Sir FabulousMalevolent Squid GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 7
Hi everyone,
I have finished the spreadsheet up to the point the Q&A thread is currently sitting at.
I do sincerely hope this has been of help to members of our community! I know it's helped me form some strong opinions on who I would most like to see guide our community through the transition to CoRe.
I apologize if you have any disagreements with the way I summarized questions or answers. Especially near the end, there were some questions that were very similar but not quite the same as previous questions and I had to make personal judgement calls about what to include, where.
I especially apologize for not including questions that were directed specifically toward only one or two candidates. These are still valuable questions, but I didn't know how to include them in a fair way in the spreadsheet.
If you do have issues, don't hesitate to send me a PM. I can't promise I will spend more time on this, as I've already dedicated something like 20 hours to the spreadsheet already, but I absolutely value fair and honest criticism.
Of special note: I noticed that sometimes, candidates were responding to questions by reacting to another candidate's answer instead of writing up their own posts.
I noticed this a little late to include, but if any candidates wanted to direct my attention to any posts in particular, I can update the sheet with a simple 'agrees with "x"s statement on this matter.'
All the best to our candidates and good luck! I'll be getting in my vote sometime tonight after spending even more time thinking about this.
Let me know if you think there's a good place to put this on the Coin Return forums themselves as well.
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
I overall agree with this, but again, still want @ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
I overall agree with this, but again, still want @ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Honestly, the only thing horrific is someone wrote up a 20 page post about an internet message board mod because they at times moderated and that her supposed friends are egging her on rather than begging her to seek perspective.
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
I overall agree with this, but again, still want @ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Honestly, the only thing horrific is someone wrote up a 20 page post about an internet message board mod because they at times moderated and that her supposed friends are egging her on rather than begging her to seek perspective.
Okay, I think I can speak pretty definitively on this.
I just spent the last week reading dozens and dozens of posts about how special this place is. About how this is a place where community comes first, and we care for each other, and we have to fight for the voices of the marginalized. About how we raised thousands of dollars and that's sooo amazing!
About how we might have to fight legal battles, putting our beliefs first, consequences be damned.
But, if somebody cares too much about this place, it's 'horrific'?
Which is it? Is this a special place which we deserve to invest our time and energy into? Or is it actually not that great? It's not a place to get too comfortable in?
Because every answer I read. HUNDREDS of answers. From every person up for candidacy. Was that the strength of the forums was diversity, community, and the chance to make things right.
Another common line, once again from pretty much every candidate, was that the moderation here has been fucked for years and needed to be fixed. So yeah. I can see why someone might have had a problem with moderation. It seems like it's not a big fucking secret.
So, please, let me know if anyone here was just saying platitudes in order to make a power grab on an internet forum...
Let me know the ACCEPTABLE amount to care about this place, so I can be sure not to get too invested in the future. Because if it's horrific to care about the forums why the fuck was I excited to vote earlier today?
I don't know Lanz. I'm not a 'friend' of Lanz. But I think, actually, that she should be allowed to make an emotional appeal here instead of being asked to sit down and shut up.
You can't have it both ways. This place can't be important enough to love, but not important enough to hate.
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
I overall agree with this, but again, still want @ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Honestly, the only thing horrific is someone wrote up a 20 page post about an internet message board mod because they at times moderated and that her supposed friends are egging her on rather than begging her to seek perspective.
What a horrible way to talk about someone having a traumatic response to another person's behaviour. I really hope you're treated with much more grace if you ever find yourself in such a situation.
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
I overall agree with this, but again, still want @ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Honestly, the only thing horrific is someone wrote up a 20 page post about an internet message board mod because they at times moderated and that her supposed friends are egging her on rather than begging her to seek perspective.
Yes, getting upset about about online social interactions and an internet forum election is silly. Good thing you've stayed above all that, right?
I don't understand what this post is even meant to achieve, beyond spreading a little more bile and hostility around. You keep leaping to Jeffe's defence, but you're just being sarcastic and hostile. Do you think that will convince anyone? Do you think this cheer squad is going to win him any votes? Convince any bystanders that Jeffe is the sensible, reasonable voice here? If you're trying to win him votes, or improve his reputation, you need to rethink your strategy. And if you're not, what are you even doing? Just shitting on people for the fun of it?
I was naive to assume that those traumatized or seriously wounded could let bygones be bygones and that a new home could make us forget our grievances and start fresh
You have no idea how gross this comes off, do you? You just do not get it. Saying you don't want to minimize anyone's feelings while posting this sort of shit is rank.
People got hurt. Repeteadly. Again, this past week alone saw a major breakdown out of 2* people, and another person get subjected to all kinds of harassment. That's what I'm aware of, alone. Because Jeffe decided that his need to be in power was worth throwing a massive drama bomb into everything, and multiple other posters lined up to go "Oh, this is fine. Screw the transition team. #TeamJeffe, we believe in spite".
So yeah, people don't want to let bygones be bygones because that's how we fucking got here in the first place. By ignoring this behavior until the rot had set in deep.
*Correction - it was 4. At least 4 that i can directly name (And again, I'm not going to, this is not my fucking place) had their weeks absolutely ruined by Jeffe's behavior.
I was naive to assume that those traumatized or seriously wounded could let bygones be bygones and that a new home could make us forget our grievances and start fresh
You have no idea how gross this comes off, do you? You just do not get it. Saying you don't want to minimize anyone's feelings while posting this sort of shit is rank.
