Or better yet watch Iruma-kun, the very cute very fun show about a kid who has an inability to say no to any request given to him trying his best not to be literally eaten by his friends and teachers.
This just sounds like the kid from Xros Wars, except that had Digimon gattai mechs.
Or better yet watch Iruma-kun, the very cute very fun show about a kid who has an inability to say no to any request given to him trying his best not to be literally eaten by his friends and teachers.
This just sounds like the kid from Xros Wars, except that had Digimon gattai mechs.
Hell yeah, my idiocy lives on!
(watch the show it's good)
Chairman Meow on
+2
DHSChase lizards.....bark at donkeys..Registered Userregular
edited April 24
eh too salty.
point is i like the show, i don't care about if my point about not caring about cliches is itself cliched.
Chairman Meow on
"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
Apologies but I didn't mean to say that Iruma-kun specifically was subversive (I've not watched a frame of it), I was just generalizing because that's just a big schtick of modern isekai I really hate.
REALLY sorry for the confusion there.
well, to clarify, i was using the term kind of literally but it is a loaded term in the Red Letter Media kind of way. like, when I say it subverts some of the genre tropes, it makes them into clever jokes and then takes the implications serious when the story requires it while continuing to make jokes.
like, instead of having the protag's parents be tragically dead or missing, nah they were just jerks and sold him to a demon because they suck in comically extreme ways, but when that needs to have emotional weight it does. execution is what is clever not just that it was different.
it's not that it does tweak things but the way it does that makes it quality. obviously there is a lot of "subversion" that is just done to mask other shortcomings.
Chairman Meow on
"Grip 'em up, grip 'em, grip 'em good, said the Gryphon... to the pig."
I'm amazed something like that even made the list when there's at least a half dozen power fantasy isekais and like five idol shows this season. Corny, goofy Engrish hardly seems like that big a sin. It's probably the CGI. Or I don't know, everything else, because passable writing seems to be at a premium.
Side note, I was curious and hit Wikipedia, and apparently the drug store isekai this season that had a conversion therapy chapter in the manga decided to skip that. It has had multiple bits about inventing date rape drugs though.
I think Sonny Boy or Idaten would get my vote as the best of the season with the qualifier that neither are great. Definitely echoing other people here that it's a pretty bleh season unless you like idols or isekai power fantasies. Sonny Boy is more an exercise in trying to parse out surrealist nonsense each week, which is better than nothing. Idaten is like speedrunning generic shounen. Every episode drastically shifts the status quo, and it's juggling an ensemble cast pretty decently, but it's quite gratuitous and crass, and most of the time, the developments are very asspully, but at least it's one that changes things rather than an excuse to maintain the status quo, and none of them are egregiously stupid (eg like Wonder Egg's). Still, I know Mappa can do way the fuck better with a fighting show better than this.
Next season has a disturbing number of mecha shows, for what it's worth. Still not totally my jam, but better.
What feels to me like the worst part of this season isn't that most of the new shows aren't great, but that the returning shows that I was into feel like they're mostly a step down from their previous seasons.
Honestly, there are days where I feel the desire to "avoid cliches" and "subvert expectations" has done more to damage fiction than any amount of Mary Sues ever will.
I saw Girlfriend Girlfriend on some trash lists and don't see why.
It's not amazing, but it's funny and I like the characters. It's just a group of idiots trying to make a poly relationship work. It's nice to just chill with something dumb and funny.
Avoiding cliches quickly becomes something where you can predict entire works because they are trying to avoid cliches instead of just thinking about how well it would work for the story as a whole
Avoiding cliches quickly becomes something where you can predict entire works because they are trying to avoid cliches instead of just thinking about how well it would work for the story as a whole
And nine times out of ten, it's less avoiding cliches and more announcing that something is a cliche, that the characters are self-aware about it being a cliche, and then doing it anyway.
Chairman Meow on
+5
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 24
“The reason that clichés become clichés is that they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox of communication.” ― Terry Pratchett
“The reason that clichés become clichés is that they are the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox of communication.” ― Terry Pratchett
But that doesn't mean that you can just throw hammers and screwdrivers out there, announce that these are hammers and screwdrivers that other people have used to build neat things, and call it a day. Or should be using a hammer to saw a piece of wood. Or however else you want to torture this analogy into a painful death.
