It's entirely possible to separate Lovecraft's work and his horrifically racist personal beliefs. He's functionally a fictional character now anyway. They're still enormously creative and unsettling works of fiction. You only start noticing how his bigotry may have influenced his work in a couple stories and only then if you know about that beforehand.
To many its just 'spooky monsters!'
I think you can do that with some of his monsters. But I don't think you can do it with his stories tbh. And I think it's a bad call to do that with him as a person as well. Like his racism and fear of the other are central points to a good lot of his stories. Even Cthulhu and Innsmouth are on quite a few levels.
Like, I enjoy a lot of his work from a sort of skewed view. Especially his dreadfully nihilistic views of the cosmos, and the idea of higher powers wouldn't even be all that aware of us. But I think completely ironing it out and ignoring his really troubling aspects is a bit of a disservice.
I also think that turning him (or any actual historical figure) into a sort of cartoon version of himself is always a bad idea. Like analogues are one thing, but using the actual historical figure ends up close to hagiography and what have you in ways that I find deeply troubling.
Yeah like uh
Which stories are you talking about that can be separated from his horrific racism?
Because while there are definitely a few I can think of that don't have anything overtly bad, it's not any of the big ones
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I think that it has happened is troubling.
I think it's a bad call across the board. Like you are witnessing something similar with figures like Stan Lee too. Where we remove them from being people and instead these sort of exaggerated forms of themselves. It makes it harder to not only engage with their actual points as historical figures, but also with their work as well.
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DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
yeah, selfishly, I refuse to deal with old-timey author racism so that I can continue to enjoy their work
like, oh, I can't read Conan or Lovecraft or Sherlock Holmes or
yeah, selfishly, I refuse to deal with old-timey author racism so that I can continue to enjoy their work
like, oh, I can't read Conan or Lovecraft or Sherlock Holmes or
You don't need to discount an entire author's works because of their racism
I don't think anyone here is saying that
It's just something you gotta be aware of when you read his works, and that's just fine
Yeah like. I own all of Lovecraft's work. Even some of the post-humous stuff that was mostly just August Derleth. One of my best friends just got me a Lovecraft inspired collection of weird fiction on my last birthday.
I'm absolutely not saying people can't read the guy or even like his work. I just think audience awareness and engagement of an author as a real person is never a bad thing.
Gustav on
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DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
well the thing is
if a contemporary author or musician or whatever turns out to be racist or otherwise shitty
I generally drop them
I think it's just because I read those like, old pulp stories when I was a kid and so I've got nostalgia about it
yeah, selfishly, I refuse to deal with old-timey author racism so that I can continue to enjoy their work
like, oh, I can't read Conan or Lovecraft or Sherlock Holmes or
You don't need to discount an entire author's works because of their racism
I don't think anyone here is saying that
It's just something you gotta be aware of when you read his works, and that's just fine
Yeah like. I own all of Lovecraft's work. Even some of the post-humous stuff that was mostly just August Derleth. One of my best friends just got me a Lovecraft inspired collection of weird fiction on my last birthday.
I'm absolutely not saying people can't read the guy or even like his work. I just think audience awareness and engagement of an author as a real person is never a bad thing.
Yeah, I'm in the exact same place
I have a separate shelf dedicated to my Lovecraft inspired board games
I have an art book of Lovecraft inspired stuff as big as most coffee tables
He was a super formative author for me in my love of horror, and I respect the hell out of some of his writing, even if I've softened on some of it since then
But manalive is he a problematic fave
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
H. P. Lovecraft’s cosmic pessimism is only terrifying if you’re a straight white man and you thought you were the center of the universe anyway. To anyone else – and this is why his racism comes into it – finding out that you’re not the most important thing in the universe is a relief. I think it’s interesting that his characters go mad when they figure out that humanity doesn’t matter. It’s only terrifying if you ever thought you were important, if everything in society has propped you up as the dominant category.
Now I'm not saying it's a take I share, but it's definitely a perspective on the work that I hadn't considered.
H. P. Lovecraft’s cosmic pessimism is only terrifying if you’re a straight white man and you thought you were the center of the universe anyway. To anyone else – and this is why his racism comes into it – finding out that you’re not the most important thing in the universe is a relief. I think it’s interesting that his characters go mad when they figure out that humanity doesn’t matter. It’s only terrifying if you ever thought you were important, if everything in society has propped you up as the dominant category.
Now I'm not saying it's a take I share, but it's definitely a perspective on the work that I hadn't considered.
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of Lovecraft's actual writing. I think he's overly verbose and spends way too much time trying to describe things that are ultimately not at all important to the actual story. He's had an undeniably huge influence on science fiction/fantasy/horror but the people he inspired (and the people he was inspired by) are generally more enjoyable to read, as far as I'm concerned.
Lovecraft was not your typical racist though, even for the time
like it was more acceptable
but he was REALLY RACIST
I mean he wrote stories where people of other ethnic groups were just so ethnic that dark magic happened and monsters appeared.
