“The Left” should be able to agree on “don’t throw QUILTBAG under the bus, let alone do so while declaring your fundie bonafides”
Not a single queer person is helped by “well, you see…” style equivocations on behalf of those in power who then use that power to harm them.
That's not my argument. You'd think the left would agree on something like gay rights, but it's not as solid an opinion as being described - the left aren't saints, they're people like everyone else. I said I disagreed with what the DOJ is doing with this subject, why is this being overlooked?
Progress isn't simple or quick, and it'll go faster with leftist careerists or from congress in the DOJ, rather than ceding the DOJ to the centrists without a fight.
Because it comes across as equivocation, especially when you start bemoaning how hard it is to get people through Congress.
Biden has repeatedly declared what an LGBT ally he is. He’s the one who nominated Garland to the AG seat. And Garland is so far allowing this shitshow to run its course
At some point, either you (the people with power) do the work of being an ally, or you don’t get to call yourself one any longer and we get to point out what a fraud you are and how you don’t actually give a meaningful fuck about us beyond the rhetoric you think will get you votes while leaving us to fight on our own when it counts
The DOJ could withdraw from the case and submit a brief for the other side saying they believe the law is unconstitutional. That is the action of an ally.
Just because a law was passed by congress does not mean the executive has to defend it in court. The US lets private parties bring lawsuits like this for their due process.
The DOJ independence was primarily regarding regular criminal prosecutions and areas with conflicts of interest.
And then it gets to SCOTUS who rule in favor of the people the DOJ is trying to keep out of the case. With the current make up of the court I think we can agree that it would be bad and would extend much farther than just saying what these schools did was ok, possibly going as far as throwing out Title IX completely.
This fucking sucks and I really do wish the world were different, but doing what you are suggesting would be more hurtful in the end, possibly in irreparable ways when considering the ability of Congress to pass a law in response to the ruling.
+1
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Taking anything to the SCOTUS at this point is russian roulette.
+14
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
It's demotivating to belong to a country that constantly fails to deliver on its promises of democracy and equal rights.
+19
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
You can always vote for the other guys, or for an unelectable party.
Never said I was going to break my lifelong record of voting Dem (or the leftmost viable candidate), but it sure is telling that the response to talking about how it sucks that centrists aren't protecting the LGBTQ community and are in fact advocating for discrimination against us is the usual "there's no better option" rhetoric.
Believe me, we know. We know the DNC assumes are votes are locked because they aren't as shit as the GOP and won't bother actually fighting for is, much like many other minority groups in this nation. But you can only string along a community so long before apathy prevails and they stop donating, stop volunteering, and maybe even stop bothering to participate at a federal level.
At least have the decency of admitting that it sucks to defend anti-LGBTQ laws & policies in court, and that this is not ally ship. Especially when the most vulnerable members of our community will be disproportionately affected.
Never said I was going to break my lifelong record of voting Dem (or the leftmost viable candidate), but it sure is telling that the response to talking about how it sucks that centrists aren't protecting the LGBTQ community and are in fact advocating for discrimination against us is the usual "there's no better option" rhetoric.
Believe me, we know. We know the DNC assumes are votes are locked because they aren't as shit as the GOP and won't bother actually fighting for is, much like many other minority groups in this nation. But you can only string along a community so long before apathy prevails and they stop donating, stop volunteering, and maybe even stop bothering to participate at a federal level.
At least have the decency of admitting that it sucks to defend anti-LGBTQ laws & policies in court, and that this is not ally ship. Especially when the most vulnerable members of our community will be disproportionately affected.
You get that response because nearly everyone on the forums has done this dance before, so there's not often a lot of willpower to go through it again when someone new joins the conversation. So sometimes people skip to the end of "yeah but you have to keep doing it because the other option is worse." It's not ideal, but it's not malicious
Also not everyone even on the forums agrees. Again, we've gone through this conversation a bunch of times
Never said I was going to break my lifelong record of voting Dem (or the leftmost viable candidate), but it sure is telling that the response to talking about how it sucks that centrists aren't protecting the LGBTQ community and are in fact advocating for discrimination against us is the usual "there's no better option" rhetoric.
Believe me, we know. We know the DNC assumes are votes are locked because they aren't as shit as the GOP and won't bother actually fighting for is, much like many other minority groups in this nation. But you can only string along a community so long before apathy prevails and they stop donating, stop volunteering, and maybe even stop bothering to participate at a federal level.
