I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community. Its not like DnD is especially scholarly or whatever.
Maybe it's the threads I'm in but I genuinely can't remember the last time I saw a meme in SE
Maybe they're all hiding out in the YouTube thread?
Go look at the last two pages of the movie thread to see two examples of someone responding with memes.
Are we looking at the same thread? I don't see any of that.
Yes, a lot of users have left the forums entirely recently
A lot more will probably fall off in the transition; I personally plan to claim my username and then either lurk or just take a break from forum use for some time. I recommend a lot of people give that shot actually, if you've been feeling down or out of sorts when engaging with the forums.
Also, the SE discord has become my preference for chatting, shooting off a quick message or having a conversation about movies music whatever is easier on discord because it's a chat app, not a message board
I guess I might ask that if there are threads in D&D that aren't strictly on-topic, as a base assumption, why should they continue to be situated in the On-Topic sub-forum?
And, honestly, same question for SE++ with threads that are off-topic.
Because I'm currently reading conflicting messages that an On-Topic tag is tantamount to just issuing a D&D tag onto a thread itself, while also seeing folks mentioning that there are threads within D&D that don't follow the sub-forum's designation?
Other then [chat] there is no thread in D&D that doesn't have some kind of topic. That topic can be broad, like "movies" or "US congress" or "Elon Musk". Or it can be fairly specific, like "US immigration policy" or "Red Dwarf". But there's always something.
And you would aver that these threads never go off topic?
I think we need to stop framing this as "some threads in D&D go off-topic, therefore SE and D&D are just the same."
The degree of off-topicness varies by thread, and also the nature of off-topicness varies by thread, and not all threads behave the same, but there are definitely distinct styles pertaining to how the conversation pertains to the stated topic in SE vs D&D. I don't think there's anything to be gained from pretending that there's no difference. If you pop into, say, the SE movies thread and the D&D movies thread and can't see a difference in how the conversation feels, I maintain you're not paying very close attention.
Like seriously, anyone who wants to see the difference, go look at the last couple pages of the SE movie thread and the last couple pages of the D&D movie thread. They are very different in tone and style. It's not necessarily about "off-topicness" or anything, but they are not the same at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with the SE one, but I would much rather be in the D&D one.
This is why a media sub forum could have threads like [now showing] and [film criticism] and have room for both, with specific purposes, and less risk of getting pushed off the main page by the far more broad topics on SE and D&D that make the mega threads the most viable way to talk.
There doesn’t just have to be The Movies Megathread.
In D&D, there were lots of different ways of discussing movies over the years, and having a single "movies" thread along with separate threads for individual movies that generated a lot of chatter was worked best for how the people there like talking about movies.
The problem with something like separate "analysis" and "now-showing" threads is that it doesn't match up with how the people like to have conversations. A conversation will go like "I saw a movie yesterday, here's a lengthy review on it" and then some people will talk about their own analyses for a bit and then someone will be like, "This movie was just a bad imitation of <obscure French movie from 1963> and the some people will talk about how it was robbed of the Palme D'Or and now we're talking about Truffaut's oeuvre for a while before someone makes an Indy fridge joke and now we're talking about how the recent Indy game was actually the third best Indy film. And none of that really functions the same unless the topic is just "movies". And honestly, none of that functions the same if you have the topic of "movies" but in SE, because that's generally not the sort of vibe you get in there.
Which I know, because every time the question of SE and D&D being different comes up, I double check by looking at the SE and D&D movie threads to make sure I'm not crazy, and they always look very different. To the point that it's now my Subforum Difference Reference Thread.
Edit: To be clear, I am well-versed in how movie discussions go, because Tube hated megathreads and I constantly had to fight to keep it because he was like, "just make separate threads for each movie, what's the big deal." Like, imagine if you're chatting with a friend about movie stuff and someone keeps popping in to say, "Hey, you were talking about Bullitt, stop trying to talk about Ronin now just because they both have excellent car chases. You have to go to a different room to talk about Ronin."
See this seems weird to me because this sounds exactly like what I would expect out of the SE movie thread
I don't mean this to sound like a slight, because I don't think you're willfully misreading me or anything, but I keep feeling like I'm pointing to a cat and a goat and going "You see there are obvious differences, right?" and people are like, "They both have four legs and fur, what are you talking about?"
Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
Yes, a lot of users have left the forums entirely recently
So the previous examples of "combining the forum cultures" and decisions that arose from that conversation caused lots of people to leave within SE++.
So in response, the majority view of the community that lost all of those people is to combine more? And a lot of members of that community are now saying there really aren't significant cultural differences between SE++ and D&D beyond "off topic" and "on topic"?
Isn't the fact that people quit the forums entirely in response to this stuff a bright flashing neon sign that there are cultural differences? The ones I saw announce their departures weren't upset about having to post more on topic in some threads in the future.
+1
QuetziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderatormod
I guess I might ask that if there are threads in D&D that aren't strictly on-topic, as a base assumption, why should they continue to be situated in the On-Topic sub-forum?
And, honestly, same question for SE++ with threads that are off-topic.
Because I'm currently reading conflicting messages that an On-Topic tag is tantamount to just issuing a D&D tag onto a thread itself, while also seeing folks mentioning that there are threads within D&D that don't follow the sub-forum's designation?
Other then [chat] there is no thread in D&D that doesn't have some kind of topic. That topic can be broad, like "movies" or "US congress" or "Elon Musk". Or it can be fairly specific, like "US immigration policy" or "Red Dwarf". But there's always something.
And you would aver that these threads never go off topic?
I think we need to stop framing this as "some threads in D&D go off-topic, therefore SE and D&D are just the same."
The degree of off-topicness varies by thread, and also the nature of off-topicness varies by thread, and not all threads behave the same, but there are definitely distinct styles pertaining to how the conversation pertains to the stated topic in SE vs D&D. I don't think there's anything to be gained from pretending that there's no difference. If you pop into, say, the SE movies thread and the D&D movies thread and can't see a difference in how the conversation feels, I maintain you're not paying very close attention.
Like seriously, anyone who wants to see the difference, go look at the last couple pages of the SE movie thread and the last couple pages of the D&D movie thread. They are very different in tone and style. It's not necessarily about "off-topicness" or anything, but they are not the same at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with the SE one, but I would much rather be in the D&D one.
This is why a media sub forum could have threads like [now showing] and [film criticism] and have room for both, with specific purposes, and less risk of getting pushed off the main page by the far more broad topics on SE and D&D that make the mega threads the most viable way to talk.
There doesn’t just have to be The Movies Megathread.
In D&D, there were lots of different ways of discussing movies over the years, and having a single "movies" thread along with separate threads for individual movies that generated a lot of chatter was worked best for how the people there like talking about movies.
The problem with something like separate "analysis" and "now-showing" threads is that it doesn't match up with how the people like to have conversations. A conversation will go like "I saw a movie yesterday, here's a lengthy review on it" and then some people will talk about their own analyses for a bit and then someone will be like, "This movie was just a bad imitation of <obscure French movie from 1963> and the some people will talk about how it was robbed of the Palme D'Or and now we're talking about Truffaut's oeuvre for a while before someone makes an Indy fridge joke and now we're talking about how the recent Indy game was actually the third best Indy film. And none of that really functions the same unless the topic is just "movies". And honestly, none of that functions the same if you have the topic of "movies" but in SE, because that's generally not the sort of vibe you get in there.
Which I know, because every time the question of SE and D&D being different comes up, I double check by looking at the SE and D&D movie threads to make sure I'm not crazy, and they always look very different. To the point that it's now my Subforum Difference Reference Thread.
Edit: To be clear, I am well-versed in how movie discussions go, because Tube hated megathreads and I constantly had to fight to keep it because he was like, "just make separate threads for each movie, what's the big deal." Like, imagine if you're chatting with a friend about movie stuff and someone keeps popping in to say, "Hey, you were talking about Bullitt, stop trying to talk about Ronin now just because they both have excellent car chases. You have to go to a different room to talk about Ronin."
See this seems weird to me because this sounds exactly like what I would expect out of the SE movie thread
I don't mean this to sound like a slight, because I don't think you're willfully misreading me or anything, but I keep feeling like I'm pointing to a cat and a goat and going "You see there are obvious differences, right?" and people are like, "They both have four legs and fur, what are you talking about?"