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DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
there's this ancient hardcover I stole from a library dumpster, a collection of super old detective stories, like, real early noir
and holy shit are they racist
the villain in one is a cannibal jazz band and in the other are a premonitory (if you're racist) 'negro militia' that tries to kill a mayor. The story ends with a like, "IT COULD HAPPEN FOR REAL DON'T LET BLACK PEOPLE GATHER IN GROUPS" warning
those are the first two stories in the collection, I uh, haven't read the rest of them
Jeff bakalar sure is defending palmer lucky as "just young and naive" huh
ah yes, youthful mistakes like "aligning with white nationalism"
I mean, yeah actually. There were a lot of nazi sympathizers back in the 30's who were young, naive people who were angry at the world, as young people often are, and got swept up in the furor, who came to grievously regret their actions later in life. To this day you see this a lot with young people, especially in areas where racism is heavily normalized. Some of those people are "lifers" and some of them get more life experience and realize how shitty that stuff is and repent. None of that excuses what they did, of course, but it's possible to grow up and stop being a shitheel.
Jeff bakalar sure is defending palmer lucky as "just young and naive" huh
ah yes, youthful mistakes like "aligning with white nationalism"
I mean, yeah actually. There were a lot of nazi sympathizers back in the 30's who were young, naive people who were angry at the world, as young people often are, and got swept up in the fuhrer, who came to grievously regret their actions later in life. None of that excuses what they did, of course, but it's possible to grow up and stop being a shitheel.
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
Also the design of that cover resembles the Hotel Transylvania movies so I can 100% see it being a movie made to confuse people into buying it.
Ah, the good old Grandparent trap.
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
there's this ancient hardcover I stole from a library dumpster, a collection of super old detective stories, like, real early noir
and holy shit are they racist
the villain in one is a cannibal jazz band and in the other are a premonitory (if you're racist) 'negro militia' that tries to kill a mayor. The story ends with a like, "IT COULD HAPPEN FOR REAL DON'T LET BLACK PEOPLE GATHER IN GROUPS" warning
those are the first two stories in the collection, I uh, haven't read the rest of them
To be fair
"Cannibal Jazz Band" is a pretty good concept
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Jeff bakalar sure is defending palmer lucky as "just young and naive" huh
ah yes, youthful mistakes like "aligning with white nationalism"
I mean, yeah actually. There were a lot of nazi sympathizers back in the 30's who were young, naive people who were angry at the world, as young people often are, and got swept up in the fuhrer, who came to grievously regret their actions later in life. None of that excuses what they did, of course, but it's possible to grow up and stop being a shitheel.
if I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt I probably would've given up before seeing it
Jeff bakalar sure is defending palmer lucky as "just young and naive" huh
ah yes, youthful mistakes like "aligning with white nationalism"
I mean, yeah actually. There were a lot of nazi sympathizers back in the 30's who were young, naive people who were angry at the world, as young people often are, and got swept up in the fuhrer, who came to grievously regret their actions later in life. None of that excuses what they did, of course, but it's possible to grow up and stop being a shitheel.
if I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt I probably would've given up before seeing it
had to go all highlights magazine on this piece!!
It's important to mix up my normal repertoire of "What if boners, but also big words?" with a little subtlety
Jeff bakalar sure is defending palmer lucky as "just young and naive" huh
ah yes, youthful mistakes like "aligning with white nationalism"
I mean, yeah actually. There were a lot of nazi sympathizers back in the 30's who were young, naive people who were angry at the world, as young people often are, and got swept up in the fuhrer, who came to grievously regret their actions later in life. None of that excuses what they did, of course, but it's possible to grow up and stop being a shitheel.
if I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt I probably would've given up before seeing it
had to go all highlights magazine on this piece!!
It's important to mix up my normal repertoire of "What if boners, but also big words?" with a little subtlety
Indie Winterdie KräheRudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered Userregular
edited September 2016
what I recommend any Lovecraft fans, and even people who aren't big on him 'cause of the cisms, is to check out the Ballad of Black Tom. It's a Cthulhu Mythos book, by a person of color, that features a black protagonists and deals directly with black issues and the racial tension inherent to Lovecraft's works
Indie Winter on
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PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular
Man the disappointing thing about people not universally calling out Palmer Luckey on his racist Trump supporting bullshit is that while he's a more media trained public figure some of his girlfriend's twitter posts make it real clear that those people don't just love wacky memes.
...and sure, maybe the person he chooses to spend most of his time with posting alt-right bullshit to twitter doesn't reflect his views. Who among us hasn't actively chosen to spend all their free time with a racist?
Man the disappointing thing about people not universally calling out Palmer Luckey on his racist Trump supporting bullshit is that while he's a more media trained public figure some of his girlfriend's twitter posts make it real clear that those people don't just love wacky memes.
...and sure, maybe the person he chooses to spend most of his time with posting alt-right bullshit to twitter doesn't reflect his views. Who among us hasn't actively chosen to spend all their free time with a racist?
There's something kind of off-putting about this logic to me and I can't quite put my finger on specifically what.
