been mentioned a bunch but all the heroes fuck up and have a body count. Ultimately Wanda didn't kill anyone in the town while Agatha had a body count of about a dozen or so witches + anyone else off screen she sucked dry of their magic. Most people have the benefit of not being dangerously powerful magical beings when they encounter mentally taxing situations, so trying to understand the situation from a mortal perspective is silly. It's why Dr Manhattan fucked off to space, he just couldn't be bothered.
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
This is more like you accidentally drugged an entire party, but the same drug is keeping your partner and children alive who are also at that party for some reason, and you really wanna believe everyone is enjoying the experience, but you ultimately discover they don't, so you undrug everyone and watch your partner and children be disassembled before your eyes
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
This is more like you accidentally drugged an entire party, but the same drug is keeping your partner and children alive who are also at that party for some reason, and you really wanna believe everyone is enjoying the experience, but you ultimately discover they don't, so you undrug everyone and watch your partner and children be disassembled before your eyes
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
But it also makes you a sympathetic person. If the only way to keep my daughter alive was to make everyone on this forum mind controlled and suffering my nightmares, well, hope you fuckers have some ambien because I'd do anything for her.
Except Wanda didn't know that would happen until she actually tried it, which is my point. She let it persist for multiple episodes before trying it. Had she tried to shut it down immediately and discovered that her family was tied to it, we'd be having a different conversation, because, as you said, it'd be understandable at that point. Instead Wanda keeps the delusion going because she thinks everyone is happier being mind controlled into her fantasy land.
Pietro even points out that she keeps the children of the town locked up when it's not Halloween. People are asking about empathy for Wanda, but where was Wanda's empathy for the kids she kept locked in their rooms while her own two progeny were allowed to walk free?
It all falls apart because an actually mentally ill person likely wouldn't or couldn't accidentally capture an entire town in their mental breakdown. Super heroes have great power and great responsibility. Wandas responsibility is to set things right and then go fuck off and learn to control her powers so she doesn't snap again. People are so focused on what happened but ignoring the why, and yeah a lifetime of trauma does not make inflicting trauma on others ok, but remind you it's fiction and comparing it to real life doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's been mentioned a bunch but all the heroes fuck up and have a body count. Ultimately Wanda didn't kill anyone in the town while Agatha had a body count of about a dozen or so witches + anyone else off screen she sucked dry of their magic. Most people have the benefit of not being dangerously powerful magical beings when they encounter mentally taxing situations, so trying to understand the situation from a mortal perspective is silly. It's why Dr Manhattan fucked off to space, he just couldn't be bothered.
Agatha being evil has no bearing on whether or not what Wanda did something monstrous. And again, I'm not saying creating the Hex was the monstrous act; that was a reflexive action by a person who couldn't possibly have understood the power she was wielding, because noone else did. The maliciousness comes when she realize she did, in fact, do it, and then kept doing it instead of trying to put a stop to it.
As an aside I feel like you may be conflating my desire for the series to have made Wanda's actions less monstrous with a desire to see her punished. I don't want to see her punished because she's a protagonist. She's supposed to be a hero, an Avenger. I want to root for her. This series seriously impacted my desire to do that. To the point where I'm genuinely ambivalent at her showing up in Doctor Strange 2 while I had previously been excited about it.
Also, I don't agree with the idea that we can't equate or compare these actions to ones in the real world. We are not ants trying to understand humans, nor are we humans trying to understand gods. These are humans with powers that may be fantastical, but are also coherent and understandable, at least to the point of ascribing morals.
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
This is more like you accidentally drugged an entire party, but the same drug is keeping your partner and children alive who are also at that party for some reason, and you really wanna believe everyone is enjoying the experience, but you ultimately discover they don't, so you undrug everyone and watch your partner and children be disassembled before your eyes
Lot of weird takes going on. Agatha was not misunderstood. Wanda did not create the Hex on purpose, though she did keep it going. But not for the lols. She was preserving her family. For what was not a horrible price (or so she wanted to believe). This does not excuse her, but no need to make it worse either. She fucked up no question.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
This is more like you accidentally drugged an entire party, but the same drug is keeping your partner and children alive who are also at that party for some reason, and you really wanna believe everyone is enjoying the experience, but you ultimately discover they don't, so you undrug everyone and watch your partner and children be disassembled before your eyes
That is a hell of a drug
Don't do drugs.
