The downside is that there can be more boredom. If you need a group to do something, the chokepoints are usually available tanks and healers so dps may spend time waiting around for some to be available.
Yeah, I'm seeing this in WoW right now. I'd like to play any number of classes, but I inevitably end up getting sick of waiting half an hour for a dungeon, and switch back to my tank where I can at least get instant queues.
Which leaves me wondering whether I want to play a Sith Juggernaut or Marauder. Dual sabers sounds badass, but frankly I'd rather be constantly in demand for groups.
The class info isn't sorted very well in the OP. Are there prestige classes for non-jedi? Like I know Jedi Wizard is a caster class , but lets say I want to get my Smuggler on. What can I prestige into with a Smuggler?
I tried to make it a bit more clear. The Advanced Classes are beneath the picture of what the class looks like.
I've been following SWTOR since the official news started, and I must say that there are some thing initially alluded to that turned out pretty, well disappointing. It feels like a lot of what was promised wasn't delivered - from a combat system different from the Tirnity, to Space Flight.
BW Austin needs some serious work on public expectations.
We can still break from the Trinity. Remove any single class dominance on aggro - then healing won't be slotted into the role of "keeping the tank alive". Otherwise, I really don't see how SWTOR's system is going to be any different from WoW.
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Burden of ProofYou three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
They never promised any of those things.
Personally, I didn't set myself up for disappointment by building up my expectations.
The only legitimate complaint about the design of using tanks and healers for group content I've ever heard is that it sucks when you are waiting around for a tank or healer. Bioware already has a solution for that problem in the fact that each party member has their own companion which can be kitted to operate as a tank or healer. It's a great solution. The fact they're AI will mean they're not going to operate as well as a human player would, but if it allows you to do group quests or whatever without having to stand around then problem solved.
Anybody who wanted the combat of the game to be some action game dodge attacks nonsense was always setting themselves up for a disappointment. MMORPG progression is about developing your character. I want to do better in a fight because I have more talent points spent on being a badass jedi, etc., not because I have the lowest latency and can dodge well.
Seriously, if the combat was some real time dodge fest like God of War like some people act like they want, gear, talent points, and all that would be completely meaningless. The only thing that would matter is your latency and ability to hit the dodge button at the right time. That's not what MMOs are for. There are plenty of games that feature that type of combat, but this is not one of them.
I've been following SWTOR since the official news started, and I must say that there are some thing initially alluded to that turned out pretty, well disappointing. It feels like a lot of what was promised wasn't delivered - from a combat system different from the Tirnity, to Space Flight.
BW Austin needs some serious work on public expectations.
We can still break from the Trinity. Remove any single class dominance on aggro - then healing won't be slotted into the role of "keeping the tank alive". Otherwise, I really don't see how SWTOR's system is going to be any different from WoW.
I'm with burden on proof on this one. They just said we'd get space flight. When did they promise it'd be any different from how it looks? The same goes for the combat system. When did they promise they wouldn't have a trinity system?
I'd have to agree with charles there... I've been following this game since it was purely speculation... back when the only thing we knew was that Bioware was working with Lucasarts on a new MMO. I don't remember them saying anything that they'd definately deliver, other than an Old Republic themed mmo.
They did talk about getting away from the Holy Trinity of Classes early on. I kept wondering "...how?" It seems their answer is the companion system that Josh talked about. While the Trinity still exists, Bioware has worked out a system that attempts to get around the limitations of it. While it's not the same as doing something totally new perhaps they realized that getting away from it completely is impossible.
Yeah, unless someone has some really good ideas the only way you can really get away from the 'Holy Trinity of Classes' is to let everyone do everything. (In which case, why have classes)
The holy trinity is kind of a product of MMO raid design. It depends on how encounters were designed in the past and will be designed in the future.
Look at vanilla WoW. 40 man raids vs one boss and maybe some adds. This means that the boss has to have inflated health in order to make the encounter meaningful. If the boss had health near equal to the players, the fight would be meaningless. But because of the large number of people as well as latency, complexity and logistics of constantly trying to fight the boss without a tank, "I take it then you take it while I heal myself" is fairly silly to have on every encounter. Especially since that requires many players to have knowledge of their class, a decent connection and latency, voice chat, and some kind of UI assist. Those kind of encounters are more rare.
