Well, I've been reading Codex Necrons. If you wanted to make a solid list, they're really easy to build for.
1000 Points Army Necron Lord: 200 Points
- Res Orb: 40 Points
- Veil of Darkness: 60 Points Necron Warriors: 792 Points
- 44 Necron Warriors: 18 Points each
They're pretty versatile. You can take 4 squads of 11. 1 squad of 20 and 2 squads of 12. Or even a squad of 14 and 3 squads of 10. I think the optimum combination would be a squad of 20, a squad of 11, and a squad of 13. But it's all up to you; the possible variation in Necron armies is endless.
Yeah, I'm not too enamored with Necron options right now.
Can there be bloodletters on them? Two big red & black Carnifexes with brass teeth & talons with khornate daemons riding on their backs, six Bloodthirsters dropping in out of nowhere...
That'd be a cool Apocalypse only army. Tyranids all Chaos'd up. Wow, I really want to see a Nurgle-fied Carnifex with Nurgling-esque rippers. Or a chaos'd genestealer cult.
Well, I've been reading Codex Necrons. If you wanted to make a solid list, they're really easy to build for.
1000 Points Army Necron Lord: 200 Points
- Res Orb: 40 Points
- Veil of Darkness: 60 Points Necron Warriors: 792 Points
- 44 Necron Warriors: 18 Points each
They're pretty versatile. You can take 4 squads of 11. 1 squad of 20 and 2 squads of 12. Or even a squad of 14 and 3 squads of 10. I think the optimum combination would be a squad of 20, a squad of 11, and a squad of 13. But it's all up to you; the possible variation in Necron armies is endless.
Yeah, I'm not too enamored with Necron options right now.
Oh come on now. You could throw a couple destroyers in there or something. Maybe a wraith or 2.
Claw, Make a Khorne based chaos army, it's low model count, can have 'even' squads, easier to use, requires less cover, can be almost entirely CC based (and more effective at it then BAs) and has some fun options.
Here a super rough 1K list:
1 Demon Prince
10 Chaos Marines with Icon of Khorne and some guns
10 Beserkers with a P Fist
10 Beserkers With a P Fist
1 Land Raider
With upgrades it should come to around 1K.
Move the squads on foot up behind the raider or cover, then charge. Each squad will be effective against just about anything, and you have a few plasma guns and lascannons to deal with tricky skimmers or bigger things that might cause trouble.
Edit: or really, just keep practicing with your nids, it can take months of battles to really get good with an army, I see people start 40k all the time and get really frustrated when they get their clocks cleaned and give up, the trick is to just keep at it, everyone gets better eventually, even if they didn't have a ton of strategy experience before. Just remember to try and think about each battle afterward and what you could have done differently, then apply to the next battle.
And here's a unit-by-unit breakdown of the reasons why, in the order you will deploy them...
Heavy Support:
Use the opportunity for a "Refused Flank" deployment by putting all your Carnifexes and Zoanthropes on one side of the board to operate as a separate force. Deploy all units into cover if at all possible, and make sure that the minimum 25% cover on the board is present, even if you have to cut out your own 'flat forests' from sheets of paper to make up the difference. Tyranids live and die by terrain placement, so try and have several "islands" you can move your units behind and through as they advance so that you're not caught completely out in the open.
He is your main source of Anti-Tank shooting, and also a big target by itself. Your opponent will most likely deploy his own tanks within shooting range of this Carnifex.
Deploy this Carnifex next to your first and your opponent will think you're going to set up all your models with these two, and shift his plans accordingly.
By placing these three models with the Carnifexes you've got their Synapse making all the models even harder to kill, and the Warp Blast shooting the same targets as the DakkaFex over 18" away or the S10 blast against tougher targets the ShootyFex couldn't take out.
Shoot the DakkaFex first, decide if you want the Zoanthropes to target the same unit or go after the same target as the ShootyFex after it fires.
Troops:
Here is where the "Refused Flank" deployment develops. All of the units you've put on the board so far are shooting oriented, but with enough Close Combat ability in the Carnifexes to be able to take care of themselves. The rest of your deployment will be in a group 18"-24" away from the Heavy support and act as the Hammer to their Anvil. Deploy into cover. Deploy into cover. It's worth repeating.
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Deploy this unit as far away from the Heavies as you can and about 4" back from the front limit of deployment, and say something along the lines of "I guess I should put a little something over here so you don't Infiltrate or Deep Strike behind me." If this works you opponent should still put his next unit across from the Heavies, if not then no big loss.
24 Gaunt Brood @ 144 Pts
Fleshborer
Deploy these in front of the Hormagaunts you've already placed, with enough room for the Tyrant to go in the middle of the whole lot and the other Hormagaunts on the other side of the blank space left for the Tyrant.
The reason for putting all 24 together is to make the brood more durable versus shooting, and to look more impressive and threatening than they really are. They will be able to lay out enough shots to sweep up remainders of the unit the Tyrant shot up, and if not a charge by two broods of Hormies should see to the rest.
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Just place these Hormies as I describe above.
HQ:
Place The Tyrant in the middle of your Troop formation where his Synapse will cover the most models and his shooting will be going after the same types of units as the Gaunts.