Like, I just read the two most recent pages of both threads
They feel incredibly similar in tone, topic, and style
Almost any post from the D&D thread would fit readily into the SE thread, and at least to me it seems like the reverse is true as well, though I've spent much less time in the D&D thread
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
So those are the top two off my mind that are rules that shape culture.
But the question then is if you are okay with those rules and feel there is no difference would experiment by posting in a D&D thread of a topic?
I think this is the thing. I can bring up small stuff and everyone will go, "oh that is fine" or "people won't riot over that."
But we have seen people riot over D&D rules. Push back or claim they are being persecuted because of preferred posting of things I just pointed out.
I think what gets ignored is a lot of posters are like, "SE++ is fine with this, why aren't you okay with our way posting?" And my response is I am okay with it. But it isn't where I want to spend my time for things and the style and focus how posting has developed in D&D especially around politics but a lot of other subjects is the space I prefer to kill time. It works with how I think. And the differences less brazen than they were 10 years ago but they are still there.
I think all of us can agree we are in communities. I think we all can agree that those communities have had parallel but different development in personality and culture. And we can all agree we want to keep people in both communities. And that last one should lead to, "we want to keep both communities without one supplanting the other."
And the easiest bit to make sure we reach that last sentence is a few changes to the initial structure as possible. Let the community settle into its new digs. And start adjusting based on what is there.
If we take feedback and the initial survey and all the other data points we are arguing as a need assessment for an intervention one thing that is showing up is a small but loud group for change, a large group not responding and a slightly larger group looking to maintain current systems.
And to me the least harm action there is the lowest level of change possible.
Also we can say "but SE++" posts memes or whatever but damn if I haven't seen "the cruelty is the point" posted in response to every evil thing a republican does ever since Serwer wrote that.
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
I thought we said the holiday forum wasn't a good role model for what this merge could look like? Just a couple pages ago folks were trying to be reassuring saying that
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
The movie threads during the holiday forums (this year and previously) are probably what I would cite as my primary reason for wanting to see that aspect of the forums merged together. I always enjoy the hell out of them, and inevitably try and read the D&D thread for a bit afterwards and fall off because it's in a different place.
Just for me personally, there's one, and only reason why I don't read the Christmas forum as much as I regularly do: My browser bookmarks break.
Otherwise I find great enjoyment out of seeing different personalities I usually don't, or old personalities that have disappeared off to other parts of the forum.
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
I thought we said the holiday forum wasn't a good role model for what this merge could look like? Just a couple pages ago folks were trying to be reassuring saying that
As a whole sure, but when we're talking about a specific thread that would get merged into one in any proposal that merges D&D and SE this is a good example of how there isn't a culture that makes two threads necessary.
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
Could you cite it? Perfectly willing to believe that I missed it, I've been dipping in and out of the discussion as time allows. But also I generally know SE people to be cool about things, and saw SE posters asking to drop nicknames in the Luigi thread, so? Could be a few folks who personally disagree?
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
The movie threads during the holiday forums (this year and previously) are probably what I would cite as my primary reason for wanting to see that aspect of the forums merged together. I always enjoy the hell out of them, and inevitably try and read the D&D thread for a bit afterwards and fall off because it's in a different place.
Genuinely the holiday forums and merged threads are what gave me a lot of optimism for what a combined culture could look like. It was great to see movement in things like the selfie thread.
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
Could you cite it? Perfectly willing to believe that I missed it, I've been dipping in and out of the discussion as time allows. But also I generally know SE people to be cool about things, and saw SE posters asking to drop nicknames in the Luigi thread, so? Could be a few folks who personally disagree?
I'll probably have to search through my posts as the easiest method, and don't think I can do that in mobile. I'll try to remember later, but no guarantee
As I've said, I think there are many threads where the styles are similar enough, or compatible enough, or the subject matter amenable enough, that merging them would work well. I think the movie thread might be one of those, even though I think the styles (which I would probably label as "film buffs chatting at the Cannes" vs "film buffs chatting at home after a few drinks") are different right now.
Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
Could you cite it? Perfectly willing to believe that I missed it, I've been dipping in and out of the discussion as time allows. But also I generally know SE people to be cool about things, and saw SE posters asking to drop nicknames in the Luigi thread, so? Could be a few folks who personally disagree?
I'll probably have to search through my posts as the easiest method, and don't think I can do that in mobile. I'll try to remember later, but no guarantee
That's fine (and probably good evidence you've got a life outside the forums, lucky you! )
Yes, a lot of users have left the forums entirely recently
So the previous examples of "combining the forum cultures" and decisions that arose from that conversation caused lots of people to leave within SE++.
So in response, the majority view of the community that lost all of those people is to combine more? And a lot of members of that community are now saying there really aren't significant cultural differences between SE++ and D&D beyond "off topic" and "on topic"?
Isn't the fact that people quit the forums entirely in response to this stuff a bright flashing neon sign that there are cultural differences? The ones I saw announce their departures weren't upset about having to post more on topic in some threads in the future.
No, that's not why people left, multiple people left the forums for multiple reasons in the recent past, I don't think anyone left out of fear of having to deal with the learned scholars of debate and discourse
Hey, so I asked a pretty straightforward question, and you seemed to be responding to me. So I'm confused by the hostility on the follow up?
I was trying to figure out if the posters who were concerned about the forum merge, who were vocally talking about the cultural differences in these threads between the two and their concerns and are no longer doing so, left as a result of those changes.
You responded by saying "Yes, a lot of users have left the forums entirely recently". In the context of my question, that sounded like they were related.
But you chose to respond by being sarcastic and condescending, which is lame and not productive towards this discussion. You seem to have some sort of engrained negative view of what a "D&D poster" is by how quickly you jumped to turning the conversation towards sarcastic insults instead of making any attempt whatsoever to engage me in a good faith conversation as I was trying to do with you.
Yes this does contribute to me continuing to think there are some cultural divides between the forums, as you clearly see the two sets of posters as different.
Yes, a lot of users have left the forums entirely recently
So the previous examples of "combining the forum cultures" and decisions that arose from that conversation caused lots of people to leave within SE++.
So in response, the majority view of the community that lost all of those people is to combine more? And a lot of members of that community are now saying there really aren't significant cultural differences between SE++ and D&D beyond "off topic" and "on topic"?
Isn't the fact that people quit the forums entirely in response to this stuff a bright flashing neon sign that there are cultural differences? The ones I saw announce their departures weren't upset about having to post more on topic in some threads in the future.
No, that's not why people left, multiple people left the forums for multiple reasons in the recent past, I don't think anyone left out of fear of having to deal with the learned scholars of debate and discourse
Again, let's not use a passive-aggressive tone in our posts here, in the structure thread.
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
The movie threads during the holiday forums (this year and previously) are probably what I would cite as my primary reason for wanting to see that aspect of the forums merged together. I always enjoy the hell out of them, and inevitably try and read the D&D thread for a bit afterwards and fall off because it's in a different place.
Genuinely the holiday forums and merged threads are what gave me a lot of optimism for what a combined culture could look like. It was great to see movement in things like the selfie thread.
So...this is the thing I will say as a person who is like 90% D&D, 5% SE++, and a small amount on the rest.
The Holiday Forums in part because of the old rules of what can be there and what can't traditionally especially since a lot of D&D's bread and butter (politics, current event, hot topic on topic threads) go away you get basically a site wide SE++ feel.
Its more chill than in the past. But it is very much SE++ more than D&D in feel and tone. And lots of D&D folks here in this thread and in other spots have said they skip the Holiday forums for that exact reason.
And if you post mostly in SE++ I can see how the Holiday forums seem like they are working well but we have less traffic and a lot of folks from one of the largest sub-forums just taking a break.
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
The movie threads during the holiday forums (this year and previously) are probably what I would cite as my primary reason for wanting to see that aspect of the forums merged together. I always enjoy the hell out of them, and inevitably try and read the D&D thread for a bit afterwards and fall off because it's in a different place.
Genuinely the holiday forums and merged threads are what gave me a lot of optimism for what a combined culture could look like. It was great to see movement in things like the selfie thread.
And other people feel the opposite.