People got hurt. Repeteadly. Again, this past week alone saw a major breakdown out of 2* people, and another person get subjected to all kinds of harassment. That's what I'm aware of, alone. Because Jeffe decided that his need to be in power was worth throwing a massive drama bomb into everything, and multiple other posters lined up to go "Oh, this is fine. Screw the transition team. #TeamJeffe, we believe in spite".
So yeah, people don't want to let bygones be bygones because that's how we fucking got here in the first place. By ignoring this behavior until the rot had set in deep.
*Correction - it was 4. At least 3 that i can directly name (And again, I'm not going to, this is not my fucking place) had their weeks absolutely ruined by Jeffe's behavior.
I do not think we can have productive conversation. Please do not talk to, or at me anymore. Thank you and be well.
If someone says they have been abused, it's weird to respond 'I wish people would stop saying they've been abused, it upsets me, can't they just let it go?' If you want to heal a wound, maybe the alleged stabber should stop reaching for a bigger knife, and his cheer squad should stop throwing salt at it?
A couple of weeks ago I thought Jeffe was a kinda shitty mod, but nobody's perfect and it's probably a hard job, oh well. These last few weeks though... how can anyone see Jeffe's shitty behaviour, which he constantly deflects, downplays his involvement, or straight up avoids answering for it, and think maybe everyone should just shut up and forgive him?
This shouldn't need to be said but any further shitposting in this thread is gonna cop some actual points. No stupid contextless videos or trying to bait reactions out of others. Knock it off. @Yellowhammer especially you, with two random images/vids on this page alone. But this goes for everyone else as well.
0
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Teamregular
I haven't said a single word about Jeffe here. Just now, I was attempting to find ways to press for answers that people were wanting from him, because I believe it's crucial. My entire goal has been to try to add context where I can, and to make sure that people were able to understand who they are voting for. I don't have any side, I don't have a clique, I'm not here to keep score. I think it's tragic that someone was so badly hurt by someone else here. But I don't think anyone will ever get the resolution they deserve.
I don't go in for this kind of doomsaying. It's just a hedge to give excuses to people to not ever change, citing "irreconcilable differences" when really the goal was never reconciliation, but contrition.
Do I believe Jeffe can change and therefore this can all get resolved? Yes, actually, I do, because I believe everyone is capable of change. Surely he would not have so many supporters if some folks didn't see something good about him, so yes, I have to believe that he is capable of change.
When we then examine why he isn't using that capability, it essentially comes down to motives and priorities. I can safely presume that at minimum, he does not feel that the acts are egregious enough for him to change (or withdraw), either because he doesn't believe they happened (or are an accurate representation of what happened) or because he doesn't believe his actions are inherently disqualifying.
Maybe I shouldn't presume, but also, the man in question has chosen not to say anything in response, so that's what we are left to do.
For my part, regardless of what I believed, if someone wrote a 20-page tirade about me, whether or not I felt I did any of the things that were said, it would at minimum disqualify me as a leader in a community-led community. Because I would hate to think that someone - anyone - felt the need to sit down and write all that down just to have their pain heard. Whether or not I agreed with their version of events, the notion that this was that important to someone would take precedence.
I'd hope every Board candidate would feel similarly. At the core, someone is hurting, and a refusal to take any action or conduct any self-reflection or display any remorse or even just say you're sorry is basically in essence saying that "your pain doesn't matter" or "your pain isn't real" or even "your pain is the point." None of those takes is something I would want on the Board.
I think a counterpoint is somewhat warranted here, even as I agree with some of what you wrote.
I agree that Yellowhammer's post feels very doomer. 1200 people have registered at the new home and maybe a couple dozen people have decided that this thunderdome forever war is a thing to actively participate in. The "we" unable to move on is vanishingly small, and if "we" are being honest, the largest problem the overall community has to endure or deal with at this point, the biggest flashpoint for moderators to manage, and the ones most likely to harm the overall effort that so many people put time into.
I think people change. I think all of us have changed here dramatically over the years, some more dramatic than others. It seems like the framing here is that the only mechanism available to ElJeffe to change, from this, is to step out of running or leave outright to satisfy a small but passionate group of members of this community who feel it is the only right thing that can happen. It sticks to the assumption that Lanz made in what she wrote, which I did read all of because I do feel she has a right to be heard, that Jeffe is the same Republican Apologist from over a decade ago. That he specifically is frozen in amber and a relic of the bad old days here. That has not been my observation, personally, or the observation of many in this community who would rather not wade into these waters and throw barbs and risk infractions and potential banning from their longtime home on the web.
So, I disagree that his only path to showing change is to do what a very small percentage of the overall community is yelling at him to do, or that people having serious issues with someone disqualifies them from running or representing the community, should the community vote for them. If we made it an official rule or standard that if anyone can write a 20 page tirade about a candidate, then that candidate would have to be disqualified, then I see probably 4-5 of the people in the running finding something like that posted because some folks don't like Kelor or Tef, and some folks don't like ElJeffe obviously... and I'm sure something has to come out about Amateurhour because nobody is actually that awesome all the time.
I truly think we just need to let the vote sort this out, and allow for the many hundreds of people who cast their votes be heard, and the few dozen of us who have spent significantly way too much time on this to allow it to conclude peacefully, and let the dust settle where it does. This is not doing the larger community any favors. I look forward to seeing what diverse, great candidates become our board no matter who wins, and trust that the mix of opinions and perspectives in the room are going to do a great job steering this thing into the next 20+ years of maeking post.
syndalis on
+5
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
Personally, I think it’s nice that the year one election discussion is housed exclusively at PAF. A last tribute to the place as well as giving CR a fresh start feeling.