At least have the decency of admitting that it sucks to defend anti-LGBTQ laws & policies in court, and that this is not ally ship. Especially when the most vulnerable members of our community will be disproportionately affected.
You get that response because nearly everyone on the forums has done this dance before, so there's not often a lot of willpower to go through it again when someone new joins the conversation. So sometimes people skip to the end of "yeah but you have to keep doing it because the other option is worse." It's not ideal, but it's not malicious
Also not everyone even on the forums agrees. Again, we've gone through this conversation a bunch of times
If people are tired of having to defend government officials who are doing bad things, they can simply stop defending them.
Yeah it’s not a winning recipe to meet increased barriers to voting with an apathy-inducing record
It’s an incredibly frustrating session because the only votes Dems need to enact the structural changes to give us a chance to either pass or preserve climate and equality legislation are their own and welp
I mean as of November I didn’t expect the senate anyway, the GA double-win was a blessing and curse for Dems- took the gavel from McConnell but ratcheted expectations way up
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Never said I was going to break my lifelong record of voting Dem (or the leftmost viable candidate), but it sure is telling that the response to talking about how it sucks that centrists aren't protecting the LGBTQ community and are in fact advocating for discrimination against us is the usual "there's no better option" rhetoric.
Believe me, we know. We know the DNC assumes are votes are locked because they aren't as shit as the GOP and won't bother actually fighting for is, much like many other minority groups in this nation. But you can only string along a community so long before apathy prevails and they stop donating, stop volunteering, and maybe even stop bothering to participate at a federal level.
At least have the decency of admitting that it sucks to defend anti-LGBTQ laws & policies in court, and that this is not ally ship. Especially when the most vulnerable members of our community will be disproportionately affected.
You get that response because nearly everyone on the forums has done this dance before, so there's not often a lot of willpower to go through it again when someone new joins the conversation. So sometimes people skip to the end of "yeah but you have to keep doing it because the other option is worse." It's not ideal, but it's not malicious
Also not everyone even on the forums agrees. Again, we've gone through this conversation a bunch of times
If people are tired of having to defend government officials who are doing bad things, they can simply stop defending them.
Then the question is
Is ANYONE doing it right, and how do we foster that?
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
"We've talked about this before so don't bother" is a pretty hideous take.
Some of us see running the US government as a process involving numerous countervailing forces and considerations and some of us think of it more like a twitter account where saying the correct thing most vociferously is what counts. These two positions don't have a lot of common ground for discussion.
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Also, you can see that we love interpreting each others' posts in the worst possible light. This is a pretty common pattern, and also hurts healthy discussion here, but no real solution for it that I can see any of us doing unfortunately.
Never said I was going to break my lifelong record of voting Dem (or the leftmost viable candidate), but it sure is telling that the response to talking about how it sucks that centrists aren't protecting the LGBTQ community and are in fact advocating for discrimination against us is the usual "there's no better option" rhetoric.
Believe me, we know. We know the DNC assumes are votes are locked because they aren't as shit as the GOP and won't bother actually fighting for is, much like many other minority groups in this nation. But you can only string along a community so long before apathy prevails and they stop donating, stop volunteering, and maybe even stop bothering to participate at a federal level.
At least have the decency of admitting that it sucks to defend anti-LGBTQ laws & policies in court, and that this is not ally ship. Especially when the most vulnerable members of our community will be disproportionately affected.
"We've talked about this before so don't bother" is a pretty hideous take.
Some of us see running the US government as a process involving numerous countervailing forces and considerations and some of us think of it more like a twitter account where saying the correct thing most vociferously is what counts. These two positions don't have a lot of common ground for discussion.
How many of y’all are actually under threat of getting the boot on your face as you pontificate about the numerous countervailing forces and your ostensible allies do jack to actually help, but are more than happy to co-opt decades of your community’s work and activism as their own accomplishments?
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
Yes, but unironically
In a democracy, "the other guy" will occasionally win. This is a problem in a country with one sane and one insane party.
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
Or because other older Democrats from a different party consensus did something a newer Democrat undid. While also ignoring that what the previous Democrat did was generally still an improvement over what came before. This is very much "Sure, but what did Obama do for me?" meme territory.
