jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited September 2021
It sucks that despite China actually being problematic, it's difficult to know what to believe about the country's actual actions filtered through American media, which has proven itself made up of 100% sensationalist rags from back to front.
Milley's fear that Trump could do something unpredictable came from experience. Right after Trump lost the election, Milley discovered the President had signed a military order to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by January 15, 2021, before he left the White House.
The memo had been secretly drafted by two Trump loyalists. No one on the national security team knew about it, according to the book. The memo was eventually nullified, but Milley could not forget that Trump had done an end run around his top military advisers.
Lots of other scary shit in here, like Milley discussing use of nuclear weapons and reminding everyone involved that they couldn't legally launch without SecDef and things like that.
I've heard so many different estimations on the value of Afghanistan's mineral wealth that I suspect its mostly made up.
Kind of like Iraq's anthrax stockpile.
Estimates are probably all over the place because doing a survey is both difficult for all the reasons explained in the post regarding why shipping it out is hard and largely pointless because of all the reasons in the post regarding why shipping it out is hard.
I've heard so many different estimations on the value of Afghanistan's mineral wealth that I suspect its mostly made up.
Kind of like Iraq's anthrax stockpile.
Estimates are probably all over the place because doing a survey is both difficult for all the reasons explained in the post regarding why shipping it out is hard and largely pointless because of all the reasons in the post regarding why shipping it out is hard.
Has to be mentioned that those same reasons also apply to the "Iranian pipeline to China" idea, that would also be the second largest oil pipeline in the world, if I'm correct. In other words, is also a non-starter.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Milley's fear that Trump could do something unpredictable came from experience. Right after Trump lost the election, Milley discovered the President had signed a military order to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by January 15, 2021, before he left the White House.
The memo had been secretly drafted by two Trump loyalists. No one on the national security team knew about it, according to the book. The memo was eventually nullified, but Milley could not forget that Trump had done an end run around his top military advisers.
Lots of other scary shit in here, like Milley discussing use of nuclear weapons and reminding everyone involved that they couldn't legally launch without SecDef and things like that.
Actually, he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. So it was not actually a legal order.
I've heard so many different estimations on the value of Afghanistan's mineral wealth that I suspect its mostly made up.
Kind of like Iraq's anthrax stockpile.
Again I will defer to the briefing I got as we sailed to Afghanistan as they quoted a lot of facts from the CIA fact book about the area as I remember one of the things they said {the book was really lacking as the entry for Afghanistan was really only 3 pages in the book at the time as I remember the government heading of Tribal-warlord listing} the book listed rare earth minerals {full extent unknown} As even though the US press talked a lot about the mineral wealth of the state will be used for rebuilding and a revenue generator. No surveys were done that I knew about but companies like Lynas and another I forgot about were the only non China mining companies in the world I really never found out if they were just sight seeing or doing anything other than seeing the crews
With Iraq even though I was deployed months after the start and well into the counter insurgency phase I made fun of the fact how many people I saw still sporting the gas mask bag
It was pretty obvious from the jump that was the case. Still, just horrendously evil shit. And there will be zero repercussions for murdering children and other innocent civilians
It took the entire world’s media attention on Afghanistan, an in-depth NYT story and extensive video footage of the victims *the morning of* for them to finally admit they killed civilians and lied about them being ISIS suicide bombers. Now imagine how many other times they lied.
Never give the government the benefit of the doubt. Always question them. Always demand better of them. History tells us we should do never do anything less.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
@Monwyn I want to make sure you are aware of this.
"lol I told you so" is not really productive discourse, duder.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
But the building wasn't the target, now was it? No, the drone strike targeted two vehicles. Any explosive material in the building that was detonated by the drone strike is still collateral damage caused by the drone strike.
But the building wasn't the target, now was it? No, the drone strike targeted two vehicles. Any explosive material in the building that was detonated by the drone strike is still collateral damage caused by the drone strike.
Is this a joke
No, I'm very serious about drone strikes killing civilians and the US government constantly downplaying, if not outright lying, about it.
The drone strike didn't kill civilians, the car bomb driven by terrorists hoping to kill far more civilians did
It can both be true that the US military droning a car and ISIS having a car bomb led to civilians deaths.
This is not a binary choice and we can place blame on both parties. The amount of blame may be debatable, but I see no reason that someone needs to forgo blaming one side just because the other is also at fault.
This is literally just yelling at the guy who pulls the lever in the trolley problem
@Monwyn I want to make sure you are aware of this.
"lol I told you so" is not really productive discourse, duder.
I think it's an important point, because it speaks to so much US foreign (and especially military) policy since 9/11. The hawkish narrative gets tons of response - we gotta go in and take them out, fuck yeah - but when it turns out to be based on unsubstantiated assumptions, half-truths or outright lies, the reaction is, "... meh", even if we're talking about people (especially in MENA) getting killed due to those untruths. So yes, I do think it is vitally important to keep making this point, because we're talking about a major reason why things have become this fucked up.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
Why do you people continue to treat mod posts as invitations for argument?
