There is something that torture is very useful for: extracting false confessions. I'm not sure if the Bushies knew that or that was their goal (they could have just been stupidly and maliciously trying to get info), but it is effective for coercing someone to say something that you want them to.
Of course. It's pretty obvious that if someone is causing you extreme distress, the quickest way to make him stop is to tell him what you think he wants to hear.
The people crafting these memos apparently don't follow that logic. What I don't get is how they thought the techniques they authorized were going to produce any useful information, within any useful time frame. If you urgently need info you think someone is withholding from you...why are you authorizing an 11-day method of interrogation? It's almost as if they were just trying to be dicks and get back at some ay-rabs without drawing too much attention to themselves.
There is something that torture is very useful for: extracting false confessions. I'm not sure if the Bushies knew that or that was their goal (they could have just been stupidly and maliciously trying to get info), but it is effective for coercing someone to say something that you want them to.
Of course. It's pretty obvious that if someone is causing you extreme distress, the quickest way to make him stop is to tell him what you think he wants to hear.
The people crafting these memos apparently don't follow that logic. What I don't get is how they thought the techniques they authorized were going to produce any useful information, within any useful time frame. If you urgently need info you think someone is withholding from you...why are you authorizing an 11-day method of interrogation? It's almost as if they were just trying to be dicks and get back at some ay-rabs without drawing too much attention to themselves.
I propose we organize a protest. Fellow D&Ders, start lining up some corporate sponsorship.
We'll need a catchy protest name...something that will draw in reporters...something with overt sexual references...
Any ideas?
Waterboards
Are
Not
Good
Hrmmm, needs something else.
I can see the CNN crawl right now "Bush meets with WANG."
Oh and to add something meaningful, it's interesting to watch the backpedal on the US military operating domestically from 10-23-2001 to 10-06-2008. Maybe someone realized that they weren't actually going to win the election and these files weren't going to stay hidden forever.
Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
These memos make it almost impossible for the Justice Dept. to not bring someone up on charges. One or more of the lawyers and upper brass need the book thrown at them hard. They need to be made an example of so that no one in the world has any doubt about what we think about state sponsored torture.
The game is not over yet. I'm not sure what Obama's plan is exactly, but it looks like he may be positioning his pieces so he can start taking down some big fish by releasing these memos. There are a lot of glaring omissions in the list of people that he specified would be left alone in terms of prosecution. In particular he only said he wouldn't go after those CIA agents who operated in good faith following the guidelines of the OLC, but said nothing about the higher ups or the guys who made these memos.
You do realize that you're deluding yourself, right? Because if not, then... You are deluding yourself.
There is a better chance of a giant space anaconda appearing from the sun and encircling all of Mercury tomorrow than of the DoJ or anyone in the Obama Administration doing anything to anyone in the Bush DoJ ever.
The game is not over yet. I'm not sure what Obama's plan is exactly, but it looks like he may be positioning his pieces so he can start taking down some big fish by releasing these memos. There are a lot of glaring omissions in the list of people that he specified would be left alone in terms of prosecution. In particular he only said he wouldn't go after those CIA agents who operated in good faith following the guidelines of the OLC, but said nothing about the higher ups or the guys who made these memos.
You do realize that you're deluding yourself, right? Because if not, then... You are deluding yourself.
There is a better chance of a giant space anaconda appearing from the sun and encircling all of Mercury tomorrow than of the DoJ or anyone in the Obama Administration doing anything to anyone in the Bush DoJ ever.
This is one of those things where public pressure is helpful, I think. He (or Holder) should just appoint the damn special prosecutor and let the investigation run its course.
At the very least I think you can get Congress to make a move.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The game is not over yet. I'm not sure what Obama's plan is exactly, but it looks like he may be positioning his pieces so he can start taking down some big fish by releasing these memos. There are a lot of glaring omissions in the list of people that he specified would be left alone in terms of prosecution. In particular he only said he wouldn't go after those CIA agents who operated in good faith following the guidelines of the OLC, but said nothing about the higher ups or the guys who made these memos.
You do realize that you're deluding yourself, right? Because if not, then... You are deluding yourself.
There is a better chance of a giant space anaconda appearing from the sun and encircling all of Mercury tomorrow than of the DoJ or anyone in the Obama Administration doing anything to anyone in the Bush DoJ ever.
This is one of those things where public pressure is helpful, I think. He (or Holder) should just appoint the damn special prosecutor and let the investigation run its course.
At the very least I think you can get Congress to make a move.
The game is not over yet. I'm not sure what Obama's plan is exactly, but it looks like he may be positioning his pieces so he can start taking down some big fish by releasing these memos. There are a lot of glaring omissions in the list of people that he specified would be left alone in terms of prosecution. In particular he only said he wouldn't go after those CIA agents who operated in good faith following the guidelines of the OLC, but said nothing about the higher ups or the guys who made these memos.