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
Democratic accomplishments don’t merit credit because the biggest ones weren’t done by the party, but instead fought tooth and nail by the actual folks on the ground who barely managed to survive our insane court system to be recognized as having equal rights.
Who promptly get forgotten as the credit gets applied to everyone’s favorite political idol of the moment
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
Yes, but unironically
In a democracy, "the other guy" will occasionally win. This is a problem in a country with one sane and one insane party.
A brief half hearted change thats swiftly reverted and then has to be fought for again inmediately isnt a particularly strong counter example to the point about Democrats being poor allies.
The whole concept of "merit credit" confuses me. What does it matter? What does it even mean? How is it not as gross as it seems on first blush?
It sure is really demotivating to vote for a party that constantly fails to deliver on their promises to the LGBTQ community just because they'll be a slightly slower slide into fascism for the nation. Especially when said party ends up defending bigotry in court, the only place we've seen significant federal improvement of LGBTQ rights.
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
Yes, but unironically
In a democracy, "the other guy" will occasionally win. This is a problem in a country with one sane and one insane party.
A brief half hearted change thats swiftly reverted and then has to be fought for again inmediately isnt a particularly strong counter example to the point about Democrats being poor allies.
The whole concept of "merit credit" confuses me. What does it matter? What does it even mean? How is it not as gross as it seems on first blush?
The actual lives who struggled against a society that brutalized them their entire lives don’t matter, only the feelings of Political Celebrities who appropriated the struggle of queer folks
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
I think gay rights activists have done impressive and heroic work the last 2 decades or so. I dont think any political party deserves to share in that glory
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
It is not a uniquely American problem, unfortunately. This thread is about rights in the US, but what we really need is to make people better.
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
Shryke, Stonewall was in the 70s.
“Fast” the “flip around” was not
Lanz, in 2004 gay marriage was still a major plank for turning out votes. Like I literally said. The flip has been extremely fast and it's happened within the last 15-20 years.
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
Shryke, Stonewall was in the 70s.
“Fast” the “flip around” was not
Lanz, in 2004 gay marriage was still a major plank for turning out votes. Like I literally said. The flip has been extremely fast and it's happened within the last 15-20 years.
I am well aware of the history of the LGBT movement, Shryke. Your attempting to boil it down to GOP vs Dem power struggles on the other hand betrays a lack of awareness on your part, however
Also DADT and DOMA don’t count when you’re the ones who instituted them to begin with
“Why aren’t I getting credit for putting out the house fire.”
“Because you set it.”
“Yes, but I still put it out.”
Why not? Parties change over time. The party that supported DADT (which was an improvement over existing policy at the time, which was a complete ban) became a different party that supported different things. The modern Republicans don't get no fucking credit for Lincoln, as an obvious example of the same issue.
Also DADT and DOMA don’t count when you’re the ones who instituted them to begin with
“Why aren’t I getting credit for putting out the house fire.”
“Because you set it.”
“Yes, but I still put it out.”
Why not? Parties change over time. The party that supported DADT (which was an improvement over existing policy at the time, which was a complete ban) became a different party that supported different things. The modern Republicans don't get no fucking credit for Lincoln, as an obvious example of the same issue.
Shryke if you set my house on fire, and put it out, I am not going to thank you for it.
If you set me on fire, and then put out the fire, I am going to do even less than thank you for it.
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
Shryke, Stonewall was in the 70s.
“Fast” the “flip around” was not
Lanz, in 2004 gay marriage was still a major plank for turning out votes. Like I literally said. The flip has been extremely fast and it's happened within the last 15-20 years.
I am well aware of the history of the LGBT movement, Shryke. Your attempting to boil it down to GOP vs Dem power struggles on the other hand betrays a lack of awareness on your part, however
No I'm not. We were talking about the voting public, as you can easily see from the quote at the top of the quote tree. Stabbity Style's post is about the wider electorate. And the wider electorate has shifted dramatically on these issues over the past few decades, as I pointed out.
Also DADT and DOMA don’t count when you’re the ones who instituted them to begin with
“Why aren’t I getting credit for putting out the house fire.”
“Because you set it.”
“Yes, but I still put it out.”
Why not? Parties change over time. The party that supported DADT (which was an improvement over existing policy at the time, which was a complete ban) became a different party that supported different things. The modern Republicans don't get no fucking credit for Lincoln, as an obvious example of the same issue.