I overall agree with this, but again, still want ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Honestly, the only thing horrific is someone wrote up a 20 page post about an internet message board mod because they at times moderated and that her supposed friends are egging her on rather than begging her to seek perspective.
Disagreeing with the contents of a post is fine but this kind of commentary about another user is not
i haven't said much on these forums about jeffe's candidacy because i assumed his actions this past week self-evidently showed his unfitness for being allowed in polite company, much less a position of leadership in any community
the lying, deflection, refusal to account for his behavior, and abuse of mod privileges while pretending to be a regular user are so far beyond anything any other candidate has done that it's genuinely insane that tef and kelor get mentioned in the same sentence
if you're using just the planning forum as your basis for determining how many people think jeffe needed to not let his gargantuan ego get in the way of core's elections and how massively he fucked that whole thing up, you're not getting the whole picture
i haven't said much on these forums about jeffe's candidacy because i assumed his actions this past week self-evidently showed his unfitness for being allowed in polite company, much less a position of leadership in any community
the lying, deflection, refusal to account for his behavior, and abuse of mod privileges while pretending to be a regular user are so far beyond anything any other candidate has done that it's genuinely insane that tef and kelor get mentioned in the same sentence
if you're using just the planning forum as your basis for determining how many people think jeffe needed to not let his gargantuan ego get in the way of core's elections and how massively he fucked that whole thing up, you're not getting the whole picture
Also it seems to be: hey there are only a few people putting their voices forward out of concern for the community, we should just let this go and move on!
but if there are a lot of voices coming forward it's: hey whoa what's with this coordinated dogpiling you guys.
As someone who cares but hasn't been talking about it with anyone, it's extremely disappointing to see how much effort is going into avoiding recognizing the problems being brought up.
if you're using just the planning forum as your basis for determining how many people think jeffe needed to not let his gargantuan ego get in the way of core's elections and how massively he fucked that whole thing up, you're not getting the whole picture
I am not, but neither should anyone be using the planning forum as a basis for knowing what people think about him from the other direction, or feel that they have the whole picture of how the broader community views this. The way I see it, there are a handful of people directly involved in all of this, a few dozen passionate enough about it to make posts about it one way or the other, and a larger group that has their opinions but don't want to wade into the shit.
None of us know if this even registers for the people who voted. More have already voted than I imagined in my best case scenario we would have had move to coin return at the very start.
It's going to be illuminating, regardless of how it pans out.
I think the thing that irks me the most is it's likely Jeffe has seen that post and hasn't made a single post addressing it.
Just like he hasn't made a post actually addressing the grenade he threw at this whole endeavor right before voting. Someone who has this community's best interest at heart would address these things as they come up. He has decided to ignore them.
He waited until the old forums basically broke to post a half hearted apology, not for the abuse of power, but for the blackmail accusations, and then he's been radio silent on here since.
I truly think we just need to let the vote sort this out, and allow for the many hundreds of people who cast their votes be heard, and the few dozen of us who have spent significantly way too much time on this to allow it to conclude peacefully, and let the dust settle where it does. This is not doing the larger community any favors. I look forward to seeing what diverse, great candidates become our board no matter who wins, and trust that the mix of opinions and perspectives in the room are going to do a great job steering this thing into the next 20+ years of maeking post.
If this was just a dustup over mild forum grudges, sure. That'd be fine
But we have a: serious ethics issues around the mod forum, and b: A well document sustained campaign of harassment of Lanz via abusing the mod position. These are not small things. These are not things that you can claim at any other candidate - for fucks sake, @Tef and I have argued pretty fiercely before and gotten some mutually bruised feelings out of things. I still do not agree with how Tef approaches some topics. But in those cases, they are cases where we've disagreed as adults, and i still think that he's a very strong candidate who's demonstrated stepping up and doing the best to preserve this space. Kelor can be antagonistic, but it's obviously coming form a place of caring about people, and again, that's something I think is worth while.
So to draw links between how Tef and Kelor have acted and what Jeffe has done is a: incredibly uncomfortable at best for the level of downplaying it does, and actively pretty gross at worst.
I can only conclude from a lot of posts from many people in this thread that they just do not see a problem with Jeffe's behavior - or that if there is a problem, it's worse that people brought up there's a problem than smiling and getting along. Both are profoundly disappointing.
I think a lot of people have been willing to let bygones be bygones. And things have been friendliee, but having one of the people who's moderation helped foster division run to be in charge of the new place isn't something that can be overlooked.
There are others running for the board who have constantly been 'turds in the punch bowl' and while I didn't vote for them I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. There are levels of responsibilty in the bad feelings on the boards and they can't all be overlooked.
Speaking of the upcoming election results, I am geeked out that (if I understand it correctly) with our new voting platform we will be able to see not just the final results but also a breakdown of vote transfers and such. I have never been part of an election where that is shown. I would very much like to see those mechanics posted over here (new thread?).
@minor incident are you the person who would be in a position to post the mechanics leading to the results? Are we still at ~500 votes (which is amazing in my opinion) or has there been another uptick since Saturday?
I continue to be confused how we can heal the schism by putting one of the people who fostered it back in charge. It feels like a transparently bad idea. That this problem has been basically unaddressed isn't helping me either. The vote ends tomorrow at midnight though. We will see what the people who voted want, and how everything shakes out at that point. I think we have gotten all the information we will get at this point.
