Started up a Black Guard alt, and I'm liking it so far. I'm kind of disappointed in the lack of CC though. Guess I was expecting an elfy version of the IB, and instead it's more of a mirror of the Swordmaster despite the different mechanics. Still, I like how the Hatred mechanic works overall.
I am noticing that I get my shit wrecked by Knobs though, which is a little disheartening. Those guys just rip melee up.
I'm kind of disappointed in the lack of CC though. Guess I was expecting an elfy version of the IB, and instead it's more of a mirror of the Swordmaster despite the different mechanics.
I'm honestly puzzled by the disparity between the IB and pretty much every other tank class, in terms of crowd control potential. The design goal for WAR's tanks seemed to be something along the lines of "give them the CC so they can have an impact in RvR even when no one's targeting them." Which is pretty inspired, I think. But then they give wildly disparate toolsets to the different tanks, and given that some of those tools are more valuable than others, it leaves me perplexed. The IB seems significantly out in front in terms of CC potential, especially for those "more valuable" CCs like knockdowns and knockbacks. Do Destruction non-tank classes have more CC capability than Order's non-tanks? Is it some kind of effort to redress the ~30% average population bonus Destruction has over Order?
At any rate, I had really expected the Black Guard to at least have some extra CC potential in their Mastery trees. Not as much as the IB, sure, I could understand that, but at least something. I don't recall seeing any CC choices in their career builder, which is just disappointing. After having had so much fun in scenarios and keeps with my IB, I really want a CC-focused tank to play on Destruction side, and I guess it'll have to be a Blorc or Chosen.
I'm kind of disappointed in the lack of CC though. Guess I was expecting an elfy version of the IB, and instead it's more of a mirror of the Swordmaster despite the different mechanics.
I'm honestly puzzled by the disparity between the IB and pretty much every other tank class, in terms of crowd control potential. The design goal for WAR's tanks seemed to be something along the lines of "give them the CC so they can have an impact in RvR even when no one's targeting them." Which is pretty inspired, I think. But then they give wildly disparate toolsets to the different tanks, and given that some of those tools are more valuable than others, it leaves me perplexed. The IB seems significantly out in front in terms of CC potential, especially for those "more valuable" CCs like knockdowns and knockbacks. Do Destruction non-tank classes have more CC capability than Order's non-tanks? Is it some kind of effort to redress the ~30% average population bonus Destruction has over Order?
At any rate, I had really expected the Black Guard to at least have some extra CC potential in their Mastery trees. Not as much as the IB, sure, I could understand that, but at least something. I don't recall seeing any CC choices in their career builder, which is just disappointing. After having had so much fun in scenarios and keeps with my IB, I really want a CC-focused tank to play on Destruction side, and I guess it'll have to be a Blorc or Chosen.
Yeah, IIRC, the only CC the BG gets is a snare, a knockdown, and a knockback, all of which are available regardless of masteries.
I think my big disappointment with the BG is the lack of an Oath Friend mirror. One of the things I really like about the IB is that he can buff another person pretty significantly while also increasing his ability to gain Grudge. I was hoping there would be a similar thing like "Shared Hatred" or something so that I could buff the hell out of a WE (for example) and tear casters to pieces while gaining Hatred for her attacks. Maybe this would be overpowered? I have no idea, but it sounds cool to me.
I'm kind of disappointed in the lack of CC though. Guess I was expecting an elfy version of the IB, and instead it's more of a mirror of the Swordmaster despite the different mechanics.
I'm honestly puzzled by the disparity between the IB and pretty much every other tank class, in terms of crowd control potential. The design goal for WAR's tanks seemed to be something along the lines of "give them the CC so they can have an impact in RvR even when no one's targeting them." Which is pretty inspired, I think. But then they give wildly disparate toolsets to the different tanks, and given that some of those tools are more valuable than others, it leaves me perplexed. The IB seems significantly out in front in terms of CC potential, especially for those "more valuable" CCs like knockdowns and knockbacks. Do Destruction non-tank classes have more CC capability than Order's non-tanks? Is it some kind of effort to redress the ~30% average population bonus Destruction has over Order?
At any rate, I had really expected the Black Guard to at least have some extra CC potential in their Mastery trees. Not as much as the IB, sure, I could understand that, but at least something. I don't recall seeing any CC choices in their career builder, which is just disappointing. After having had so much fun in scenarios and keeps with my IB, I really want a CC-focused tank to play on Destruction side, and I guess it'll have to be a Blorc or Chosen.