Shryke if you set my house on fire, and put it out, I am not going to thank you for it.
If you set me on fire, and then put out the fire, I am going to do even less than thank you for it.
Except we're not talking about the same person. Hence why the GOP doesn't get to take credit for Lincoln. Parties change over time.
The fundamental issue is that Americans suck and get a government that represents them, which also sucks. Progressives make up what, 1/4 or so of the electorate? You're dealing with 3/4 of the country that is at best apathetic to and at worst actively hostile towards progressive politics, including LGBT issues. I don't know what can be done to make American suck less, to be honest. It's a problem that's beyond me. Certainly social movements have moved things to the left gradually, most notably the LGBT acceptance movement in recent history. But even that's not a silver bullet, after seeing all of the social movement with BLM the past year and not really seeing anything of note coming from it. The best I can do personally is vote for the rad people in the primaries and then whomever sucks the least in the general, which is pretty much always going to be a Democrat. I guess one of the bigger issues here specifically is whether complaining about Democrats not being progressives incentivizes people not to vote at all, which idk if I could answer.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
Shryke, Stonewall was in the 70s.
“Fast” the “flip around” was not
Lanz, in 2004 gay marriage was still a major plank for turning out votes. Like I literally said. The flip has been extremely fast and it's happened within the last 15-20 years.
I am well aware of the history of the LGBT movement, Shryke. Your attempting to boil it down to GOP vs Dem power struggles on the other hand betrays a lack of awareness on your part, however
No I'm not. We were talking about the voting public, as you can easily see from the quote at the top of the quote tree. Stabbity Style's post is about the wider electorate. And the wider electorate has shifted dramatically on these issues over the past few decades, as I pointed out.
And it literally elides the culmination of generations worth of political struggle and activism, which is why I’m taking you to task over it
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Because it comes across as equivocation, especially when you start bemoaning how hard it is to get people through Congress.
Biden has repeatedly declared what an LGBT ally he is. He’s the one who nominated Garland to the AG seat. And Garland is so far allowing this shitshow to run its course
At some point, either you (the people with power) do the work of being an ally, or you don’t get to call yourself one any longer and we get to point out what a fraud you are and how you don’t actually give a meaningful fuck about us beyond the rhetoric you think will get you votes while leaving us to fight on our own when it counts
And then it gets to SCOTUS who rule in favor of the people the DOJ is trying to keep out of the case. With the current make up of the court I think we can agree that it would be bad and would extend much farther than just saying what these schools did was ok, possibly going as far as throwing out Title IX completely.
This fucking sucks and I really do wish the world were different, but doing what you are suggesting would be more hurtful in the end, possibly in irreparable ways when considering the ability of Congress to pass a law in response to the ruling.
With 5 loaded chambers
It's demotivating to belong to a country that constantly fails to deliver on its promises of democracy and equal rights.
You can always vote for the other guys, or for an unelectable party.
Or just not vote.
Believe me, we know. We know the DNC assumes are votes are locked because they aren't as shit as the GOP and won't bother actually fighting for is, much like many other minority groups in this nation. But you can only string along a community so long before apathy prevails and they stop donating, stop volunteering, and maybe even stop bothering to participate at a federal level.
At least have the decency of admitting that it sucks to defend anti-LGBTQ laws & policies in court, and that this is not ally ship. Especially when the most vulnerable members of our community will be disproportionately affected.
You get that response because nearly everyone on the forums has done this dance before, so there's not often a lot of willpower to go through it again when someone new joins the conversation. So sometimes people skip to the end of "yeah but you have to keep doing it because the other option is worse." It's not ideal, but it's not malicious
Also not everyone even on the forums agrees. Again, we've gone through this conversation a bunch of times
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If people are tired of having to defend government officials who are doing bad things, they can simply stop defending them.
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It’s an incredibly frustrating session because the only votes Dems need to enact the structural changes to give us a chance to either pass or preserve climate and equality legislation are their own and welp
I mean as of November I didn’t expect the senate anyway, the GA double-win was a blessing and curse for Dems- took the gavel from McConnell but ratcheted expectations way up
Then the question is
Is ANYONE doing it right, and how do we foster that?