You do realize that you're deluding yourself, right? Because if not, then... You are deluding yourself.
There is a better chance of a giant space anaconda appearing from the sun and encircling all of Mercury tomorrow than of the DoJ or anyone in the Obama Administration doing anything to anyone in the Bush DoJ ever.
Oh really? I'm not saying that it will necessarily happen, but your cynicism is clouding your judgment if you think it is impossible. I'm getting rather sick and tired of defeatists like you who give up before the day is done, and I've been seeing quite a few of them today. Stop trying to be self-fulfilling prophets.
Obama's playing the political game at the highest stakes, and if he has the public at his back, then he'll have the cover he needs to take these guys down. He has the chance to fail the public, and the public has the chance to fail him, but it is rather hasty to assume that either of those are going to be a foregone conclusion, especially given that our political climate isn't very "normal" right now.
Wait, some of you are actually suggesting prosecuting the lawyers over this?
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
The Attorney General gave a legal justification for a heinous illegal act that he basically said would be declared illegal if anyone ever found out about it. That, in a good world, should not stand uncontested. Unfortunately, we have to face political realities and such, so the chances of a prosecution actually coming is just about diddly squat.
Wait, some of you are actually suggesting prosecuting the lawyers over this?
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
It doesn't have to be them. But conspiracy to commit torture is part of the law against torture. And the legal reasoning in those memos is so gross that there could be a case to be made they were wrapped up in the conspiracy.
Though, you could just go after their masters who pushed them to produce this crap. I wouldn't mind that.
Wait, some of you are actually suggesting prosecuting the lawyers over this?
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
There is such a thing as malpractice outside of the medical profession. As a practicing professional in an industry, you're expected to practice due diligence, and you're sure as hell not supposed to try to violate the law.
Lawyers like Yoo and Bybee weren't just "giving legal opinions". They were trying to create justifications for violating the law. At the very least, they should no longer hold licenses to practice law. But they should be thrown in jail, because what they were doing was aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise, which the last time I checked, was a fucking crime.
Wait, some of you are actually suggesting prosecuting the lawyers over this?
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
We have hanged people for less than what they did. Technically we held Nazi Germany to a higher standard than we are holding ourselves right now, but time will tell if that remains to be the case.
Wait, some of you are actually suggesting prosecuting the lawyers over this?
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
We have hanged people for less than what they did. Technically we held Nazi Germany to a higher standard than we are holding ourselves right now, but time will tell if that remains to be the case.
Also held to a higher standard: Liberian officials like eight months ago. The Bush administration was actually prosecuting torture in one of the most hilarious things to happen in that administration.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Wait, some of you are actually suggesting prosecuting the lawyers over this?
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
We have hanged people for less than what they did. Technically we held Nazi Germany to a higher standard than we are holding ourselves right now, but time will tell if that remains to be the case.
Also held to a higher standard: Liberian officials like eight months ago. The Bush administration was actually prosecuting torture in one of the most hilarious things to happen in that administration.
Read the prosecutor's commentary for that cause. Its the most sadly hilarious thing ever; it outlines why torture is not acceptable. And its from the Bush DOJ.
U.S. District Judge Cecilia M. Altonaga imposed the sentence after describing Emmanuel's actions against people viewed as rebels or opponents of his father as "sadistic, cruel and atrocious."
"It is hard to conceive of any more serious offenses against the dignity and the lives of human beings," Altonaga said. "The international community condemns torture."
Emmanuel, a U.S. citizen also known as Charles "Chuckie" Taylor Jr., was convicted in October in the first use of a 1994 law permitting prosecution in the U.S. for torture committed in foreign countries. Prosecutors had asked for an even tougher 147-year sentence to send a strong worldwide message against torture, while the defense asked for 20 years.
"Our message to human rights violators, no matter where they are, remains the same: We will use the full reach of U.S. law ... to hold you accountable for your crimes," said Matthew Friedrich, acting chief of the U.S. Justice Department's criminal division, in a statement.
Phoenix-D on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
I doubt any current administration will ever seek to prosecute a past administration. I don't think the precedent the current administration would be setting would sit comfortably with them. I think that's why Bush is always smiling like a loon when ever you see him on camera these days.
I doubt any current administration will ever seek to prosecute a past administration. I don't think the precedent the current administration would be setting would sit comfortably with them. I think that's why Bush is always smiling like a loon when ever you see him on camera these days.
Yeah, I'm a cynic. Sue me.
Teapot Dome Scandal. Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior under Warren Harding was convicted of bribery and sentenced to a year in prison. He was the first Presidential cabinet member to go to prison for actions he took in office.
It has happened before, though bribery is smaller potatoes than torture is.