It's more that stories that resonate with people and are effectively told tend to have things in common because we have a shared cultural way of communicating, and means and values that are reflected in it. That something has shared cliched doesn't make it inherently bad, but it definitely doesn't make it inherently good either. Nor is the lack of them (or rejection of them) inherently a good or bad thing. Overtly announcing the cliches of a story or character is pretty rarely a sign of writing that actually understands what they are and how to use them though, and aping something superficially that you don't really understand why it works never turns out well.
Chairman Meow on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 24
No, it just means if a show is good it's good and the cliches have nothing to do with it one way or another.
I don't really have a side in this conversation because I haven't watched the show I just noticed people were saying "its cliche so its bad" or "its subverting cliche tho!" and it's like, cliches are just communication. This is like saying "it has dialogue". Everything has these things.
What's important is "is it good?"
Chairman Meow on
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 24
We all know what happens when you become focused on subversion
You get the final season of Game of Thrones
Chairman Meow on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited April 24
Nobody likes Sonny Boy but me?
Chairman Meow on
+1
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 24
Isekai is a kinda genius idea really. Take a person from our world, put it in a strange one. The reader doesn't have to struggle with figuring out how to relate to the characters in the other world because the main character does it for them. Done well it really works. Done badly, it's as bad as anything else done badly.
I know we use isekai for every fish out of water/stranger in a strange land story but like...really we should only use it for the "ten thousandth show where a potato goes to generic JRPG fantasy europe and is overpowered and teaches them how to make mayo or some shit."
When they go to fantasy europe and teach them how to make western food and they're all like "OH MY GOD ALL WE ATE WAS DIRT THANK YOUFOR TEACHING ME HOW TO MAKE A FUCKIN CROISSANT."
Chairman Meow on
+10
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Isekai is a kinda genius idea really. Take a person from our world, put it in a strange one. The reader doesn't have to struggle with figuring out how to relate to the characters in the other world because the main character does it for them. Done well it really works. Done badly, it's as bad as anything else done badly.
That's actually a bad thing. Isekai's use it as a lazy way for exposition instead of making it natural, and the "Oh it's like a video game!" is so fuckin lazy
Chairman Meow on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Considering Escaflowne came out over twenty years ago, I'm surprised there aren't other isekai that explore what happens if a historical figure got isekai'd before you, and you having to deal with the shit they started over there.
Chairman Meow on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Isekai is a kinda genius idea really. Take a person from our world, put it in a strange one. The reader doesn't have to struggle with figuring out how to relate to the characters in the other world because the main character does it for them. Done well it really works. Done badly, it's as bad as anything else done badly.
That's actually a bad thing. Isekai's use it as a lazy way for exposition instead of making it natural, and the "Oh it's like a video game!" is so fuckin lazy
Depends on the story and how quickly you want to get to the good stuff. Which if its a manga you want to already be there, with the readers on board, and knowing whats happening.
You say lazy, I say its just a form of in media res.
Not bad, just preferences.
My favourite science fiction story starts with about ten pages of explicit "this is not how it should be done" from the author exposition, to set up everything before it all gets fucking burnt to the ground over the course of the plot and it is glorious. He got it out of the way so you could get to the good stuff. It's very much of the old man around the campfire style, where the old man tells you what the story setup is and then he launches into the story.
Of course not all of them are like that. Yes a lot of them are lazy cash grabs. But not all of them. The idea is sound and is not even new, its just that most are doing it badly so that's all people see.
When they go to fantasy europe and teach them how to make western food and they're all like "OH MY GOD ALL WE ATE WAS DIRT THANK YOUFOR TEACHING ME HOW TO MAKE A FUCKIN CROISSANT."
AS A BAKING ENTHUSIAST, poor example. Croissants are a relatively recent invention and complicated as shit to make. You literally have to laminate bread with butter. No sane person would think to or want to do that on their own. They are a ridiculous pastry. Even croquembouches (towers of cream puffs held together with sugar) are less complicated to make and deal with. And were invented like a solid half century earlier than croissants.