Unless it keeps your master-crafted fantasy family alive. Then do drugs.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
The issue with any punishment against Wanda it only lasts as long as she allows it at this point. Only a fellow god could hope to keep her in check and there are vanishingly few of those introduced in the MCU and even less so that would have an interest in why you'd want her punished.
I honestly can't think of any that have a power set that is guaranteed to work. The first name to pop into my head would be Dr. Strange and he was name checked as incapable of overpowering Wanda on the episode. She is almost in a league of her own. Thor, Danvers, and maybe Vision can keep up with her. None of them have any great way of keeping her contained without constantly being around her.
Franklin Richards is really the only other major Marvel character in her league, and I doubt we're getting Franklin Richards for a while
Other candidates are I guess a fully realized Phoenix and, like, Sentry? Beyonder, maybe?
Molecule Man as well when he is at full power. He would have been a really funny pick to show up here as well even if I can't think of a way to make it work. Wanda and him could nerd out over old sitcoms and just have fun.
I missed Adam Warlock too. Wanda probably still wins but Adam's at least playing the same sport.
Man read a really interesting take that Wanda's hex was an example of how someone going through mental issues hurts more than just themselves and those close to them but everyone. Obviously amplified by Wanda's magic and that its a super hero show.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Man read a really interesting take that Wanda's hex was an example of how someone going through mental issues hurts more than just themselves and those close to them but everyone. Obviously amplified by Wanda's magic and that its a super hero show.
It's a common thing in comics and almost the default in the MCU for stories to be allegory for personal/interpersonal problems, the heroes are metaphorically punching puberty or alcoholism or daddy issues or the disconnect between the man they are becoming and the man they think they're supposed to be.
Man read a really interesting take that Wanda's hex was an example of how someone going through mental issues hurts more than just themselves and those close to them but everyone. Obviously amplified by Wanda's magic and that its a super hero show.
It's a common thing in comics and almost the default in the MCU for stories to be allegory for personal/interpersonal problems, the heroes are metaphorically punching puberty or alcoholism or daddy issues or the disconnect between the man they are becoming and the man they think they're supposed to be.
Still I didn't make that connection but it makes sense especially with them all having wanda's nightmares. They were literally dealing with her actual grief and fear instead of how people just deal with it as someone falls apart around them.
I bet even with the torture she inflicted they feel bad for her or did initially as most people do when someone starts showing signs of instability, but as she kept them in the nightmare and kept them playing parts for her that sympathy eroded and the hatred would take over. She probably left before they could tell her they were happy it cost her her "family" it was the least that could happen to her for what she did to them.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Man read a really interesting take that Wanda's hex was an example of how someone going through mental issues hurts more than just themselves and those close to them but everyone. Obviously amplified by Wanda's magic and that its a super hero show.
It's a common thing in comics and almost the default in the MCU for stories to be allegory for personal/interpersonal problems, the heroes are metaphorically punching puberty or alcoholism or daddy issues or the disconnect between the man they are becoming and the man they think they're supposed to be.
DC is full of Gods pretending to be men
Marvel is full of men pretending to be Gods
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
What I would love to see, in a mini-short or post-credit equivalent scene, is something like this:
*Director Hayward, in a prison cell awaiting trial, looking dejected.*
*Cop knocks on bars, turns key*
*Lawyer person there too*
Lawyer: Mr. Hayward, would you mind coming with me?
Hayward: Sure, but what's going on?
Lawyer: My client has got you out of here and the charges dropped.
Hayward: Who? Why?
Lawyer: He was impressed with your work during the Westview incident and your decisive actions. I'll let him explain.
*Boardroom somewhere. Guy in a suit shakes Howard's hand.*
Suit: Mr. Hayward, come in. I'd like to talk to you about a project I'm working on. It's my belief that these super-powered beings are a fundamental threat to humankind, and based on your actions in Westview I think we share this opinion. What hope could mere men with guns have against an alien who can summon lightning from a clear sky, or one who can reshape reality and mind-control an entire town? What we need is a host of beings on their power levels, but under our firm control and on the side of humankind. Your expertise with the body of the Vision would come in quite useful.