Hive Tyrant @ 164 Pts
Enhanced Senses; Toxin Sacs; Twin-linked Devourer; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature; The Horror; Warp Field
The Tyrant has a Barbed Strangler instead of a Venom Cannon and added Toxin Sacs so all your shooting is Strength 5 to make it more effective versus infantry. No need to remodel anything since the only other model with a Venom Cannon also has a Barbed Strangler just tell your opponents they're 'reversed' and you should have no problem. The change from Extended Carapace to Warp Field was made by dropping Psychic Scream (which is not worth it just as a -1 modifier), and the 6+ invulnerable will help a bit with survivability.
Leave shooting Vehicles to your Heavy Support choices, but if you get into Close Combat with any the added Strength from the Venom Sacs will be a nice bonus.
With this group shoot the Tyrant's Barbed Strangler first, resolve casualties and follow up with the Devourers. If there's anything left of that target have the Gaunts shoot it too, even if it's only one or two models. Your goal is to destroy as many complete units with your shooting as you can so that your Hormagaunts will have the benefit of overwhelming numbers of attacks in close combat.
As the game progresses move your Heavy Support "Anvil" and your Troop & HQ "Hammer" together so they can better mutually support each other.
Total Roster Cost: 1004
Being 4 points over shouldn't matter too much, unless your opponent is a total dick, in which case tell him, "It's just 4 points, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it."
Try it this way a couple of times and see if it fits your play style.
Frowbakk on
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
Well, I've been reading Codex Necrons. If you wanted to make a solid list, they're really easy to build for.
1000 Points Army Necron Lord: 200 Points
- Res Orb: 40 Points
- Veil of Darkness: 60 Points Necron Warriors: 792 Points
- 44 Necron Warriors: 18 Points each
They're pretty versatile. You can take 4 squads of 11. 1 squad of 20 and 2 squads of 12. Or even a squad of 14 and 3 squads of 10. I think the optimum combination would be a squad of 20, a squad of 11, and a squad of 13. But it's all up to you; the possible variation in Necron armies is endless.
Yeah, I'm not too enamored with Necron options right now.
You're only as limited as you let yourself be. Amusingly, I did much the same thing for shrimpy after my necron suggestion as a lark, except I went with 1 unit of 20 warriors, 2x 10, and 4 scarabs with disruption fields. 41 3+ save models at 1000 points? Not bad, and those speedy little scarabs can go zipping about, chewing on vehicles, or tying up nasty things like devastator squads that are trying to shoot your manz.
And here's a unit-by-unit breakdown of the reasons why, in the order you will deploy them...
Heavy Support:
Use the opportunity for a "Refused Flank" deployment by putting all your Carnifexes and Zoanthropes on one side of the board to operate as a separate force. Deploy all units into cover if at all possible, and make sure that the minimum 25% cover on the board is present, even if you have to cut out your own 'flat forests' from sheets of paper to make up the difference. Tyranids live and die by terrain placement, so try and have several "islands" you can move your units behind and through as they advance so that you're not caught completely out in the open.
He is your main source of Anti-Tank shooting, and also a big target by itself. Your opponent will most likely deploy his own tanks within shooting range of this Carnifex.
Deploy this Carnifex next to your first and your opponent will think you're going to set up all your models with these two, and shift his plans accordingly.
By placing these three models with the Carnifexes you've got their Synapse making all the models even harder to kill, and the Warp Blast shooting the same targets as the DakkaFex over 18" away or the S10 blast against tougher targets the ShootyFex couldn't take out.
Shoot the DakkaFex first, decide if you want the Zoanthropes to target the same unit or go after the same target as the ShootyFex after it fires.
Troops:
Here is where the "Refused Flank" deployment develops. All of the units you've put on the board so far are shooting oriented, but with enough Close Combat ability in the Carnifexes to be able to take care of themselves. The rest of your deployment will be in a group 18"-24" away from the Heavy support and act as the Hammer to their Anvil. Deploy into cover. Deploy into cover. It's worth repeating.
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Deploy this unit as far away from the Heavies as you can and about 4" back from the front limit of deployment, and say something along the lines of "I guess I should put a little something over here so you don't Infiltrate or Deep Strike behind me." If this works you opponent should still put his next unit across from the Heavies, if not then no big loss.
24 Gaunt Brood @ 144 Pts
Fleshborer
Deploy these in front of the Hormagaunts you've already placed, with enough room for the Tyrant to go in the middle of the whole lot and the other Hormagaunts on the other side of the blank space left for the Tyrant.
The reason for putting all 24 together is to make the brood more durable versus shooting, and to look more impressive and threatening than they really are. They will be able to lay out enough shots to sweep up remainders of the unit the Tyrant shot up, and if not a charge by two broods of Hormies should see to the rest.
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Just place these Hormies as I describe above.
HQ:
Place The Tyrant in the middle of your Troop formation where his Synapse will cover the most models and his shooting will be going after the same types of units as the Gaunts.
Hive Tyrant @ 164 Pts
Enhanced Senses; Toxin Sacs; Twin-linked Devourer; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature; The Horror; Warp Field
The Tyrant has a Barbed Strangler instead of a Venom Cannon and added Toxin Sacs so all your shooting is Strength 5 to make it more effective versus infantry. No need to remodel anything since the only other model with a Venom Cannon also has a Barbed Strangler just tell your opponents they're 'reversed' and you should have no problem. The change from Extended Carapace to Warp Field was made by dropping Psychic Scream (which is not worth it just as a -1 modifier), and the 6+ invulnerable will help a bit with survivability.
Leave shooting Vehicles to your Heavy Support choices, but if you get into Close Combat with any the added Strength from the Venom Sacs will be a nice bonus.
