Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Do you guys ever actually read news that isn't plastered all over tankie Twitter? Negotiations over immigration in return for Ukraine aid have been going on for months. There's been a deal in principle in the Senate since either late last year or early this year. The only new thing happening is Abbott defying a court order and Biden saying "you could have better border security right now if you'd just fucking vote for it."
While they’ve been transparent about why they’re derailing the deal, the excuse they’ll use while campaigning will be “why would we negotiate for this now when we can simply get everything we want once you elect Trump? Vote Trump!”
Even though I think frustrated republicans are correct that they will would have a harder time negotiating a similar bill with Trump in the White House under a mixed Congress. There was some reporting saying a handful of republicans were considering defecting in order to reach a deal, or at least continuing to negotiate under the table.
I will say that seeing Chris “we tried to organise a kind of coup” Murphy being put in the big chair for the immigration deal talks when those actions are exactly the kind of thing that drives up refugees from South America to the US border is another piece of irony mixed into all of this.
His objection being that the coup could have been run better, not that it was run.
Highlighting Republican hypocrisy has historically been ineffective but even if this time it might work there are probably ways to do so without making a lot of people’s lives a LOT worse
Some of the Republican demands on immigration are sensible. Most migrants without visas who cross at the southern border do not crawl through the desert. They find a Border Patrol agent and present an asylum claim. They must then pass what is called a “credible fear” interview. Republicans want to raise the threshold for what counts as credible fear. That is a reasonable aim. Under Mr Biden’s rules, a fear of gang violence counts as a ground for being let in. Contrast that with Spain, which rejects this test even though it has a socialist prime minister.
The a priori validity of asylum requirements doesn't matter. Too many people are coming in, therefore we must tighten requirements and send them back to be exploited or killed by gangs.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
Do you guys ever actually read news that isn't plastered all over tankie Twitter? Negotiations over immigration in return for Ukraine aid have been going on for months. There's been a deal in principle in the Senate since either late last year or early this year. The only new thing happening is Abbott defying a court order and Biden saying "you could have better border security right now if you'd just fucking vote for it."
This is a perfect example of not engaging in good faith. Of course people are aware of these negotiations. The Abbot thing isn't the only new thing and your lack of acknowledgement of that isn't our issue. It also doesn't mean that people can't be upset at the results of the negotiations either, and see the package Biden is going for as an object betrayal of people he campaigned on as being better for. The fact that Biden/etc are ALSO currently, actively complicit in a genocide doesn't example gender them a lot of goodwill either. This isn't "tankie" bullshit, and you should do better. People are allowed to express displeasure and different priorities from their political figures.
Weird how that doesn't seem to be the case for democrats.
Like honestly what do you expect to do for the conversation by putting out a shitty condescending remark like that?
It is the case for Democrats. They get concessions when Republicans actually try to pass legislation. That's also why Republican Congresses are so unproductive.
And we can have perfectly fine conversations if you stop attacking other posters and we all acknowledge how congress works. When Republicans control so much of it, they can demand things.
Weird how that doesn't seem to be the case for democrats.
Like honestly what do you expect to do for the conversation by putting out a shitty condescending remark like that?
It is the case for Democrats. They get concessions when Republicans actually try to pass legislation. That's also why Republican Congresses are so unproductive.
And we can have perfectly fine conversations if you stop attacking other posters and we all acknowledge how congress works. When Republicans control so much of it, they can demand things.
Who am I attacking? Monwyn for being a bad faith dipshit? You, a canadian, for being condescending about tHaTs HoW uS dEmOcRaCy WoRkS?
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
"They get to do this because they won elections" doesnt seem to apply to anyone who voted in Biden hoping hed protect them from any of this shit I guess.
Weird how that doesn't seem to be the case for democrats.
Like honestly what do you expect to do for the conversation by putting out a shitty condescending remark like that?
It is the case for Democrats. They get concessions when Republicans actually try to pass legislation. That's also why Republican Congresses are so unproductive.
And we can have perfectly fine conversations if you stop attacking other posters and we all acknowledge how congress works. When Republicans control so much of it, they can demand things.
I think this is the ultimate problem of so many of these conversations: They’re only “perfectly fine” if you’re insulated from the effects of them, or are able to detach yourself emotionally from the consequences of the events in question.
For anyone who are not so insulated, or cannot detach themselves and empathize with those effected, these conversations are utterly incapable of being “perfectly fine,” no matter what veneer of politeness, “rational logic,” calmness, etc. is plastered over them like so much paint over rotting, crumbling wood or stone.