And last time this was brought up earlier today, people argued the Holiday Forums weren't a good example of what a merged forum would feel like in response to those concerns.
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
The movie threads during the holiday forums (this year and previously) are probably what I would cite as my primary reason for wanting to see that aspect of the forums merged together. I always enjoy the hell out of them, and inevitably try and read the D&D thread for a bit afterwards and fall off because it's in a different place.
Genuinely the holiday forums and merged threads are what gave me a lot of optimism for what a combined culture could look like. It was great to see movement in things like the selfie thread.
So...this is the thing I will say as a person who is like 90% D&D, 5% SE++, and a small amount on the rest.
The Holiday Forums in part because of the old rules of what can be there and what can't traditionally especially since a lot of D&D's bread and butter (politics, current event, hot topic on topic threads) go away you get basically a site wide SE++ feel.
Its more chill than in the past. But it is very much SE++ more than D&D in feel and tone. And lots of D&D folks here in this thread and in other spots have said they skip the Holiday forums for that exact reason.
And if you post mostly in SE++ I can see how the Holiday forums seem like they are working well but we have less traffic and a lot of folks from one of the largest sub-forums just taking a break.
D&D is the largest subforum by posts and population, by far. I'd have to check the metrics, but I think it's the population and posts of SE++ and G&T combined. I was surprised when I saw it.
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
Could you cite it? Perfectly willing to believe that I missed it, I've been dipping in and out of the discussion as time allows. But also I generally know SE people to be cool about things, and saw SE posters asking to drop nicknames in the Luigi thread, so? Could be a few folks who personally disagree?
I'll probably have to search through my posts as the easiest method, and don't think I can do that in mobile. I'll try to remember later, but no guarantee
That's fine (and probably good evidence you've got a life outside the forums, lucky you! )
It was over making a rule saying that reposting content from off site needed to have context always that caused a disagreement.
The general sentiment of "certain topics warrant additional context when posting a tweet" was not generally disputed.
The issue was folks were able to list several contexts in which it felt like a stifling rule (such as memes or if you posted a tweet from a prominent vtuber in the vtuber thread).
So "always" became the point of contention.
maybe the real panopticon was the friends we made along the way
Half the Luigi thread wanted to discuss the news and half wanted to shoot the shit, it doesn't really mean anything
I think that does mean something!
Half the people want to talk about the event and focus on it! Others want to talk about and their day and shoot the shit.
Those are two conflicting goals. One is people discussing something in their way and others in their way and it doesn't really fit together.
It doesn't mean anything that requires a forum divide. You can have a thread about the societal breakdown fueled by rampant exploitation and you can have a thread about lol this dude sucks and ate shit.
DnD's answer to about 75% of this is "go make another thread" as is.
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
These are community standards that can be managed and largely agreed on and smoothed out without a forum divide. "No nicknames for political figures" isn't going to cause some mass exodus for SE++ regulars.
The community you have now is shedding people, and pretty regularly they're clear this is because of the way the forum is built and/or ran. Train is already moving
Realistically "add context to your links" and "don't use nicknames for figures" is something i don't think you'd see any argument from SE folks about
Maybe a little much for like, a Vtuber thread? But otherwise adding a sentence on a tweet from some random isn't an onerous ask.
There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
Could you cite it? Perfectly willing to believe that I missed it, I've been dipping in and out of the discussion as time allows. But also I generally know SE people to be cool about things, and saw SE posters asking to drop nicknames in the Luigi thread, so? Could be a few folks who personally disagree?
I'll probably have to search through my posts as the easiest method, and don't think I can do that in mobile. I'll try to remember later, but no guarantee
That's fine (and probably good evidence you've got a life outside the forums, lucky you! )
I don't think it matters whether the two threads look exactly the same, its whether they look mutually compatible, and they very much do. Dividing up the forum based on culture or whatever comes with downsides. Need to get more out of it than "these two threads talking about the same stuff are a little different".