With this group shoot the Tyrant's Barbed Strangler first, resolve casualties and follow up with the Devourers. If there's anything left of that target have the Gaunts shoot it too, even if it's only one or two models. Your goal is to destroy as many complete units with your shooting as you can so that your Hormagaunts will have the benefit of overwhelming numbers of attacks in close combat.
As the game progresses move your Heavy Support "Anvil" and your Troop & HQ "Hammer" together so they can better mutually support each other.
Total Roster Cost: 1004
Being 4 points over shouldn't matter too much, unless your opponent is a total dick, in which case tell him, "It's just 4 points, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it."
Try it this way a couple of times and see if it fits your play style.
On a complete different topic that actually has to do with 40k,
I'm really really looking forward to starting a proppa ork army. I figure I'm going to just throw units that look fun together in a list and see how they do. Then I can add or subtract stuff when I see if I like them. What's awesome is that no matter who is playing them, if there are orks in a game, I'm having a blast!
this is why i chose orks.
I don't care if i win or lose, as long as i Get to careen a ramshackle truck of green skinned maniacs with scraps of metal bolted on for heavy armor into my enemy, and If I'm lucky pop those boys out of the truck, covered by the smoldering remains of the vehicle (I'm considering modeling up a flaming tire to "roll out of the wreckage")
and while everyone is focused on this (how can they not be... i mean really...) i'll jam my warbikes and def koptas into the flanks of their main force!
And if that doesn't work that's ok, because it will have been fun enough to satisfy me.
Command tank: 245
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ 2x Heavy bolter and 1x Lascannon
Ace Tank: 210
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ 2x Heavy Bolter and 1x Lascannon
Tank units: 620
4x Leman Russ w/ 3x Heavy Bolter
Reconnaissance: 115
Hellhound
Heavy support: 155
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ 2x plasma cannons and 1x Heavy Bolter
Artillery: 100
Basilisk
Extra Armour on all units: 45
1500 points
I think giving the Exterminators the lascannon's gives them both AT and long range abilities, plus the BS 4 they have should make it a nice addition. And hell, that means they can only use a twin-linked autocannon and two heavy bolters against infantry, whatever will I do?
Can there be bloodletters on them? Two big red & black Carnifexes with brass teeth & talons with khornate daemons riding on their backs, six Bloodthirsters dropping in out of nowhere...
That'd be a cool Apocalypse only army. Tyranids all Chaos'd up. Wow, I really want to see a Nurgle-fied Carnifex with Nurgling-esque rippers. Or a chaos'd genestealer cult.
I still want to field a 'stealer cult. =(
Add some Witchhunter advesary mutants and cultists to a Genestealer list.
Wow, I just thought of a cool gift I could give a friend of mine. I might have to convert Tyranids and Space Marines into a chess set. Maybe convert them all then do 'em up in metallics.
Maybe it's just because 1,000 points just feels really awkward at times. Maybe I do need to just get my 1800 together and just play that. but I am kinda worried I'll have the same problems.
A: Crons are bad because they exist in 2 extremes
G: No they don't
A: My list is all destroyers, so crons are bad because they exist in 2 extremes. Also, I own models (and feel this is relevant)
G: Having a destroyers list doesn't mean crons only exist in the 2 extremes
A: The tournament winner had a destroyer list, so crons are bad because they exist in 2 extremes
And here's a unit-by-unit breakdown of the reasons why, in the order you will deploy them...
Heavy Support:
Use the opportunity for a "Refused Flank" deployment by putting all your Carnifexes and Zoanthropes on one side of the board to operate as a separate force. Deploy all units into cover if at all possible, and make sure that the minimum 25% cover on the board is present, even if you have to cut out your own 'flat forests' from sheets of paper to make up the difference. Tyranids live and die by terrain placement, so try and have several "islands" you can move your units behind and through as they advance so that you're not caught completely out in the open.
He is your main source of Anti-Tank shooting, and also a big target by itself. Your opponent will most likely deploy his own tanks within shooting range of this Carnifex.
Deploy this Carnifex next to your first and your opponent will think you're going to set up all your models with these two, and shift his plans accordingly.
By placing these three models with the Carnifexes you've got their Synapse making all the models even harder to kill, and the Warp Blast shooting the same targets as the DakkaFex over 18" away or the S10 blast against tougher targets the ShootyFex couldn't take out.
Shoot the DakkaFex first, decide if you want the Zoanthropes to target the same unit or go after the same target as the ShootyFex after it fires.
Troops:
Here is where the "Refused Flank" deployment develops. All of the units you've put on the board so far are shooting oriented, but with enough Close Combat ability in the Carnifexes to be able to take care of themselves. The rest of your deployment will be in a group 18"-24" away from the Heavy support and act as the Hammer to their Anvil. Deploy into cover. Deploy into cover. It's worth repeating.
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Deploy this unit as far away from the Heavies as you can and about 4" back from the front limit of deployment, and say something along the lines of "I guess I should put a little something over here so you don't Infiltrate or Deep Strike behind me." If this works you opponent should still put his next unit across from the Heavies, if not then no big loss.
24 Gaunt Brood @ 144 Pts
Fleshborer
Deploy these in front of the Hormagaunts you've already placed, with enough room for the Tyrant to go in the middle of the whole lot and the other Hormagaunts on the other side of the blank space left for the Tyrant.
