They could have used a referendum to pick between IRV and proportional representation. Or use proportional. Or actually try anything.
The last 2007 referendum on the matter, at least in Ontario, resulted in FPTP sticking around, and I don't think that the result would be any different.
They could have used a referendum to pick between IRV and proportional representation. Or use proportional. Or actually try anything.
The last 2007 referendum on the matter, at least in Ontario, resulted in FPTP sticking around, and I don't think that the result would be any different.
That's why you don't put FPTP as an option. IRV or MMP.
They could have used a referendum to pick between IRV and proportional representation. Or use proportional. Or actually try anything.
One of the lessons of Brexit is don't hold a referendum when one of the outcomes is a catastrophe. The Liberals had to choose between capitulating to the NDP, unilaterally changing the electoral system, or scrapping reform entirely. I can't really blame them for choosing the latter.
I resemble this remark. I would rather vote NDP, but I live in a conservative stronghold. NDP doesn't stand a chance, so Liberal is really the only choice I have.
They could have used a referendum to pick between IRV and proportional representation. Or use proportional. Or actually try anything.
But they didn't want proportional representation. They wanted ranked choice.
Just like the NDP could have backed ranked choice and joined the Liberals and maybe that would have convinced the Liberals to go for it.
But in both cases neither party was going to agree to that because they both lose seats under the other party's preferred system.
So they lied, yeah?
Because that was never the deal they proposed
Lying implies they never intended to do it in the first place. I don't think that's the case. What I would say is that:
1) The Liberals wanted ranked ballot to avoid vote-split issues and with the expectation that they'd benefit as the center party.
2) The NDP wanted proportional representation because... it's kind of been their thing for an age and a half.
3) There was an actual opportunity to work out a deal, but it was an uphill slog because when you pass a bill you have to pick a system and not just generic "reform". Still, there was probably a chance for someone to either be persuaded to change their mind, or accept a compromise.
What I don't know is how much of the commission's collapse was a genuine preference on the part of the NDP (i.e. believing FPTP is better than ranked ballot - which would pretty clearly establish the current system as the most popular one, being everyone's first or second choice) and how much was them getting greedy and thinking they could force a majority government to implement a plan they don't like.
In a sense, it was a beautiful political strategy - torpedo vote reform and you get to blame the other guy for it.
...But in both cases neither party was going to agree to that because they both lose seats under the other party's preferred system.
I don't think the NDP would have lost seats under IRV - the number of ridings where want-to-be-Liberal voters swallow their hopes and dreams and vote NDP are far outnumbered by the opposite situation. They just wouldn't gain as much as the Liberals.
I know some people were worried (or excited) that IRV would usher in perpetual Liberal rule and sideline the NDP, but I think things would have shaken out okay.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
...But in both cases neither party was going to agree to that because they both lose seats under the other party's preferred system.
I don't think the NDP would have lost seats under IRV - the number of ridings where want-to-be-Liberal voters swallow their hopes and dreams and vote NDP are far outnumbered by the opposite situation. They just wouldn't gain as much as the Liberals.
I know some people were worried (or excited) that IRV would usher in perpetual Liberal rule and sideline the NDP, but I think things would have shaken out okay.
Liberal rule and sidelined NDP is where we are currently though
...But in both cases neither party was going to agree to that because they both lose seats under the other party's preferred system.
I don't think the NDP would have lost seats under IRV - the number of ridings where want-to-be-Liberal voters swallow their hopes and dreams and vote NDP are far outnumbered by the opposite situation. They just wouldn't gain as much as the Liberals.
I know some people were worried (or excited) that IRV would usher in perpetual Liberal rule and sideline the NDP, but I think things would have shaken out okay.
I think the NDP absolutely believed it would prevent them from ever getting close to a majority. Whether that's true or not is hard to tell for sure obviously.
