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Coin Return Values & Code of Conduct - Proposal - Open for Feedback until Dec. 13th
minor incident
publicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Team regular
publicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Team regular
Hello all,
After weeks of discussion, consulting, and countless revisions, we've put together our first proposal for the Coin Return Values & Code of Conduct that we want to get community feedback on before pressing forward. But first, a little explanation and backstory on how this is designed...
Essentially, our community will be governed by three documents: our Values, our Code of Conduct, and our Forum Rules. Think of these three documents as a pyramid.
The Values are at the bottom and are broad statements that we consider the pillars of our community. These form the bedrock of our identity as a community and the foundation of all of our governance and leadership directions. They form the "WHY" of Coin Return's existence--the reason for all parts of our Code of Conduct and Forum Rules to exist.
Next up comes the Code of Conduct which sits just above the Values. These demonstrate the general guidelines for behavior we expect of all members (and leadership) in order to be a part of this community in broader, less specific terms than "Forum Rules" would be, but they will later allow for our Forum Rules to be based directly off of the Code of Conduct in more pointed, specific terms. These guidelines spring forth directly from interpreting our Values, and in most cases are the result of multiple values intersecting. The Code of Conduct makes up the "WHAT", by detailing exactly what is being asked from everyone in this community.
Lastly there are the Forum Rules, which are not being presented at this time, as they're still being worked on, and will be further refined based on your feedback on our Values and Code of Conduct. The Forum Rules will make up the top of the pyramid. Much more narrowly focused on addressing specific situations that spring forth from our Values and Code of Conduct. These make up our "HOW" by explaining the ways we will be enforcing our Code of Conduct, and how transgressions will be dealt with.
And because this is going to be a long wall of text, here's a visual aid to break things up and help you picture how our Values support everything above them, and how our Code of Conduct will form the foundation for our Forum Rules:
Now, with the explanation out of the way, what we're asking of you here is simple: We know this is a lot to sift through, but please read through the document below in full and imagine yourself as part of a community governed by these principals. Then ask yourself a few questions. How do they make you feel? Are there parts that you love? Are there parts that you don't quite understand? Are there bits that we could use some work to clarify better? Are there parts of this that you vehemently disagree with? Are there specific changes you'd like to see? Are there more general changes in vibes or tone that you feel would help? The only thing we ask is that for right now you stick to the Values and Code of Conduct, and do not get into the weeds of suggesting specific Forum Rules or degrees of punishment for transgressions -- we'll visit that in a separate post at a later time.
We're open for feedback from everyone. Now, I think it goes without saying that with such a large, diverse community as we have here, there will absolutely be conflicting opinions here. We'll do our best to incorporate feedback and requests that make sense, feel appropriate for the health of the community, and have some amount of consensus (so please don't be afraid to repeat what someone else has already said, and be sure to also mention what you like and would want to see stick around), but please be aware that not every piece of feedback posted here can necessarily be incorporated. Once we've given time for everyone to say their part and we've had time to distill those thoughts back into the document, we'll resume work on the Forum Rules (which really need a solid foundation in the Values and Code of Conduct to be completed), and we'll seek feedback there as well. Finally, once we feel that we've gotten all three parts to a stage where the community's voice has been heard and accounted for, we'll take the whole thing to a vote to ratify our founding document.
With all that our of the way, here's the actual document with our Values and Code of Conduct for you to all review:
Values
These are the core values we see as vitally important to our culture, and to the health and safety of our community. We will start off by listing these values, then explaining how they are put into practice to form the basis of our Code of Conduct and our Forum Rules:
Values in Practice
We believe these values must underpin the “spirit” of any rules that spring from them. It is easy to make a rule that fixes a specific problem that ignores other values that the community finds important. On the other hand, if we have a shared set of values, the rules flow naturally from the act of sticking to our values. Several values naturally intersect to guide how we all interact with each other on the forums. Not a free for all, but not overly restrictive, and always focused on the human component: our community. Note that throughout this list, as well as the Code of Conduct that follows, you’ll see a series of numbers at the end of each item. These indicate which of our Values each statement is derived from.