The reason for putting all 24 together is to make the brood more durable versus shooting, and to look more impressive and threatening than they really are. They will be able to lay out enough shots to sweep up remainders of the unit the Tyrant shot up, and if not a charge by two broods of Hormies should see to the rest.
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Just place these Hormies as I describe above.
HQ:
Place The Tyrant in the middle of your Troop formation where his Synapse will cover the most models and his shooting will be going after the same types of units as the Gaunts.
Hive Tyrant @ 164 Pts
Enhanced Senses; Toxin Sacs; Twin-linked Devourer; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature; The Horror; Warp Field
The Tyrant has a Barbed Strangler instead of a Venom Cannon and added Toxin Sacs so all your shooting is Strength 5 to make it more effective versus infantry. No need to remodel anything since the only other model with a Venom Cannon also has a Barbed Strangler just tell your opponents they're 'reversed' and you should have no problem. The change from Extended Carapace to Warp Field was made by dropping Psychic Scream (which is not worth it just as a -1 modifier), and the 6+ invulnerable will help a bit with survivability.
Leave shooting Vehicles to your Heavy Support choices, but if you get into Close Combat with any the added Strength from the Venom Sacs will be a nice bonus.
With this group shoot the Tyrant's Barbed Strangler first, resolve casualties and follow up with the Devourers. If there's anything left of that target have the Gaunts shoot it too, even if it's only one or two models. Your goal is to destroy as many complete units with your shooting as you can so that your Hormagaunts will have the benefit of overwhelming numbers of attacks in close combat.
As the game progresses move your Heavy Support "Anvil" and your Troop & HQ "Hammer" together so they can better mutually support each other.
Total Roster Cost: 1004
Being 4 points over shouldn't matter too much, unless your opponent is a total dick, in which case tell him, "It's just 4 points, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it."
Try it this way a couple of times and see if it fits your play style.
......how can you not take Genestealers?
Because you don't need Genestealers.
Really. Truly. Honestly.
You'll get more attacks, cause more wounds, and have more failed saves causing more casualties from the same points value of Hormagaunts compared to Genestealers, even with Auto Wounds & No Saves from Rending. Plus Genestealers tend to draw more than their fair share of shooting from your opponent meaning less of them would even get into Close Combat in the first place.
Without Genestealers on the board the bigger threat to attract your opponents shooting will be the large units of Gaunts or the Tyrant in that grouping. You opponent will ignore the Hormagaunts at first because they aren't causing casualties from shooting like the Gaunts are, as well as your Monstrous Creatures from the other grouping also are.
Once the second or third turn rolls around and your Hormagaunts get into their 18" charge range your opponent might turn some attention their way. By then it's too late. You've got two units of Hormies, and your opponent can't take out both of them before they can charge and start causing lots of casualties in Close Combat. With your Gaunts shooting 18" the previous turn and your opponent most likely Rapid Firing into the Gaunts in response during his turn you now have a unit close enough for both units of Hormies to focus their combined attention upon. In the mean time your remaining Gaunts and Tyrant can move off to shoot at a different unit, or link up with the Monstrous Creatures for combined firepower and Synapse coverage while your Hormies are "safe" in Close Combat where they excel.
Maybe it's just because 1,000 points just feels really awkward at times. Maybe I do need to just get my 1800 together and just play that. but I am kinda worried I'll have the same problems.
The same tactics apply at 1000 points as they do at 1800. You need to find out if your play style fits with the models you have, or if you need to add more, or try something different in the same Army before moving off to try another completely new force.
In fact, by keeping yourself to 1000 points for a few games you won't get distracted by all the nifty extras yoiu can get with 1800 points. To use an analogy it's like target shooting. If you learn with the bare minimums, just iron sights, then what you learn can be applied to adding telescopic sights, laser pointers and all the rest later. However, if you're using the telescopic sight and laser pointer as a crutch you can't do without, then when they're removed you don't know what to do. It's better to learn without all the bells & whistles (in this case Genestealers) and see what works for you than it is to try and learn using all the complexities at once.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
Genestealers are a more likely target than Hormagaunts, and more Hormies will get into Close Combat more of the time, and cause more casualties.
Give it a try or two before turning to another Army, Clawshrimpy. We can type here until our fingers fall off, but it's your experiences on the tabletop which should be your deciding factor.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
No. The initial assumption that 'gaunts do more wounds per point than stealers' is absolutely wrong, so any advice stemming directly from it needs to be reworked or discarded. Alot of that post you made is advice rooted in the fact that gaunts can do something they can't, not to mention they are a completely different unit than stealers anyway. The point that 'shrimpy shouldn't be using crutches' is great, but saying 'hey toss out this crutch and get these models that kill more stuff and do xxxx and xxxx with them etc etc' is a problem when the models don't do that.
I think he means per point, you can get 3 gaunts for the cost of a stealer and based on your link there, 3 gaunts shooting, then charging kills as many marines as 1 stealer charging, and 3 gaunts are probably tougher on the net then an 18 point stealer.
Edit: That's a good tool btw, I made up an excel sheet myself a few months ago with every weapon special rule on it... but i went one step too far and broke it, then couldn't figure out how to fix it and gave up, this will save me alot of time. Its too bad it doesn't have an "expected return" output though.
Stealer is t4, and the gaunts won't be shooting because of fleet. This is also assuming there isn't any cover for them to fleet through, no carapace armor, no melee attacks back, etc. It also doesn't factor in things like models with high toughness, and combat resolution, because gaunts die by the score in melee. Stealer is a significantly better model @ killing things, because that is it's job, and the gaunt's job is to tie stuff up so the stealers can get to them in due course.