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Hey folks, just a reminder that the proper way to address something like this is to PM a mod and ask about it, because it is always entirely appropriate to ask questions and explain context.
In this particular case, it is possible that the post to which I responded was misinterpreted. Even if that is the case, though, it doesn't justify folks debating it in this thread.
Thank you and goodnight.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I hope at some point maybe not the country as a whole, but at least the people who pay more attention to the news at least can get over a reflexive belief when the government says "oh yeah this guy was a terrorist oh yeah there's biological weapons there there wasnt any choice" etc
Its been decades of both parties lying to us about all of this when it was their respective turns at power. Trust is madness.
Especially when it seems every bit of intel is from some goddamn drone or other form of shit ass aerial surveillance and not a single operative on the ground who can tell the difference apparently between explosives and a couple of men filling plastic jugs with water from a hose
All I could think of last night after the news was remembering the surviving family begging reporters, holding up pictures of the dead, “is this Daesh? Was he Daesh?!” After hearing the military’s bullshit excuse.
There has to be accountability over this. Our military murdered civilians
Especially when it seems every bit of intel is from some goddamn drone or other form of shit ass aerial surveillance and not a single operative on the ground who can tell the difference apparently between explosives and a couple of men filling plastic jugs with water from a hose
All I could think of last night after the news was remembering the surviving family begging reporters, holding up pictures of the dead, “is this Daesh? Was he Daesh?!” After hearing the military’s bullshit excuse.
There has to be accountability over this. Our military murdered civilians
The accountability would only be an official reprimand, in no world is an intelligence officer going to get criminally charged for acting on unclear information that the higher ups signed off on.
The only other accountability is in electing someone who has the power to change the situation and get the military out, or the situation changes so quickly due to this that the mission is untenable.
Nothing they did was illegal or unapproved, so the only punishment can be political.
It took the entire world’s media attention on Afghanistan, an in-depth NYT story and extensive video footage of the victims *the morning of* for them to finally admit they killed civilians and lied about them being ISIS suicide bombers. Now imagine how many other times they lied.
Never give the government the benefit of the doubt. Always question them. Always demand better of them. History tells us we should do never do anything less.
It's so fucking "great" that the people arguing no we shouldn't leave, we know what we're doing, why don't you trust us, had as their last act the authorization the murder of children and an aids worker. Literally someone working with the west to help those who need it. Loading up water to bring to families. And these "leaders", these "experts" we entrust to know when to use force, killed them all.
In a just world this would be shoved down their throats and brought up every fucking time they try to drum up any of this shit, and someone prosecuted (or fuck, even losing their job).
Drones good for surveillance, but surveillance is iffy. Case in point, the fake military assets constructed by ww2 forces and the fake military assets not destroyed by ww2 forces because they knew said forces were fake.
Beyond deception (which daesh is obviously practicing), data can be misinterpreted on an institutional and a personal level. Everything looks like a nail when you have a hammer, i.e. water jugs are obviously gasoline. That's institutional, personal is the targeting of political rivals by American regional allies to get ahead.
So, how does the American intelligence community actually target car bombers and terrorist cells accurately and without civilian casualties? The one thing the nation and the civilian world does not want them to do and the one thing that is logistically hardest to accomplish on a massive scale.
Boots on the ground and in the alleys, collecting and verifying data in person
Drones good for surveillance, but surveillance is iffy. Case in point, the fake military assets constructed by ww2 forces and the fake military assets not destroyed by ww2 forces because they knew said forces were fake.
Beyond deception (which daesh is obviously practicing), data can be misinterpreted on an institutional and a personal level. Everything looks like a nail when you have a hammer, i.e. water jugs are obviously gasoline. That's institutional, personal is the targeting of political rivals by American regional allies to get ahead.
So, how does the American intelligence community actually target car bombers and terrorist cells accurately and without civilian casualties? The one thing the nation and the civilian world does not want them to do and the one thing that is logistically hardest to accomplish on a massive scale.
Boots on the ground and in the alleys, collecting and verifying data in person
People on the ground, "american boots", would have the same biases and jump to the conclusion that every brown person is a potential terrorist. Maybe the solution was to not bomb city centers from orbit as the first option.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.
They're the Taliban, there's nothing to hope for or expected long term anything good from if you know who they are. It baffles me, this also happened when Trump tried to bring North Korea to heel. Insanity.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.
I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.