Here are some core principles for leadership and governance that we have established which naturally spring from these values -- with the related values noted:
Most notable here, we think, is the final principle, which has the most core values attached. Another thing you'll notice is that everything in this list and in our Code of Conduct below also traces back to "Connectedness" which we see as the load bearing value for a community of peers. It's the core of how we interact and intersect as a group and is always at the forefront. Everything we work on for the Coin Return Forums is something we consider a living document. A work in progress. A collaboration with all of you, our friends in this community. This isn’t to say that we’ll turn the ship around at the slightest protest, but we pledge to you to always consider community feedback and to take a measured view while incorporating that feedback into all decision making processes.
We all want to move forward together as an inclusive, caring community. We want everyone to feel heard. We want everyone to feel safe. We want everyone to show a certain level of respect for the community at large and its individual members.
Code of Conduct
The Coin Return Forum is committed to providing a safe, productive, and welcoming environment for all members participating in the forum’s discussions. All members are expected to abide by the Coin Return Code of Conduct. This Code of Conduct applies to all forum members and discussions equally across all of The Coin Return Forums, and we’ll also elaborate on some of the more complex subjects in the following section. You'll notice that many of these are much more broad than traditional Forum Rules -- this is intentional as the Code of Conduct will serve as the "spirit of the law" which the eventual Forum Rules will drill down into specific situations and consequences. Being open to some interpretation is not a flaw in the Code of Conduct, and the eventual Forum Rules will be utilized to eliminate as much gray area and misinterpretation as possible. If you are unsure how an item in the Code of Conduct should be interpreted, refer to the relevant Values to better evaluate the intended meaning.
Members of our community are expected to:
The following sections include some more in depth clarification and expansion on a few of the more complicated topics touched on by the Code of Conduct:
Respectfully Disagreeing
Our forums welcome a wide range of members from diverse backgrounds, lived experiences, and opinions. It is impossible to agree with everyone, but it is possible to disagree constructively to allow real discussions. There is no need to turn disagreements into heated arguments or personal attacks and insults. If you feel a fellow poster is breaking a rule, please use the report feature to alert a moderator.
Sexual Harassment
We strive to provide an environment free of unwelcome sexual advances, unwelcome requests for sexual favors or other verbal or physical conduct or communications of a sexual nature constituting sexual harassment. “Sexual harassment” is defined as any unwelcome sexual advance or request for sexual favors or any unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature. If another user is making you feel uncomfortable with comments or requests of a sexual nature, please alert a moderator immediately.
Stalking, Doxxing, and Harassment
Stalking, doxxing, and harassment are all unwelcome behaviors. In the interest of clarity, we consider stalking to be any behavior that involves “following” another user to another location to continue to communicate or disparage them. This includes sending unwanted emails or private messages on Discord or other social media, as well as any form of in-person or “IRL” communications. Doxxing is defined as sharing or publicizing another user’s private information without their knowledge or consent, such as their real name, address, job information, email address, or other private social media accounts. Harassment is more general and includes (but is not limited to) repeatedly messaging or addressing another user directly after being asked to stop. Harassment may overlap with doxxing or stalking in some cases, or may be limited to intra-forum conflicts. These examples do not constitute an exhaustive list, and moderator discretion will be used for any edge cases.
On Reading the Room
We recognize that interpreting tone and intent can be difficult in nonverbal asynchronous communication for many people. It can even be difficult to know what sort of relationship you have with your fellow posters as a result of this. We ask that you make a good faith effort to understand the tone of the conversation and participate accordingly. If someone gets this a bit wrong and misses the mark we ask that you not respond with undue harshness. A lot can be achieved with gentle nudges, and the report button should always be used in cases of egregious violations. Please also ensure you are taking the responsibility to use, read, and pay attention to the tags on a thread to better determine what type of conversation you are getting into.
After weeks of discussion, consulting, and countless revisions, we've put together our first proposal for the Coin Return Values & Code of Conduct that we want to get community feedback on before pressing forward. But first, a little explanation and backstory on how this is designed...