BTW -
Doing 3 gaunts vs. 1 stealer in the probability model, with the gaunts shooting/charging (extremely forgiving model for the gaunts) you have a ~30% chance of killing 1 marine. On the charge, a stealer has a 57% chance of killing 1 marine.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
Stealer is t4, and the gaunts won't be shooting because of fleet. This is also assuming there isn't any cover for them to fleet through, no carapace armor, no melee attacks back, etc. It also doesn't factor in things like models with high toughness, and combat resolution, because gaunts die by the score in melee. Stealer is a significantly better model @ killing things, because that is it's job, and the gaunt's job is to tie stuff up so the stealers can get to them in due course.
Good point about the fleeting, I gotta say as a regular BA player there is nothing I fear more then 'stealers, as my jump pack army has virtually no way to deal with them. The effectiveness just h2h of gaunts vs. stealers converge as the opponent gets worse at h2h though.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
But, don't hormaguants have problems with killing heavier Infantry, like Nobz, Terminators and the like?
Shrimpy, don't listen to Frowbakk. I'm sure he is a great guy but he isn't going to change his opinion at all (in fact, he moved the goalposts) and in my opinion he is giving very bad advice.
You need to know how to hide models properly and use any synergies you can find (btw Frow, the word you were looking for was "Synchronicity" which is a bitchin' Police album) but that holds true for any list, at any time.
Stealer is t4, and the gaunts won't be shooting because of fleet. This is also assuming there isn't any cover for them to fleet through, no carapace armor, no melee attacks back, etc. It also doesn't factor in things like models with high toughness, and combat resolution, because gaunts die by the score in melee. Stealer is a significantly better model @ killing things, because that is it's job, and the gaunt's job is to tie stuff up so the stealers can get to them in due course.
Good point about the fleeting, I gotta say as a regular BA player there is nothing I fear more then 'stealers, as my jump pack army has virtually no way to deal with them. The effectiveness just h2h of gaunts vs. stealers converge as the opponent gets worse at h2h though.
Yes the effectiveness definately converges, to the point where you would rather have gaunts against other gaunts, orcs, and some IG squads. Against MEQ gaunts lose the combat round after round, they are just kinda there to tie you up so the big guys can come eat you.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
But, don't hormaguants have problems with killing heavier Infantry, like Nobz, Terminators and the like?
That's what your "Anvil" part is for. Having the different parts of your army work together towards a common goal.
No single unit will be an all-around best-at-everything. It's getting the different units to mutually support each other to cover each others weaknesses that makes the difference.
Also, your combined shooting from the Carnifexes will be the most likely focus of your opponents Heavy Hitters such as the Terminators, Nobz Mobs, etc., not the "Hammer" of Gaunts, Hormies, & Tyrant.
I'm not trying to say you are a bad player Frowbakk, but some of the assumptions you make are a bit exaggerated, don't factor in any sort of LOS-blocking at all, and (this is important) haven't changed even though it was demonstrated that they were completely off-base mathematically. It is interesting because the very same problems you have with stealers would be mitigated by you taking the advice you are trying to give shrimpy.
Command tank: 245
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ 2x Heavy bolter and 1x Lascannon
Ace Tank: 210
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ 2x Heavy Bolter and 1x Lascannon
Tank units: 620
4x Leman Russ w/ 3x Heavy Bolter
Reconnaissance: 115
Hellhound
Heavy support: 155
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ 2x plasma cannons and 1x Heavy Bolter
Artillery: 100
Basilisk
Extra Armour on all units: 45
1500 points
I think giving the Exterminators the lascannon's gives them both AT and long range abilities, plus the BS 4 they have should make it a nice addition. And hell, that means they can only use a twin-linked autocannon and two heavy bolters against infantry, whatever will I do?
I'll take a look at your list and give you any advice, but the first thing off the top of my head is give the exterminator a hull HB and side HBs. You can ask SJ about mine. The combination of those weapons has killed something like 30 orks a game. And that was a straight bs3 exterminator. Think of that with bs 4 :rotate:
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
But, don't hormaguants have problems with killing heavier Infantry, like Nobz, Terminators and the like?
That's what your "Anvil" part is for. Having the different parts of your army work together towards a common goal.
No single unit will be an all-around best-at-everything. It's getting the different units to mutually support each other to cover each others weaknesses that makes the difference.
Also, your combined shooting from the Carnifexes will be the most likely focus of your opponents Heavy Hitters such as the Terminators, Nobz Mobs, etc., not the "Hammer" of Gaunts, Hormies, & Tyrant.
But aren't those big heavy shooters going to be too busy trying to take a vehicle out? I need something that can fight heavier troops in Melee, and the only thing I can think of that can do that is Genestealers.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
But, don't hormaguants have problems with killing heavier Infantry, like Nobz, Terminators and the like?
That's what your "Anvil" part is for. Having the different parts of your army work together towards a common goal.
No single unit will be an all-around best-at-everything. It's getting the different units to mutually support each other to cover each others weaknesses that makes the difference.
Also, your combined shooting from the Carnifexes will be the most likely focus of your opponents Heavy Hitters such as the Terminators, Nobz Mobs, etc., not the "Hammer" of Gaunts, Hormies, & Tyrant.
But aren't those big heavy shooters going to be too busy trying to take a vehicle out? I need something that can fight heavier troops in Melee, and the only thing I can think of that can do that is Genestealers.