I doubt any current administration will ever seek to prosecute a past administration. I don't think the precedent the current administration would be setting would sit comfortably with them. I think that's why Bush is always smiling like a loon when ever you see him on camera these days.
Yeah, I'm a cynic. Sue me.
Teapot Dome Scandal. Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior under Warren Harding was convicted of bribery and sentenced to a year in prison. He was the first Presidential cabinet member to go to prison for actions he took in office.
It has happened before, though bribery is smaller potatoes than torture is.
That was then, this is now.
Obama's not going to pursue prosecutions for anybody. It wouldn't be politically expedient. The Republicans' screaming would get in the way of him passing other ineffectual legislation over which the Republicans will scream in equal volume.
But hey he actually released the memos so I've got to commend him for that at least, now I'm gonna go sit in a closet and mourn the dignity of man.
I doubt any current administration will ever seek to prosecute a past administration. I don't think the precedent the current administration would be setting would sit comfortably with them. I think that's why Bush is always smiling like a loon when ever you see him on camera these days.
Yeah, I'm a cynic. Sue me.
Teapot Dome Scandal. Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior under Warren Harding was convicted of bribery and sentenced to a year in prison. He was the first Presidential cabinet member to go to prison for actions he took in office.
It has happened before, though bribery is smaller potatoes than torture is.
Considering that the initiative for torture came from the office of the President, this is slightly different. I'm talking about the prosecution of virtually everyone in Bush's administration.
Over the past week I have been asked to explain how this could have happened; who authorized the torture in our name? The Red Cross report lacks the earmarks of rogues or “rotten apples†at the bottom of some barrel.
This is what I have been telling those who ask:
Rather than Harry Truman’s famous motto on his Oval Office desk, “The Buck Stops Here,†this was a case of “The Buck Starts Here.†President George W. Bush set the tone and created the framework, with strong support from Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I just don't think we live in a world where a member of the President's Club is going to go after another member. Much less a large part of his administration, which is what we are talking about. There is no sacrificial lamb that they could throw out and say, "hey, it's all this guy's doing."
Personally I think the fact that we know what they did, and have the capability to not prosecute them at all is a pretty large failing. The mere fact that we are choosing to ignore torture, hell that we have the ability to choose to ignore it instead of having to investigate the claims and prosecute those responsible bothers me.
Personally I think the fact that we know what they did, and have the capability to not prosecute them at all is a pretty large failing. The mere fact that we are choosing to ignore torture, hell that we have the ability to choose to ignore it instead of having to investigate the claims and prosecute those responsible bothers me.
This is what Impeachment is for. Do you think that's going to happen?
Personally I think the fact that we know what they did, and have the capability to not prosecute them at all is a pretty large failing. The mere fact that we are choosing to ignore torture, hell that we have the ability to choose to ignore it instead of having to investigate the claims and prosecute those responsible bothers me.
This is what Impeachment is for. Do you think that's going to happen?
Um, retroactively? No.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Do I think ANYTHING is going to happen besides possible some expendable flunkies being wrist slapped and hid away for 6 months before being promoted for taking one for the team? No.
Does the fact our current "administration" does not want to spend the "political capital" to "investigate" the "alleged" torture of prisoners under orders is complete and utter bullshit? Yes, yes i do. Lets just sweep it under the rug and hope everyone forgets because noone wants to admit that we both use, and condone torture despite the fact we are not supposed to.
Our government has long since been set up so that it can operate largely separate from the will of the people. Unless this sets the media on fire, which it apparently won't given that they're already burying it with reality-TV celebrity stories, this is going to be a weak coda to a really shitty part of this country's legacy.
Our government has long since been set up so that it can operate largely separate from the will of the people. Unless this sets the media on fire, which it apparently won't given that they're already burying it with reality-TV celebrity stories, this is going to be a weak coda to a really shitty part of this country's legacy.
Cynical populists are an interesting mix.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I am sure Reid and Ensign will get right on that. Especially since this is not a "partisan" problem. If they could dump it all on "red team" we might have a shot. Sadly blue team knows they are just as culpable, and does not want to risk the "backlash".
Our government has long since been set up so that it can operate largely separate from the will of the people. Unless this sets the media on fire, which it apparently won't given that they're already burying it with reality-TV celebrity stories, this is going to be a weak coda to a really shitty part of this country's legacy.
Cynical populists are an interesting mix.
The trick is to hate absolutely everybody, all the time.
Posts
We'll need a catchy protest name...something that will draw in reporters...something with overt sexual references...
Any ideas?
Waterboards
Are
Not
Good
Hrmmm, needs something else.
Of course. It's pretty obvious that if someone is causing you extreme distress, the quickest way to make him stop is to tell him what you think he wants to hear.