Essentially, our community will be governed by three documents: our Values, our Code of Conduct, and our Forum Rules. Think of these three documents as a pyramid.
The Values are at the bottom and are broad statements that we consider the pillars of our community. These form the bedrock of our identity as a community and the foundation of all of our governance and leadership directions. They form the "WHY" of Coin Return's existence--the reason for all parts of our Code of Conduct and Forum Rules to exist.
Next up comes the Code of Conduct which sits just above the Values. These demonstrate the general guidelines for behavior we expect of all members (and leadership) in order to be a part of this community in broader, less specific terms than "Forum Rules" would be, but they will later allow for our Forum Rules to be based directly off of the Code of Conduct in more pointed, specific terms. These guidelines spring forth directly from interpreting our Values, and in most cases are the result of multiple values intersecting. The Code of Conduct makes up the "WHAT", by detailing exactly what is being asked from everyone in this community.
Lastly there are the Forum Rules, which are not being presented at this time, as they're still being worked on, and will be further refined based on your feedback on our Values and Code of Conduct. The Forum Rules will make up the top of the pyramid. Much more narrowly focused on addressing specific situations that spring forth from our Values and Code of Conduct. These make up our "HOW" by explaining the ways we will be enforcing our Code of Conduct, and how transgressions will be dealt with.
And because this is going to be a long wall of text, here's a visual aid to break things up and help you picture how our Values support everything above them, and how our Code of Conduct will form the foundation for our Forum Rules:
Now, with the explanation out of the way, what we're asking of you here is simple: We know this is a lot to sift through, but please read through the document below in full and imagine yourself as part of a community governed by these principals. Then ask yourself a few questions. How do they make you feel? Are there parts that you love? Are there parts that you don't quite understand? Are there bits that we could use some work to clarify better? Are there parts of this that you vehemently disagree with? Are there specific changes you'd like to see? Are there more general changes in vibes or tone that you feel would help? The only thing we ask is that for right now you stick to the Values and Code of Conduct, and do not get into the weeds of suggesting specific Forum Rules or degrees of punishment for transgressions -- we'll visit that in a separate post at a later time.
We're open for feedback from everyone. Now, I think it goes without saying that with such a large, diverse community as we have here, there will absolutely be conflicting opinions here. We'll do our best to incorporate feedback and requests that make sense, feel appropriate for the health of the community, and have some amount of consensus (so please don't be afraid to repeat what someone else has already said, and be sure to also mention what you like and would want to see stick around), but please be aware that not every piece of feedback posted here can necessarily be incorporated. Once we've given time for everyone to say their part and we've had time to distill those thoughts back into the document, we'll resume work on the Forum Rules (which really need a solid foundation in the Values and Code of Conduct to be completed), and we'll seek feedback there as well. Finally, once we feel that we've gotten all three parts to a stage where the community's voice has been heard and accounted for, we'll take the whole thing to a vote to ratify our founding document.
With all that our of the way, here's the actual document with our Values and Code of Conduct for you to all review:
Values
These are the core values we see as vitally important to our culture, and to the health and safety of our community. We will start off by listing these values, then explaining how they are put into practice to form the basis of our Code of Conduct and our Forum Rules:
- Connectedness
- Safety
- Self-Expression
- Equity
- Accountability
- Empathy
Values in Practice
We believe these values must underpin the “spirit” of any rules that spring from them. It is easy to make a rule that fixes a specific problem that ignores other values that the community finds important. On the other hand, if we have a shared set of values, the rules flow naturally from the act of sticking to our values. Several values naturally intersect to guide how we all interact with each other on the forums. Not a free for all, but not overly restrictive, and always focused on the human component: our community. Note that throughout this list, as well as the Code of Conduct that follows, you’ll see a series of numbers at the end of each item. These indicate which of our Values each statement is derived from.