And the situation with ranked choice is I think not what you describe exactly. It's that many people believe the Liberals are always somewhere on the list for a huge swath of voters. That they are essentially the "default party" that most people are willing to put on their rankings somewhere. That most likely what happens in a lot of places is that if the Liberals aren't knocked out right away, whatever other major party is sees their votes mostly flow to the Liberals. This is I think certainly what the Liberal Party thinks will happen, which is why they push the idea.
...But in both cases neither party was going to agree to that because they both lose seats under the other party's preferred system.
I don't think the NDP would have lost seats under IRV - the number of ridings where want-to-be-Liberal voters swallow their hopes and dreams and vote NDP are far outnumbered by the opposite situation. They just wouldn't gain as much as the Liberals.
I know some people were worried (or excited) that IRV would usher in perpetual Liberal rule and sideline the NDP, but I think things would have shaken out okay.
I think the NDP absolutely believed it would prevent them from ever getting close to a majority. Whether that's true or not is hard to tell for sure obviously.
And the situation with ranked choice is I think not what you describe exactly. It's that many people believe the Liberals are always somewhere on the list for a huge swath of voters. That they are essentially the "default party" that most people are willing to put on their rankings somewhere. That most likely what happens in a lot of places is that if the Liberals aren't knocked out right away, whatever other major party is sees their votes mostly flow to the Liberals. This is I think certainly what the Liberal Party thinks will happen, which is why they push the idea.
Well, the alternative is that the Liberals aren't as popular as they think they are and their election results are just "the wrong lizard might get in", so to speak. In that case with a ranked ballot the Liberals are eliminated first and the NDP / CPC fight it out. If this is actually the case then implementing it would probably have meant PM Singh right now.
I assume that the parties will change in some ways if and when we change the system, though - ranked ballot would not lead to endless Liberals governments any more than PR would necessarily put the Liberals in every government (median vote in just about every election).
Liberal rule and sidelined NDP is where we are currently though
The NDP seem quite proud that they have been able to pull the Liberals leftwards in the current government; isn't that why many here express hope that the results of this election is another Liberal minority? (As far as realistic hopes go.)
I suppose I should have said that the fear of IRV would be perpetual Liberal majorities.
Long before the election announcements, I saw quite a few PPC signs, alongside the ‘stop the lockdown’. In fact, the number of those signs still outnumber all other party signs. It’s concerning, but seeing as we usually go PC, I can only hope those two parties rip each other to shreds.
The fallout from the Halifax homeless removals continues and is depressing. Basically every member of the government responsible for either the area, the file, the police are completely abdicating their duties and it's fucking infuriating. If they had any other job outside of politics/policing they'd be canned immediately for incompetence.
Saying protestors were armed (they were not). Saying the 10 yo girl that got pepper-sprayed "shouldn't have been there" despite the fact that she was just walking home from a Tim Hortons with her father. Saying that 2 officers were injured but leaving out the fact that one was hit by one of their own police cruisers and the other pepper-sprayed himself. Cops fucking suck.
ArcticLancerBest served chilled.Registered Userregular
Thanks, was coming here to post the article myself.
It's an impressive barrage of outright lies, and if it manages to "just blow over" I struggle to think of what can actually ever be done when the situation is this strikingly clear. Can't say I've ever quite so strongly felt "Fuck the police" running through my veins, but they do it to themselves, man.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
If was trivial to break the deadlock. Trudeau did not even try.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
[SNIP]
54% of the Commons on the back of 40% of the vote. I can see why they wanted to get the NDP (13% on 20%) to back them on this change, as it is a huge deal.
As @mrondeau noted they didn't seem to do enough to try to get the NDP on board, but I think it's reasonable that they didn't just ram through IRV on their own.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
If was trivial to break the deadlock. Trudeau did not even try.
If you want a cross-party consensus and it becomes clear that you're not going to get one then giving up is the correct move. As it turns out, pretty much everyone is OK with FPTP, so here we are.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
The 60% of the population that didn’t vote Liberal would be pretty upset if the Liberals changed election laws to benefit themselves.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
OK, then I apologize. That's a perfectly consistent position.