Black Guards Path of Loathing's 65 foot cone snare not count or something? Thats one thing as an Ironbreaker I am envious of, as if anyone blocks, parries, or breaks my Binding Grudge and decides to run, theres jack shit I can do about it if they get out of melee range. A 65 foot cone is much cooler than the 30 foot AoE Earthshatter, also the snare lasts longer, though ES does far more damage. Also, although not CC per say, Choking Fury in Path of Anquish is damned cool.
This'll be pure speculation, but I would think the orc DPS class would get some kind of oath friend (dps buddy) system and the slayer/hammerer will get a hatred system. That sort of finishes the mechanics symmetry.
This'll be pure speculation, but I would think the orc DPS class would get some kind of oath friend (dps buddy) system and the slayer/hammerer will get a hatred system. That sort of finishes the mechanics symmetry.
That makes sense. The orc suffers from animosity and seeks to outdo or show off to a friendly rival target. Slayers could get pissed the longer they're not dying... though this sort of mechanic on a fragile dps class could be tough to balance.
This'll be pure speculation, but I would think the orc DPS class would get some kind of oath friend (dps buddy) system and the slayer/hammerer will get a hatred system. That sort of finishes the mechanics symmetry.
I don't think so, there's no rule that the mechanics have to be perfectly symmetrical. WL/SH pets are totally different.
Black Guards Path of Loathing's 65 foot cone snare not count or something?
Nah, I just forgot about that one. But it's one lonely CC mastery option, way deep at 13 points in the tree, compared to the IB's four mastery choices that add or buff CC, none of which are deeper than 9 points in their respective trees.
Edit: Also, you know what? I value snares a lot less than other CCs, to be honest. They're nice and all, but they usually don't keep melee DPS from getting to my nukers and healers, it just delays them. If someone's running away, he's fleeing from some place I want to control, so he can keep on running' for all I care. He's just one less guy to fight. I'll take a knockback or a knockdown over a snare any day.
Posted this in the main thread, but i figured I'd ask here.
So, ah...I must be playing the knob wrong. I'm level 7, and I routinely die more times than I'm involved in a kill, and I rarely breach 2 or 3 thousand damage.
Right now I'm using blazing blade as my primary attack (hit with that 3 times, then go with vicious strike or the one that ignores 25% toughness), and use the Gather Your Resolve battle command.
Posted this in the main thread, but i figured I'd ask here.
So, ah...I must be playing the knob wrong. I'm level 7, and I routinely die more times than I'm involved in a kill, and I rarely breach 2 or 3 thousand damage.
Right now I'm using blazing blade as my primary attack (hit with that 3 times, then go with vicious strike or the one that ignores 25% toughness), and use the Gather Your Resolve battle command.
Do I just phail?
Are you using a two-hander or do you have a shield?
Also the class composition of your scen group makes a huuuuge difference. Routinely in T1 I'll see only knobs while we'll have me as a DoK, few m/rdps classes, an actual healer, and tons of BG. I can keep two or three players alive by myself, and with a zealot or shaman around we're practically invincible.
So, how's everyone feel about the Black Guard so far? I've got mine to seventeen and I've been having a lot of fun with it, though my effectiveness in scenarios seems to go to shit if there's a lot of Knobs, Ironbreakers, Warrior Priests, or Bright Wizards.
After playing a decent amount, I think they definitely need to get a real and effective anti-armor skill. The only justification that can be given for lacking it is the whole anti-caster thing, but Black Guards aren't really anti-caster unless they spec for it... not to mention that Runepriests can boost their armor, Bright Wizards have a temporary armor buff, and Warrior Priests have medium armor to begin with. It really boggles my mind why they left this out in the first place, it's one of the Tank's most important offensive tools... and they decide to not give it to the designated offensive Tank?
Aside from that I think it would be fair for them to receive their CC at the same level as the Ironbreaker, but I suppose that would be asking too much. I also think they should get a silence, or at least be able to spec for one.
Oh, and I hope they fucking fix the sixty second cooldown bullshit on Hold the Line. I figured that would have been fixed before the Black Guard went live.
Suppose this sounds overly negative though, so I will say the career is really fun. Hate management is pretty cool, and though the Ironbreaker's set up is probably more effective, I do find this to be quite fun.
So, ah, should I be expecting my knob to get nerfed soon? I feel dirty being as badass as I am.
I hope not. I hope they nerf the black guard. Not because they're overpowered or even powered in any sense of the word, but so that people won't play them and I can stop fighting so many of them and maybe more people will play the new order class and maybe we can make the sides more even and the majority of every server won't be half naked.
I'm just kidding, that will never happen. Everyone loves being naked too much.
Okay, as far I can tell this is the way its shaking up tank-wise.
ORDER
Ironbreaker= Best CC/High relative damage if specced for it.
Knobs= Best Utility/Best anti-melee/decent dps
Swordmaster= Most non-physical damage/decent dps(?)
DESTRO
Chosen= Best Utility/PvE/good disrupt/cc
Black Orc= Best Survivability/Best overall damage for destro tanks?
Blackguard= Best Anti-caster/2nd best dps(?)/good cc(?)
(?) means that it is open to debate.
Edit: these are my personal views, and I would like to be corrected or verified by you guys. These are by no means "official".
how would you rank the different tanks in their respective roles now? Comments and opinions are welcome.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
Why does the blorc have more survivability than a chosen? I don't know much about blorcs was wondering what skill they get that results in this.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Blorcs get a skill that has been known to heal them for around 1k at rank 40 on 25% of their attacks.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
So are swordmasters as gimped as I keep hearing they are in higher tiers?
In tiers 1 and 2, I consistently place at the top or near the top in kills, killing blows, damage dealt, and usually have some of the fewest deaths in scenarios, but I keep hearing they're absolutely horrible at T3 and 4.
Blackguard= Best Anti-caster/2nd best dps(?)/good cc(?)
Aside from one mastery ability, a 65-foot cone snare which is waaaaay deep in their tanking tree, I don't think BGs get many CC mastery choices. They pretty much just have the same CC abilities all the tanks get. You could even argue their CC is a little weak because at least one of them (their single-target knockback) has its effectiveness tied to how much Hate they have. Chosen or Blorc have much better CC options, from what I've seen. The Blorc knockback is a small cone instead of being single target, and I think Chosen have the most CC mastery options of any Destro tank.
Blackguard= Best Anti-caster/2nd best dps(?)/good cc(?)
Aside from one mastery ability, a 65-foot cone snare which is waaaaay deep in their tanking tree, I don't think BGs get many CC mastery choices. They pretty much just have the same CC abilities all the tanks get. You could even argue their CC is a little weak because at least one of them (their single-target knockback) has its effectiveness tied to how much Hate they have. Chosen or Blorc have much better CC options, from what I've seen. The Blorc knockback is a small cone instead of being single target, and I think Chosen have the most CC mastery options of any Destro tank.
The knockdown is pretty nice at 90 hate, but it requires a shield and thus is not accesible to great weapon users. Not to mention having a reactive skill tied to hate levels leaves less room for planning. And as fast as I have hate generating with the "10 hate when you critical" tactic, sitting at 90 plus is rare. 60 I can see sometimes, but more realistically it will generally be closer to 30, putting it about on par with most other Tanks.
Their knockback is also tied to hate. I have not tried too many other tanks for comparisons though, so I cannot say how well it does. I've seen comments that it's pretty poor unless the Black Guard is sitting at 90 hate, but I suppose I'll see how it is when I get there (blech, having to wait until level 25 for it is a pain).
And on the anti-caster thing, they only really shine in that role if they spec Anguish. Though it's very debatable as to if they are better anti-casters than Chosen specced Discord, and Discord has the benefit of having decent CC and pretty nice damage due to the ability to lower resists and spam ravage, where as an Anguish Black Guard gives up damage by speccing Anquish as opposed to Malice.
So it could be argued that Chosen exceed in that role as well.
Okay, as far I can tell this is the way its shaking up tank-wise.
ORDER
Ironbreaker= Best CC/High relative damage if specced for it.
Knobs= Best Utility/Best anti-melee/decent dps
Swordmaster= Most non-physical damage/decent dps(?)
DESTRO
Chosen= Best Utility/PvE/good disrupt/cc
Black Orc= Best Survivability/Best overall damage for destro tanks?
Blackguard= Best Anti-caster/2nd best dps(?)/good cc(?)
(?) means that it is open to debate.
Edit: these are my personal views, and I would like to be corrected or verified by you guys. These are by no means "official".
how would you rank the different tanks in their respective roles now? Comments and opinions are welcome.
There's no way a Blorc is the highest DPS for Tanks, unless the changes to their attack mechanic fixed them that much. If I can get the same level of support as one and I'm the same base rank (not bolstered) I think I usually at least double their DPS on my Chosen.
Okay, as far I can tell this is the way its shaking up tank-wise.
ORDER
Ironbreaker= Best CC/High relative damage if specced for it.
Knobs= Best Utility/Best anti-melee/decent dps
Swordmaster= Most non-physical damage/decent dps(?)
DESTRO
Chosen= Best Utility/PvE/good disrupt/cc
Black Orc= Best Survivability/Best overall damage for destro tanks?
Blackguard= Best Anti-caster/2nd best dps(?)/good cc(?)
(?) means that it is open to debate.
Edit: these are my personal views, and I would like to be corrected or verified by you guys. These are by no means "official".
how would you rank the different tanks in their respective roles now? Comments and opinions are welcome.
There's no way a Blorc is the highest DPS for Tanks, unless the changes to their attack mechanic fixed them that much. If I can get the same level of support as one and I'm the same base rank (not bolstered) I think I usually at least double their DPS on my Chosen.
It did not. At level 34, Brawler Specc'd, 2-Hander, my Blorc most often hits middle of the pack for damage overall in scenarios as long as I'm having a "Stick To The Front" game and not a "Defend The Objective" game (or a "Get Spawn Camped By 4 Level 40 BWs Who Kill You In One Second" game).
As I said, I'm not an expert on all the tanks, and the listings were pure thoryhammering on my part. Based on forum research and anecdotal evidence. Feel free to tell me how the tanks actually stack up.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
I'm not too informed on other tanks, but this is how I'd personally place em...
ORDER___________________________________________
Dps: Ironbreaker. Grudge is harder to come by now, but still packs a punch.
Survivability: Swordmaster. Ironbreaker's tough, but the swordmaster's tougher when he wants to be and his damage shields are crazy. I've seen them solo T4 BOs with no potion usage.
Utility: KotBS; more of a guess than anything else. With so many auras, hard to see it not being this way...
CC: Iron breaker.
DESTRUCTION
Dps: Chosen
Survivability: Black Orc
Utility: Chosen
CC: ???
DESTRUCTION
Dps: Chosen
Survivability: Black Orc
Utility: Chosen
CC: ???
I'd give Chosen the nod for CC as well, if we're including Mastery abilities. Quake, Downfall and Hastened Dismissal can all be picked up if you're looking to do a CC-focused build with your Chosen, and the Chosen also gets a movement barb (Touch of Palsy).
I know I'm feeling that way looking at the masteries and comparing my 25 lvls as a Chosen to 13 as a BG. I do feel like I'm dealing more damage than my Chosen did at the same level but not by a lot. I don't think BGs are bad but I don't feel like I have a specific roll to play other than look awesome. I want IB levels of CC or a damage buff, I don't really care which, I just want to have a well defined roll that doesn't 100% require picking a mastary. Chosen/Knobs are always good at support, Blorcs/IBs are always good at defense. It would be hard to make Swordmasters/Blackguards focused on damage because then you are stepping on mDPS toes. How about attaching more/better debuffs onto our attacks? Turn the pairing into strong single target debuffers. Or do that for Swordmasters and give BG more CC since IB's rape face with theirs.
I've got to be the only person I know who thinks Blorcs need a good boost, too. I'd like to be able to do something with my time other than be a bag of hitpoints that occassionally does something neat. I'd also prefer my niche as a class not be tied into one ability, and a passive one at that (da Toughest).
This last patch gave Chosen the boost they needed to succeed at their role, but the last 3 tanks in the game still suffer a little from not being overly defined.
I would prefer they just pick an idea for each tank and dole it out. IB/Blorcs need to be the CC. Chosen/Knobs are the group/utility. SMs/BGs could be the damage tanks. Blorcs and Guards could be swapped without any impact. Swordmasters really just need a boost somewhere.
My philosophy is that all tanks should be hard to kill, and they already fit that. Your tree should add depth to your role, not redefine it.
I know I'm feeling that way looking at the masteries and comparing my 25 lvls as a Chosen to 13 as a BG. I do feel like I'm dealing more damage than my Chosen did at the same level but not by a lot. I don't think BGs are bad but I don't feel like I have a specific roll to play other than look awesome. I want IB levels of CC or a damage buff, I don't really care which, I just want to have a well defined roll that doesn't 100% require picking a mastary. Chosen/Knobs are always good at support, Blorcs/IBs are always good at defense. It would be hard to make Swordmasters/Blackguards focused on damage because then you are stepping on mDPS toes. How about attaching more/better debuffs onto our attacks? Turn the pairing into strong single target debuffers. Or do that for Swordmasters and give BG more CC since IB's rape face with theirs.
This is pretty much my feelings on the issue. The Black Guard is fun, it's cool, and it's not woefully ineffective... but it's definitely not where it should be, and definitely lacking in comparison to most other tanks. I've said this before, but I think the first big thing they need to do is admit that if every other tank in the game gets a decent way to bypass armor, so should the Black Guard. The only other tank that lacks one is the KoTBS, but they currently can at least spec to make many of their abilities elemental plus they get an unmitigatable damage reflect shield which helps to take on other tanks.
As it is the "defensive" Ironbreaker gets a very powerful anti-armor skill where as it would make more sense on the designated offensive Black Guard, particularly due to the fact that Order has a metric shit ton of armor buffs. In the past it has been argued that the Black Guard is anti-caster and thus lacks this, but the Black Guard simply isn't an effective anti-caster unless they spec for it and take very particular tactics. If the Black Guard is losing out on their anti-melee to be anti-caster, then they need to be anti-caster at their base. Even then I'm not sure how justified it would be, as the KoTBS gets to be anti-melee and still gets a resistance boost and a pretty powerful non-mastery disruption tactic.
On the subject of tactics, I think they are another thing that needs to be reviewed. As it is, the Black Guard has some very powerful tactics. However, one definite complaint that I feel has merit is that the Black Guard is too reliant on their tactics. For an example, an offensive Black Guard is going to be relying on at least two tactics just to regulate hate. When you only get four tactic slots in total this is a pretty significant sacrifice, particularly as it discourages speccing into more than one line. Meanwhile their mastery abilities (and many of our abilities in general) run the gambit from "pretty cool" to "What the fucking hell is this shit and why is it here?"
The other big thing I think needs to be addressed is CC. I don't think the Black Guard needs to be as good as the Ironbreaker in this category (assuming the other changes mentioned are put in), but the Black Guard is pretty lacking here.
Taken longer than I meant to to type this out, and pretty much just repeating myself though. But yeah, that's my stance so far. Maybe getting to a higher level will change my outlook though.
In the past it has been argued that the Black Guard is anti-caster and thus lacks this [armor debuff], but the Black Guard simply isn't an effective anti-caster unless they spec for it and take very particular tactics. If the Black Guard is losing out on their anti-melee to be anti-caster, then they need to be anti-caster at their base.
I really have to disagree with you on this one Iblis. I haven't played a BG (but i theorycraft compulsively and have played a tank extensively, so I have a good handle on their skills/tactics) so I'll refrain from making any generalizations on the performance of the class. That said, it has been made clear that BG's are primarily meant to take out (or otherwise nullify) casters, the fact that they have to spend tactic slots and master points to achieve this stated goal is just a fact of the game. Every class has to spend their tactic slots in order to fulfill the role that their class is designed for. Your argument is like saying that a rune priest/zealot shouldn't have to spend their tactic slots/mastery points on healing tactics to fulfill their role as a main healer, or a witch hunter/elf shouldn't have to spend tactics/mastery points to burst down squishies. Tanks always win fights by attrition, and BG's are pretty unique in their proficiency at mitigating damage/healing done by casters which helps them win fights that normal tanks would lose. There has to be a downside to this strength, though. It would be crazy for BG's to be as effective against casters as they are and still be on the same level as every other tank against beefier melee opponents.
I think the presence of an entire mastery tree devoted to countering magic classes is a pretty big hint on how you are supposed to spec/use the character. Now, I'm not one to argue that anyone has to spec their toon in a certain way, but if you ignore the anti-magic tree, then you're really robbing yourself of your niche in the game. It's like a rune priest spec'ed for damage; you can still (maybe) make a good contribution to your team, but you probably aren't going to come close to the contribution you could make if you specialized your character to better fit their intended role.
Anyway, BG are probably suffering from being the role mirror of the sword master. Now that's a class that really needs an overhaul =/
I've got to be the only person I know who thinks Blorcs need a good boost, too. I'd like to be able to do something with my time other than be a bag of hitpoints that occassionally does something neat. I'd also prefer my niche as a class not be tied into one ability, and a passive one at that (da Toughest).
This last patch gave Chosen the boost they needed to succeed at their role, but the last 3 tanks in the game still suffer a little from not being overly defined.
I would prefer they just pick an idea for each tank and dole it out. IB/Blorcs need to be the CC. Chosen/Knobs are the group/utility. SMs/BGs could be the damage tanks. Blorcs and Guards could be swapped without any impact. Swordmasters really just need a boost somewhere.
My philosophy is that all tanks should be hard to kill, and they already fit that. Your tree should add depth to your role, not redefine it.
I dunno. I think you could consider the blorcs to be the harassers. They live forever, and while they don't do great damage they do make things extremely difficult for casters.
I team up with one on my dok and just the two of us can take out an archmage, runepreist or bright wizard. And his knockback can be used in a pinch when they're focusing me to much. Blorcs seem to have a lot of utility buff wise.
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On an unrelated note, no one is allowed to talk about how Ironbreaker crowd control got buffed last patch.
I am noticing that I get my shit wrecked by Knobs though, which is a little disheartening. Those guys just rip melee up.
At any rate, I had really expected the Black Guard to at least have some extra CC potential in their Mastery trees. Not as much as the IB, sure, I could understand that, but at least something. I don't recall seeing any CC choices in their career builder, which is just disappointing. After having had so much fun in scenarios and keeps with my IB, I really want a CC-focused tank to play on Destruction side, and I guess it'll have to be a Blorc or Chosen.
Yeah, IIRC, the only CC the BG gets is a snare, a knockdown, and a knockback, all of which are available regardless of masteries.
I think my big disappointment with the BG is the lack of an Oath Friend mirror. One of the things I really like about the IB is that he can buff another person pretty significantly while also increasing his ability to gain Grudge. I was hoping there would be a similar thing like "Shared Hatred" or something so that I could buff the hell out of a WE (for example) and tear casters to pieces while gaining Hatred for her attacks. Maybe this would be overpowered? I have no idea, but it sounds cool to me.
Black Guards Path of Loathing's 65 foot cone snare not count or something? Thats one thing as an Ironbreaker I am envious of, as if anyone blocks, parries, or breaks my Binding Grudge and decides to run, theres jack shit I can do about it if they get out of melee range. A 65 foot cone is much cooler than the 30 foot AoE Earthshatter, also the snare lasts longer, though ES does far more damage. Also, although not CC per say, Choking Fury in Path of Anquish is damned cool.
That makes sense. The orc suffers from animosity and seeks to outdo or show off to a friendly rival target. Slayers could get pissed the longer they're not dying... though this sort of mechanic on a fragile dps class could be tough to balance.
I don't think so, there's no rule that the mechanics have to be perfectly symmetrical. WL/SH pets are totally different.
No, mostly wishful thinking for my part. Mythic hasn't even hinted at it - it's really just speculation.
Edit: Also, you know what? I value snares a lot less than other CCs, to be honest. They're nice and all, but they usually don't keep melee DPS from getting to my nukers and healers, it just delays them. If someone's running away, he's fleeing from some place I want to control, so he can keep on running' for all I care. He's just one less guy to fight. I'll take a knockback or a knockdown over a snare any day.
So, ah...I must be playing the knob wrong. I'm level 7, and I routinely die more times than I'm involved in a kill, and I rarely breach 2 or 3 thousand damage.
Right now I'm using blazing blade as my primary attack (hit with that 3 times, then go with vicious strike or the one that ignores 25% toughness), and use the Gather Your Resolve battle command.
Do I just phail?
Are you using a two-hander or do you have a shield?
Also the class composition of your scen group makes a huuuuge difference. Routinely in T1 I'll see only knobs while we'll have me as a DoK, few m/rdps classes, an actual healer, and tons of BG. I can keep two or three players alive by myself, and with a zealot or shaman around we're practically invincible.
EDIT: Nevermind, I hit level 8 and the problem resolved itself.
After playing a decent amount, I think they definitely need to get a real and effective anti-armor skill. The only justification that can be given for lacking it is the whole anti-caster thing, but Black Guards aren't really anti-caster unless they spec for it... not to mention that Runepriests can boost their armor, Bright Wizards have a temporary armor buff, and Warrior Priests have medium armor to begin with. It really boggles my mind why they left this out in the first place, it's one of the Tank's most important offensive tools... and they decide to not give it to the designated offensive Tank?
Aside from that I think it would be fair for them to receive their CC at the same level as the Ironbreaker, but I suppose that would be asking too much. I also think they should get a silence, or at least be able to spec for one.
Oh, and I hope they fucking fix the sixty second cooldown bullshit on Hold the Line. I figured that would have been fixed before the Black Guard went live.
Suppose this sounds overly negative though, so I will say the career is really fun. Hate management is pretty cool, and though the Ironbreaker's set up is probably more effective, I do find this to be quite fun.
I one to one a 19 kotbs in Stonetroll Crossing as a level 12 and we both die at the same rate?
Or is that the bolster talking?
I hope not. I hope they nerf the black guard. Not because they're overpowered or even powered in any sense of the word, but so that people won't play them and I can stop fighting so many of them and maybe more people will play the new order class and maybe we can make the sides more even and the majority of every server won't be half naked.
I'm just kidding, that will never happen. Everyone loves being naked too much.
I would be surprised if any of you guys have more titles earned from being naked than I do.
ORDER
Ironbreaker= Best CC/High relative damage if specced for it.
Knobs= Best Utility/Best anti-melee/decent dps
Swordmaster= Most non-physical damage/decent dps(?)
DESTRO
Chosen= Best Utility/PvE/good disrupt/cc
Black Orc= Best Survivability/Best overall damage for destro tanks?
Blackguard= Best Anti-caster/2nd best dps(?)/good cc(?)
(?) means that it is open to debate.
Edit: these are my personal views, and I would like to be corrected or verified by you guys. These are by no means "official".
how would you rank the different tanks in their respective roles now? Comments and opinions are welcome.
In tiers 1 and 2, I consistently place at the top or near the top in kills, killing blows, damage dealt, and usually have some of the fewest deaths in scenarios, but I keep hearing they're absolutely horrible at T3 and 4.
? Don't chosen get to heal themselves on defenses? So every block?
You can block like twenty times in a second but only attack once every 1.5 seconds + autoattack.
Guess I'll get to 40 and see how survivable I get.
The knockdown is pretty nice at 90 hate, but it requires a shield and thus is not accesible to great weapon users. Not to mention having a reactive skill tied to hate levels leaves less room for planning. And as fast as I have hate generating with the "10 hate when you critical" tactic, sitting at 90 plus is rare. 60 I can see sometimes, but more realistically it will generally be closer to 30, putting it about on par with most other Tanks.
Their knockback is also tied to hate. I have not tried too many other tanks for comparisons though, so I cannot say how well it does. I've seen comments that it's pretty poor unless the Black Guard is sitting at 90 hate, but I suppose I'll see how it is when I get there (blech, having to wait until level 25 for it is a pain).
And on the anti-caster thing, they only really shine in that role if they spec Anguish. Though it's very debatable as to if they are better anti-casters than Chosen specced Discord, and Discord has the benefit of having decent CC and pretty nice damage due to the ability to lower resists and spam ravage, where as an Anguish Black Guard gives up damage by speccing Anquish as opposed to Malice.
So it could be argued that Chosen exceed in that role as well.
There's no way a Blorc is the highest DPS for Tanks, unless the changes to their attack mechanic fixed them that much. If I can get the same level of support as one and I'm the same base rank (not bolstered) I think I usually at least double their DPS on my Chosen.
It did not. At level 34, Brawler Specc'd, 2-Hander, my Blorc most often hits middle of the pack for damage overall in scenarios as long as I'm having a "Stick To The Front" game and not a "Defend The Objective" game (or a "Get Spawn Camped By 4 Level 40 BWs Who Kill You In One Second" game).
they do not win at damage output
ORDER___________________________________________ DESTRUCTION
Dps:
Survivability:
Utility:
CC:
I'm not too informed on other tanks, but this is how I'd personally place em...
ORDER___________________________________________
Dps: Ironbreaker. Grudge is harder to come by now, but still packs a punch.
Survivability: Swordmaster. Ironbreaker's tough, but the swordmaster's tougher when he wants to be and his damage shields are crazy. I've seen them solo T4 BOs with no potion usage.
Utility: KotBS; more of a guess than anything else. With so many auras, hard to see it not being this way...
CC: Iron breaker.
DESTRUCTION
Dps: Chosen
Survivability: Black Orc
Utility: Chosen
CC: ???
I know I'm feeling that way looking at the masteries and comparing my 25 lvls as a Chosen to 13 as a BG. I do feel like I'm dealing more damage than my Chosen did at the same level but not by a lot. I don't think BGs are bad but I don't feel like I have a specific roll to play other than look awesome. I want IB levels of CC or a damage buff, I don't really care which, I just want to have a well defined roll that doesn't 100% require picking a mastary. Chosen/Knobs are always good at support, Blorcs/IBs are always good at defense. It would be hard to make Swordmasters/Blackguards focused on damage because then you are stepping on mDPS toes. How about attaching more/better debuffs onto our attacks? Turn the pairing into strong single target debuffers. Or do that for Swordmasters and give BG more CC since IB's rape face with theirs.
This last patch gave Chosen the boost they needed to succeed at their role, but the last 3 tanks in the game still suffer a little from not being overly defined.
I would prefer they just pick an idea for each tank and dole it out. IB/Blorcs need to be the CC. Chosen/Knobs are the group/utility. SMs/BGs could be the damage tanks. Blorcs and Guards could be swapped without any impact. Swordmasters really just need a boost somewhere.
My philosophy is that all tanks should be hard to kill, and they already fit that. Your tree should add depth to your role, not redefine it.
This is pretty much my feelings on the issue. The Black Guard is fun, it's cool, and it's not woefully ineffective... but it's definitely not where it should be, and definitely lacking in comparison to most other tanks. I've said this before, but I think the first big thing they need to do is admit that if every other tank in the game gets a decent way to bypass armor, so should the Black Guard. The only other tank that lacks one is the KoTBS, but they currently can at least spec to make many of their abilities elemental plus they get an unmitigatable damage reflect shield which helps to take on other tanks.
As it is the "defensive" Ironbreaker gets a very powerful anti-armor skill where as it would make more sense on the designated offensive Black Guard, particularly due to the fact that Order has a metric shit ton of armor buffs. In the past it has been argued that the Black Guard is anti-caster and thus lacks this, but the Black Guard simply isn't an effective anti-caster unless they spec for it and take very particular tactics. If the Black Guard is losing out on their anti-melee to be anti-caster, then they need to be anti-caster at their base. Even then I'm not sure how justified it would be, as the KoTBS gets to be anti-melee and still gets a resistance boost and a pretty powerful non-mastery disruption tactic.
On the subject of tactics, I think they are another thing that needs to be reviewed. As it is, the Black Guard has some very powerful tactics. However, one definite complaint that I feel has merit is that the Black Guard is too reliant on their tactics. For an example, an offensive Black Guard is going to be relying on at least two tactics just to regulate hate. When you only get four tactic slots in total this is a pretty significant sacrifice, particularly as it discourages speccing into more than one line. Meanwhile their mastery abilities (and many of our abilities in general) run the gambit from "pretty cool" to "What the fucking hell is this shit and why is it here?"
The other big thing I think needs to be addressed is CC. I don't think the Black Guard needs to be as good as the Ironbreaker in this category (assuming the other changes mentioned are put in), but the Black Guard is pretty lacking here.
Taken longer than I meant to to type this out, and pretty much just repeating myself though. But yeah, that's my stance so far. Maybe getting to a higher level will change my outlook though.
I really have to disagree with you on this one Iblis. I haven't played a BG (but i theorycraft compulsively and have played a tank extensively, so I have a good handle on their skills/tactics) so I'll refrain from making any generalizations on the performance of the class. That said, it has been made clear that BG's are primarily meant to take out (or otherwise nullify) casters, the fact that they have to spend tactic slots and master points to achieve this stated goal is just a fact of the game. Every class has to spend their tactic slots in order to fulfill the role that their class is designed for. Your argument is like saying that a rune priest/zealot shouldn't have to spend their tactic slots/mastery points on healing tactics to fulfill their role as a main healer, or a witch hunter/elf shouldn't have to spend tactics/mastery points to burst down squishies. Tanks always win fights by attrition, and BG's are pretty unique in their proficiency at mitigating damage/healing done by casters which helps them win fights that normal tanks would lose. There has to be a downside to this strength, though. It would be crazy for BG's to be as effective against casters as they are and still be on the same level as every other tank against beefier melee opponents.
I think the presence of an entire mastery tree devoted to countering magic classes is a pretty big hint on how you are supposed to spec/use the character. Now, I'm not one to argue that anyone has to spec their toon in a certain way, but if you ignore the anti-magic tree, then you're really robbing yourself of your niche in the game. It's like a rune priest spec'ed for damage; you can still (maybe) make a good contribution to your team, but you probably aren't going to come close to the contribution you could make if you specialized your character to better fit their intended role.
Anyway, BG are probably suffering from being the role mirror of the sword master. Now that's a class that really needs an overhaul =/
I dunno. I think you could consider the blorcs to be the harassers. They live forever, and while they don't do great damage they do make things extremely difficult for casters.
I team up with one on my dok and just the two of us can take out an archmage, runepreist or bright wizard. And his knockback can be used in a pinch when they're focusing me to much. Blorcs seem to have a lot of utility buff wise.