Here are some core principles for leadership and governance that we have established which naturally spring from these values -- with the related values noted:
- We have created a third space that is not only owned, but also operated by the community. This space will be available without limitations to all community members, regardless of their ability to pay. (1, 2, 3, 4)
- We provide a safe and welcoming environment for marginalized members of our community, where their voices will be heard and their lived experiences respected. (1, 2, 4, 6)
- We provide a venue for discussions at all levels, from rigid, serious topics to light hearted off-topic fare. We hope to accommodate all communication styles allowing all of our users to be able to participate in topics freely at will, as they desire. (1, 3, 4, 6)
- We respect the privacy of our members, providing them with a forum that allows them to speak freely, openly, and respectfully without fear of harassment, doxxing, or stalking. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
- We respect the rights of artists, writers, and other creators in our community and the art they create. (1, 2, 3, 4)
- We provide fair and equitable moderation for all discussions with clearly stated rules and consequences. (1, 2, 4, 5)
- We hold our leadership and moderators accountable to the community, ensuring all users have a chance for their voice to be heard. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
- We listen to feedback from our community and adjust course as necessary, making this forum a constantly evolving work of community collaboration. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Most notable here, we think, is the final principle, which has the most core values attached. Another thing you'll notice is that everything in this list and in our Code of Conduct below also traces back to "Connectedness" which we see as the load bearing value for a community of peers. It's the core of how we interact and intersect as a group and is always at the forefront. Everything we work on for the Coin Return Forums is something we consider a living document. A work in progress. A collaboration with all of you, our friends in this community. This isn’t to say that we’ll turn the ship around at the slightest protest, but we pledge to you to always consider community feedback and to take a measured view while incorporating that feedback into all decision making processes.
We all want to move forward together as an inclusive, caring community. We want everyone to feel heard. We want everyone to feel safe. We want everyone to show a certain level of respect for the community at large and its individual members.
Code of Conduct
The Coin Return Forum is committed to providing a safe, productive, and welcoming environment for all members participating in the forum’s discussions. All members are expected to abide by the Coin Return Code of Conduct. This Code of Conduct applies to all forum members and discussions equally across all of The Coin Return Forums, and we’ll also elaborate on some of the more complex subjects in the following section. You'll notice that many of these are much more broad than traditional Forum Rules -- this is intentional as the Code of Conduct will serve as the "spirit of the law" which the eventual Forum Rules will drill down into specific situations and consequences. Being open to some interpretation is not a flaw in the Code of Conduct, and the eventual Forum Rules will be utilized to eliminate as much gray area and misinterpretation as possible. If you are unsure how an item in the Code of Conduct should be interpreted, refer to the relevant Values to better evaluate the intended meaning.
Members of our community are expected to:
- Not engage in racism, sexism, hate speech, or other forms of bigotry. (1, 2, 3, 4, 6)
- Not engage in stalking, doxxing, or other forms of harassment against community members. (1, 2, 4, 6)
- Respect the lived experiences of women, minorities, members of the LGBTQ community, and other marginalized people in the course of a discussion. (1, 2, 3, 4, 6)
- Respect all members’ pronouns and gender identity. (1, 2, 3, 4, 6)
- Not engage in deliberate trolling or “baiting” other members. (1, 2, 4, 5, 6)
- Not carry over forum disputes or disagreements to other public venues. (1, 2, 5, 6)
- Engage in all discussions in good faith and endeavor to assume others are acting in good faith as well. (1, 3, 5)
- Respect moderation decisions and follow provided procedures for escalations/reviews. (1, 2, 4, 5, 6)
- Avoid saying anything to another member you would not say face-to-face. (1, 5, 6)
- Seek moderator assistance if you are made to feel unsafe by another member. (1, 2, 4, 5, 6)
- Always engage with the substance of an argument, rather than attacking the person on an individual level. (1, 3, 5, 6)
- Avoid gloating over moderator actions directed at other members. (1, 4, 5, 6)
- Never take the enforcement of our Code of Conduct or Forum Rules into your own hands instead of reporting a post or contacting a mod. (1, 2, 5)
The following sections include some more in depth clarification and expansion on a few of the more complicated topics touched on by the Code of Conduct:
Respectfully Disagreeing
Our forums welcome a wide range of members from diverse backgrounds, lived experiences, and opinions. It is impossible to agree with everyone, but it is possible to disagree constructively to allow real discussions. There is no need to turn disagreements into heated arguments or personal attacks and insults. If you feel a fellow poster is breaking a rule, please use the report feature to alert a moderator.