The biggest problem with raid encounters I've always had is scale. I dislike doing 25 mans and straight hated 40 mans. I think that WoW going the 10 man route and whatever low number that ToR is going for is the future of MMO's and will help evolve encounter design. Less players means better coordination and fights can be more complex. That will hopefully get us less dependent on the holy trinity design.
But as long as we have to assume that the lowest common player has to understand the mechanics of fights in order for the game to be successful, we are going to keep seeing the tried and true healer, dps, tank.
But I personally don't have a problem with it.
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Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I think the real issue is that when you force the holy trinity, it's not just people sitting around waiting for a group, its that a purely dedicated healer is about worthless outside of a group setting. That is something I hope they stray away from with TOR. I remember vanilla wow, being a healing specced druid. (you could also include tank specced warriors). Our damage output was misserable. We couldn't farm effeciently, definately no outdoor pvp without an escort, hell pvp at all without an escort was a nightmare. I guess what I'm getting at is that I, and I'm pretty sure some others, want to be self sufficient and not require people to help us with what should be solo activities, and still be useful and have a purpose in a group setting. And I think that goes for all classes.
I think the real issue is that when you force the holy trinity, it's not just people sitting around waiting for a group, its that a purely dedicated healer is about worthless outside of a group setting. That is something I hope they stray away from with TOR. I remember vanilla wow, being a healing specced druid. (you could also include tank specced warriors). Our damage output was misserable. We couldn't farm effeciently, definately no outdoor pvp without an escort, hell pvp at all without an escort was a nightmare. I guess what I'm getting at is that I, and I'm pretty sure some others, want to be self sufficient and not require people to help us with what should be solo activities, and still be useful and have a purpose in a group setting. And I think that goes for all classes.
Their intent with TOR is not to have tanks and healers like WoW where your single target damage output is heinous(though for tanks this was pretty much fixed during WotLK), but rather you'll be able to solo fine. Plus, you'll get to take a DPS companion, whereas a DPS character may need to take a healer companion to keep the pace they want.
If you look at the advanced classes, none of them are dedicated healers. The ones that do heal all provide some sort of DPS/Heal balance. As Bannon said, scale is an issue here. BioWare also stated previously they don't want a raid of 25 alliance players fighting one big bad enemy. They'd rather keep things to small groups and that works just fine for TOR. The elements of the Trinity actually might be less important because of this.
Remember groups are limited to four real people and then their four companions. None of the Companions will be as good as a person, but if you all get out your healer companion you don't need a dedicated healer. A lot of the game is going to be about you and small cadre of companions, both players and NPCs, riping through hordes of enemies.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Until you hit the max level at which point it'll be all about the raids.
And I think there does need to be raiding... It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but its for a lot of people. WoW is proof of that. Now, I haven't played wow since the end of BC, but I have friends that still play so I get to hear all about it. I like what I'm hearing, with them moving to the more casual aproach, having multiple ways to go about character and gear progression. So its not just the raiders and the havenots. And the fact that a lot of the dungeons can be 10 or 25 manned and pugged at that with the LFG tool. I really hope bioware/lucasarts learn from that and impliment some of the things that how has latey.
There will be no reason for people who don't like to raid or pvp to bitch about what they're supposed to do at the end game of TOR. They've already told those people what to do, which is play an alt, because for the first time you're going to be experiencing different storylines as all 8 different classes, instead of an alt just meaning doing the exact same quests again.
If you don't want to raid, pvp, or go through other classes stories after you get a character to max level, then just unsubscribe, fuck off, and go play something else because you're obviously not interested in any of the options given to you once you get one character to the 'end game.'
If raid content is 12 people beating down a Rancor or AT-AT analogue, TOR raiding will be crap.
However, imagine if raids were more like group 1 goes rescue the princess from the detention center, group 2 goes off to de-activate the tractor beam, and group 3 needs to hold onto the command center in order to remotely remove obstacles from the other groups. Once all the groups meet their objectives, they make their way into the hanger to escape. I think that would be a nice change up to the raid formula which also happens to be more representative of the source material.