They’re only “perfectly fine conversations” if you want the equivalent of a bunch of old late 19th century white men in gathered a sitting room by the fire, smoking pipes and musing about the rabble and the men of power who must deal with them.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
It's not an old saying. It's a 1994 quote from Libertarian author James Bovard about the need for stronger individual rights as opposed to democratically enforced regulation and the danger of an elected governments using their mandates to justify turning dictator.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
This is what Fox News is reporting/testing the waters on*, via one of their national correspondents:
BREAKING: Senate border deal details, per source familiar I just had a call with.
- Mandatory detention of all single adults.
- Mandatory “shut down” of border once average daily migrant encounters hits 5,000. Importantly, this 5,000 number includes 1,400 CBP One app entries at ports of entry per day, and roughly 3,600 illegal crossings per day.
- How is that enforced? Once the 5,000 threshold is hit, a new authority is codified into law that requires Border Patrol to immediately remove illegal immigrants they catch without processing. They would not get to request asylum, they would immediately be removed. This includes removals back to Mexico, and deportations to home countries. This would be a *massive* change from current policy, which is that once an illegal immigrant reaches US soil, they must be processed via Title 8 and allowed to claim asylum. Under this new authority – they are not processed, and they are mandatorily immediately removed once the “shut down” threshold is reached.
- This “shut down” also takes effect is there are 8,500 migrant encounters in a single day.
- The “shut down” would not lift the next day. It wouldn’t lift until daily encounters are reduced to under 75% of the 5,000 threshold for at least two weeks. This means the “shut down” authority would not lift until two weeks of an average of less than 3,750 migrant encounters per day.
- Some family units will be released with ATD (Alternatives to Detention, ankle monitors etc).
- New removal authority to immediately remove all migrants who do not have valid asylum claims, which will be determined within 6 months rather than the years long process we have right now.
- Any migrant caught trying to cross twice during “shut down” phase would be banned from entering US for one year.
- US will need agreement with Mexico for MX to take back non Mexican illegal immigrants. This hasn't been ironed out yet.
- President Biden approves of the deal and is ready to sign it as is, right now, and implement the new authority it would give him.
Fuck this to heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell
*always remember Fox is a political operation first and foremost.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
This is what Fox News is reporting/testing the waters on*, via one of their national correspondents:
BREAKING: Senate border deal details, per source familiar I just had a call with.
- Mandatory detention of all single adults.
- Mandatory “shut down” of border once average daily migrant encounters hits 5,000. Importantly, this 5,000 number includes 1,400 CBP One app entries at ports of entry per day, and roughly 3,600 illegal crossings per day.
- How is that enforced? Once the 5,000 threshold is hit, a new authority is codified into law that requires Border Patrol to immediately remove illegal immigrants they catch without processing. They would not get to request asylum, they would immediately be removed. This includes removals back to Mexico, and deportations to home countries. This would be a *massive* change from current policy, which is that once an illegal immigrant reaches US soil, they must be processed via Title 8 and allowed to claim asylum. Under this new authority – they are not processed, and they are mandatorily immediately removed once the “shut down” threshold is reached.
- This “shut down” also takes effect is there are 8,500 migrant encounters in a single day.
- The “shut down” would not lift the next day. It wouldn’t lift until daily encounters are reduced to under 75% of the 5,000 threshold for at least two weeks. This means the “shut down” authority would not lift until two weeks of an average of less than 3,750 migrant encounters per day.
- Some family units will be released with ATD (Alternatives to Detention, ankle monitors etc).
- New removal authority to immediately remove all migrants who do not have valid asylum claims, which will be determined within 6 months rather than the years long process we have right now.
- Any migrant caught trying to cross twice during “shut down” phase would be banned from entering US for one year.
- US will need agreement with Mexico for MX to take back non Mexican illegal immigrants. This hasn't been ironed out yet.
- President Biden approves of the deal and is ready to sign it as is, right now, and implement the new authority it would give him.
Fuck this to heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell
*always remember Fox is a political operation first and foremost.
A big part of the reason why I think it’s hard to make significant progress on immigration is that most people in the U.S. will read that list of bullet points and think “yeah, that seems reasonable”.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
Immigration reform has been dead for decades. Each attempt to get anything done has looked more and more in vain. The Republicans have been radicalizing more and more on the issue for a long time now and that means you can't get the numbers in Congress you need to get it passed. So there's been a gradual build up of pressure because of the inadequacies of the existing system on one side and the inability of Congress to function on the other.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Shryke, the democrats aren’t the fuckin’ sheep here. They’re one of the fucking wolves.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Shryke, the democrats aren’t the fuckin’ sheep here. They’re one of the fucking wolves.