This is like watching episode 3 of Star Wars, where Palpatine is converting Anakin. You are forced to watch the process, and it is painful, and you can't do anything to stop it.
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
But, don't hormaguants have problems with killing heavier Infantry, like Nobz, Terminators and the like?
That's what your "Anvil" part is for. Having the different parts of your army work together towards a common goal.
No single unit will be an all-around best-at-everything. It's getting the different units to mutually support each other to cover each others weaknesses that makes the difference.
Also, your combined shooting from the Carnifexes will be the most likely focus of your opponents Heavy Hitters such as the Terminators, Nobz Mobs, etc., not the "Hammer" of Gaunts, Hormies, & Tyrant.
But aren't those big heavy shooters going to be too busy trying to take a vehicle out? I need something that can fight heavier troops in Melee, and the only thing I can think of that can do that is Genestealers.
This is like watching episode 3 of Star Wars, where Palpatine is converting Anakin. You are forced to watch the process, and it is painful, and you can't do anything to stop it.
Except the dialog here is better.
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WulfDisciple of TzeentchThe Void... (New Jersey)Registered Userregular
BTW the Hormie is often regarded as one of the worst units in the nid codex
Honestly, I don't know why. I've killed more points of Orks with my 'gaunts than I have with my 'fexes. So there's that, plus the fact that Claw needs to work on improving his basic tactics, and its much easier to learn how to maneuver and use a few types of guys rather than being given ZOMGWTFLUX options right at the start. And yeah, with two squads of 8 stealers expect them to almost never, ever, EVER kill anything before they are focus-fired out of existence (I learned that from experience too)
BTW the Hormie is often regarded as one of the worst units in the nid codex
Honestly, I don't know why. I've killed more points of Orks with my 'gaunts than I have with my 'fexes
Gaunts themselves are great, people just hate on the hormagaunt. The general consensus is that he is a couple points overpriced. Come to think of it though, he is probably fantastic against Ork Boyz.
BTW the Hormie is often regarded as one of the worst units in the nid codex
Honestly, I don't know why. I've killed more points of Orks with my 'gaunts than I have with my 'fexes
Gaunts themselves are great, people just hate on the hormagaunt. The general consensus is that he is a couple points overpriced. Come to think of it though, he is probably fantastic against Ork Boyz.
I thought it was because of "SPINEGUANTS SPINEGUANTS FAPFAPFAPFAP"
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WulfDisciple of TzeentchThe Void... (New Jersey)Registered Userregular
edited April 2008
Hell, I've killed a Trukk with 'em :P Sure the kaboom took out half of my whoragaunts, but thats okay, they're cheap!
Posts
1000 Points Army
Necron Lord: 200 Points
- Res Orb: 40 Points
- Veil of Darkness: 60 Points
Necron Warriors: 792 Points
- 44 Necron Warriors: 18 Points each
They're pretty versatile. You can take 4 squads of 11. 1 squad of 20 and 2 squads of 12. Or even a squad of 14 and 3 squads of 10. I think the optimum combination would be a squad of 20, a squad of 11, and a squad of 13. But it's all up to you; the possible variation in Necron armies is endless.
That'd be a cool Apocalypse only army. Tyranids all Chaos'd up. Wow, I really want to see a Nurgle-fied Carnifex with Nurgling-esque rippers. Or a chaos'd genestealer cult.
I still want to field a 'stealer cult. =(
Oh come on now. You could throw a couple destroyers in there or something. Maybe a wraith or 2.
Here a super rough 1K list:
1 Demon Prince
10 Chaos Marines with Icon of Khorne and some guns
10 Beserkers with a P Fist
10 Beserkers With a P Fist
1 Land Raider
With upgrades it should come to around 1K.
Move the squads on foot up behind the raider or cover, then charge. Each squad will be effective against just about anything, and you have a few plasma guns and lascannons to deal with tricky skimmers or bigger things that might cause trouble.
Edit: or really, just keep practicing with your nids, it can take months of battles to really get good with an army, I see people start 40k all the time and get really frustrated when they get their clocks cleaned and give up, the trick is to just keep at it, everyone gets better eventually, even if they didn't have a ton of strategy experience before. Just remember to try and think about each battle afterward and what you could have done differently, then apply to the next battle.
Hive Tyrant @ 164 Pts
Enhanced Senses; Toxin Sacs; Twin-linked Devourer; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature; The Horror; Warp Field
Troops:
24 Gaunt Brood @ 144 Pts
Fleshborer
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
12 Hormagaunts @ 120 Pts
Scything Talons
Heavy Support:
Carnifex @ 148 Pts
Enhanced Senses; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon
Carnifex @ 113 Pts
Enhanced Senses; Twin-linked Devourer (x2)
3 Zoanthrope @ 195 Pts
Toxic Miasma; Synapse Creature(x3); Warp Blast(X3); Warp Field
Total Roster Cost: 1004
And here's a unit-by-unit breakdown of the reasons why, in the order you will deploy them...
He is your main source of Anti-Tank shooting, and also a big target by itself. Your opponent will most likely deploy his own tanks within shooting range of this Carnifex.
Deploy this Carnifex next to your first and your opponent will think you're going to set up all your models with these two, and shift his plans accordingly.
By placing these three models with the Carnifexes you've got their Synapse making all the models even harder to kill, and the Warp Blast shooting the same targets as the DakkaFex over 18" away or the S10 blast against tougher targets the ShootyFex couldn't take out.