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Law and Order ≠ Justice
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If raid content is 12 people beating down a Rancor or AT-AT analogue, TOR raiding will be crap.
However, imagine if raids were more like group 1 goes rescue the princess from the detention center, group 2 goes off to de-activate the tractor beam, and group 3 needs to hold onto the command center in order to remotely remove obstacles from the other groups. Once all the groups meet their objectives, they make their way into the hanger to escape. I think that would be a nice change up to the raid formula which also happens to be more representative of the source material.
If raid content is 12 people beating down a Rancor or AT-AT analogue, TOR raiding will be crap.
However, imagine if raids were more like group 1 goes rescue the princess from the detention center, group 2 goes off to de-activate the tractor beam, and group 3 needs to hold onto the command center in order to remotely remove obstacles from the other groups. Once all the groups meet their objectives, they make their way into the hanger to escape. I think that would be a nice change up to the raid formula which also happens to be more representative of the source material.
This kind of idea is what I'm hoping for in terms of TOR raid content, but at the same time, it is also something that would definitely be harder to pull off well than standard raid mechanics. You either have to make it very easy at which point people wonder why they're raiding, or it's hard enough that any one of those 3 groups can 'lose' the encounter for everybody. I'm sure there is a cool way to get around these problems, but there are definitely obstacles.
I remember in BC when the Shattered Sun daily island came out, it would take ~20-30 minutes to do the 10 dailies on the island on each of my 70s, minus one.
A holy priest. It'd take well over an hour to smite my way through the dailies. Since this was before dual spec (and spell damage was still broken up between healing and damage so my gear would be terrible for a spriest), I didn't want to respec every day to just do dailies then back to holy for raiding, so I ground out faction from neutral to exalted as a holy priest by just doing dailies.
I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking "What the fuck was I thinking?" when i think how terrible solo healer play was.
I would absolutely hate if TOR really runs with the Trinity style. You would think they could come up with something better than locking in a 12 year old MMO standard.
I remember in BC when the Shattered Sun daily island came out, it would take ~20-30 minutes to do the 10 dailies on the island on each of my 70s, minus one.
A holy priest. It'd take well over an hour to smite my way through the dailies. Since this was before dual spec (and spell damage was still broken up between healing and damage so my gear would be terrible for a spriest), I didn't want to respec every day to just do dailies then back to holy for raiding, so I ground out faction from neutral to exalted as a holy priest by just doing dailies.
I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking "What the fuck was I thinking?" when i think how terrible solo healer play was.
I would absolutely hate if TOR really runs with the Trinity style. You would think they could come up with something better than locking in a 12 year old MMO standard.
If you run a healer spec bust out your DPS companion and go to town. Companions are going to be integral to this game and are designed to cover your weaknesses. Plus you get a variety, between 3-10, to choose from based on class so I don't think this will be nearly as bad as your Holy Priest.
Also, reading between the lines, it sounds like most if not all the advanced classes are going to be pretty hybridized anyways. Though, oddly enough, I don't think any of them combine Tanking and healing.
Also, reading between the lines, it sounds like most if not all the advanced classes are going to be pretty hybridized anyways. Though, oddly enough, I don't think any of them combine Tanking and healing.
They've learned that paladins are the worst kind of people. The worst!
However, imagine if raids were more like group 1 goes rescue the princess from the detention center, group 2 goes off to de-activate the tractor beam, and group 3 needs to hold onto the command center in order to remotely remove obstacles from the other groups. Once all the groups meet their objectives, they make their way into the hanger to escape. I think that would be a nice change up to the raid formula which also happens to be more representative of the source material.
That sounds boss. Running an ops mission of some kind in conjunction with other groups would be super cool.
Regarding Paladins, I was leveling a Paladin alt, and I ended up getting in a RDG with 4 other Paladins. It was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.
Should just remove healing as a combat action, does wonders for balance in other games. Than again, those games also revolved around dodge rolls and fucking up the enemies to-hit modifiers.