They were the Wolves in my analogy, not the sheep. I thought that was pretty clear. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Shryke, the democrats aren’t the fuckin’ sheep here. They’re one of the fucking wolves.
They were the Wolves in my analogy, not the sheep. I thought that was pretty clear. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
Who, exactly then, are you saying is the sheep?
Because in my book, that’d be the immigrants just trying to make it to America to start safer and more secure lives here.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Shryke, the democrats aren’t the fuckin’ sheep here. They’re one of the fucking wolves.
They were the Wolves in my analogy, not the sheep. I thought that was pretty clear. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
Who, exactly then, are you saying is the sheep?
Because in my book, that’d be the immigrants just trying to make it to America to start safer and more secure lives here.
Why would they be the sheep? The whole point of "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner" quote is that the Wolves outvote the Sheep and can thus use their majority to do whatever they want. That the majority is exercising unrestricted power. But that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing cooperation between both voting groups. Both parties are working together. The 2 Wolves and the Sheep are sitting down at a table and hashing out a deal.
“Ah shit, the republicans are stoking the fires of a constitutional crisis because our immigration policies aren’t even more cruel and racist! Better give them what they want!”
Amusingly, Trump May have given Biden and co free ammo for the election. I'm absolutely no fan of this deal, as I've made abundantly clear, but if Dems have come to the table to make (and made) a deal with the GOP and then it gets bombed because Trump wants it to be an issue in November? Talk about handing your free cudgel to the Dems by showing you are unserious about an issue.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
Biden, the master negotiator, granting the Presidency new, sweeping powers over immigration, in exchange for the Ukrainian aid package.
Multiple GOP Congressfolk out there saying they aren't going to get a better deal on immigration under Trump, because the Democrats will actually fight them on it then. So why not get so much of what they want now?
Absolutely disgusting. Fuck Joe Biden.
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Shryke, the democrats aren’t the fuckin’ sheep here. They’re one of the fucking wolves.
They were the Wolves in my analogy, not the sheep. I thought that was pretty clear. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
Who, exactly then, are you saying is the sheep?
Because in my book, that’d be the immigrants just trying to make it to America to start safer and more secure lives here.
Pretty obvious from the context that the Republicans are the sheep in that analogy. Not sure why you are trying to shoehorn non-citizens who cannot vote into an analogy about voting.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
Immigration reform has been dead for decades. Each attempt to get anything done has looked more and more in vain. The Republicans have been radicalizing more and more on the issue for a long time now and that means you can't get the numbers in Congress you need to get it passed. So there's been a gradual build up of pressure because of the inadequacies of the existing system on one side and the inability of Congress to function on the other.
Its dead because there is one position on immigration in this country and you get to pick what flavor of it you get.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
Immigration reform has been dead for decades. Each attempt to get anything done has looked more and more in vain. The Republicans have been radicalizing more and more on the issue for a long time now and that means you can't get the numbers in Congress you need to get it passed. So there's been a gradual build up of pressure because of the inadequacies of the existing system on one side and the inability of Congress to function on the other.
Its dead because there is one position on immigration in this country and you get to pick what flavor of it you get.
Nah. There's been plenty of support for other kinds of immigration reform in congress over the years. It's just none of them can get the kind of support needed to get past a filibuster or get a majority in the House.
As a good example, look at all the attempts to get anything done for Dreamers. A title that is itself named after the bill that has spent over 20 years unable to get passed despite quite a bit of support in Congress and pretty overwhelming support by the public in polling.
We've got two political parties agreeing to this abominable immigration policy
It's pretty fucking straightforward to understand
No. The point of the quote is that all 3 can vote. And a majority of them (the 2 wolves) are voting to fuck over the minority (the sheep). That the wolves can do whatever they want to the sheep because even though all 3 get a say under the rules of the system, the wolves outvote the sheep. If you want to apply this to congress then the majority party is the wolves and the minority party is the sheep.
We've got two political parties agreeing to this abominable immigration policy
It's pretty fucking straightforward to understand
No. The point of the quote is that all 3 can vote. And a majority of them (the 2 wolves) are voting to fuck over the minority (the sheep). That the wolves can do whatever they want to the sheep because even though all 3 get a say under the rules of the system, the wolves outvote the sheep. If you want to apply this to congress then the majority party is the wolves and the minority party is the sheep.