Shoot the DakkaFex first, decide if you want the Zoanthropes to target the same unit or go after the same target as the ShootyFex after it fires.
Here is where the "Refused Flank" deployment develops. All of the units you've put on the board so far are shooting oriented, but with enough Close Combat ability in the Carnifexes to be able to take care of themselves. The rest of your deployment will be in a group 18"-24" away from the Heavy support and act as the Hammer to their Anvil. Deploy into cover. Deploy into cover. It's worth repeating.
Deploy this unit as far away from the Heavies as you can and about 4" back from the front limit of deployment, and say something along the lines of "I guess I should put a little something over here so you don't Infiltrate or Deep Strike behind me." If this works you opponent should still put his next unit across from the Heavies, if not then no big loss.
Deploy these in front of the Hormagaunts you've already placed, with enough room for the Tyrant to go in the middle of the whole lot and the other Hormagaunts on the other side of the blank space left for the Tyrant.
The reason for putting all 24 together is to make the brood more durable versus shooting, and to look more impressive and threatening than they really are. They will be able to lay out enough shots to sweep up remainders of the unit the Tyrant shot up, and if not a charge by two broods of Hormies should see to the rest.
Just place these Hormies as I describe above.
Place The Tyrant in the middle of your Troop formation where his Synapse will cover the most models and his shooting will be going after the same types of units as the Gaunts.
The Tyrant has a Barbed Strangler instead of a Venom Cannon and added Toxin Sacs so all your shooting is Strength 5 to make it more effective versus infantry. No need to remodel anything since the only other model with a Venom Cannon also has a Barbed Strangler just tell your opponents they're 'reversed' and you should have no problem. The change from Extended Carapace to Warp Field was made by dropping Psychic Scream (which is not worth it just as a -1 modifier), and the 6+ invulnerable will help a bit with survivability.
Leave shooting Vehicles to your Heavy Support choices, but if you get into Close Combat with any the added Strength from the Venom Sacs will be a nice bonus.
With this group shoot the Tyrant's Barbed Strangler first, resolve casualties and follow up with the Devourers. If there's anything left of that target have the Gaunts shoot it too, even if it's only one or two models. Your goal is to destroy as many complete units with your shooting as you can so that your Hormagaunts will have the benefit of overwhelming numbers of attacks in close combat.
As the game progresses move your Heavy Support "Anvil" and your Troop & HQ "Hammer" together so they can better mutually support each other.
Being 4 points over shouldn't matter too much, unless your opponent is a total dick, in which case tell him, "It's just 4 points, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it."
Try it this way a couple of times and see if it fits your play style.
......how can you not take Genestealers?
this is why i chose orks.
I don't care if i win or lose, as long as i Get to careen a ramshackle truck of green skinned maniacs with scraps of metal bolted on for heavy armor into my enemy, and If I'm lucky pop those boys out of the truck, covered by the smoldering remains of the vehicle (I'm considering modeling up a flaming tire to "roll out of the wreckage")
and while everyone is focused on this (how can they not be... i mean really...) i'll jam my warbikes and def koptas into the flanks of their main force!
And if that doesn't work that's ok, because it will have been fun enough to satisfy me.
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ 2x Heavy bolter and 1x Lascannon
Ace Tank: 210
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ 2x Heavy Bolter and 1x Lascannon
Tank units: 620
4x Leman Russ w/ 3x Heavy Bolter
Reconnaissance: 115
Hellhound
Heavy support: 155
Leman Russ Demolisher w/ 2x plasma cannons and 1x Heavy Bolter
Artillery: 100
Basilisk
Extra Armour on all units: 45
1500 points
I think giving the Exterminators the lascannon's gives them both AT and long range abilities, plus the BS 4 they have should make it a nice addition. And hell, that means they can only use a twin-linked autocannon and two heavy bolters against infantry, whatever will I do?
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
'Cause, really
Add some Witchhunter advesary mutants and cultists to a Genestealer list.
Holy shit, thats totally awesome. I have a friends bday coming up, and that would be a great idea...
Here, have your Internet High Ground and be done with it. I don't have a cat macro handy, but you can pretend, k champ?
A: Crons are bad because they exist in 2 extremes
G: No they don't
A: My list is all destroyers, so crons are bad because they exist in 2 extremes. Also, I own models (and feel this is relevant)
G: Having a destroyers list doesn't mean crons only exist in the 2 extremes
A: The tournament winner had a destroyer list, so crons are bad because they exist in 2 extremes
Because you don't need Genestealers.
Really. Truly. Honestly.
You'll get more attacks, cause more wounds, and have more failed saves causing more casualties from the same points value of Hormagaunts compared to Genestealers, even with Auto Wounds & No Saves from Rending. Plus Genestealers tend to draw more than their fair share of shooting from your opponent meaning less of them would even get into Close Combat in the first place.
Without Genestealers on the board the bigger threat to attract your opponents shooting will be the large units of Gaunts or the Tyrant in that grouping. You opponent will ignore the Hormagaunts at first because they aren't causing casualties from shooting like the Gaunts are, as well as your Monstrous Creatures from the other grouping also are.
Once the second or third turn rolls around and your Hormagaunts get into their 18" charge range your opponent might turn some attention their way. By then it's too late. You've got two units of Hormies, and your opponent can't take out both of them before they can charge and start causing lots of casualties in Close Combat. With your Gaunts shooting 18" the previous turn and your opponent most likely Rapid Firing into the Gaunts in response during his turn you now have a unit close enough for both units of Hormies to focus their combined attention upon. In the mean time your remaining Gaunts and Tyrant can move off to shoot at a different unit, or link up with the Monstrous Creatures for combined firepower and Synapse coverage while your Hormies are "safe" in Close Combat where they excel.
The same tactics apply at 1000 points as they do at 1800. You need to find out if your play style fits with the models you have, or if you need to add more, or try something different in the same Army before moving off to try another completely new force.
In fact, by keeping yourself to 1000 points for a few games you won't get distracted by all the nifty extras yoiu can get with 1800 points. To use an analogy it's like target shooting. If you learn with the bare minimums, just iron sights, then what you learn can be applied to adding telescopic sights, laser pointers and all the rest later. However, if you're using the telescopic sight and laser pointer as a crutch you can't do without, then when they're removed you don't know what to do. It's better to learn without all the bells & whistles (in this case Genestealers) and see what works for you than it is to try and learn using all the complexities at once.
http://www.webcookie.ca/techpriest/jv40kProb.html
It's not about Mathhammer, it's about finding if the Genestealers are a crutch Clawshrimpy's been relying on instead of learning proper tactics with Tyranids which fit his style of play.
Genestealers are a more likely target than Hormagaunts, and more Hormies will get into Close Combat more of the time, and cause more casualties.
Give it a try or two before turning to another Army, Clawshrimpy. We can type here until our fingers fall off, but it's your experiences on the tabletop which should be your deciding factor.
How does using so many guants over Genesteals fit my style of play, even I know Hormaguants don't fare well in melee combat, because they usually lack Entended Carapace, and they just don't hit as hard.
Having a high model-count in a marine army is necessary
I think he means per point, you can get 3 gaunts for the cost of a stealer and based on your link there, 3 gaunts shooting, then charging kills as many marines as 1 stealer charging, and 3 gaunts are probably tougher on the net then an 18 point stealer.
Edit: That's a good tool btw, I made up an excel sheet myself a few months ago with every weapon special rule on it... but i went one step too far and broke it, then couldn't figure out how to fix it and gave up, this will save me alot of time. Its too bad it doesn't have an "expected return" output though.
Doing 3 gaunts vs. 1 stealer in the probability model, with the gaunts shooting/charging (extremely forgiving model for the gaunts) you have a ~30% chance of killing 1 marine. On the charge, a stealer has a 57% chance of killing 1 marine.
It isn't how much force you use, it's how it is applied.
The point of my 1000 pont tweaking of your force is not to focus in on the benefits of any one particular unit, but to show which units can work better together, given the models you already have and the symmetry you have said you want to keep, along with using all 3 Zoanthropes.
Yes, Genestealers are better. However, you'll get more bang for the buck from Hormagaunts because Hormagaunts won't attract as much fire as the Genestealers would under the same situation.
If you had a unit of Genestealers in place of one of the units of Hormies your opponent would most likely target them due to the Genestealers reputation. However, without the Genestealers your opponent would most likely not target the Hormagaunts in the same way due to their lessened repuation, thereby enabling more of them to survive and be able to charge into combat. It's using what you have working together synchronistically.
Good point about the fleeting, I gotta say as a regular BA player there is nothing I fear more then 'stealers, as my jump pack army has virtually no way to deal with them. The effectiveness just h2h of gaunts vs. stealers converge as the opponent gets worse at h2h though.
You need to know how to hide models properly and use any synergies you can find (btw Frow, the word you were looking for was "Synchronicity" which is a bitchin' Police album) but that holds true for any list, at any time.
Yes the effectiveness definately converges, to the point where you would rather have gaunts against other gaunts, orcs, and some IG squads. Against MEQ gaunts lose the combat round after round, they are just kinda there to tie you up so the big guys can come eat you.
That's what your "Anvil" part is for. Having the different parts of your army work together towards a common goal.
No single unit will be an all-around best-at-everything. It's getting the different units to mutually support each other to cover each others weaknesses that makes the difference.
Also, your combined shooting from the Carnifexes will be the most likely focus of your opponents Heavy Hitters such as the Terminators, Nobz Mobs, etc., not the "Hammer" of Gaunts, Hormies, & Tyrant.
I'll take a look at your list and give you any advice, but the first thing off the top of my head is give the exterminator a hull HB and side HBs. You can ask SJ about mine. The combination of those weapons has killed something like 30 orks a game. And that was a straight bs3 exterminator. Think of that with bs 4 :rotate:
Oh crap I'm going to have to field my AC now.
This is like watching episode 3 of Star Wars, where Palpatine is converting Anakin. You are forced to watch the process, and it is painful, and you can't do anything to stop it.
Except the dialog here is better.
Honestly, I don't know why. I've killed more points of Orks with my 'gaunts than I have with my 'fexes. So there's that, plus the fact that Claw needs to work on improving his basic tactics, and its much easier to learn how to maneuver and use a few types of guys rather than being given ZOMGWTFLUX options right at the start. And yeah, with two squads of 8 stealers expect them to almost never, ever, EVER kill anything before they are focus-fired out of existence (I learned that from experience too)
Gaunts themselves are great, people just hate on the hormagaunt. The general consensus is that he is a couple points overpriced. Come to think of it though, he is probably fantastic against Ork Boyz.
I thought it was because of "SPINEGUANTS SPINEGUANTS FAPFAPFAPFAP"