I don't know, does "big raid boss" even work conceptually in the star wars universe? Aren't all the big bads usually just generals, sith lords, etc? Not to mention there's no real greater threat like the burning legion or the lich king that's an enemy to both factions, so shouldn't each side have its own content entirely?
You and nine friends will travel deep under Chewjarooba the Hutt's palace and combat his pet rancor in order to recover the sacred Jedi Holocron. :winky:
I remember in BC when the Shattered Sun daily island came out, it would take ~20-30 minutes to do the 10 dailies on the island on each of my 70s, minus one.
A holy priest. It'd take well over an hour to smite my way through the dailies. Since this was before dual spec (and spell damage was still broken up between healing and damage so my gear would be terrible for a spriest), I didn't want to respec every day to just do dailies then back to holy for raiding, so I ground out faction from neutral to exalted as a holy priest by just doing dailies.
I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking "What the fuck was I thinking?" when i think how terrible solo healer play was.
I would absolutely hate if TOR really runs with the Trinity style. You would think they could come up with something better than locking in a 12 year old MMO standard.
I don't understand why you'd assume that they'd take the worst parts of specialized roles in MMO's (like being completely ineffective on your own), and neglect any improvements that have been made, like the addition of dual specs or something similar.
Personally, I didn't set myself up for disappointment by building up my expectations.
They never promised not to follow the Trinity system, but yet remained coy about it right until the end... to reveal - yup - a Trinity system. Just comes across as setting people up to be disappointed. I'm pretty sure one of the devs commented that it isn't necessary to bring a healing class to the party - how does that work if they're going to have a healing class in the game - would it even make sense to roll a healer? Like I said it's more to do with managing expectations.
And space combat was promised. The rail-shooter was delivered as that promise, despite the fact that in the context of discussions in the community forums, space combat was often thought off as free-form flying. I wouldn't call a rail-shooter "space combat". It's like saying "we have space combat!" only to reveal what you mean is "your characters can fight... in the imperial cruiser instance... which is in space." Again - it's how they manage expectations.
o_O Being a long-time follower of BW games I'm actually quite surprised at how badly these were handled. My experience with BW has always been one where the devs were upfront about things. If something isn't in the game, they'll tell it straight.
Anyhow I'll just wait and see how the game goes as it steps closer to release. I'm just disappointed in how the devs seem to be out of touch with their forums... usually a bad sign.
If raid content is 12 people beating down a Rancor or AT-AT analogue, TOR raiding will be crap.
However, imagine if raids were more like group 1 goes rescue the princess from the detention center, group 2 goes off to de-activate the tractor beam, and group 3 needs to hold onto the command center in order to remotely remove obstacles from the other groups. Once all the groups meet their objectives, they make their way into the hanger to escape. I think that would be a nice change up to the raid formula which also happens to be more representative of the source material.
That sounds like a ton of fun.
I would rather do a raid like that then do the same old choke em with our dead style
I remember in BC when the Shattered Sun daily island came out, it would take ~20-30 minutes to do the 10 dailies on the island on each of my 70s, minus one.
A holy priest. It'd take well over an hour to smite my way through the dailies. Since this was before dual spec (and spell damage was still broken up between healing and damage so my gear would be terrible for a spriest), I didn't want to respec every day to just do dailies then back to holy for raiding, so I ground out faction from neutral to exalted as a holy priest by just doing dailies.
I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking "What the fuck was I thinking?" when i think how terrible solo healer play was.
I would absolutely hate if TOR really runs with the Trinity style. You would think they could come up with something better than locking in a 12 year old MMO standard.
I also grinded rep in TBC as holy... not fun.
Frankly, the Trinity has moved on. SWTOR can't just have the Trinity anymore. WoW has already introduced dual-speccing and respecs.
The trinity is not going anywhere, because as long as group content in MMOs doesn't change drastically, there is a tactical element, in the tank directing most of the damage on to himself, and the healers keeping people alive. I still haven't seen anybody give a good example of what MMO group content should be like with no tanks and healers. People just don't like having to wait on tanks and healers to form groups, which has already been addressed by the TOR devs with companions. Now, whether companions are good enough to do the job properly with just their AI will remain to be seen.