Aside from repealing DADT, ending DOMA, expanding antidiscrimination labor protections to include gender identity under Obama's EO 13672 and 13673 (revoked by Trump, reinstated by Biden), expanding medical rights for gay partners at hospitals accepting Medicare/Medicaid funds via HHS rules (again, revoked under Trump and reinstated under Biden), passed the Matthew Shepard Act, removed the Gay and Trans Panic Defense at State levels for 13 States, ended the ban on trans service members in the Armed Forces (again, revoked by Trump and reinstated by Biden), and introduced numerous bills beyond the above at the Federal level that have failed due almost solely to Republican opposition. And I know I am overlooking a lot. Especially at the State level. Virginia basically jumped ahead 40 years after Democrats flipped the Statehouse last year. This feels like a retread of the whole 'what the fuck has Obama done?' meme.
Some of us see running the US government as a process involving numerous countervailing forces and considerations and some of us think of it more like a twitter account where saying the correct thing most vociferously is what counts. These two positions don't have a lot of common ground for discussion.
DADT and DOMA were created by Clinton, who is a Democrat. Also, those EOs aren't nearly as compelling as you think because they were revoked by Trump and restored by Biden meaning they'll only last until the next GOP president.
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We need to call it out for what it is
Political hostage taking
How many of y’all are actually under threat of getting the boot on your face as you pontificate about the numerous countervailing forces and your ostensible allies do jack to actually help, but are more than happy to co-opt decades of your community’s work and activism as their own accomplishments?
Democratic accomplishments don't merit credit because sometimes Republicans win elections and undo them.
Yes, but unironically
In a democracy, "the other guy" will occasionally win. This is a problem in a country with one sane and one insane party.
You could add in all the stuff about voter disenfranchisement and suppression and how the entire system is designed to give conservatives a disproportionate amount of power, but even without that you're looking at the fundamental problem that Americans just kinda suck.
Or because other older Democrats from a different party consensus did something a newer Democrat undid. While also ignoring that what the previous Democrat did was generally still an improvement over what came before. This is very much "Sure, but what did Obama do for me?" meme territory.
Democratic accomplishments don’t merit credit because the biggest ones weren’t done by the party, but instead fought tooth and nail by the actual folks on the ground who barely managed to survive our insane court system to be recognized as having equal rights.
Who promptly get forgotten as the credit gets applied to everyone’s favorite political idol of the moment
A brief half hearted change thats swiftly reverted and then has to be fought for again inmediately isnt a particularly strong counter example to the point about Democrats being poor allies.
The whole concept of "merit credit" confuses me. What does it matter? What does it even mean? How is it not as gross as it seems on first blush?
The actual lives who struggled against a society that brutalized them their entire lives don’t matter, only the feelings of Political Celebrities who appropriated the struggle of queer folks
“Why aren’t I getting credit for putting out the house fire.”
“Because you set it.”
“Yes, but I still put it out.”
Even within that context the flip on gay rights has probably been one of the fastest changes on social issues ever. Maybe the fastest. In 2004 banning gay marriage was a major part of republican turnout strategy. In 2008 Democratic national candidates were wishy-washy at best on the issue. If the american electorate kinda sucks, it still sucks a lot less then it did only 15 years ago.
Shryke, Stonewall was in the 70s.
“Fast” the “flip around” was not
It is not a uniquely American problem, unfortunately. This thread is about rights in the US, but what we really need is to make people better.
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Lanz, in 2004 gay marriage was still a major plank for turning out votes. Like I literally said. The flip has been extremely fast and it's happened within the last 15-20 years.
I am well aware of the history of the LGBT movement, Shryke. Your attempting to boil it down to GOP vs Dem power struggles on the other hand betrays a lack of awareness on your part, however
Why not? Parties change over time. The party that supported DADT (which was an improvement over existing policy at the time, which was a complete ban) became a different party that supported different things. The modern Republicans don't get no fucking credit for Lincoln, as an obvious example of the same issue.
Shryke if you set my house on fire, and put it out, I am not going to thank you for it.
If you set me on fire, and then put out the fire, I am going to do even less than thank you for it.
No I'm not. We were talking about the voting public, as you can easily see from the quote at the top of the quote tree. Stabbity Style's post is about the wider electorate. And the wider electorate has shifted dramatically on these issues over the past few decades, as I pointed out.
Except we're not talking about the same person. Hence why the GOP doesn't get to take credit for Lincoln. Parties change over time.
And it literally elides the culmination of generations worth of political struggle and activism, which is why I’m taking you to task over it