+23
minor incidentpublicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
Speaking of the upcoming election results, I am geeked out that (if I understand it correctly) with our new voting platform we will be able to see not just the final results but also a breakdown of vote transfers and such. I have never been part of an election where that is shown. I would very much like to see those mechanics posted over here (new thread?).
@minor incident are you the person who would be in a position to post the mechanics leading to the results? Are we still at ~500 votes (which is amazing in my opinion) or has there been another uptick since Saturday?
I am. And my goal is to have them up ASAP after close of voting (hopefully the same night, barring any real life circumstances).
Last I checked yesterday we were at around 550 votes cast.
Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
Just gonna say the fixation that some participants in this process have shown for holding other members of this community to a higher standard of conduct than a literal, actual candidate for the Board demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for how this process is supposed to work.
I haven't said a single word about Jeffe here. Just now, I was attempting to find ways to press for answers that people were wanting from him, because I believe it's crucial. My entire goal has been to try to add context where I can, and to make sure that people were able to understand who they are voting for. I don't have any side, I don't have a clique, I'm not here to keep score. I think it's tragic that someone was so badly hurt by someone else here. But I don't think anyone will ever get the resolution they deserve.
I don't go in for this kind of doomsaying. It's just a hedge to give excuses to people to not ever change, citing "irreconcilable differences" when really the goal was never reconciliation, but contrition.
Do I believe Jeffe can change and therefore this can all get resolved? Yes, actually, I do, because I believe everyone is capable of change. Surely he would not have so many supporters if some folks didn't see something good about him, so yes, I have to believe that he is capable of change.
When we then examine why he isn't using that capability, it essentially comes down to motives and priorities. I can safely presume that at minimum, he does not feel that the acts are egregious enough for him to change (or withdraw), either because he doesn't believe they happened (or are an accurate representation of what happened) or because he doesn't believe his actions are inherently disqualifying.
Maybe I shouldn't presume, but also, the man in question has chosen not to say anything in response, so that's what we are left to do.
For my part, regardless of what I believed, if someone wrote a 20-page tirade about me, whether or not I felt I did any of the things that were said, it would at minimum disqualify me as a leader in a community-led community. Because I would hate to think that someone - anyone - felt the need to sit down and write all that down just to have their pain heard. Whether or not I agreed with their version of events, the notion that this was that important to someone would take precedence.
I'd hope every Board candidate would feel similarly. At the core, someone is hurting, and a refusal to take any action or conduct any self-reflection or display any remorse or even just say you're sorry is basically in essence saying that "your pain doesn't matter" or "your pain isn't real" or even "your pain is the point." None of those takes is something I would want on the Board.
I think a counterpoint is somewhat warranted here, even as I agree with some of what you wrote.
I agree that Yellowhammer's post feels very doomer. 1200 people have registered at the new home and maybe a couple dozen people have decided that this thunderdome forever war is a thing to actively participate in. The "we" unable to move on is vanishingly small, and if "we" are being honest, the largest problem the overall community has to endure or deal with at this point, the biggest flashpoint for moderators to manage, and the ones most likely to harm the overall effort that so many people put time into.
I think people change. I think all of us have changed here dramatically over the years, some more dramatic than others. It seems like the framing here is that the only mechanism available to ElJeffe to change, from this, is to step out of running or leave outright to satisfy a small but passionate group of members of this community who feel it is the only right thing that can happen. It sticks to the assumption that Lanz made in what she wrote, which I did read all of because I do feel she has a right to be heard, that Jeffe is the same Republican Apologist from over a decade ago. That he specifically is frozen in amber and a relic of the bad old days here. That has not been my observation, personally, or the observation of many in this community who would rather not wade into these waters and throw barbs and risk infractions and potential banning from their longtime home on the web.
So, I disagree that his only path to showing change is to do what a very small percentage of the overall community is yelling at him to do, or that people having serious issues with someone disqualifies them from running or representing the community, should the community vote for them. If we made it an official rule or standard that if anyone can write a 20 page tirade about a candidate, then that candidate would have to be disqualified, then I see probably 4-5 of the people in the running finding something like that posted because some folks don't like Kelor or Tef, and some folks don't like ElJeffe obviously... and I'm sure something has to come out about Amateurhour because nobody is actually that awesome all the time.
I truly think we just need to let the vote sort this out, and allow for the many hundreds of people who cast their votes be heard, and the few dozen of us who have spent significantly way too much time on this to allow it to conclude peacefully, and let the dust settle where it does. This is not doing the larger community any favors. I look forward to seeing what diverse, great candidates become our board no matter who wins, and trust that the mix of opinions and perspectives in the room are going to do a great job steering this thing into the next 20+ years of maeking post.
Yes. People can change. People can, over the course of years, be exposed to new ideas, new perspectives, new experiences, and learn from them and internalize them until they become much better, wiser, and kinder people than they were at the start. Tons of posters here--uncountably many--have undergone this growth process here. It's the number one reason why so many of us love and care about this community so much.
People can also spend those same years exposed to those same new perspectives and spend damn near every second of that time dismissing, denouncing, and degrading them. Doing everything they can to drive them out of the community and spare themselves the inconvenience of having their own views challenged. Actively repelling every conceivable opportunity for learning and growth. Sadly there are a lot of examples of this in the community, too.