As for space combat, they specifically said it wouldn't be in at launch, then changed their tune, but anybody who doesn't think the videos they have shown depict "Space combat" is just mad because it's not what they wanted from it. It's clearly space combat, and I'd much rather have something like they showed where they can design cool environments and encounters instead of just a bunch of empty open space I can fly around in and pretend like I'm a fucking space pioneer.
The only real WoW-style raids you could do in Star Wars is something like a group of fighters against a capital ship. That would make sense.
But like, 15 people hacking lightsabers away at a Rancor for 10 minutes would just look silly.
Which is probably why BioWare has hinted that a lot of the end-game content is going to be "battle content", where you and your group are just fighting masses of enemies, like a battle.
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Yeah, I'm seeing this in WoW right now. I'd like to play any number of classes, but I inevitably end up getting sick of waiting half an hour for a dungeon, and switch back to my tank where I can at least get instant queues.
Which leaves me wondering whether I want to play a Sith Juggernaut or Marauder. Dual sabers sounds badass, but frankly I'd rather be constantly in demand for groups.
I tried to make it a bit more clear. The Advanced Classes are beneath the picture of what the class looks like.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
BW Austin needs some serious work on public expectations.
We can still break from the Trinity. Remove any single class dominance on aggro - then healing won't be slotted into the role of "keeping the tank alive". Otherwise, I really don't see how SWTOR's system is going to be any different from WoW.
Personally, I didn't set myself up for disappointment by building up my expectations.
I know I'm not the only person who's disappointed we're not getting Tie Fighter. Instead, BioWare is going back to the roots of the license:
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Anybody who wanted the combat of the game to be some action game dodge attacks nonsense was always setting themselves up for a disappointment. MMORPG progression is about developing your character. I want to do better in a fight because I have more talent points spent on being a badass jedi, etc., not because I have the lowest latency and can dodge well.
Seriously, if the combat was some real time dodge fest like God of War like some people act like they want, gear, talent points, and all that would be completely meaningless. The only thing that would matter is your latency and ability to hit the dodge button at the right time. That's not what MMOs are for. There are plenty of games that feature that type of combat, but this is not one of them.
I'm with burden on proof on this one. They just said we'd get space flight. When did they promise it'd be any different from how it looks? The same goes for the combat system. When did they promise they wouldn't have a trinity system?
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
I am a freaking nerd.
Look at vanilla WoW. 40 man raids vs one boss and maybe some adds. This means that the boss has to have inflated health in order to make the encounter meaningful. If the boss had health near equal to the players, the fight would be meaningless. But because of the large number of people as well as latency, complexity and logistics of constantly trying to fight the boss without a tank, "I take it then you take it while I heal myself" is fairly silly to have on every encounter. Especially since that requires many players to have knowledge of their class, a decent connection and latency, voice chat, and some kind of UI assist. Those kind of encounters are more rare.
The biggest problem with raid encounters I've always had is scale. I dislike doing 25 mans and straight hated 40 mans. I think that WoW going the 10 man route and whatever low number that ToR is going for is the future of MMO's and will help evolve encounter design. Less players means better coordination and fights can be more complex. That will hopefully get us less dependent on the holy trinity design.
But as long as we have to assume that the lowest common player has to understand the mechanics of fights in order for the game to be successful, we are going to keep seeing the tried and true healer, dps, tank.
But I personally don't have a problem with it.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
None of this was promised. In fact space was promised not to be in the game at all when it launched.
Their intent with TOR is not to have tanks and healers like WoW where your single target damage output is heinous(though for tanks this was pretty much fixed during WotLK), but rather you'll be able to solo fine. Plus, you'll get to take a DPS companion, whereas a DPS character may need to take a healer companion to keep the pace they want.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
If you don't want to raid, pvp, or go through other classes stories after you get a character to max level, then just unsubscribe, fuck off, and go play something else because you're obviously not interested in any of the options given to you once you get one character to the 'end game.'