But it works just as well with both parties as wolves and the sheep as the reformists and immigrants without enough pull in Congress.
We've got two political parties agreeing to this abominable immigration policy
It's pretty fucking straightforward to understand
No. The point of the quote is that all 3 can vote. And a majority of them (the 2 wolves) are voting to fuck over the minority (the sheep). That the wolves can do whatever they want to the sheep because even though all 3 get a say under the rules of the system, the wolves outvote the sheep. If you want to apply this to congress then the majority party is the wolves and the minority party is the sheep.
The saying is about three parties where two of the parties are ostensibly separate but are obviously known to band together to fuck over the third party.
If you want to confine the analogy to Congress, the "sheep" would be the progressive Democrats who actually give a shit about progressive immigration reform, while the wolves are the GOP and the "centrist liberal" Democratic leadership. For all the noise they make about disagreeing with each other, the two wolves share more common ground with each other than the sheep, and will work together rather than work with the sheep.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
Immigration reform has been dead for decades. Each attempt to get anything done has looked more and more in vain. The Republicans have been radicalizing more and more on the issue for a long time now and that means you can't get the numbers in Congress you need to get it passed. So there's been a gradual build up of pressure because of the inadequacies of the existing system on one side and the inability of Congress to function on the other.
Its dead because there is one position on immigration in this country and you get to pick what flavor of it you get.
Nah. There's been plenty of support for other kinds of immigration reform in congress over the years. It's just none of them can get the kind of support needed to get past a filibuster or get a majority in the House.
As a good example, look at all the attempts to get anything done for Dreamers. A title that is itself named after the bill that has spent over 20 years unable to get passed despite quite a bit of support in Congress and pretty overwhelming support by the public in polling.
Right, there's only one kind of immigration policy in this country and you just get slightly different flavors of it.
You have a lot of idiots who like the idea of something like dreamers or other forms of immigration reform in terms of results, but don't want it written down. They would rather the law say fuck those people, cuz we don't want to incentivize them coming here, but then we'll be magnanimous because it would just be really mean to follow the shitty law.
Your typical laws are for bad people not good people bullshit. Just trust our Good vibes to resonate with the universe and make things work. Without stepping on the toes of our racist vibes.
Whats infuriating here is that we're just entirely past trying to undo anything about how border and immigration policy works. Now all thats left is to see how close the administration will get to the GOP position before the GOP takes power anyway. Gotta keep cranking that ratchet.
Immigration reform has been dead for decades. Each attempt to get anything done has looked more and more in vain. The Republicans have been radicalizing more and more on the issue for a long time now and that means you can't get the numbers in Congress you need to get it passed. So there's been a gradual build up of pressure because of the inadequacies of the existing system on one side and the inability of Congress to function on the other.
Its dead because there is one position on immigration in this country and you get to pick what flavor of it you get.
Nah. There's been plenty of support for other kinds of immigration reform in congress over the years. It's just none of them can get the kind of support needed to get past a filibuster or get a majority in the House.
As a good example, look at all the attempts to get anything done for Dreamers. A title that is itself named after the bill that has spent over 20 years unable to get passed despite quite a bit of support in Congress and pretty overwhelming support by the public in polling.
Right, there's only one kind of immigration policy in this country and you just get slightly different flavors of it.
No, the exact opposite. Like I said. I even provided a good example of this with the Dreamer issue. There are several different flavours of immigration policy. The problem has been that none of them have had enough support to pass.
You have a lot of idiots who like the idea or something like dreamers or other forms of immigration reform in terms of results, but don't want it written down. They would rather the law say fuck those people, cuz we don't want to incentivize them coming here, but then we'll be magnanimous because it would just be really mean to follow the shitty law.
Your typical laws are for bad people not good people bullshit. Just trust our Good vibes to resonate with the universe and make things work. Without stepping on the toes of our racist vibes.
Not much different than criminal justice/police reform in general. Make a lot of noise about change needing to happen, but the only change ever supported is more money for cops.
Posts
And literally rewarding them stepping up to the line of rebelling against the federal government.
Republicans are really just allowed to get whatever the fuck it is they want, no matter who they have to literally terrorize to get it.
Way to just show your belly there Mr President.
Even though I think frustrated republicans are correct that they will would have a harder time negotiating a similar bill with Trump in the White House under a mixed Congress. There was some reporting saying a handful of republicans were considering defecting in order to reach a deal, or at least continuing to negotiate under the table.