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
I thought we said the holiday forum wasn't a good role model for what this merge could look like? Just a couple pages ago folks were trying to be reassuring saying that
There's a significant difference between equating a forum restructure as a whole to the act of merging all forums for the holiday hangout, compared to using a single thread with all parties merged together (like the movie thread) as an example of how a shared movie thread could work pretty well.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
As I've said, I think there are many threads where the styles are similar enough, or compatible enough, or the subject matter amenable enough, that merging them would work well. I think the movie thread might be one of those, even though I think the styles (which I would probably label as "film buffs chatting at the Cannes" vs "film buffs chatting at home after a few drinks") are different right now.
Did you seriously just do this
What is in your farts? Please do operate heavy machinery under the influence of whatever it is
I don't really think that characterization is accurate. 95% of threads on either side is people just saying stuff. Rules like the "no memes" thing mostly just comes down to visual aesthetics and its a poor basis for dividing a community.
I disagree.
And it is about aesthetics. Its about thoughts on how a discussion should be handled. How people want to interact with a topic and a thread.
Its the same reason we have rules about just posting xitter without context in D&D in threads. Or no nicknames for people we are discussing. For some decorum is grating. For others it produces a discussion we are looking for. And for some it does allow them to walk the line on trolling but not cross it.
But overall it is a different way to discuss things than SE++. And it isn't on topic verse off topic. Its different vibe. And I hate saying that but it is true. And people like the vibes they have! This idea we have squash that and force integration again seems like trying to enforce one's style over another.
And I think we know that sheds people. First we focus on maintaining as much of the community we have now. That should always be our main goal. You shed more by change then maintaining something comfortable.
Now that's a different issue. What you are saying is "if there's a merge, the entire forum will become SE++ and filled with low-quality posting". I do think that SE++ has changed somewhat and can hold a serious conversation, and I don't see why rules like "don't post Twitter posts without fully quoting and adding something"* and "don't use nicknames for public figures since it makes conversation hard to parse" can't be forum-wide.
*Also could encourage less "Twitter hot takes" posting.
I’d invite you to read the Luigi thread in the Holiday forums if you would like an example of the pushback against sourcing and commentary on twitter links.
If you mean the post where somebody posted a tweet from a doctor about a news article that somebody doubted was really a doctor with no evidence when that twitter user is verifiably a doctor, I don't think that's a very good example.
The Holiday Forums in part because of the old rules of what can be there and what can't traditionally especially since a lot of D&D's bread and butter (politics, current event, hot topic on topic threads) go away you get basically a site wide SE++ feel.
So my read of this, to paraphrase, is "when these handful of topics are not allowed things feel much more like SE"
Which to me implies you think the difference is topical, not cultural.
Is that an accurate read of this statement, and accurate interpretation of your position?
maybe the real panopticon was the friends we made along the way
+1
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
i think it's important to have a space for Focused Discussion (call it whatever) and a space for Loose Discussion (call it whatever) rather than having a Discussion space with both that needs to be navigated and monitored specifically to ensure each thread is maintained accordingly
if that means two Economy threads in different places but only one Job thread and then the Movie thread is in a third space for media, that's all fine to me. i'm not beholden to any specific thread needing to be in a specific place
i also think it's important to have a chat thread where politics, doomposting, and dumping your grievances about other threads are discouraged behaviors so people have that kind of a space to hang out in. i have no preference where that thread would live (this point i don't feel has been terribly contentious)
As I've said, I think there are many threads where the styles are similar enough, or compatible enough, or the subject matter amenable enough, that merging them would work well. I think the movie thread might be one of those, even though I think the styles (which I would probably label as "film buffs chatting at the Cannes" vs "film buffs chatting at home after a few drinks") are different right now.
Did you seriously just do this
What is in your farts? Please do operate heavy machinery under the influence of whatever it is
Seriously, (in general, to everyone) don't do this. Further posts in this nature or tone will get infractions.
In case it matters (it probably doesn't), most of the people I see advocating for a merge are people I recognize and thus consider "D&D people". I am 100% a "D&D people". And I thought the vibe of the Holiday Forum was great, albeit naturally certain aspects of it are best left temporary. Honestly for the most part I've thought the vibes of these planning threads have been great.
I don't think it's at all a case of SE++ people trying to make the whole place like SE++. For me, it's me seeing ways the SE++ crowd could enrich my experience and vice versa and feeling like it's a shame to miss out on that.