We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
edited September 2021
This is the "desire for a positive outcome without expectations of its fulfilment" sort of hope. It's basically synonymous with wishing, and given the alternative in terms of the ability of the average individual to affect the outcome is to not wish for a better outcome, most people go with the desire for an improvement over no desire for improvement, despite its unlikeliness. No one here thought there was much chance of it working out positively, but they expressed a desire for it to be otherwise, and demonstrated some reasons why it might, while also expressing doubt they actually would be. Or in short "I'd like things to be better, but know they will almost certainly not be."
Lord_Asmodeus on
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
Recently I've been doing a lot of reading on Iran and I have to say that the Biden approach to the Islamic Republic is one of the stupidest fucking blunders of his administration. His actions re. sanctions and the JCPOA are just reinforcing the Conservative position and power base in Iran, what a fucking joke.
Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.
I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.
We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
I don't remember any post like that to be honest.
Anyway they've been pretty open about the validity of amputations and executions the whole time. No one here thought the Taliban were suddenly liberals. The most optimistic hopes expressed were along the lines of "maybe they will allow a heavily gender segregated form of girls education like Saudi Arabia", "I hope their government includes some ethnic minority Taliban commanders", or "I don't think they will commit genocide."
I also don't really understand why execution is being regarded as beyond the pale for a government. I mean we're all aware that America executes people, right? As do many countries in the region. Doesn't make it less horrible but it's a pretty widespread problem.
I thought this AJE article was pretty interesting. There has been a lot of speculation about internal divisions within the Taliban, and about how the government they established represents a victory of their more hardline faction. This article confirms a lot of that, and is probably the best piece I've seen on internal Taliban politics.
A writer and reporter who has spent several years covering the Taliban said the divisions are the result of a political-military divide. The hardliners, he said, “feel that they are owed things for 20 years of fighting”.
A political source who has had a decades-long relationship with the Taliban’s top brass agrees.
The reporter, who wished to remain anonymous due to security reasons, said that leaders like Mullah Muhammad Yaqoob, the current defence minister and son of the group’s founder, Mullah Muhammad Omar, is one of the figures representing the hardline, military-focused faction of the Taliban.
Others, like Baradar and Sher Muhammad Abbas Stanikzai, the deputy minister of foreign affairs, represent the more politically minded branches who wanted to create a more inclusive state.
Many leaders of the hardline faction, who were arrested by Pakistan, are suspicious of Islamabad. Several of those have instead leaned towards supporting Iran.
Pretty interesting piece overall, but I'm also posting it to encourage more nuance in the discussion about the Taliban and their actions. Also, I found it intriguing that the more hardline factions tend to lean towards Iran over Pakistan.
Recently I've been doing a lot of reading on Iran and I have to say that the Biden approach to the Islamic Republic is one of the stupidest fucking blunders of his administration. His actions re. sanctions and the JCPOA are just reinforcing the Conservative position and power base in Iran, what a fucking joke.
You are assuming that the US gives a damn about making peace with Iran anymore, or the not-Israel parts of the Middle East.
Yeah they were called hopes not expectations, and everybody said they were a real long shot and they'd believe it when they saw it.
I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.
We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
I don't remember any post like that to be honest.
Anyway they've been pretty open about the validity of amputations and executions the whole time. No one here thought the Taliban were suddenly liberals. The most optimistic hopes expressed were along the lines of "maybe they will allow a heavily gender segregated form of girls education like Saudi Arabia", "I hope their government includes some ethnic minority Taliban commanders", or "I don't think they will commit genocide."
I also don't really understand why execution is being regarded as beyond the pale for a government. I mean we're all aware that America executes people, right? As do many countries in the region. Doesn't make it less horrible but it's a pretty widespread problem.
I think it’s pretty obvious there is a difference both in frequency, method, and sentencing in this case, making this a pretty useless comparison.
Not to mention that the us is not currently chopping off hands for theft.
Many people on this forum have a lot of issues with the death penalty in the United States.
I'm no fan of Americas death penalty but what they don't do is drag young girls to empty soccer stadiums to shoot them for reading Harry Potter. The Taliban do this. Both sides aren't the same.
Posts
Kind of like Iraq's anthrax stockpile.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.html
Lots of other scary shit in here, like Milley discussing use of nuclear weapons and reminding everyone involved that they couldn't legally launch without SecDef and things like that.
Estimates are probably all over the place because doing a survey is both difficult for all the reasons explained in the post regarding why shipping it out is hard and largely pointless because of all the reasons in the post regarding why shipping it out is hard.
Has to be mentioned that those same reasons also apply to the "Iranian pipeline to China" idea, that would also be the second largest oil pipeline in the world, if I'm correct. In other words, is also a non-starter.
Actually, he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. So it was not actually a legal order.