I wouldn't have minded that either, in the sense that you get that outcome even if it annoys some people who wanted PR... but I don't think I can ignore the implications of adopting the American "party in power changes the rules to keep itself in power" strategy either. That's a really ugly can of worms there.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
The 60% of the population that didn’t vote Liberal would be pretty upset if the Liberals changed election laws to benefit themselves.
That's the thing... They kept FPTP... The system that currently benefits them.
Most other systems would make it so minority governments are way more common.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
The 60% of the population that didn’t vote Liberal would be pretty upset if the Liberals changed election laws to benefit themselves.
That's the thing... They kept FPTP... The system that currently benefits them.
Most other systems would make it so minority governments are way more common.
FPTP benefits coalition parties like the PC Reform Alliance.
MWO: Adamski
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ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
If was trivial to break the deadlock. Trudeau did not even try.
If you want a cross-party consensus and it becomes clear that you're not going to get one then giving up is the correct move. As it turns out, pretty much everyone is OK with FPTP, so here we are.
Most people are OK with FPTP only because they don't understand how terrible a system it is, and are unaware of other options.
FPTP *is* democracy to most people. To say that we should change doesn't make much sense to the layperson, because we are already a democracy, why would we change that?
Just use a fucking referendum to get voters to pick the system between the LPC preferred system and the NDP preferred system.
Simple. Democratic.
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
Just use a fucking referendum to get voters to pick the system between the LPC preferred system and the NDP preferred system.
Simple. Democratic.
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
So the whole commission was pointless, since the LPC was planning to impose their preference from the start and did not care what the other parties wanted.
I would have preferred the LPC implemented what they wanted and used the majority we gave them. I understand why they didn't but I was/am still pissed about it.
I'm unlikely to believe them on election reform ever again or at least not in the short term because of it.
To address the "What about the 60% who didn't vote liberal!" feedback, that's not top of my concern. My concern is reducing the possibility that the insane CPC can govern to near zero. FPTP continues to give them too high a chance.
Just use a fucking referendum to get voters to pick the system between the LPC preferred system and the NDP preferred system.
Simple. Democratic.
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
So the whole commission was pointless, since the LPC was planning to impose their preference from the start and did not care what the other parties wanted.
I'm not sure how you can square that with abandoning reform after it failed. But I suppose any future commissions are going to be pointless, since the last one was a purely - and openly - partisan affair.
Calling it "lying" is a grey area, because the phrase "to lie" implies explicit deception. I say I'm going to do X, but I know full well I will never do X. Do I think Trudeau at the time genuinely wanted to pass election reform? Yeah, I do. That he gave it a limp ass try and gave up is some real solid garbage.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
The 60% of the population that didn’t vote Liberal would be pretty upset if the Liberals changed election laws to benefit themselves.
Seriously. There is something I would hope very obviously fucked up about going "this broken election system gave me a majority without wining a majority of the votes so I'm going to use it to unilaterally change that election system based upon the legitimacy of my election under a system we are already all saying is broken". Especially when everyone's assumption is that said reform would most benefit your own party.
Just use a fucking referendum to get voters to pick the system between the LPC preferred system and the NDP preferred system.
Simple. Democratic.
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
So the whole commission was pointless, since the LPC was planning to impose their preference from the start and did not care what the other parties wanted.
I'm not sure how you can square that with abandoning reform after it failed. But I suppose any future commissions are going to be pointless, since the last one was a purely - and openly - partisan affair.
It didn't fail, it merely returned a result the LPC didn't want.
Just use a fucking referendum to get voters to pick the system between the LPC preferred system and the NDP preferred system.
Simple. Democratic.
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
So the whole commission was pointless, since the LPC was planning to impose their preference from the start and did not care what the other parties wanted.
I'm not sure how you can square that with abandoning reform after it failed. But I suppose any future commissions are going to be pointless, since the last one was a purely - and openly - partisan affair.
It didn't fail, it merely returned a result the LPC didn't want.