Considering Escaflowne came out over twenty years ago, I'm surprised there aren't other isekai that explore what happens if a historical figure got isekai'd before you, and you having to deal with the shit they started over there.
Besides Fullmetal Alchemist? And Drifters.
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0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Considering Escaflowne came out over twenty years ago, I'm surprised there aren't other isekai that explore what happens if a historical figure got isekai'd before you, and you having to deal with the shit they started over there.
Besides Fullmetal Alchemist? And Drifters.
I don’t think you watch the same FMA as me.
Chairman Meow on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The world of Drifters is a typical high fantasy setting, that gets completely dunked on when some of the most dangerous humans in history start showing up to fight a magical proxy war.
"Oh dragons and monsters huh? Cute. Let's introduce to y'all some concepts of total war and really get cracking shall we?"
Drifters also has probably some of the more honest reactions to suddenly appearing in another world. NSFW audio.
Iruma-kun is very good. I would definitely put his character as cinnamon roll, not blank slate audience insert.
I'd say it barely qualifies as Isekai. It has none of the dragon quest trappings or similar hallmarks of a power fantasy.
The world is interesting and unique, as are the characters.
If anything it's about found family, rather than harem nonsense.
Also Iruma rarely solves a problem with magic super powers. He is just such a genuinely nice person that he wins over all but the most stubbron people he encounters and has only ever used big dawg magic to stop people from dying.
Chairman Meow on
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
+1
Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
Considering Escaflowne came out over twenty years ago, I'm surprised there aren't other isekai that explore what happens if a historical figure got isekai'd before you, and you having to deal with the shit they started over there.
Not quite the same thing, but you reminded me of Trusty Bell/Eternal Sonata. Which had Fredrick Chopin get isekai'd
Considering Escaflowne came out over twenty years ago, I'm surprised there aren't other isekai that explore what happens if a historical figure got isekai'd before you, and you having to deal with the shit they started over there.
Doesn't Overlord do this?
Well Mmo players not Historical figures
Chairman Meow on
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
0
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited April 24
Skimming the novel section of RightStuf just gives me a headache. They probably had to extend the coding for their line breaks, good lord.
Posts
This just sounds like the kid from Xros Wars, except that had Digimon gattai mechs.
Hell yeah, my idiocy lives on!
(watch the show it's good)
point is i like the show, i don't care about if my point about not caring about cliches is itself cliched.
well, to clarify, i was using the term kind of literally but it is a loaded term in the Red Letter Media kind of way. like, when I say it subverts some of the genre tropes, it makes them into clever jokes and then takes the implications serious when the story requires it while continuing to make jokes.
like, instead of having the protag's parents be tragically dead or missing, nah they were just jerks and sold him to a demon because they suck in comically extreme ways, but when that needs to have emotional weight it does. execution is what is clever not just that it was different.
it's not that it does tweak things but the way it does that makes it quality. obviously there is a lot of "subversion" that is just done to mask other shortcomings.
I'm amazed something like that even made the list when there's at least a half dozen power fantasy isekais and like five idol shows this season. Corny, goofy Engrish hardly seems like that big a sin. It's probably the CGI. Or I don't know, everything else, because passable writing seems to be at a premium.
Side note, I was curious and hit Wikipedia, and apparently the drug store isekai this season that had a conversion therapy chapter in the manga decided to skip that. It has had multiple bits about inventing date rape drugs though.
I think Sonny Boy or Idaten would get my vote as the best of the season with the qualifier that neither are great. Definitely echoing other people here that it's a pretty bleh season unless you like idols or isekai power fantasies. Sonny Boy is more an exercise in trying to parse out surrealist nonsense each week, which is better than nothing. Idaten is like speedrunning generic shounen. Every episode drastically shifts the status quo, and it's juggling an ensemble cast pretty decently, but it's quite gratuitous and crass, and most of the time, the developments are very asspully, but at least it's one that changes things rather than an excuse to maintain the status quo, and none of them are egregiously stupid (eg like Wonder Egg's). Still, I know Mappa can do way the fuck better with a fighting show better than this.
Next season has a disturbing number of mecha shows, for what it's worth. Still not totally my jam, but better.