Hayward: Yes, but who are you?
Suit: My name is Henry Gyrich, and I'd like to talk to you about Project Sentinel.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Man read a really interesting take that Wanda's hex was an example of how someone going through mental issues hurts more than just themselves and those close to them but everyone. Obviously amplified by Wanda's magic and that its a super hero show.
It's a common thing in comics and almost the default in the MCU for stories to be allegory for personal/interpersonal problems, the heroes are metaphorically punching puberty or alcoholism or daddy issues or the disconnect between the man they are becoming and the man they think they're supposed to be.
DC is full of Gods pretending to be men
Marvel is full of men pretending to be Gods
I think it’s more apt to say one is the story of gods lost in the banality of humanity, the other is normal humans suddenly endowed with the potential for greatness and trying to figure out what their obligations to their fellow humans are
Superman looks at his adopted home and yearns to belong and fit in
Steve Rogers looks at his new body and thinks about how he can save lives and end wars
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You take that one scene out, and the whole series still works, and Wanda comes off that much more positive. But her leaving the Hex flips the script as far as I can see. "I don't know what caused this and who enslaved this poor town... but I'm happy in it. So piss off.". I just can't see any other way to read that scene.
Just gonna, you know, quote myself here. If you went with this angle you could have populated the town and SWORD with sitcom actors just for fun!
Why doesn't that make her a villain? Her actions are roughly the same as the Ghost from Ant-Man and the Wasp.
Maybe the SWORD director is the villain but he seems to be operating on a level that is really unable to meaningfully change anything. He can be annoying to Wanda, make her irritated, but a bee is never going to be the villain of my story because I'm not allergic to them. It can bother me but it's incapable of actually being a foil.
That really just leaves Wanda. Which is fine! This can be a person vs the self and their own demons story. She can be not totally in control! Sometimes people are the cause of the bad stuff that's happening in their own lives and they need to sort out their shit and get it together so they can stop hurting themselves and others. This is a fine story, it's just not the one that was advertised I think. She is really the only one in the story with the agency to change anything. Maybe WandaVision can appeal to her emotionally, but that hex wasn't coming down until she wanted it to, one way or another.
There's only one thing on that list that didn't happen in the show.
Everything else is exactly how it went, and I think the reason that one thing didn't happen, is because she was legitimately unaware she was hurting anyone, as was made clear in this last episode. Vision knew, but instead of just outright saying it, he argued with her about who he is, and what is going on. Then again, the time he did try to outright bring up something specific she just edited reality to erase the question.
I'm genuinely unclear on what people think she should have done at the end. Turning herself in is demonstrably stupid and would at best serve no purpose, and at worse make it more likely she goes full on evil, as whoever would even have the power to imprison her, would likely just use her anyway. The idea of superheroes turning themselves in has always been stupid. It's why it's so cringeworthy when we see old comics where Thanos gets arrested and things like that. Superman, in Man of Steel, allowing himself to be handcuffed and led along was idiotic; while I can understand the reasoning of "well, it makes them feel safer"...does it? Do those soldiers really not know that at any point Supes could just literally melt them by looking at them?
So, turn herself in, and risk being abused, used, etc, or self isolate, which she does, to serve the same end of removing herself as a danger to others? Just like Banner going on the run to protect everyone else, she didn't have any other choice, really. She knows she doesn't have full control over her powers, just like Banner, and there's no situation where she could be put in, under the control of others, that it doesn't most likely end with hurting more people. And unlike Strange, she didn't have the resources, or luck, to find out about some secret sorcerer training ground with an all knowing and ultra powerful being that could possibly sooth her pain to allow her the peace to heal.
There's no good reason for her to have turned herself over, and doing so as a show of contrition would have had no good outcome. The only way the show could have ended, really, given all that she had done, and why she had done it, was either how it ended, or her creating a hex bubble outside of reality that was just her and her family. Because if she stayed on earth, in a hex, even if it wasn't hurting anyone else, she wouldn't have been left alone. She still probably won't be left alone, but at least now she has some time, and the events of the show gave her more respect for the powers in her, and made it clear to us that she doesn't actually want to hurt anyone, at least if they're not hurting her. And she wants to be able to control herself so that she doesn't accidentally choke out a town of people who are legitimately angry with her, because she can't control her powers. She's seeking control, and she's also seeking the family she lost.