It failed in that it did not return a clear consensus on what the parties could agree on.
I would have preferred the LPC implemented what they wanted and used the majority we gave them. I understand why they didn't but I was/am still pissed about it.
I'm unlikely to believe them on election reform ever again or at least not in the short term because of it.
To address the "What about the 60% who didn't vote liberal!" feedback, that's not top of my concern. My concern is reducing the possibility that the insane CPC can govern to near zero. FPTP continues to give them too high a chance.
This, right here, is why I supported Trudeau dumping the electoral reform, even if I would have preferred if it had occurred. It is absolutely, totally, in no uncertain terms unacceptable to implement a voting system with that kind of rhetoric. I too wish the conservatives would never again form a government, but blocking them from all hope of political power is completely abhorrent.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2021
Aw man, Lisa Laco of CBC Radio and Thunder Bay passed away today.
Apparently she had ALS. I listened to so much CBC radio growing up and heard many of her interviews
Just use a fucking referendum to get voters to pick the system between the LPC preferred system and the NDP preferred system.
Simple. Democratic.
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
So the whole commission was pointless, since the LPC was planning to impose their preference from the start and did not care what the other parties wanted.
I'm not sure how you can square that with abandoning reform after it failed. But I suppose any future commissions are going to be pointless, since the last one was a purely - and openly - partisan affair.
It didn't fail, it merely returned a result the LPC didn't want.
It failed in that it did not return a clear consensus on what the parties could agree on.
In a parliamentary system that's why majority governments exist.... no?
did all three parties agree on every single piece of legislation that was passed during the harper majority? The LPL ran on passing voter reform. Not a specific form of voter reform.... No more FPTP.
I would have preferred the LPC implemented what they wanted and used the majority we gave them. I understand why they didn't but I was/am still pissed about it.
I'm unlikely to believe them on election reform ever again or at least not in the short term because of it.
To address the "What about the 60% who didn't vote liberal!" feedback, that's not top of my concern. My concern is reducing the possibility that the insane CPC can govern to near zero. FPTP continues to give them too high a chance.
This, right here, is why I supported Trudeau dumping the electoral reform, even if I would have preferred if it had occurred. It is absolutely, totally, in no uncertain terms unacceptable to implement a voting system with that kind of rhetoric. I too wish the conservatives would never again form a government, but blocking them from all hope of political power is completely abhorrent.
I love that folks are letting perfect be the enemy of good. Because the conservatives with their 30% of the vote sure don't have the same morals.
While I was very disappointed about electoral reform not happening, I also don't think that it's the kind of thing that should happen unilaterally. I don't want the trend of a complete electoral system overhaul every time a different party gets a majority.
I would have preferred the LPC implemented what they wanted and used the majority we gave them. I understand why they didn't but I was/am still pissed about it.
I'm unlikely to believe them on election reform ever again or at least not in the short term because of it.
To address the "What about the 60% who didn't vote liberal!" feedback, that's not top of my concern. My concern is reducing the possibility that the insane CPC can govern to near zero. FPTP continues to give them too high a chance.
This, right here, is why I supported Trudeau dumping the electoral reform, even if I would have preferred if it had occurred. It is absolutely, totally, in no uncertain terms unacceptable to implement a voting system with that kind of rhetoric. I too wish the conservatives would never again form a government, but blocking them from all hope of political power is completely abhorrent.
I love that folks are letting perfect be the enemy of good. Because the conservatives with their 30% of the vote sure don't have the same morals.
No, unilaterally changing election rules to the sole benefit of yourself is not good.
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The last 2007 referendum on the matter, at least in Ontario, resulted in FPTP sticking around, and I don't think that the result would be any different.
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That's why you don't put FPTP as an option. IRV or MMP.
One of the lessons of Brexit is don't hold a referendum when one of the outcomes is a catastrophe. The Liberals had to choose between capitulating to the NDP, unilaterally changing the electoral system, or scrapping reform entirely. I can't really blame them for choosing the latter.