However, imagine if raids were more like group 1 goes rescue the princess from the detention center, group 2 goes off to de-activate the tractor beam, and group 3 needs to hold onto the command center in order to remotely remove obstacles from the other groups. Once all the groups meet their objectives, they make their way into the hanger to escape. I think that would be a nice change up to the raid formula which also happens to be more representative of the source material.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
That sounds like a ton of fun.
This kind of idea is what I'm hoping for in terms of TOR raid content, but at the same time, it is also something that would definitely be harder to pull off well than standard raid mechanics. You either have to make it very easy at which point people wonder why they're raiding, or it's hard enough that any one of those 3 groups can 'lose' the encounter for everybody. I'm sure there is a cool way to get around these problems, but there are definitely obstacles.
A holy priest. It'd take well over an hour to smite my way through the dailies. Since this was before dual spec (and spell damage was still broken up between healing and damage so my gear would be terrible for a spriest), I didn't want to respec every day to just do dailies then back to holy for raiding, so I ground out faction from neutral to exalted as a holy priest by just doing dailies.
I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking "What the fuck was I thinking?" when i think how terrible solo healer play was.
I would absolutely hate if TOR really runs with the Trinity style. You would think they could come up with something better than locking in a 12 year old MMO standard.
If you run a healer spec bust out your DPS companion and go to town. Companions are going to be integral to this game and are designed to cover your weaknesses. Plus you get a variety, between 3-10, to choose from based on class so I don't think this will be nearly as bad as your Holy Priest.
Also, reading between the lines, it sounds like most if not all the advanced classes are going to be pretty hybridized anyways. Though, oddly enough, I don't think any of them combine Tanking and healing.
They've learned that paladins are the worst kind of people. The worst!
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That sounds boss. Running an ops mission of some kind in conjunction with other groups would be super cool.
Regarding Paladins, I was leveling a Paladin alt, and I ended up getting in a RDG with 4 other Paladins. It was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.
We ran through the dungeon crazy fast though.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
I don't understand why you'd assume that they'd take the worst parts of specialized roles in MMO's (like being completely ineffective on your own), and neglect any improvements that have been made, like the addition of dual specs or something similar.
They never promised not to follow the Trinity system, but yet remained coy about it right until the end... to reveal - yup - a Trinity system. Just comes across as setting people up to be disappointed. I'm pretty sure one of the devs commented that it isn't necessary to bring a healing class to the party - how does that work if they're going to have a healing class in the game - would it even make sense to roll a healer? Like I said it's more to do with managing expectations.
And space combat was promised. The rail-shooter was delivered as that promise, despite the fact that in the context of discussions in the community forums, space combat was often thought off as free-form flying. I wouldn't call a rail-shooter "space combat". It's like saying "we have space combat!" only to reveal what you mean is "your characters can fight... in the imperial cruiser instance... which is in space." Again - it's how they manage expectations.
o_O Being a long-time follower of BW games I'm actually quite surprised at how badly these were handled. My experience with BW has always been one where the devs were upfront about things. If something isn't in the game, they'll tell it straight.
Anyhow I'll just wait and see how the game goes as it steps closer to release. I'm just disappointed in how the devs seem to be out of touch with their forums... usually a bad sign.
I would rather do a raid like that then do the same old choke em with our dead style
I also grinded rep in TBC as holy... not fun.
Frankly, the Trinity has moved on. SWTOR can't just have the Trinity anymore. WoW has already introduced dual-speccing and respecs.
As for space combat, they specifically said it wouldn't be in at launch, then changed their tune, but anybody who doesn't think the videos they have shown depict "Space combat" is just mad because it's not what they wanted from it. It's clearly space combat, and I'd much rather have something like they showed where they can design cool environments and encounters instead of just a bunch of empty open space I can fly around in and pretend like I'm a fucking space pioneer.
Maybe if it's limed it will go through!
But like, 15 people hacking lightsabers away at a Rancor for 10 minutes would just look silly.
Which is probably why BioWare has hinted that a lot of the end-game content is going to be "battle content", where you and your group are just fighting masses of enemies, like a battle.