I guess some people wanted her to become out and out a villain? Or something? That they didn't outright do that isn't enough? She's never going to be Captain America, if that's your concern. I imagine, even if she was fully in control of her powers, she's going to tend towards the grey, and I think teaming her up with Strange in that regard is perfect, because that's where he is at too. It should be a great pair up and this show did an excellent job of making me want that. It makes a ton of sense to not focus on Monica's powers too much, because this wasn't her show. And it makes sense to leave a lot of threads wide open, because we've got so many shows and movies coming out, that expecting each thing to tie up cleanly is nutso, given they haven't done that in the last decade either. I even appreciate that Peters/Quicksilver ended up (seemingly, for now anyway) being nothing. It's ok for that to happen sometimes! Maybe it was the writers missing the mark on how fans would react. Maybe it was the writers saying that not everything has to end up being a big thing. I know people were invested in it, I spent a lot of time myself theorizing over it. But I also could just laugh at the resolution and not feel like I was betrayed or misled or anything. It was something, it was Agatha showing that she was just as capable of controlling people as Wanda, and doing it intentionally. And, in the meta sense, it was the showrunners saying to fans "hey, we know the real world exists, lets have fun with it." and that fun not necessarily having to be some major MCU altering implication. It's ok! To me at least.
EDIT: Most, if not all, if the "you's" in the post aren't aimed at the author of the post I quoted, but to the arguments that are being made about.
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Me personally, I need a level of willful malice to justify the V word, and honestly I don't know if it's there. At worst, she's basically profiting off the suffering of others. I'll assume at the time she legit doesn't know it's all her, but she's not too concerned about the plight of others when pressed on it. I don't personally think that makes her "The villain", but she is definitely on the wrong shade of neutral.
Things I thought would have been great.
OG Vision and Westview Vision fusing (we almost got there).
Wanda learning from Agatha instead of trapping her in Westview.
Doctor Strange definitely should have shown up.
Hard disagree on that last one. For all that we can complain that Monica and Woo and co were underutilised, at least they kept WandaVision focused on who it was named after. If Strange had shown up, he'd have taken over the focus and either saved the day or been written as unable to do it and piss off the Doctor Strange fans when he shows up and is useless.
He got a mention and some setup for Multiverse of Madness, and I'm happy to leave it there.
That does kinda suck.
Also how the fuck does white vision do the phase shifting? I get it with wandavision and OG vision because the mind stone allowed that magic. White vision was just a robot. That power shouldn't have been in his wheelhouse.
Doctor Strange and Wong are playing a nice game of mancala in the sanctum. Doctor Strange is definitely wearing his yellow gloves.
"Wong, do you sense that?" whilst his hair moves from a source of wind that shouldn't exist.
"We...need to have a conversation"
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Yeah, I could have seen Strange arrive at the shack and Wanda be all 'would you like some tea?' and that's about it.
But, presumably, that would mess up the plot in Multiverse or something so they didn't.
Not really.
Wanda doesn't discover the Hex is tied to her family until she tries to close it. Which means she could have tried to close it much earlier and the only thing stopping her was her own choice. It's a conscious choice versus unconscious action. It's where Wanda actions slip from unintentional to selfish.
A pleasant mind control is still mind control. She robbed those people of their free will, and when she had discovered she had done so, went "Well, I believe they're happier this way, so I'm going to keep doing it." That is monstrous. Wanda should have been frantically trying to shut the Hex down the moment she realized that, but instead she keeps going with it, and only shuts it down after when she realizes they share her pain. She doesn't have to understand or come to grips with something in herself to do it, she just chooses not to and doesn't learn there's consequences of shutting the Hex down until it's thrown in her face that people are suffering.
Imagine her reaction if people popped out of the Hex with no memory of what happened. The Wanda in the show would have just swept them back up into the delusion. The Wanda I want to see would have still considered what happened to them to be wrong and have tried everything to free them.
As is, she willingly commits an atrocity and faces no reckoning for it. She could have ended their enslavement earlier but chose not to. That's where this all falls apart. Wanda CHOSE to let a bad thing continue, for no reason other than she liked it.