I resemble this remark. I would rather vote NDP, but I live in a conservative stronghold. NDP doesn't stand a chance, so Liberal is really the only choice I have.
So they lied, yeah?
Because that was never the deal they proposed
Lying implies they never intended to do it in the first place. I don't think that's the case. What I would say is that:
1) The Liberals wanted ranked ballot to avoid vote-split issues and with the expectation that they'd benefit as the center party.
2) The NDP wanted proportional representation because... it's kind of been their thing for an age and a half.
3) There was an actual opportunity to work out a deal, but it was an uphill slog because when you pass a bill you have to pick a system and not just generic "reform". Still, there was probably a chance for someone to either be persuaded to change their mind, or accept a compromise.
What I don't know is how much of the commission's collapse was a genuine preference on the part of the NDP (i.e. believing FPTP is better than ranked ballot - which would pretty clearly establish the current system as the most popular one, being everyone's first or second choice) and how much was them getting greedy and thinking they could force a majority government to implement a plan they don't like.
In a sense, it was a beautiful political strategy - torpedo vote reform and you get to blame the other guy for it.
I don't think the NDP would have lost seats under IRV - the number of ridings where want-to-be-Liberal voters swallow their hopes and dreams and vote NDP are far outnumbered by the opposite situation. They just wouldn't gain as much as the Liberals.
I know some people were worried (or excited) that IRV would usher in perpetual Liberal rule and sideline the NDP, but I think things would have shaken out okay.
It's like being hunched over your toilet, throwing up a storm, and arguing over whether you have food poisoning, a hangover, or stomach flu. They are all completely different things that still result in the same symptom. But you're obviously not going to care about that mid hurl.
Liberal rule and sidelined NDP is where we are currently though
I think the NDP absolutely believed it would prevent them from ever getting close to a majority. Whether that's true or not is hard to tell for sure obviously.
And the situation with ranked choice is I think not what you describe exactly. It's that many people believe the Liberals are always somewhere on the list for a huge swath of voters. That they are essentially the "default party" that most people are willing to put on their rankings somewhere. That most likely what happens in a lot of places is that if the Liberals aren't knocked out right away, whatever other major party is sees their votes mostly flow to the Liberals. This is I think certainly what the Liberal Party thinks will happen, which is why they push the idea.
Well, the alternative is that the Liberals aren't as popular as they think they are and their election results are just "the wrong lizard might get in", so to speak. In that case with a ranked ballot the Liberals are eliminated first and the NDP / CPC fight it out. If this is actually the case then implementing it would probably have meant PM Singh right now.
I assume that the parties will change in some ways if and when we change the system, though - ranked ballot would not lead to endless Liberals governments any more than PR would necessarily put the Liberals in every government (median vote in just about every election).
The NDP seem quite proud that they have been able to pull the Liberals leftwards in the current government; isn't that why many here express hope that the results of this election is another Liberal minority? (As far as realistic hopes go.)
I suppose I should have said that the fear of IRV would be perpetual Liberal majorities.
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Dear Satan.....
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Saying protestors were armed (they were not). Saying the 10 yo girl that got pepper-sprayed "shouldn't have been there" despite the fact that she was just walking home from a Tim Hortons with her father. Saying that 2 officers were injured but leaving out the fact that one was hit by one of their own police cruisers and the other pepper-sprayed himself. Cops fucking suck.
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/gaslighting-halifax-how-the-mayor-a-councillor-and-the-chief-of-police-created-a-false-narrative-about-the-violent-eviction-of-rough-sleepers-from-city-parks/
It's an impressive barrage of outright lies, and if it manages to "just blow over" I struggle to think of what can actually ever be done when the situation is this strikingly clear. Can't say I've ever quite so strongly felt "Fuck the police" running through my veins, but they do it to themselves, man.
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
His statement was pretty clear: This will be the last election using FPTP if we win... He won a majority.