Again I will defer to the briefing I got as we sailed to Afghanistan as they quoted a lot of facts from the CIA fact book about the area as I remember one of the things they said {the book was really lacking as the entry for Afghanistan was really only 3 pages in the book at the time as I remember the government heading of Tribal-warlord listing} the book listed rare earth minerals {full extent unknown} As even though the US press talked a lot about the mineral wealth of the state will be used for rebuilding and a revenue generator. No surveys were done that I knew about but companies like Lynas and another I forgot about were the only non China mining companies in the world I really never found out if they were just sight seeing or doing anything other than seeing the crews
With Iraq even though I was deployed months after the start and well into the counter insurgency phase I made fun of the fact how many people I saw still sporting the gas mask bag
White House reporter for the Associated Press
@Monwyn I want to make sure you are aware of this.
Much like the entire invasion of Afghanistan
k
Never give the government the benefit of the doubt. Always question them. Always demand better of them. History tells us we should do never do anything less.
"lol I told you so" is not really productive discourse, duder.
Monwyn was particularly vehement about it at the time and aggressive in their phrasing.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
In this particular case, it is possible that the post to which I responded was misinterpreted. Even if that is the case, though, it doesn't justify folks debating it in this thread.
Thank you and goodnight.
Its been decades of both parties lying to us about all of this when it was their respective turns at power. Trust is madness.
All I could think of last night after the news was remembering the surviving family begging reporters, holding up pictures of the dead, “is this Daesh? Was he Daesh?!” After hearing the military’s bullshit excuse.
There has to be accountability over this. Our military murdered civilians
Haha haaaaaa.
Why would they start now?
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
The only other accountability is in electing someone who has the power to change the situation and get the military out, or the situation changes so quickly due to this that the mission is untenable.
Nothing they did was illegal or unapproved, so the only punishment can be political.
It's so fucking "great" that the people arguing no we shouldn't leave, we know what we're doing, why don't you trust us, had as their last act the authorization the murder of children and an aids worker. Literally someone working with the west to help those who need it. Loading up water to bring to families. And these "leaders", these "experts" we entrust to know when to use force, killed them all.
In a just world this would be shoved down their throats and brought up every fucking time they try to drum up any of this shit, and someone prosecuted (or fuck, even losing their job).
I'm so tired.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Beyond deception (which daesh is obviously practicing), data can be misinterpreted on an institutional and a personal level. Everything looks like a nail when you have a hammer, i.e. water jugs are obviously gasoline. That's institutional, personal is the targeting of political rivals by American regional allies to get ahead.
So, how does the American intelligence community actually target car bombers and terrorist cells accurately and without civilian casualties? The one thing the nation and the civilian world does not want them to do and the one thing that is logistically hardest to accomplish on a massive scale.
Boots on the ground and in the alleys, collecting and verifying data in person
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
People on the ground, "american boots", would have the same biases and jump to the conclusion that every brown person is a potential terrorist. Maybe the solution was to not bomb city centers from orbit as the first option.
One of the founders of the Taliban and the chief enforcer of its strict rule of Afghanistan during the 1990s says the group will once again carry out executions and amputations of hands, though perhaps not in public.
Source: AlJazeera
They're the Taliban, there's nothing to hope for or expected long term anything good from if you know who they are. It baffles me, this also happened when Trump tried to bring North Korea to heel. Insanity.
I hope the face-eating leopard party etc etc.
We also had plenty of people in here saying that any suggestion the taliban would re-enact these things was horrifically racist.
Anyway they've been pretty open about the validity of amputations and executions the whole time. No one here thought the Taliban were suddenly liberals. The most optimistic hopes expressed were along the lines of "maybe they will allow a heavily gender segregated form of girls education like Saudi Arabia", "I hope their government includes some ethnic minority Taliban commanders", or "I don't think they will commit genocide."
I also don't really understand why execution is being regarded as beyond the pale for a government. I mean we're all aware that America executes people, right? As do many countries in the region. Doesn't make it less horrible but it's a pretty widespread problem.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/23/how-deep-are-divisions-among-the-taliban
I thought this AJE article was pretty interesting. There has been a lot of speculation about internal divisions within the Taliban, and about how the government they established represents a victory of their more hardline faction. This article confirms a lot of that, and is probably the best piece I've seen on internal Taliban politics.
Pretty interesting piece overall, but I'm also posting it to encourage more nuance in the discussion about the Taliban and their actions. Also, I found it intriguing that the more hardline factions tend to lean towards Iran over Pakistan.
You are assuming that the US gives a damn about making peace with Iran anymore, or the not-Israel parts of the Middle East.
I think it’s pretty obvious there is a difference both in frequency, method, and sentencing in this case, making this a pretty useless comparison.
Not to mention that the us is not currently chopping off hands for theft.
I would go so far as to say do not use the United States as an example of a "civilized"enforcement of the death penalty.
I'm no fan of Americas death penalty but what they don't do is drag young girls to empty soccer stadiums to shoot them for reading Harry Potter. The Taliban do this. Both sides aren't the same.