The people crafting these memos apparently don't follow that logic. What I don't get is how they thought the techniques they authorized were going to produce any useful information, within any useful time frame. If you urgently need info you think someone is withholding from you...why are you authorizing an 11-day method of interrogation? It's almost as if they were just trying to be dicks and get back at some ay-rabs without drawing too much attention to themselves.
Childish. Criminal. Immoral. Pointless.
Bush.
Ding.
I can see the CNN crawl right now "Bush meets with WANG."
Oh and to add something meaningful, it's interesting to watch the backpedal on the US military operating domestically from 10-23-2001 to 10-06-2008. Maybe someone realized that they weren't actually going to win the election and these files weren't going to stay hidden forever.
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
You do realize that you're deluding yourself, right? Because if not, then... You are deluding yourself.
There is a better chance of a giant space anaconda appearing from the sun and encircling all of Mercury tomorrow than of the DoJ or anyone in the Obama Administration doing anything to anyone in the Bush DoJ ever.
This is one of those things where public pressure is helpful, I think. He (or Holder) should just appoint the damn special prosecutor and let the investigation run its course.
At the very least I think you can get Congress to make a move.
I think you overestimate reid's giant vagina.
Or would that be underestimate?
Go USA.
There. Confusion averted.
Oh really? I'm not saying that it will necessarily happen, but your cynicism is clouding your judgment if you think it is impossible. I'm getting rather sick and tired of defeatists like you who give up before the day is done, and I've been seeing quite a few of them today. Stop trying to be self-fulfilling prophets.
Obama's playing the political game at the highest stakes, and if he has the public at his back, then he'll have the cover he needs to take these guys down. He has the chance to fail the public, and the public has the chance to fail him, but it is rather hasty to assume that either of those are going to be a foregone conclusion, especially given that our political climate isn't very "normal" right now.
What the hell for? Giving legal opinions?
Talk about taking it out on the wrong people.
It doesn't have to be them. But conspiracy to commit torture is part of the law against torture. And the legal reasoning in those memos is so gross that there could be a case to be made they were wrapped up in the conspiracy.
Though, you could just go after their masters who pushed them to produce this crap. I wouldn't mind that.
There is such a thing as malpractice outside of the medical profession. As a practicing professional in an industry, you're expected to practice due diligence, and you're sure as hell not supposed to try to violate the law.
Lawyers like Yoo and Bybee weren't just "giving legal opinions". They were trying to create justifications for violating the law. At the very least, they should no longer hold licenses to practice law. But they should be thrown in jail, because what they were doing was aiding and abetting a criminal enterprise, which the last time I checked, was a fucking crime.
We have hanged people for less than what they did. Technically we held Nazi Germany to a higher standard than we are holding ourselves right now, but time will tell if that remains to be the case.
Yeah, experience tells me that nothing will ever happen. That's why I'm cynical.
Also held to a higher standard: Liberian officials like eight months ago. The Bush administration was actually prosecuting torture in one of the most hilarious things to happen in that administration.
Read the prosecutor's commentary for that cause. Its the most sadly hilarious thing ever; it outlines why torture is not acceptable. And its from the Bush DOJ.
EDIT: Ok, it was the judge. But still:
Yeah, I'm a cynic. Sue me.
Teapot Dome Scandal. Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior under Warren Harding was convicted of bribery and sentenced to a year in prison. He was the first Presidential cabinet member to go to prison for actions he took in office.
It has happened before, though bribery is smaller potatoes than torture is.
That was then, this is now.
Obama's not going to pursue prosecutions for anybody. It wouldn't be politically expedient. The Republicans' screaming would get in the way of him passing other ineffectual legislation over which the Republicans will scream in equal volume.
But hey he actually released the memos so I've got to commend him for that at least, now I'm gonna go sit in a closet and mourn the dignity of man.
Considering that the initiative for torture came from the office of the President, this is slightly different. I'm talking about the prosecution of virtually everyone in Bush's administration.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I just don't think we live in a world where a member of the President's Club is going to go after another member. Much less a large part of his administration, which is what we are talking about. There is no sacrificial lamb that they could throw out and say, "hey, it's all this guy's doing."
You can read the rest of Ray McGovern's article here.
Greenwald needs to think these things, or else he would eat his fingers and eyes. And we need his fingers and eyes.
This is what Impeachment is for. Do you think that's going to happen?
Um, retroactively? No.
Does the fact our current "administration" does not want to spend the "political capital" to "investigate" the "alleged" torture of prisoners under orders is complete and utter bullshit? Yes, yes i do. Lets just sweep it under the rug and hope everyone forgets because noone wants to admit that we both use, and condone torture despite the fact we are not supposed to.
Cynical populists are an interesting mix.
The trick is to hate absolutely everybody, all the time.