Sexual Harassment
We strive to provide an environment free of unwelcome sexual advances, unwelcome requests for sexual favors or other verbal or physical conduct or communications of a sexual nature constituting sexual harassment. “Sexual harassment” is defined as any unwelcome sexual advance or request for sexual favors or any unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature. If another user is making you feel uncomfortable with comments or requests of a sexual nature, please alert a moderator immediately.
Stalking, Doxxing, and Harassment
Stalking, doxxing, and harassment are all unwelcome behaviors. In the interest of clarity, we consider stalking to be any behavior that involves “following” another user to another location to continue to communicate or disparage them. This includes sending unwanted emails or private messages on Discord or other social media, as well as any form of in-person or “IRL” communications. Doxxing is defined as sharing or publicizing another user’s private information without their knowledge or consent, such as their real name, address, job information, email address, or other private social media accounts. Harassment is more general and includes (but is not limited to) repeatedly messaging or addressing another user directly after being asked to stop. Harassment may overlap with doxxing or stalking in some cases, or may be limited to intra-forum conflicts. These examples do not constitute an exhaustive list, and moderator discretion will be used for any edge cases.
On Reading the Room
We recognize that interpreting tone and intent can be difficult in nonverbal asynchronous communication for many people. It can even be difficult to know what sort of relationship you have with your fellow posters as a result of this. We ask that you make a good faith effort to understand the tone of the conversation and participate accordingly. If someone gets this a bit wrong and misses the mark we ask that you not respond with undue harshness. A lot can be achieved with gentle nudges, and the report button should always be used in cases of egregious violations. Please also ensure you are taking the responsibility to use, read, and pay attention to the tags on a thread to better determine what type of conversation you are getting into.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
minor incident on
+33
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
[Edit: Big thank you to everyone who worked on this!]
Speaking of pabana peals, which one of you malcontents signed the appeals address up for spam
I will find you
But I think the rules about taking forum discussions off-site might need some adjustment and/or clarification.
As written, if, say, I'm mutuals with someone on bluesky, and we have a heated disagreement here and end up continuing it on bsky, we are both guilty of breaking the rules, or at least whichever of us started the bsky argument
Technically, as written, it doesn't even need to be an argument. If I see someone posting cool art here, and then see the same art in my for you feed and respond with, "oh hey I saw this on CR the other day, it's really cool!" Then I am arguably breaking the rules against stalking and "following another user to another location to continue to communicate with them." In this example I didn't really follow them, it was incidental, but how is the artist supposed to know that?
And, I recognize this gets hairy fast, because on one hand you could say "well that example is obviously a positive interaction, why would anyone report that or care about it, it obviously falls out of the spirit of the rules." But stalking very frequently involves nominally positive behavior, that's part of how stalkers get away with it, so that can't really be the measuring stick.
It is a complicated topic where if you go too far with these rules, you sort of sign yourself up for policing people's online relationships in a way that feels beyond the scope of what a forum moderation team should be responsible for (and what a forum population should be beholden to, tbh), and if you don't go far enough then you run the risk of insufficiently protecting people from malicious behavior. I don't have a good solution here, but rules around it as written feel vague and a little confused. Again, without trying to poke a bruise, they sort of feel reverse-engineered from "how do we stop a repeat of a certain recent incident," rather than being a well-thought out general rule to apply in a wide range of situations
http://www.audioentropy.com/
A useful way to look at this is that #6 in the Code comes from values 1, 2, 5, 6. Does your post on a friend's socials violate the values of Connectedness, Safety, Accountability, or Empathy? Probably not, in most cases! And for those cases where it does, that's what the more granular capital-R Rules will address eventually.
The point of having the code derived from the values is that we don't have to game out every edge case just yet.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
Had a few comments about this specifically. My general answer is that I would prefer that specific nitty-gritty examples are more the domain of the Forum Rules, which can use the Code of Conduct as a reference for the reason [X Specific Situation] would result in [Y Specific Punishment]. But we did try to offer a bit more elaboration on the topic than on some others, simply because it's been such a hot button issue for a lot of folks lately.