I will say that seeing Chris “we tried to organise a kind of coup” Murphy being put in the big chair for the immigration deal talks when those actions are exactly the kind of thing that drives up refugees from South America to the US border is another piece of irony mixed into all of this.
His objection being that the coup could have been run better, not that it was run.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/01/25/how-the-border-could-cost-biden-the-election
The a priori validity of asylum requirements doesn't matter. Too many people are coming in, therefore we must tighten requirements and send them back to be exploited or killed by gangs.
This is the biggest part of what this is all about and any analysis not noticing that is just completely unserious. Immigration and the border is a big issue right now and Trump wants to run on it. So Trump is trying to kill the negotiations. So Biden is almost certainly going to hit him with "I was going to solve the border crisis but Trump doesn't want it since because he only cares about getting elected". So we get a statement setting that up. In the same way, if this deal happens, he'll claim it as a victory. "I worked to solve the border, Trump did nothing"
The other major thing going, of course, is still Ukraine funding.
Republicans are allowed to get things they want because they control more then half the House and almost half the Senate. That's how democracies work.
Like honestly what do you expect to do for the conversation by putting out a shitty condescending remark like that?
This is a perfect example of not engaging in good faith. Of course people are aware of these negotiations. The Abbot thing isn't the only new thing and your lack of acknowledgement of that isn't our issue. It also doesn't mean that people can't be upset at the results of the negotiations either, and see the package Biden is going for as an object betrayal of people he campaigned on as being better for. The fact that Biden/etc are ALSO currently, actively complicit in a genocide doesn't example gender them a lot of goodwill either. This isn't "tankie" bullshit, and you should do better. People are allowed to express displeasure and different priorities from their political figures.
It is the case for Democrats. They get concessions when Republicans actually try to pass legislation. That's also why Republican Congresses are so unproductive.
And we can have perfectly fine conversations if you stop attacking other posters and we all acknowledge how congress works. When Republicans control so much of it, they can demand things.
Who am I attacking? Monwyn for being a bad faith dipshit? You, a canadian, for being condescending about tHaTs HoW uS dEmOcRaCy WoRkS?
Fuck outta here
The problem here is this won’t ever work, because it relies on buying into the Right’s framing on immigration to begin with instead of presenting and arguing an opposed immigration framework. The democrats fail, and betray the ostensible values of the party, the moment they accept the right’s racist proposal of “There’s too many people trying to get across teh border, and we need to do something about that,” instead of articulating a framing where these people immigrating are seen as legitimate and beneficial additions to American society.
It’s the same problem with the democrats as has been for decades now: they only ever want to offer a lighter version of right wing proposals, because leadership is fundamentally right wing themselves, and then wonder why Republicans won’t vote for them and why their base is further and further discouraged from supporting them.
“Democracy is more than two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner,” as the old saying goes.
At some point, the democrats have to actually stand for something more than being slightly more acceptable Republicans.
EDIT: To elaborate on this further, the embrace the Democrats, and from, your first quoted post above, I feel you do as well, are making is the same flawed, xenophobic impulse that has plagued this country for over a century. It’s the same kind of shit that foisted the festering Chinese Exclusion Act and the other racist immigration laws that passed in its wake that sought to prohibit non-whites from coming to the country: “There’s too many of those people coming here, and we need to do something about it, or else we’ll lose the country!”
It needs to be opposed, it needs to be stopped. Not compromised with, stopped. Or it will lead to nothing but human immiseration and the bolstering of ethnonationalism in America. The only difference between Biden and the Republicans/Trump is if you want that growth of ethnonationalist sentiment to grow slowly or exponentially fast.
I think this is the ultimate problem of so many of these conversations: They’re only “perfectly fine” if you’re insulated from the effects of them, or are able to detach yourself emotionally from the consequences of the events in question.
For anyone who are not so insulated, or cannot detach themselves and empathize with those effected, these conversations are utterly incapable of being “perfectly fine,” no matter what veneer of politeness, “rational logic,” calmness, etc. is plastered over them like so much paint over rotting, crumbling wood or stone.
They’re only “perfectly fine conversations” if you want the equivalent of a bunch of old late 19th century white men in gathered a sitting room by the fire, smoking pipes and musing about the rabble and the men of power who must deal with them.
It's not an old saying. It's a 1994 quote from Libertarian author James Bovard about the need for stronger individual rights as opposed to democratically enforced regulation and the danger of an elected governments using their mandates to justify turning dictator.
- John Stuart Mill
This is what Fox News is reporting/testing the waters on*, via one of their national correspondents:
Fuck this to heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell
*always remember Fox is a political operation first and foremost.