And when the same people have been engaging in the same toxic behavior for ten, fifteen, almost twenty years in some cases without ever showing an iota of genuine growth, then I don't care how much of an optimist you are; there has to come a time when you realize that continuing to give them more grace, more second chances, more toothless warnings stops being an act of nobility and starts being more like a suicide pact.
I am not particularly convinced that ElJeffe has changed all that much over the years, but more than that, it seems like he was a--perhaps the--primary architect of a style of moderation that consistently and systematically prioritized the insulation and protection of the latter group of posters over the well-being of the former. Even after he formally stepped down from active modding, great pains seem to have been taken on the parts of himself and others around him to ensure that he would remain in a position of influence where he could ensure that future mods would continue along in the same style of moderation that he pioneered in the years that followed. And now, when the move to the new boards have afforded us the opportunity of a clean slate and a new set of rules and mods to enforce them, sure enough here he is again doing everything he can to ensure that his influence over future moderation continues on the same as it always has. After so much ink has been spilled over coming together as a community and building something better and not repeating the mistakes of the past, it should really not be shocking to you or ElJeffe or anyone that his candidacy has been gotten the reactions that it has. If he was both kind enough to believe that building a more inclusive community is important and wise enough to understand how big his own role was in creating and perpetuating the harsh divisions that we're painfully dealing with right now, he wouldn't have run.
I need to grab the bullhorn for a moment, forgive me for appropriated Mod Voice.
Sending out voting codes is a manual process that requires me and minor to be both be present, and the more codes need to be sent, the longer it takes due to PM rate limits. Please, if you have not registered a PIN already and plan to vote, please do so ASAP. A last minute spike in PIN registrations is unlikely, but could cause deliverability issues. PINs created after 5pm EST tomorrow will NOT be sent voting codes.
Likewise, if you want to vote and have not received a voting code, please PM me ASAP. We haven't had even a single instance of this so far, so my faith in our implementation is very high, but it's worth repeating.
I haven't said a single word about Jeffe here. Just now, I was attempting to find ways to press for answers that people were wanting from him, because I believe it's crucial. My entire goal has been to try to add context where I can, and to make sure that people were able to understand who they are voting for. I don't have any side, I don't have a clique, I'm not here to keep score. I think it's tragic that someone was so badly hurt by someone else here. But I don't think anyone will ever get the resolution they deserve.
I don't go in for this kind of doomsaying. It's just a hedge to give excuses to people to not ever change, citing "irreconcilable differences" when really the goal was never reconciliation, but contrition.
Do I believe Jeffe can change and therefore this can all get resolved? Yes, actually, I do, because I believe everyone is capable of change. Surely he would not have so many supporters if some folks didn't see something good about him, so yes, I have to believe that he is capable of change.
When we then examine why he isn't using that capability, it essentially comes down to motives and priorities. I can safely presume that at minimum, he does not feel that the acts are egregious enough for him to change (or withdraw), either because he doesn't believe they happened (or are an accurate representation of what happened) or because he doesn't believe his actions are inherently disqualifying.
Maybe I shouldn't presume, but also, the man in question has chosen not to say anything in response, so that's what we are left to do.
For my part, regardless of what I believed, if someone wrote a 20-page tirade about me, whether or not I felt I did any of the things that were said, it would at minimum disqualify me as a leader in a community-led community. Because I would hate to think that someone - anyone - felt the need to sit down and write all that down just to have their pain heard. Whether or not I agreed with their version of events, the notion that this was that important to someone would take precedence.
I'd hope every Board candidate would feel similarly. At the core, someone is hurting, and a refusal to take any action or conduct any self-reflection or display any remorse or even just say you're sorry is basically in essence saying that "your pain doesn't matter" or "your pain isn't real" or even "your pain is the point." None of those takes is something I would want on the Board.
I think a counterpoint is somewhat warranted here, even as I agree with some of what you wrote.
I agree that Yellowhammer's post feels very doomer. 1200 people have registered at the new home and maybe a couple dozen people have decided that this thunderdome forever war is a thing to actively participate in. The "we" unable to move on is vanishingly small, and if "we" are being honest, the largest problem the overall community has to endure or deal with at this point, the biggest flashpoint for moderators to manage, and the ones most likely to harm the overall effort that so many people put time into.
I think people change. I think all of us have changed here dramatically over the years, some more dramatic than others. It seems like the framing here is that the only mechanism available to ElJeffe to change, from this, is to step out of running or leave outright to satisfy a small but passionate group of members of this community who feel it is the only right thing that can happen. It sticks to the assumption that Lanz made in what she wrote, which I did read all of because I do feel she has a right to be heard, that Jeffe is the same Republican Apologist from over a decade ago. That he specifically is frozen in amber and a relic of the bad old days here. That has not been my observation, personally, or the observation of many in this community who would rather not wade into these waters and throw barbs and risk infractions and potential banning from their longtime home on the web.
So, I disagree that his only path to showing change is to do what a very small percentage of the overall community is yelling at him to do, or that people having serious issues with someone disqualifies them from running or representing the community, should the community vote for them. If we made it an official rule or standard that if anyone can write a 20 page tirade about a candidate, then that candidate would have to be disqualified, then I see probably 4-5 of the people in the running finding something like that posted because some folks don't like Kelor or Tef, and some folks don't like ElJeffe obviously... and I'm sure something has to come out about Amateurhour because nobody is actually that awesome all the time.