I think a small change to the wording might help some of your concern there (with the rules allowing more granular coverage on specific situations later). How about a simple change like this? (changes in italics)
Stalking, Doxxing, and Harassment
Stalking, doxxing, and harassment are all unwelcome behaviors. In the interest of clarity, we consider stalking to be any behavior that involves “following” another user to another location to continue to disparage them or engage in further unwanted communication. This includes sending unwanted emails or private messages on Discord or other social media, as well as any form of in-person or “IRL” communications. Communicating with another community member on a platform outside of the Coin Return Forums that you both normally frequent is generally not stalking, but may veer into harassment depending on context. Doxxing is defined as sharing or publicizing another user’s private information without their knowledge or consent, such as their real name, address, job information, email address, or other private social media accounts. Harassment is more general and includes (but is not limited to) repeatedly messaging or addressing another user directly after being asked to stop. Harassment may overlap with doxxing or stalking in some cases, or may be limited to intra-forum conflicts. These examples do not constitute an exhaustive list, and moderator discretion will be used for any edge cases.
Feel free to propose a direct edit as well if you don't think that quite gets it across.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I'm more than happy to stay out of difficult discussions around these core values (heh CoRe values?), because I just can't wrap my head around someone having big objections to this.
I think the issue is that something like "Don't be a dick" can end up feeling like a catch-all that lacks any agreed upon definition. For example: are you a dick to call someone out for hypocrisy?
By codify this a bit more, we can construct a system that not only provides more visible guide-rails for users but also provides the moderation team a system to utilize when having to make rulings on nebulous or unique situations.
For Code of Conduct #12, which states:
Could we revise it to be:
This keeps it in the style of #1 and #2, and I don't like saying "avoid" or "gloating" because both feel more nebulous. If I am avoiding something, it is something I am trying not to do, but it also feels like it gives me a permission structure to fail. And gloating is a term that I think can be much more up to the reader's interpretation rather than the authors.
This does cut both ways. If we want to make things work better here, you need faith that your complaints or appeals will be heard. We have avenues to be heard.
Don’t throw a party and don’t publicly light the mods on fire for the hard work they do. If you agree? Move on. If you disagree, use the avenues available to do so and you will absolutely be heard.
That seems like a reasonable edit that keeps the spirit intended. I like it. And syndalis’ suggestion seems like a good way to cover it in full, actually.
As for pronouns, yes, the plan is to have a visible pronoun field for users to fill out, similar to how our “location” and “title” fields appear here on Vanilla — except equally visible on both the mobile and desktop views. And, of course, mistakes happen and I think most people would not be offended at all as long as you respond graciously to correction if you slip up. There’s a big difference between accidentally dropping a “he” or a “dude” and maliciously referring to someone as the wrong gender to get under their skin — another area where the rules will be there to offer more granularity.
Proviso: I'm increasingly noticing that people are putting profiles on private.
- I am going to violence (badperson) tonight. - Obviously Out
- I'm glad someone violenced (badperson). - As seen in the Kissinger thread
- I wish the person that violenced (badperson) had done a better job. - I think this was an infraction in the trump assassination thread.
- I hope someone violences (badperson). - I have seen this infracted
- I'm surprised nobody has violenced (badperson) yet. - I delete my posts when I find myself writing this, but it feels like it should be okay.
Examples: I am a little disappointed that nobody in red states has tarred and feathered their government over voter suppression issues. I am surprised that nobody seems to seek vengeance when a cop gets away with murder. I'm happy the healthcare ceo was shot.Obviously there is a lot of nuance to this, with degrees of violence and specificity of action, along with figures of speech, but it should be adressed.
Yeah, it's far from a perfect system and I'm looking forward to having a better one, but as someone who does regularly check, I find it worth noting.
Pronouns will be visible on the author section of each post
I do agree that the CoC should probably touch on it in some form or another. It doesn't need to define the exact paramaters, that can be a rules thing, but just something about "not endorsing violence" or whatnot would be keen. I mean, at the very least there should be something that bars 1 (and I have thoughts on how I'd like to see 2-5 handled, but that's probably a bit in the weeds at this point).