Honestly, there are days where I feel the desire to "avoid cliches" and "subvert expectations" has done more to damage fiction than any amount of Mary Sues ever will.
It's not amazing, but it's funny and I like the characters. It's just a group of idiots trying to make a poly relationship work. It's nice to just chill with something dumb and funny.
And nine times out of ten, it's less avoiding cliches and more announcing that something is a cliche, that the characters are self-aware about it being a cliche, and then doing it anyway.
But that doesn't mean that you can just throw hammers and screwdrivers out there, announce that these are hammers and screwdrivers that other people have used to build neat things, and call it a day. Or should be using a hammer to saw a piece of wood. Or however else you want to torture this analogy into a painful death.
It's more that stories that resonate with people and are effectively told tend to have things in common because we have a shared cultural way of communicating, and means and values that are reflected in it. That something has shared cliched doesn't make it inherently bad, but it definitely doesn't make it inherently good either. Nor is the lack of them (or rejection of them) inherently a good or bad thing. Overtly announcing the cliches of a story or character is pretty rarely a sign of writing that actually understands what they are and how to use them though, and aping something superficially that you don't really understand why it works never turns out well.
I don't really have a side in this conversation because I haven't watched the show I just noticed people were saying "its cliche so its bad" or "its subverting cliche tho!" and it's like, cliches are just communication. This is like saying "it has dialogue". Everything has these things.
What's important is "is it good?"
You get the final season of Game of Thrones
That too can be a plus, since its familiar, they can get to the important parts of the story quickly.
It's like a super speedy exposition but you already know everything so they can just give you the cliffnotes.
I'd say it barely qualifies as Isekai. It has none of the dragon quest trappings or similar hallmarks of a power fantasy.
The world is interesting and unique, as are the characters.
If anything it's about found family, rather than harem nonsense.
When they go to fantasy europe and teach them how to make western food and they're all like "OH MY GOD ALL WE ATE WAS DIRT THANK YOUFOR TEACHING ME HOW TO MAKE A FUCKIN CROISSANT."
That's actually a bad thing. Isekai's use it as a lazy way for exposition instead of making it natural, and the "Oh it's like a video game!" is so fuckin lazy
Depends on the story and how quickly you want to get to the good stuff. Which if its a manga you want to already be there, with the readers on board, and knowing whats happening.
You say lazy, I say its just a form of in media res.
Not bad, just preferences.
My favourite science fiction story starts with about ten pages of explicit "this is not how it should be done" from the author exposition, to set up everything before it all gets fucking burnt to the ground over the course of the plot and it is glorious. He got it out of the way so you could get to the good stuff. It's very much of the old man around the campfire style, where the old man tells you what the story setup is and then he launches into the story.
Of course not all of them are like that. Yes a lot of them are lazy cash grabs. But not all of them. The idea is sound and is not even new, its just that most are doing it badly so that's all people see.
AS A BAKING ENTHUSIAST, poor example. Croissants are a relatively recent invention and complicated as shit to make. You literally have to laminate bread with butter. No sane person would think to or want to do that on their own. They are a ridiculous pastry. Even croquembouches (towers of cream puffs held together with sugar) are less complicated to make and deal with. And were invented like a solid half century earlier than croissants.
"OH MY GOD THANKYOU ALL WE ATE WAS DIRT" would have worked just as well I think.
Besides Fullmetal Alchemist? And Drifters.
I don’t think you watch the same FMA as me.
"Oh dragons and monsters huh? Cute. Let's introduce to y'all some concepts of total war and really get cracking shall we?"
Drifters also has probably some of the more honest reactions to suddenly appearing in another world. NSFW audio.
Also Iruma rarely solves a problem with magic super powers. He is just such a genuinely nice person that he wins over all but the most stubbron people he encounters and has only ever used big dawg magic to stop people from dying.
Not quite the same thing, but you reminded me of Trusty Bell/Eternal Sonata. Which had Fredrick Chopin get isekai'd
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
Well Mmo players not Historical figures
That said, this looks gorgeous, and I had no idea it got rereleased:
https://www.rightstufanime.com/El-Hazard-The-Magnificent-World-OVA-12-Collection-Blu-ray