In any case, I'd rather judge Luckey for the shit he says and does.
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PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular
Man the disappointing thing about people not universally calling out Palmer Luckey on his racist Trump supporting bullshit is that while he's a more media trained public figure some of his girlfriend's twitter posts make it real clear that those people don't just love wacky memes.
...and sure, maybe the person he chooses to spend most of his time with posting alt-right bullshit to twitter doesn't reflect his views. Who among us hasn't actively chosen to spend all their free time with a racist?
There's something kind of off-putting about this logic to me and I can't quite put my finger on specifically what.
In any case, I'd rather judge Luckey for the shit he says and does.
You know what? Fair enough, because it turns out you can look at his twitter likes and find some real gross garbage there too. He may not be actively saying racist things but he sure is applauding them.
Posts
Yeah like uh
Which stories are you talking about that can be separated from his horrific racism?
Because while there are definitely a few I can think of that don't have anything overtly bad, it's not any of the big ones
I would call myself a fan
doesn't mean he wasnt garbage
Also I just now realized that Tim Burton is Mini-Lovecraft
More of a Likecraft, really.
THE SHRIEKING MADNESS OF CHAR GAR GOTHAKON
THE BEAST THAT HATH NO NAME
I think it's a bad call across the board. Like you are witnessing something similar with figures like Stan Lee too. Where we remove them from being people and instead these sort of exaggerated forms of themselves. It makes it harder to not only engage with their actual points as historical figures, but also with their work as well.
like, oh, I can't read Conan or Lovecraft or Sherlock Holmes or
That's Thaddeus Venture in a wig and you can't fool me.
You don't need to discount an entire author's works because of their racism
I don't think anyone here is saying that
It's just something you gotta be aware of when you read his works, and that's just fine
Yeah like. I own all of Lovecraft's work. Even some of the post-humous stuff that was mostly just August Derleth. One of my best friends just got me a Lovecraft inspired collection of weird fiction on my last birthday.
I'm absolutely not saying people can't read the guy or even like his work. I just think audience awareness and engagement of an author as a real person is never a bad thing.
if a contemporary author or musician or whatever turns out to be racist or otherwise shitty
I generally drop them
I think it's just because I read those like, old pulp stories when I was a kid and so I've got nostalgia about it
Is that the modern(ish) Scooby show? Because I've heard good things.
like the episode with BLUE FALCON and DYNO-MUTT
Yeah, I'm in the exact same place
I have a separate shelf dedicated to my Lovecraft inspired board games
I have an art book of Lovecraft inspired stuff as big as most coffee tables
He was a super formative author for me in my love of horror, and I respect the hell out of some of his writing, even if I've softened on some of it since then
But manalive is he a problematic fave
It's much easier to accept that someone had abhorrent views that matched the time they lived in when it's not, y'know, NOW
Now I'm not saying it's a take I share, but it's definitely a perspective on the work that I hadn't considered.
like it was more acceptable
but he was REALLY RACIST
Huh. That's super interesting.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
The reality that you believe in is wrong and your entire sphere of experience is meaningless
I think that works even if you don't think you're the most important thing in the universe
I mean he wrote stories where people of other ethnic groups were just so ethnic that dark magic happened and monsters appeared.
and holy shit are they racist
the villain in one is a cannibal jazz band and in the other are a premonitory (if you're racist) 'negro militia' that tries to kill a mayor. The story ends with a like, "IT COULD HAPPEN FOR REAL DON'T LET BLACK PEOPLE GATHER IN GROUPS" warning
those are the first two stories in the collection, I uh, haven't read the rest of them
Lord knows I went mad after listening to that Weird Al song.
A fact that's well-established in Zoe Quinn's quote-identifying game "Hitler or Lovecraft?"
ah yes, youthful mistakes like "aligning with white nationalism"
I mean, yeah actually. There were a lot of nazi sympathizers back in the 30's who were young, naive people who were angry at the world, as young people often are, and got swept up in the furor, who came to grievously regret their actions later in life. To this day you see this a lot with young people, especially in areas where racism is heavily normalized. Some of those people are "lifers" and some of them get more life experience and realize how shitty that stuff is and repent. None of that excuses what they did, of course, but it's possible to grow up and stop being a shitheel.
Ah, the good old Grandparent trap.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
To be fair
"Cannibal Jazz Band" is a pretty good concept
if I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt I probably would've given up before seeing it
had to go all highlights magazine on this piece!!
It's important to mix up my normal repertoire of "What if boners, but also big words?" with a little subtlety
For seasoning
What if? Boners: Trucks Fates
Those blingees are great.
...and sure, maybe the person he chooses to spend most of his time with posting alt-right bullshit to twitter doesn't reflect his views. Who among us hasn't actively chosen to spend all their free time with a racist?
There's something kind of off-putting about this logic to me and I can't quite put my finger on specifically what.
In any case, I'd rather judge Luckey for the shit he says and does.
You know what? Fair enough, because it turns out you can look at his twitter likes and find some real gross garbage there too. He may not be actively saying racist things but he sure is applauding them.