I truly think we just need to let the vote sort this out, and allow for the many hundreds of people who cast their votes be heard, and the few dozen of us who have spent significantly way too much time on this to allow it to conclude peacefully, and let the dust settle where it does. This is not doing the larger community any favors. I look forward to seeing what diverse, great candidates become our board no matter who wins, and trust that the mix of opinions and perspectives in the room are going to do a great job steering this thing into the next 20+ years of maeking post.
Just to be clear: I do think everyone is capable of changing for the better, Jeffe included. I'm also taking the idea of a fresh start on CoRe seriously, and will be leaving as many preconceptions about posters as I can at the door.
That being said, we're a) not done here yet, and b) talking about someone potentially being at the rudder. I'm not asking for someone to lay on a bed of nails, or walk on hot coals, or pray every rosary within ten miles of their location as penance. I'm asking for an honest apology and introspection. I think the suitable apology would be an acknowledgement of the harm done and a bowing out of the leadership contest, but I can't compel anyone to do anything.
sick as hell to see that even now lanz is getting hit with the double bind of, either she doesn't provide enough details and she's just making shit up, or she provides too much detail which is annoying and obsessive
doesn't matter what the topic is, if lanz has an opinion you can be sure that she is providing the exactly wrong amount of detail and supporting evidence
The more I read about the voting system the more I realize that voters should have formed parties to strategically transfer votes in cadence
Expecting mild surprise at the results and the 17% thresholding stuff too. Fun times.
It would have been better to have the Q&A a week earlier, close the Q&A, and then open the voting the next week.
I feel really badly that lanz and some of the other posters feel unsafe coming to the new place and are leaving.
I am not really convinced that people don't check back in 3-12 months down the road under a new board and decide whether to stay/return at that point.
The new forum doesn't even really exist until the board and mod slate exists; how could anyone decide at this point, on the merits of them? We have some rules and whatnot but people have seemed happy enough about those until the election, which hasn't even concluded. The rules remain subject to change and the board/mods hold tremendous actual power to run things as they see fit, tbh. And under a voting system that I think is quite unintuitive if you don't have parties and coordinated voting as to how the rankings play out.
Posts
I have finished the spreadsheet up to the point the Q&A thread is currently sitting at.
I do sincerely hope this has been of help to members of our community! I know it's helped me form some strong opinions on who I would most like to see guide our community through the transition to CoRe.
I apologize if you have any disagreements with the way I summarized questions or answers. Especially near the end, there were some questions that were very similar but not quite the same as previous questions and I had to make personal judgement calls about what to include, where.
I especially apologize for not including questions that were directed specifically toward only one or two candidates. These are still valuable questions, but I didn't know how to include them in a fair way in the spreadsheet.
If you do have issues, don't hesitate to send me a PM. I can't promise I will spend more time on this, as I've already dedicated something like 20 hours to the spreadsheet already, but I absolutely value fair and honest criticism.
Of special note: I noticed that sometimes, candidates were responding to questions by reacting to another candidate's answer instead of writing up their own posts.
I noticed this a little late to include, but if any candidates wanted to direct my attention to any posts in particular, I can update the sheet with a simple 'agrees with "x"s statement on this matter.'
All the best to our candidates and good luck! I'll be getting in my vote sometime tonight after spending even more time thinking about this.
Let me know if you think there's a good place to put this on the Coin Return forums themselves as well.
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
I overall agree with this, but again, still want @ElJeffe to answer Lanz's post. Bluntly, the behavior documented is horrific, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with having someone who's engaged in that level of persistent harassment and abuse of power as part of the community. This is above and beyond the ethics issues that kicked off the shit storm here, and the non apology.
Also, going forward, there will be more elections - having this document could well be useful in the future, including you allow a "how have your opinions changed, how well do you think you and the board meet these goals?"
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
Honestly, the only thing horrific is someone wrote up a 20 page post about an internet message board mod because they at times moderated and that her supposed friends are egging her on rather than begging her to seek perspective.
Okay, I think I can speak pretty definitively on this.
I just spent the last week reading dozens and dozens of posts about how special this place is. About how this is a place where community comes first, and we care for each other, and we have to fight for the voices of the marginalized. About how we raised thousands of dollars and that's sooo amazing!
About how we might have to fight legal battles, putting our beliefs first, consequences be damned.
But, if somebody cares too much about this place, it's 'horrific'?
Which is it? Is this a special place which we deserve to invest our time and energy into? Or is it actually not that great? It's not a place to get too comfortable in?
Because every answer I read. HUNDREDS of answers. From every person up for candidacy. Was that the strength of the forums was diversity, community, and the chance to make things right.
Another common line, once again from pretty much every candidate, was that the moderation here has been fucked for years and needed to be fixed. So yeah. I can see why someone might have had a problem with moderation. It seems like it's not a big fucking secret.
So, please, let me know if anyone here was just saying platitudes in order to make a power grab on an internet forum...
Let me know the ACCEPTABLE amount to care about this place, so I can be sure not to get too invested in the future. Because if it's horrific to care about the forums why the fuck was I excited to vote earlier today?
I don't know Lanz. I'm not a 'friend' of Lanz. But I think, actually, that she should be allowed to make an emotional appeal here instead of being asked to sit down and shut up.
You can't have it both ways. This place can't be important enough to love, but not important enough to hate.
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
What a horrible way to talk about someone having a traumatic response to another person's behaviour. I really hope you're treated with much more grace if you ever find yourself in such a situation.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
wtf are you doing mate
Yes, getting upset about about online social interactions and an internet forum election is silly. Good thing you've stayed above all that, right?
I don't understand what this post is even meant to achieve, beyond spreading a little more bile and hostility around. You keep leaping to Jeffe's defence, but you're just being sarcastic and hostile. Do you think that will convince anyone? Do you think this cheer squad is going to win him any votes? Convince any bystanders that Jeffe is the sensible, reasonable voice here? If you're trying to win him votes, or improve his reputation, you need to rethink your strategy. And if you're not, what are you even doing? Just shitting on people for the fun of it?
You have no idea how gross this comes off, do you? You just do not get it. Saying you don't want to minimize anyone's feelings while posting this sort of shit is rank.
People got hurt. Repeteadly. Again, this past week alone saw a major breakdown out of 2* people, and another person get subjected to all kinds of harassment. That's what I'm aware of, alone. Because Jeffe decided that his need to be in power was worth throwing a massive drama bomb into everything, and multiple other posters lined up to go "Oh, this is fine. Screw the transition team. #TeamJeffe, we believe in spite".
So yeah, people don't want to let bygones be bygones because that's how we fucking got here in the first place. By ignoring this behavior until the rot had set in deep.
*Correction - it was 4. At least 4 that i can directly name (And again, I'm not going to, this is not my fucking place) had their weeks absolutely ruined by Jeffe's behavior.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
If someone says they have been abused, it's weird to respond 'I wish people would stop saying they've been abused, it upsets me, can't they just let it go?' If you want to heal a wound, maybe the alleged stabber should stop reaching for a bigger knife, and his cheer squad should stop throwing salt at it?
A couple of weeks ago I thought Jeffe was a kinda shitty mod, but nobody's perfect and it's probably a hard job, oh well. These last few weeks though... how can anyone see Jeffe's shitty behaviour, which he constantly deflects, downplays his involvement, or straight up avoids answering for it, and think maybe everyone should just shut up and forgive him?
I think a counterpoint is somewhat warranted here, even as I agree with some of what you wrote.
I agree that Yellowhammer's post feels very doomer. 1200 people have registered at the new home and maybe a couple dozen people have decided that this thunderdome forever war is a thing to actively participate in. The "we" unable to move on is vanishingly small, and if "we" are being honest, the largest problem the overall community has to endure or deal with at this point, the biggest flashpoint for moderators to manage, and the ones most likely to harm the overall effort that so many people put time into.
I think people change. I think all of us have changed here dramatically over the years, some more dramatic than others. It seems like the framing here is that the only mechanism available to ElJeffe to change, from this, is to step out of running or leave outright to satisfy a small but passionate group of members of this community who feel it is the only right thing that can happen. It sticks to the assumption that Lanz made in what she wrote, which I did read all of because I do feel she has a right to be heard, that Jeffe is the same Republican Apologist from over a decade ago. That he specifically is frozen in amber and a relic of the bad old days here. That has not been my observation, personally, or the observation of many in this community who would rather not wade into these waters and throw barbs and risk infractions and potential banning from their longtime home on the web.
So, I disagree that his only path to showing change is to do what a very small percentage of the overall community is yelling at him to do, or that people having serious issues with someone disqualifies them from running or representing the community, should the community vote for them. If we made it an official rule or standard that if anyone can write a 20 page tirade about a candidate, then that candidate would have to be disqualified, then I see probably 4-5 of the people in the running finding something like that posted because some folks don't like Kelor or Tef, and some folks don't like ElJeffe obviously... and I'm sure something has to come out about Amateurhour because nobody is actually that awesome all the time.
I truly think we just need to let the vote sort this out, and allow for the many hundreds of people who cast their votes be heard, and the few dozen of us who have spent significantly way too much time on this to allow it to conclude peacefully, and let the dust settle where it does. This is not doing the larger community any favors. I look forward to seeing what diverse, great candidates become our board no matter who wins, and trust that the mix of opinions and perspectives in the room are going to do a great job steering this thing into the next 20+ years of maeking post.
Disagreeing with the contents of a post is fine but this kind of commentary about another user is not
the lying, deflection, refusal to account for his behavior, and abuse of mod privileges while pretending to be a regular user are so far beyond anything any other candidate has done that it's genuinely insane that tef and kelor get mentioned in the same sentence
if you're using just the planning forum as your basis for determining how many people think jeffe needed to not let his gargantuan ego get in the way of core's elections and how massively he fucked that whole thing up, you're not getting the whole picture
Also it seems to be: hey there are only a few people putting their voices forward out of concern for the community, we should just let this go and move on!
but if there are a lot of voices coming forward it's: hey whoa what's with this coordinated dogpiling you guys.
As someone who cares but hasn't been talking about it with anyone, it's extremely disappointing to see how much effort is going into avoiding recognizing the problems being brought up.
I am not, but neither should anyone be using the planning forum as a basis for knowing what people think about him from the other direction, or feel that they have the whole picture of how the broader community views this. The way I see it, there are a handful of people directly involved in all of this, a few dozen passionate enough about it to make posts about it one way or the other, and a larger group that has their opinions but don't want to wade into the shit.
None of us know if this even registers for the people who voted. More have already voted than I imagined in my best case scenario we would have had move to coin return at the very start.
It's going to be illuminating, regardless of how it pans out.
Just like he hasn't made a post actually addressing the grenade he threw at this whole endeavor right before voting. Someone who has this community's best interest at heart would address these things as they come up. He has decided to ignore them.
He waited until the old forums basically broke to post a half hearted apology, not for the abuse of power, but for the blackmail accusations, and then he's been radio silent on here since.