A big part of the reason why I think it’s hard to make significant progress on immigration is that most people in the U.S. will read that list of bullet points and think “yeah, that seems reasonable”.
Your quote is saying the opposite of what you think it is in this situation. The point of the apocryphal "two wolves and a sheep" thing is that strict majoritarianism has to be tempered. That the people who have the majority shouldn't just do whatever the hell they can get away with. Which we're not seeing because no one has a strict majority rigth now at the federal level. And so what we're seeing is the opposite of what you are referring to. Compromise being reached between the two parties. This isn't two wolves agreeing to eat the sheep, it's the wolves and sheep agreeing a a deal where both sides get some of their demands to reach a conclusion all 3 can agree on. Which, if one only likes what the Wolves are offering and think the Sheep is a fucking racist piece of shit, can be unsatisfying. To quote Calvin "A good compromise leaves everybody mad".
It's good to remember this is only a thing right now because Republicans conditioned aid to Ukraine and Taiwan on border policy changes.
Also I think you are not correct that getting this passed wouldn't let Biden run on having "done something" on immigration. Running on how Trump scuttled bipartisan deals to "Fix The Border" because he only cares about himself is a decent fall back though. Immigration is a rising priority, even among democratic voters (though they care less about it) and democratic politicians. From reporting, part of the reason the Biden White House is open to a deal here is because they are getting pressure from within the party about the issue.
Immigration reform has been dead for decades. Each attempt to get anything done has looked more and more in vain. The Republicans have been radicalizing more and more on the issue for a long time now and that means you can't get the numbers in Congress you need to get it passed. So there's been a gradual build up of pressure because of the inadequacies of the existing system on one side and the inability of Congress to function on the other.
Shryke, the democrats aren’t the fuckin’ sheep here. They’re one of the fucking wolves.
They were the Wolves in my analogy, not the sheep. I thought that was pretty clear. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
Who, exactly then, are you saying is the sheep?
Because in my book, that’d be the immigrants just trying to make it to America to start safer and more secure lives here.
Why would they be the sheep? The whole point of "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner" quote is that the Wolves outvote the Sheep and can thus use their majority to do whatever they want. That the majority is exercising unrestricted power. But that's not what we're seeing. We're seeing cooperation between both voting groups. Both parties are working together. The 2 Wolves and the Sheep are sitting down at a table and hashing out a deal.
Pretty obvious from the context that the Republicans are the sheep in that analogy. Not sure why you are trying to shoehorn non-citizens who cannot vote into an analogy about voting.
- John Stuart Mill
Its dead because there is one position on immigration in this country and you get to pick what flavor of it you get.
Nah. There's been plenty of support for other kinds of immigration reform in congress over the years. It's just none of them can get the kind of support needed to get past a filibuster or get a majority in the House.
As a good example, look at all the attempts to get anything done for Dreamers. A title that is itself named after the bill that has spent over 20 years unable to get passed despite quite a bit of support in Congress and pretty overwhelming support by the public in polling.
Agreeing to slaughter the sheep
We've got two political parties agreeing to this abominable immigration policy
It's pretty fucking straightforward to understand
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
No. The point of the quote is that all 3 can vote. And a majority of them (the 2 wolves) are voting to fuck over the minority (the sheep). That the wolves can do whatever they want to the sheep because even though all 3 get a say under the rules of the system, the wolves outvote the sheep. If you want to apply this to congress then the majority party is the wolves and the minority party is the sheep.
But it works just as well with both parties as wolves and the sheep as the reformists and immigrants without enough pull in Congress.
The saying is about three parties where two of the parties are ostensibly separate but are obviously known to band together to fuck over the third party.
If you want to confine the analogy to Congress, the "sheep" would be the progressive Democrats who actually give a shit about progressive immigration reform, while the wolves are the GOP and the "centrist liberal" Democratic leadership. For all the noise they make about disagreeing with each other, the two wolves share more common ground with each other than the sheep, and will work together rather than work with the sheep.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Right, there's only one kind of immigration policy in this country and you just get slightly different flavors of it.
Your typical laws are for bad people not good people bullshit. Just trust our Good vibes to resonate with the universe and make things work. Without stepping on the toes of our racist vibes.
No, the exact opposite. Like I said. I even provided a good example of this with the Dreamer issue. There are several different flavours of immigration policy. The problem has been that none of them have had enough support to pass.
Not much different than criminal justice/police reform in general. Make a lot of noise about change needing to happen, but the only change ever supported is more money for cops.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar