Right. Mormon history isn't any more or less racist than anyone else's but the last two decades they have worked very hard to build a presence in black communities and I think (not sure) BYU started offering a lot of minority scholarships.
so whats it like willingly joining a church that gave millions of dollars to oppress your fellow americans
just wanna know
Explain in detail what you're talking about and I'll answer directly. I won't even put it off or avoid it like people like to do.
Also one time in the SE++ WoW guild I got demoted to a rank called Teefs. This is like meeting a celebrity.
don't be retarded, she's talking about prop 8
Don't be a dick.
Personally, I have no problem with gays at all. But when you get to the topic of marriage, it depends on what they're actually wanting.
Do they want to walk down an aisle and kiss and be recognized as life partners? Or do they want God to recognize their marriage?
If it's the latter, maybe they should join a church that doesn't feel marriage is the sacred bond between a man and a woman. Just saying.
That last line doesn't mean anything. A gay couple in CA cannot recieve all the benefits of marriage (tax breaks, inheiratance, hospital visits, etc) because of prop 8. Eat shit.
Choke on a fucking cock. Don't go being a dick to me because of something other peole voted for. I would've voted against it.
Separation of church and state? Fuck yes. But that still has everything to do with the religion itself not wanting to count gay people as "married."
And even then, now understand I'm new to the scriptures and haven't read all of them, the scriptures may not have even said jack shit about gays and marriage and it only being between a man and woman.
Fucking news flash: People are not perfect. They can be wrong and they can do stupid fucking things.
Thank you.
You may want to get on that reading part, it helps understand your ass from what J.C. rode into town on.
The bible does say man should not lay with man like he does with woman and it is an abomination. That's paraphrasing of course.
The bible also says shell fish are an abomination though.
Also you can stone your wife, own slaves, and sell your disobedient children.
Perhaps the book shouldn't be used to determine modern laws. Just saying.
the bible has a lot of things that people don't understand, and most of the little things/commandments in the Law of Moses became unnecessary with the higher law that Christ established
plus the book of mormon is at least consistent with its doctrine, so you can't really get confused about what we consider to be right/wrong by what's in it
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FandyienBut Otto, what about us? Registered Userregular
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long held to the doctrine of separation of church and state originating in part from the long antagonism local and state governments have had towards their faith. Mormon writings have affirmed "[n]o domination of the state by the church; No church interference with the functions of the state; No state interference with the functions of the church, or with the free exercise of religion; The absolute freedom of the individual from the domination of ecclesiastical authority in political affairs; The equality of all churches before the law." The Church's official Articles of Faith, which outline the basic beliefs of the church, state that: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law".[43] [44] Church founder Joseph Smith wrote, "We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it,... but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Right. Mormon history isn't any more or less racist than anyone else's but the last two decades they have worked very hard to build a presence in black communities and I think (not sure) BYU started offering a lot of minority scholarships.
so whats it like willingly joining a church that gave millions of dollars to oppress your fellow americans
just wanna know
Explain in detail what you're talking about and I'll answer directly. I won't even put it off or avoid it like people like to do.
Also one time in the SE++ WoW guild I got demoted to a rank called Teefs. This is like meeting a celebrity.
don't be retarded, she's talking about prop 8
Don't be a dick.
Personally, I have no problem with gays at all. But when you get to the topic of marriage, it depends on what they're actually wanting.
Do they want to walk down an aisle and kiss and be recognized as life partners? Or do they want God to recognize their marriage?
If it's the latter, maybe they should join a church that doesn't feel marriage is the sacred bond between a man and a woman. Just saying.
That last line doesn't mean anything. A gay couple in CA cannot recieve all the benefits of marriage (tax breaks, inheiratance, hospital visits, etc) because of prop 8. Eat shit.
Choke on a fucking cock. Don't go being a dick to me because of something other peole voted for. I would've voted against it.
Separation of church and state? Fuck yes. But that still has everything to do with the religion itself not wanting to count gay people as "married."
And even then, now understand I'm new to the scriptures and haven't read all of them, the scriptures may not have even said jack shit about gays and marriage and it only being between a man and woman.
Fucking news flash: People are not perfect. They can be wrong and they can do stupid fucking things.
Thank you.
You may want to get on that reading part, it helps understand your ass from what J.C. rode into town on.
The bible does say man should not lay with man like he does with woman and it is an abomination. That's paraphrasing of course.
The bible also says shell fish are an abomination though.
Also you can stone your wife, own slaves, and sell your disobedient children.
Perhaps the book shouldn't be used to determine modern laws. Just saying.
the bible has a lot of things that people don't understand, and most of the little things/commandments in the Law of Moses became unnecessary with the higher law that Christ established
plus the book of mormon is at least consistent with its doctrine, so you can't really get confused about what we consider to be right/wrong by what's in it
Granted, but the arguments christian groups use against subject, for example gay marriage, all come out of old testament writings.
Remember, that book wasn't good enough for christians. They wanted a new book, with a better main character.
Any religion desires converts. Even if they weren't rewarded for it, they would still desire to do it. Human beings have a tendency to desire to be surrounded by people like them.
They convert and pop out so many babies because it increases the money flow. Plain and simple.
I don't try to convert people to atheism, but I almost unconsciously attempt to reinforce those that have a similar outlook by agreeing vehemently with them.
Well, we are all alone and when you die you become worm food doesn't really got that much of a mass appeal.
I could easily craft epic stories and positive anecdotes about it if I tried. Alot of it tied up in history, psychology, and astrology but like anything else it can be simplified for children to understand.
For example: "Since the beginning of time, when mass and energy were first borne into the universe, the stars and their light filled the cosmos with energy. We are born of the light of stars, and when we die we return unto them first as bones, and then ash, and then of the same energy that would give birth to new stars."
Basically the song "We are all made of stars" taken to a 'holy' level.
Right. Mormon history isn't any more or less racist than anyone else's but the last two decades they have worked very hard to build a presence in black communities and I think (not sure) BYU started offering a lot of minority scholarships.
All the best athletes are black!
Come on now, Latinos and Asians are doing awesome in baseball.
I don't understand why you're so confused about this, Teefs.
If gays want to get married, that's their own business. Passing laws so that they cannot based upon your own religion is wrong.
This means I don't think Prop 8 should have been passed. At all.
There's little justification in it being in the Bible or Book of Mormon, either. Everybody has the right to decide what they want to do, whether you agree or not.
Saying "because it's a sin" is not a reason. Denying the gospel is technically a sin, but you don't pass laws to make people follow it. And if you want to, pffffffff.
Marriage is a legal institution in the United States as well as a religious one
prop 8 banned gays from participating in both
No just the legal. A law can't ban a religious ceremony taking place they can just take away it's ability to bestow a license.
Which brings us back to the point that recognizing a religious ceremony with a legal institution is a violation of the establishment clause in the first place, but oh well.
Then when you start saying "ok, this religious ceremony will be counted as a legal contract but not this other one" then you have First and Fourteenth violations.
Basically prop 8 is gonna be soooo fucked in the State's High Court.
edit: er, thanks, Fandy, I guess. I guess I'm still at <1 year.
I don't understand why you're so confused about this, Teefs.
If gays want to get married, that's their own business. Passing laws so that they cannot based upon your own religion is wrong.
This means I don't think Prop 8 should have been passed. At all.
There's little justification in it being in the Bible or Book of Mormon, either. Everybody has the right to decide what they want to do, whether you agree or not.
Saying "because it's a sin" is not a reason. Denying the gospel is technically a sin, but you don't pass laws to make people follow it. And if you want to, pffffffff.
git outtah mah thread, we dahn't cotton tah yer type round here
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
BTW, aren't Mormons those nut jobs that baptize dead people? Against the deceased's or their families' will?
I should probably just let this sit, but...
The whole baptism for the dead thing is widely misunderstood. It is believed within the church that EVERYONE will be given a chance to accept the Gospel, whether they heard it in this life or the next. And since ordinances (like baptism, etc) are essential to "accepting" the Gospel everyone has to have performed those ordinances. So here's the tricky part: if you are deceased and accept the Gospel in the next life, how would you get baptized? Well, someone down here does it by proxy for you and you accept the work done for you while in the next life. The baptism done for the deceased doesn't FORCE them to be a member of the church, its just kind of like a service we perform for them should they choose to need it in the next life.
WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
edited February 2009
oh man somebody last page mentioned the "your own planet thing"
Yeah, so there is some kind of mormom belief that if you do everything right, when you die you get to become god of your own universe, only you still have within this new universe adhere to the laws of where you came from, that god itself being the spirit of somebody who died before you and fffffffffffffffff
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FandyienBut Otto, what about us? Registered Userregular
oh man somebody last page mentioned the "you're own planet thing"
Yeah, so there is some kind of mormom belief that if you do everything right, when you die you get to become god of your own universe, only you still have within this new universe adhere to the laws of where you came from, that god itself being the spirit of somebody who died before you and fffffffffffffffff
oh man somebody last page mentioned the "your own planet thing"
Yeah, so there is some kind of mormom belief that if you do everything right, when you die you get to become god of your own universe, only you still have within this new universe adhere to the laws of where you came from, that god itself being the spirit of somebody who died before you and fffffffffffffffff
It's my understanding that that is intepretation.
It says God sent us here to learn from our trials and tribulations to be more like Him. That doesn't mean when we turn 16 we get the keys to our own universe.
Granted, but the arguments christian groups use against subject, for example gay marriage, all come out of old testament writings.
Remember, that book wasn't good enough for christians. They wanted a new book, with a better main character.
There are also some sparse things in the new testament, but yeah, I agree that it could look dumb plucking things from the OT.
as for the Book of Mormon (I keep spelling it "boom" for some reason), though, anyone who says "it isn't good enough" really hasn't read it with an open mind. A friend of mine said that while he was missionary'ing it up in France that some french guy was like "yeah I've heard of that book. My dad researched it, trying to prove that a single man wrote it. He couldn't."
Apparently the guy's dad was some prominent literature dude who could do such things. Said guy didn't convert, though.
Take the story with a grain of salt, but hey; reading the book for yourself couldn't hurt. It's pretty obvious that one man could not have created so coherent of a book in less than a year
BTW, aren't Mormons those nut jobs that baptize dead people? Against the deceased's or their families' will?
I should probably just let this sit, but...
The whole baptism for the dead thing is widely misunderstood. It is believed within the church that EVERYONE will be given a chance to accept the Gospel, whether they heard it in this life or the next. And since ordinances (like baptism, etc) are essential to "accepting" the Gospel everyone has to have performed those ordinances. So here's the tricky part: if you are deceased and accept the Gospel in the next life, how would you get baptized? Well, someone down here does it by proxy for you and you accept the work done for you while in the next life. The baptism done for the deceased doesn't FORCE them to be a member of the church, its just kind of like a service we perform for them should they choose to need it in the next life.
Still damn offensive to not ask the relatives for permission.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
oh man somebody last page mentioned the "your own planet thing"
Yeah, so there is some kind of mormom belief that if you do everything right, when you die you get to become god of your own universe, only you still have within this new universe adhere to the laws of where you came from, that god itself being the spirit of somebody who died before you and fffffffffffffffff
Puppies grow up to be Dogs. Kitties grow up to be Cats. Children of God grow up to be?
HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
Also, that whole baptism Mormon thing for already deceased non-Mormons, yeah, that's fucking wrong. It just is. Stop that. Don't defend it, because you're just wrong.
I can't see about 25% of the posts on the last page did anything happen
Basically we talked about why Prop 8 shouldn't have been passed and was wrong and wondered why you're so up in arms towards me about it.
At least I wondered that, anyway. I'm right there with you on the banning gay marriage thing, man.
I totally understand that, but you're still joining a church that donated 32 million dollars to ban gay marriage in two states
you don't see anything ethically wrong about that
how do your reconcile your belief that gay marriage is okay and then join a group of people who don't!
Religious cherry picking. Nothing new.
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
edited February 2009
The principle of eternal progression cannot be precisely defined or comprehended, yet it is fundamental to the LDS worldview. The phrase "eternal progression" first occurs in the discourses of Brigham Young. It embodies many concepts taught by Joseph Smith, especially in his King Follett discourse. It is based on the proposition that "there is no such thing as principle, power, wisdom, knowledge, life, position, or anything that can be imagined, that remains stationary—they must increase or decrease" (Young, JD 1:350).
Progression takes many forms. In one sense, eternal progression refers to everything that people learn and experience by their choices as they progress from premortal life, to mortality, to postmortal spirit life, and to a resurrected state in the presence of God. Personal progression is possible in each of these states, but not the same kind of progression. Progression apparently occurred in the premortal life, for most spirits there chose to follow Christ and some were noble and great, while others chose to follow Lucifer. Entering mortality affords opportunities for further progression. Obtaining a physical body is a crucial step, enabling a person to experience physical sensations of all kinds and to progress in knowledge and understanding, all of which will rise with the person in the Resurrection (D&C 130:18). Brigham Young taught that even in mortality, "We are in eternity" (JD 10:22), and the object of this existence is "to learn to enjoy more, and to increase in knowledge and experience" (JD 14:228). "When we have learned to live according to the full value of the life we now possess, we are prepared for further advancement in the scale of eternal progression—for a more glorious and exalted sphere" (JD 9:168).
Life is never static. "One must progress or retrograde. One cannot stand still. Activity is the law of growth, and growth, progress, is the law of life" (A. Bowen, in Christ's Ideals for Living, O. Tanner, ed., Salt Lake City, 1980, p. 368). A person's attitude about ""eternal progression' will largely determine his philosophy of life…exalting, increasing, expanding and extending broader and broader until we can know as we are known, see as we are seen" (Young, JD 16:165).
At the Resurrection and Judgment, people will be assigned a degree of glory. Further progress is believed possible within each degree. Marriage and family life, however, continue only in the Celestial Kingdom, allowing "eternal increase" through having spirit children (see Eternal Lives, Eternal Increase). "All this and more that cannot enter into our hearts to conceive is promised to the faithful, and are but so many stages in that ceaseless progression of eternal lives" (Young, JD 10:5).
No official Church teaching attempts to specify all the ways in which God progresses in his exalted spheres; "there is no end to [His] works, neither to [His] words" (Moses 1:38). God's glory and power are enhanced as his children progress in glory and power (see Moses 1:39; Young, JD 10:5). Ideas have been advanced to explain how God might progress in knowledge and still be perfect and know all things (see Foreknowledge of God; Omnipotent God).
The concept of eternal progression is a salient feature of the gospel of Jesus Christ, readily distinguishable from traditional Christian theology. The philosophical views of the Middle Ages were basically incompatible with such a concept, and the idea of progress that emerged in the eighteenth-century Enlightenment was that of social evolution (Bury, The Idea of Progress, London, 1932). The traditional Christian view has held that those in heaven enter "a state of eternal, inactive joy. In the presence of God they would worship him and sing praises to him eternally, but nothing more" (Widtsoe, p. 142). Latter-day Saints, however, constantly seek personal and righteous improvement not only by establishing Zion in this world, but by anticipating the continuation of progression eternally.
oh man somebody last page mentioned the "your own planet thing"
Yeah, so there is some kind of mormom belief that if you do everything right, when you die you get to become god of your own universe, only you still have within this new universe adhere to the laws of where you came from, that god itself being the spirit of somebody who died before you and fffffffffffffffff
Puppies grow up to be Dogs. Kitties grow up to be Cats. Children of God grow up to be?
Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
Here you go.
Right. Mormon history isn't any more or less racist than anyone else's but the last two decades they have worked very hard to build a presence in black communities and I think (not sure) BYU started offering a lot of minority scholarships.
the bible has a lot of things that people don't understand, and most of the little things/commandments in the Law of Moses became unnecessary with the higher law that Christ established
plus the book of mormon is at least consistent with its doctrine, so you can't really get confused about what we consider to be right/wrong by what's in it
andalites
it just popped into my head and i was all 'holy bejesus how do i still know this"
From your link:
No just the legal. A law can't ban a religious ceremony taking place they can just take away it's ability to bestow a license.
All the best athletes are black!
blog facebook steam twitter
no
Granted, but the arguments christian groups use against subject, for example gay marriage, all come out of old testament writings.
Remember, that book wasn't good enough for christians. They wanted a new book, with a better main character.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
I could easily craft epic stories and positive anecdotes about it if I tried. Alot of it tied up in history, psychology, and astrology but like anything else it can be simplified for children to understand.
For example: "Since the beginning of time, when mass and energy were first borne into the universe, the stars and their light filled the cosmos with energy. We are born of the light of stars, and when we die we return unto them first as bones, and then ash, and then of the same energy that would give birth to new stars."
Basically the song "We are all made of stars" taken to a 'holy' level.
Come on now, Latinos and Asians are doing awesome in baseball.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
haha, yes
you are the best new poster
If gays want to get married, that's their own business. Passing laws so that they cannot based upon your own religion is wrong.
This means I don't think Prop 8 should have been passed. At all.
There's little justification in it being in the Bible or Book of Mormon, either. Everybody has the right to decide what they want to do, whether you agree or not.
Saying "because it's a sin" is not a reason. Denying the gospel is technically a sin, but you don't pass laws to make people follow it. And if you want to, pffffffff.
And when they come back ready to evangelize, oops i don't live there anymore.
Which brings us back to the point that recognizing a religious ceremony with a legal institution is a violation of the establishment clause in the first place, but oh well.
Then when you start saying "ok, this religious ceremony will be counted as a legal contract but not this other one" then you have First and Fourteenth violations.
Basically prop 8 is gonna be soooo fucked in the State's High Court.
edit: er, thanks, Fandy, I guess. I guess I'm still at <1 year.
git outtah mah thread, we dahn't cotton tah yer type round here
I should probably just let this sit, but...
The whole baptism for the dead thing is widely misunderstood. It is believed within the church that EVERYONE will be given a chance to accept the Gospel, whether they heard it in this life or the next. And since ordinances (like baptism, etc) are essential to "accepting" the Gospel everyone has to have performed those ordinances. So here's the tricky part: if you are deceased and accept the Gospel in the next life, how would you get baptized? Well, someone down here does it by proxy for you and you accept the work done for you while in the next life. The baptism done for the deceased doesn't FORCE them to be a member of the church, its just kind of like a service we perform for them should they choose to need it in the next life.
Yeah, so there is some kind of mormom belief that if you do everything right, when you die you get to become god of your own universe, only you still have within this new universe adhere to the laws of where you came from, that god itself being the spirit of somebody who died before you and fffffffffffffffff
man mormonism sounds kick ass
Mormon: Zombies
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It's my understanding that that is intepretation.
It says God sent us here to learn from our trials and tribulations to be more like Him. That doesn't mean when we turn 16 we get the keys to our own universe.
There are also some sparse things in the new testament, but yeah, I agree that it could look dumb plucking things from the OT.
as for the Book of Mormon (I keep spelling it "boom" for some reason), though, anyone who says "it isn't good enough" really hasn't read it with an open mind. A friend of mine said that while he was missionary'ing it up in France that some french guy was like "yeah I've heard of that book. My dad researched it, trying to prove that a single man wrote it. He couldn't."
Apparently the guy's dad was some prominent literature dude who could do such things. Said guy didn't convert, though.
Take the story with a grain of salt, but hey; reading the book for yourself couldn't hurt. It's pretty obvious that one man could not have created so coherent of a book in less than a year
Still damn offensive to not ask the relatives for permission.
Will it? It's not like marriage is a constitutionally recognized right.
Basically we talked about why Prop 8 shouldn't have been passed and was wrong and wondered why you're so up in arms towards me about it.
At least I wondered that, anyway. I'm right there with you on the banning gay marriage thing, man.
Puppies grow up to be Dogs. Kitties grow up to be Cats. Children of God grow up to be?
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
You're making your point unfalsifiable by saying "If it didn't work for them, they aren't doing it right"
Religious cherry picking. Nothing new.
Alec Baldwin?
I suppose I didn't quite mean it like that, but for me to say it another way would make it false