If this was just a dustup over mild forum grudges, sure. That'd be fine
But we have a: serious ethics issues around the mod forum, and b: A well document sustained campaign of harassment of Lanz via abusing the mod position. These are not small things. These are not things that you can claim at any other candidate - for fucks sake, @Tef and I have argued pretty fiercely before and gotten some mutually bruised feelings out of things. I still do not agree with how Tef approaches some topics. But in those cases, they are cases where we've disagreed as adults, and i still think that he's a very strong candidate who's demonstrated stepping up and doing the best to preserve this space. Kelor can be antagonistic, but it's obviously coming form a place of caring about people, and again, that's something I think is worth while.
So to draw links between how Tef and Kelor have acted and what Jeffe has done is a: incredibly uncomfortable at best for the level of downplaying it does, and actively pretty gross at worst.
I can only conclude from a lot of posts from many people in this thread that they just do not see a problem with Jeffe's behavior - or that if there is a problem, it's worse that people brought up there's a problem than smiling and getting along. Both are profoundly disappointing.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
There are others running for the board who have constantly been 'turds in the punch bowl' and while I didn't vote for them I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. There are levels of responsibilty in the bad feelings on the boards and they can't all be overlooked.
{Bluesky Account }{Writing and Story Blog}
@minor incident are you the person who would be in a position to post the mechanics leading to the results? Are we still at ~500 votes (which is amazing in my opinion) or has there been another uptick since Saturday?
I am. And my goal is to have them up ASAP after close of voting (hopefully the same night, barring any real life circumstances).
Last I checked yesterday we were at around 550 votes cast.
Yes. People can change. People can, over the course of years, be exposed to new ideas, new perspectives, new experiences, and learn from them and internalize them until they become much better, wiser, and kinder people than they were at the start. Tons of posters here--uncountably many--have undergone this growth process here. It's the number one reason why so many of us love and care about this community so much.
People can also spend those same years exposed to those same new perspectives and spend damn near every second of that time dismissing, denouncing, and degrading them. Doing everything they can to drive them out of the community and spare themselves the inconvenience of having their own views challenged. Actively repelling every conceivable opportunity for learning and growth. Sadly there are a lot of examples of this in the community, too.
And when the same people have been engaging in the same toxic behavior for ten, fifteen, almost twenty years in some cases without ever showing an iota of genuine growth, then I don't care how much of an optimist you are; there has to come a time when you realize that continuing to give them more grace, more second chances, more toothless warnings stops being an act of nobility and starts being more like a suicide pact.
I am not particularly convinced that ElJeffe has changed all that much over the years, but more than that, it seems like he was a--perhaps the--primary architect of a style of moderation that consistently and systematically prioritized the insulation and protection of the latter group of posters over the well-being of the former. Even after he formally stepped down from active modding, great pains seem to have been taken on the parts of himself and others around him to ensure that he would remain in a position of influence where he could ensure that future mods would continue along in the same style of moderation that he pioneered in the years that followed. And now, when the move to the new boards have afforded us the opportunity of a clean slate and a new set of rules and mods to enforce them, sure enough here he is again doing everything he can to ensure that his influence over future moderation continues on the same as it always has. After so much ink has been spilled over coming together as a community and building something better and not repeating the mistakes of the past, it should really not be shocking to you or ElJeffe or anyone that his candidacy has been gotten the reactions that it has. If he was both kind enough to believe that building a more inclusive community is important and wise enough to understand how big his own role was in creating and perpetuating the harsh divisions that we're painfully dealing with right now, he wouldn't have run.
Sending out voting codes is a manual process that requires me and minor to be both be present, and the more codes need to be sent, the longer it takes due to PM rate limits. Please, if you have not registered a PIN already and plan to vote, please do so ASAP. A last minute spike in PIN registrations is unlikely, but could cause deliverability issues. PINs created after 5pm EST tomorrow will NOT be sent voting codes.
Likewise, if you want to vote and have not received a voting code, please PM me ASAP. We haven't had even a single instance of this so far, so my faith in our implementation is very high, but it's worth repeating.
Thank you!
Just to be clear: I do think everyone is capable of changing for the better, Jeffe included. I'm also taking the idea of a fresh start on CoRe seriously, and will be leaving as many preconceptions about posters as I can at the door.
That being said, we're a) not done here yet, and b) talking about someone potentially being at the rudder. I'm not asking for someone to lay on a bed of nails, or walk on hot coals, or pray every rosary within ten miles of their location as penance. I'm asking for an honest apology and introspection. I think the suitable apology would be an acknowledgement of the harm done and a bowing out of the leadership contest, but I can't compel anyone to do anything.
doesn't matter what the topic is, if lanz has an opinion you can be sure that she is providing the exactly wrong amount of detail and supporting evidence
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Expecting mild surprise at the results and the 17% thresholding stuff too. Fun times.
It would have been better to have the Q&A a week earlier, close the Q&A, and then open the voting the next week.
I feel really badly that @lanz and some of the other posters feel unsafe coming to the new place and are leaving.
I am not really convinced that people don't check back in 3-12 months down the road under a new board and decide whether to stay/return at that point.
The new forum doesn't even really exist until the board and mod slate exists; how could anyone decide at this point, on the merits of them? We have some rules and whatnot but people have seemed happy enough about those until the election, which hasn't even concluded. The rules remain subject to change and the board/mods hold tremendous actual power to run things as they see fit, tbh. And under a voting system that I think is quite unintuitive if you don't have parties and coordinated voting as to how the rankings play out.