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Are we looking at the same thread? I don't see any of that.
A lot more will probably fall off in the transition; I personally plan to claim my username and then either lurk or just take a break from forum use for some time. I recommend a lot of people give that shot actually, if you've been feeling down or out of sorts when engaging with the forums.
Also, the SE discord has become my preference for chatting, shooting off a quick message or having a conversation about movies music whatever is easier on discord because it's a chat app, not a message board
I don't mean this to sound like a slight, because I don't think you're willfully misreading me or anything, but I keep feeling like I'm pointing to a cat and a goat and going "You see there are obvious differences, right?" and people are like, "They both have four legs and fur, what are you talking about?"
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So the previous examples of "combining the forum cultures" and decisions that arose from that conversation caused lots of people to leave within SE++.
So in response, the majority view of the community that lost all of those people is to combine more? And a lot of members of that community are now saying there really aren't significant cultural differences between SE++ and D&D beyond "off topic" and "on topic"?
Isn't the fact that people quit the forums entirely in response to this stuff a bright flashing neon sign that there are cultural differences? The ones I saw announce their departures weren't upset about having to post more on topic in some threads in the future.
Like, I just read the two most recent pages of both threads
They feel incredibly similar in tone, topic, and style
Almost any post from the D&D thread would fit readily into the SE thread, and at least to me it seems like the reverse is true as well, though I've spent much less time in the D&D thread
The movie thread in the Christmas forums was good and it had people from both sides posting regularly and there wasn't a noticeable difference.
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There was a LOT of pushback on this in another thread here, maybe one of the CoC ones? I forget.
I'd be very surprised if the consensus has changed so much, so my suspicion is that you're probably wrong here.
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So those are the top two off my mind that are rules that shape culture.
But the question then is if you are okay with those rules and feel there is no difference would experiment by posting in a D&D thread of a topic?
I think this is the thing. I can bring up small stuff and everyone will go, "oh that is fine" or "people won't riot over that."
But we have seen people riot over D&D rules. Push back or claim they are being persecuted because of preferred posting of things I just pointed out.
I think what gets ignored is a lot of posters are like, "SE++ is fine with this, why aren't you okay with our way posting?" And my response is I am okay with it. But it isn't where I want to spend my time for things and the style and focus how posting has developed in D&D especially around politics but a lot of other subjects is the space I prefer to kill time. It works with how I think. And the differences less brazen than they were 10 years ago but they are still there.
I think all of us can agree we are in communities. I think we all can agree that those communities have had parallel but different development in personality and culture. And we can all agree we want to keep people in both communities. And that last one should lead to, "we want to keep both communities without one supplanting the other."
And the easiest bit to make sure we reach that last sentence is a few changes to the initial structure as possible. Let the community settle into its new digs. And start adjusting based on what is there.
If we take feedback and the initial survey and all the other data points we are arguing as a need assessment for an intervention one thing that is showing up is a small but loud group for change, a large group not responding and a slightly larger group looking to maintain current systems.
And to me the least harm action there is the lowest level of change possible.
something something hand it to them
I thought we said the holiday forum wasn't a good role model for what this merge could look like? Just a couple pages ago folks were trying to be reassuring saying that
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The movie threads during the holiday forums (this year and previously) are probably what I would cite as my primary reason for wanting to see that aspect of the forums merged together. I always enjoy the hell out of them, and inevitably try and read the D&D thread for a bit afterwards and fall off because it's in a different place.
Otherwise I find great enjoyment out of seeing different personalities I usually don't, or old personalities that have disappeared off to other parts of the forum.
As a whole sure, but when we're talking about a specific thread that would get merged into one in any proposal that merges D&D and SE this is a good example of how there isn't a culture that makes two threads necessary.
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Could you cite it? Perfectly willing to believe that I missed it, I've been dipping in and out of the discussion as time allows. But also I generally know SE people to be cool about things, and saw SE posters asking to drop nicknames in the Luigi thread, so? Could be a few folks who personally disagree?
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Genuinely the holiday forums and merged threads are what gave me a lot of optimism for what a combined culture could look like. It was great to see movement in things like the selfie thread.