Sorry, keeping an entire town enslaved is a little more than "fucked up."
This is like if you had discovered you accidentally drugged an entire party and instead of putting a stop to things before they got out of hand, you let the party persist on since everyone was having a good time and only after people starting getting hurt did you take away the tainted punch.
Like, you lose any "it was an accident" mitigation when you don't try to fix the problem when you discovered it.
But it also makes you a sympathetic person. If the only way to keep my daughter alive was to make everyone on this forum mind controlled and suffering my nightmares, well, hope you fuckers have some ambien because I'd do anything for her.
This is more like you accidentally drugged an entire party, but the same drug is keeping your partner and children alive who are also at that party for some reason, and you really wanna believe everyone is enjoying the experience, but you ultimately discover they don't, so you undrug everyone and watch your partner and children be disassembled before your eyes
That is a hell of a drug
Except Wanda didn't know that would happen until she actually tried it, which is my point. She let it persist for multiple episodes before trying it. Had she tried to shut it down immediately and discovered that her family was tied to it, we'd be having a different conversation, because, as you said, it'd be understandable at that point. Instead Wanda keeps the delusion going because she thinks everyone is happier being mind controlled into her fantasy land.
Pietro even points out that she keeps the children of the town locked up when it's not Halloween. People are asking about empathy for Wanda, but where was Wanda's empathy for the kids she kept locked in their rooms while her own two progeny were allowed to walk free?
Agatha being evil has no bearing on whether or not what Wanda did something monstrous. And again, I'm not saying creating the Hex was the monstrous act; that was a reflexive action by a person who couldn't possibly have understood the power she was wielding, because noone else did. The maliciousness comes when she realize she did, in fact, do it, and then kept doing it instead of trying to put a stop to it.
As an aside I feel like you may be conflating my desire for the series to have made Wanda's actions less monstrous with a desire to see her punished. I don't want to see her punished because she's a protagonist. She's supposed to be a hero, an Avenger. I want to root for her. This series seriously impacted my desire to do that. To the point where I'm genuinely ambivalent at her showing up in Doctor Strange 2 while I had previously been excited about it.
Also, I don't agree with the idea that we can't equate or compare these actions to ones in the real world. We are not ants trying to understand humans, nor are we humans trying to understand gods. These are humans with powers that may be fantastical, but are also coherent and understandable, at least to the point of ascribing morals.
Don't do drugs.
Unless it keeps your master-crafted fantasy family alive. Then do drugs.
Funny, I was thinking Wundagore Mountain. A place with significance for Wanda and Pietro in the comics.
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I dont think there's a lot of Sokovia left
It was like part of one city and the surrounding area.
I had the same thought. Also, I just want it on record that I predict Sokovia will reform under Doom next phase to become Latveria.
I missed Adam Warlock too. Wanda probably still wins but Adam's at least playing the same sport.
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It's a common thing in comics and almost the default in the MCU for stories to be allegory for personal/interpersonal problems, the heroes are metaphorically punching puberty or alcoholism or daddy issues or the disconnect between the man they are becoming and the man they think they're supposed to be.
Still I didn't make that connection but it makes sense especially with them all having wanda's nightmares. They were literally dealing with her actual grief and fear instead of how people just deal with it as someone falls apart around them.
I bet even with the torture she inflicted they feel bad for her or did initially as most people do when someone starts showing signs of instability, but as she kept them in the nightmare and kept them playing parts for her that sympathy eroded and the hatred would take over. She probably left before they could tell her they were happy it cost her her "family" it was the least that could happen to her for what she did to them.
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DC is full of Gods pretending to be men
Marvel is full of men pretending to be Gods
I think it’s more apt to say one is the story of gods lost in the banality of humanity, the other is normal humans suddenly endowed with the potential for greatness and trying to figure out what their obligations to their fellow humans are
Superman looks at his adopted home and yearns to belong and fit in
Steve Rogers looks at his new body and thinks about how he can save lives and end wars
I thought it was two Wandas, but it’s very similar to Dr Strange so it’s probably just projection.
A decoy illusion would make more sense with our rules so far but also be kinda unnecessary in secluded mountain hideaway but shrug.