Saying it did not pass because blah blah blah is bullshit at that point. He won a majority government. He had the power and the literal mandate to effect change but did not because, like every government, they did not want to change the rules of the game that they won. There was no " we will work with the other parties to figure out a system etc etc etc...." His statement on social media and the debates was very black and white. When the studies came back and the proposed system was not in their favor they dropped it and blamed the other parties.... that were in a minority.
I truly don't get the apologists for JT on this issue. This was the major shift we needed in Canadian politics to get us out of the liberal/conservative/liberal/conservative merry-go-round we have been on for 50 years.
If Trudeau had unilaterally implemented his own plan you would have complained about that too.
If was trivial to break the deadlock. Trudeau did not even try.
54% of the Commons on the back of 40% of the vote. I can see why they wanted to get the NDP (13% on 20%) to back them on this change, as it is a huge deal.
As @mrondeau noted they didn't seem to do enough to try to get the NDP on board, but I think it's reasonable that they didn't just ram through IRV on their own.
If you want a cross-party consensus and it becomes clear that you're not going to get one then giving up is the correct move. As it turns out, pretty much everyone is OK with FPTP, so here we are.
He had a majority..... This is literally why they exist. He ran on the platform of enacting said change. No, I really would not have been angry.
The 60% of the population that didn’t vote Liberal would be pretty upset if the Liberals changed election laws to benefit themselves.
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OK, then I apologize. That's a perfectly consistent position.
I wouldn't have minded that either, in the sense that you get that outcome even if it annoys some people who wanted PR... but I don't think I can ignore the implications of adopting the American "party in power changes the rules to keep itself in power" strategy either. That's a really ugly can of worms there.
Simple. Democratic.
That's the thing... They kept FPTP... The system that currently benefits them.
Most other systems would make it so minority governments are way more common.
FPTP benefits coalition parties like the PC Reform Alliance.
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Most people are OK with FPTP only because they don't understand how terrible a system it is, and are unaware of other options.
FPTP *is* democracy to most people. To say that we should change doesn't make much sense to the layperson, because we are already a democracy, why would we change that?
This only works if you're willing to accept the NDP's system. Otherwise, I can absolutely see how less than a year after the Brexit vote, a guy from Quebec might not be interested in having it all come down to a referendum.
So the whole commission was pointless, since the LPC was planning to impose their preference from the start and did not care what the other parties wanted.
I'm unlikely to believe them on election reform ever again or at least not in the short term because of it.
To address the "What about the 60% who didn't vote liberal!" feedback, that's not top of my concern. My concern is reducing the possibility that the insane CPC can govern to near zero. FPTP continues to give them too high a chance.
I'm not sure how you can square that with abandoning reform after it failed. But I suppose any future commissions are going to be pointless, since the last one was a purely - and openly - partisan affair.
Seriously. There is something I would hope very obviously fucked up about going "this broken election system gave me a majority without wining a majority of the votes so I'm going to use it to unilaterally change that election system based upon the legitimacy of my election under a system we are already all saying is broken". Especially when everyone's assumption is that said reform would most benefit your own party.
It didn't fail, it merely returned a result the LPC didn't want.
It failed in that it did not return a clear consensus on what the parties could agree on.
This, right here, is why I supported Trudeau dumping the electoral reform, even if I would have preferred if it had occurred. It is absolutely, totally, in no uncertain terms unacceptable to implement a voting system with that kind of rhetoric. I too wish the conservatives would never again form a government, but blocking them from all hope of political power is completely abhorrent.
Apparently she had ALS. I listened to so much CBC radio growing up and heard many of her interviews
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In a parliamentary system that's why majority governments exist.... no?
did all three parties agree on every single piece of legislation that was passed during the harper majority? The LPL ran on passing voter reform. Not a specific form of voter reform.... No more FPTP.
I love that folks are letting perfect be the enemy of good. Because the conservatives with their 30% of the vote sure don't have the same morals.
No, unilaterally changing election rules to the sole benefit of yourself is not good.