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I'll probably have to search through my posts as the easiest method, and don't think I can do that in mobile. I'll try to remember later, but no guarantee
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Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
That's fine (and probably good evidence you've got a life outside the forums, lucky you!
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Hey, so I asked a pretty straightforward question, and you seemed to be responding to me. So I'm confused by the hostility on the follow up?
I was trying to figure out if the posters who were concerned about the forum merge, who were vocally talking about the cultural differences in these threads between the two and their concerns and are no longer doing so, left as a result of those changes.
You responded by saying "Yes, a lot of users have left the forums entirely recently". In the context of my question, that sounded like they were related.
But you chose to respond by being sarcastic and condescending, which is lame and not productive towards this discussion. You seem to have some sort of engrained negative view of what a "D&D poster" is by how quickly you jumped to turning the conversation towards sarcastic insults instead of making any attempt whatsoever to engage me in a good faith conversation as I was trying to do with you.
Yes this does contribute to me continuing to think there are some cultural divides between the forums, as you clearly see the two sets of posters as different.
Again, let's not use a passive-aggressive tone in our posts here, in the structure thread.
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So...this is the thing I will say as a person who is like 90% D&D, 5% SE++, and a small amount on the rest.
The Holiday Forums in part because of the old rules of what can be there and what can't traditionally especially since a lot of D&D's bread and butter (politics, current event, hot topic on topic threads) go away you get basically a site wide SE++ feel.
Its more chill than in the past. But it is very much SE++ more than D&D in feel and tone. And lots of D&D folks here in this thread and in other spots have said they skip the Holiday forums for that exact reason.
And if you post mostly in SE++ I can see how the Holiday forums seem like they are working well but we have less traffic and a lot of folks from one of the largest sub-forums just taking a break.
And other people feel the opposite.
And last time this was brought up earlier today, people argued the Holiday Forums weren't a good example of what a merged forum would feel like in response to those concerns.
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
I think that does mean something!
Half the people want to talk about the event and focus on it! Others want to talk about and their day and shoot the shit.
Those are two conflicting goals. One is people discussing something in their way and others in their way and it doesn't really fit together.
It was over making a rule saying that reposting content from off site needed to have context always that caused a disagreement.
The general sentiment of "certain topics warrant additional context when posting a tweet" was not generally disputed.
The issue was folks were able to list several contexts in which it felt like a stifling rule (such as memes or if you posted a tweet from a prominent vtuber in the vtuber thread).
So "always" became the point of contention.
It doesn't mean anything that requires a forum divide. You can have a thread about the societal breakdown fueled by rampant exploitation and you can have a thread about lol this dude sucks and ate shit.
DnD's answer to about 75% of this is "go make another thread" as is.
Here you go:
https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/46873060#Comment_46873060
I will note that the OP of that thread established that it was supposed to be a more casual thread in the style of the SE Kissinger thread
Obviously we didn't keep to that, but those were the initial terms that were set and would theoretically be a model for tagging or similar
There's a significant difference between equating a forum restructure as a whole to the act of merging all forums for the holiday hangout, compared to using a single thread with all parties merged together (like the movie thread) as an example of how a shared movie thread could work pretty well.
.... "do" is a typo I hope?
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If you mean the post where somebody posted a tweet from a doctor about a news article that somebody doubted was really a doctor with no evidence when that twitter user is verifiably a doctor, I don't think that's a very good example.
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So my read of this, to paraphrase, is "when these handful of topics are not allowed things feel much more like SE"
Which to me implies you think the difference is topical, not cultural.
Is that an accurate read of this statement, and accurate interpretation of your position?
if that means two Economy threads in different places but only one Job thread and then the Movie thread is in a third space for media, that's all fine to me. i'm not beholden to any specific thread needing to be in a specific place
i also think it's important to have a chat thread where politics, doomposting, and dumping your grievances about other threads are discouraged behaviors so people have that kind of a space to hang out in. i have no preference where that thread would live (this point i don't feel has been terribly contentious)
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I don't think it's at all a case of SE++ people trying to make the whole place like SE++. For me, it's me seeing ways the SE++ crowd could enrich my experience and vice versa and feeling like it's a shame to miss out on that.