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
One concern I have is the vagueness of "all communication styles". It is often the case on internet forums that an otherwise well-intentioned user prefers a communication style that amounts to immediate hostility at the slightest prompting. They may not technically violate any rules, but they tend to have a chilling effect on discussion and result in a feedback loop of escalating toxicity. This causes threads in which such a user participates to gradually empty out until the only users participating are the ones willing to "wrestle the pig", so to speak.
The Code of Conduct does a little work addressing this indirectly, but I feel like it might be a good idea to clarify that no, being a ubiquitous asshole actually is a problem all its own, even if it's your "communication style". It's the Walter Sobchak effect -- their opinions may even be correct and in line with community values, but their unchecked aggression still has a net-negative impact on the forum's ability to sustain a larger community. "Am I wrong? Am I wrong?" is not a sufficient response from such a user. If people (including moderators!) clench up when they see a notification that you replied to a thread, then yes that is a problem even if you're technically within the letter of the law.
I don't have specific suggestions at this time, especially because I don't think I'm saying anything the CR team wouldn't agree with on a broad conceptual level. But I feel like the document as written maybe doesn't communicate that clearly enough, and (in my experience moderating other forums) it's really in the top 3 biggest moderation issues any forum faces.
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If we look at the idea of Connectedness, and then apply that to one person effectively shitting up every discussion they wade into at the expense of everyone else, does that feel like it runs counter to the spirit of the Value? If we look at Self-Expression, does this one user’s right to self-expression somehow excuse the fact that they’re curtailing the same right for others by driving them away consistently? Equity and Empathy could be weighed the same way. Is it equitable to the rest of the community to force them to contend with an angry screamer who flies off the handle in every discussion? Does it show empathy for the people who are being silenced by that kind of behavior being allowed?
Having those broad values as the foundation of everything else helps our moderation staff to be able to step back, look at the bigger picture, and hopefully make a better call for how an edge case aligns to our values, rather than throwing their hands up and saying “sorry, it’s not technically against the rules.” And those edge cases are exactly what the rules should flesh out in more depth, because those situations will be backed up by the spirit of our values.
Thank you so much Delz, Synd, and Minor.
yeah trying to codify every example of good or bad behavior is a fool's errand and only really serves to enable obnoxious rules lawyering because you create holes in the net
but the CoC and Values as a whole inform what is meant by acceptable communication styles. any particular style would need to also adhere to the spirit of the rules laid out by the rest of the text
Yeah, part of the difficulty there is balancing "people have a variety of thoughts on stuff like this that they can express, especially with the general bent of the forum's political views" versus "the admins don't want to be on a first-name basis with the Secret Service" and how exactly that line gets drawn.
Yeah, it's both very important and very difficult, especially when you run up against someone who isn't actively trying to be a dick, it's just... being an abrasive dick is kind of their vibe and they legit probably don't know how to stop. Figuring out how to maximize fairness to everyone is... a challenge.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
I really appreciate the work y'all are doing here.
I know you talked about this somewhere but I can't remember where and I wanted to check something quickly. It is an open field for things to be entered into yes? I am assuming yes but figured asking can't cause a bunch of harm.
Yeah I knew the rule would be the case. I just wanted to make sure it was able to be used by as many people as possible. I will never be comfortable using "it" as a pronoun for a person, but I do want to make sure that person has it as an option.
This should be an And, not Or.
[puts on Hat of Pedantry]
[takes off Hat of Pedantry]
Speaking personally this is a reaction to some more recent events and not wanting to allow easy ways for people to pull up "receipts" as so to weaponize screenshots off-forum etc. If someone really wants to tangle with the Vanilla search function, fine I guess but...
With that being said, now that it's been established that said behavior is Not Okay, and especially on the new forums specifically since we're not doing a content port, I don't anticipate having to take that measure. ESPECIALLY with this Values and Code of Conduct document. Pretty much covers everything, and the suggestions already made are deffo good.