This I did not know. I just assumed it was a Sims-esque game and so completely ignored it.
Whoa, yeah, it's basically Pikmin with more powerful/unique/important units and RPG progression.
And as an actual contribution to this conversation, any love for Opoona?
I heard it was not so good but I was intrigued with the idea of a game that you play with nothing but the nunchuck! That's really all you need for an RPG anyway.
I heard it was not so good but I was intrigued with the idea of a game that you play with nothing but the nunchuck! That's really all you need for an RPG anyway.
I think that some of it was due to the starting town/dome being quite confusing and there really wasn't a map available.
I blame third parties for being lazy and not taking full advantage of the capabilities of the Wii. I mean look at how RE4 ended up. It was an amazing game and looked good on the system. Why couldn't anyone else replicate that? Because they were trying to do the easy thing and port games around.
Huh? You decry their desire to port title and then point to a title that was... a port? Came out for GC and PS2 in 2005, PC and Wii in 2007. It was a port. The controls were very nice, but it wasn't some grand, innovative thing Capcom did. Resident Evil Wii didn't even improve on the graphics of the version from 2 years prior, despite having additional power.
To build on your point, third-parties wanted to port and enthusiast gamers wouldn't accept PS2 ports past launch. That's why third-parties walked away.
Sadly, the same thing could happen with the Wii U, depending on what Nintendo can get out to make gamers switch over.
@michaelpachter Michael Pachter
I agree that Nintendo should localize Xenoblade Chronicles, The Last Story, and Pandora's Tower for the American market @oprainfall
Both Baroque & Sakura Wars are PS2 ports. And Little King's Story is a bit of a stretch to call an RPG.
You have a party of named guys who get better equipment and stats over the course of the game.
Action/strategy RPG, yes, but there's RPG in there
This I did not know. I just assumed it was a Sims-esque game and so completely ignored it.
Therein lies the problem.
Best third-party release on the system. I can't help but wonder how much Nintendo's reluctance to localise anything now is tied to poor sales of games like it, Sin and Punishment 2, or Shattered Memories.
This whole debacle just shows that the business model for the Americas is not in line with the other two main regions. Now this is just conjecture, but I imagine the profit margins for each game sold are thusly low that they'd have to sell a decent amount of every released title to break even. Considering these games are fairly complex in size - they're no Electroplankton - this is reasonable to assume. Didn't FF13 tank or at least not make huge amounts of money in the West? Additionally, as mentioned already, there's the $1 = €1 (and close to £1) conversion in the Europas that allows for a wide margin to cover NOE's expenses.
So either Nintendo will have to change their business model or allow other publishers to buy the rights (not a lot of chance), wages would have to increase in NA (not a chance) or the dollar/yen would have to increase/decrease in value (who knows).
I'd really like to hear from someone in the know on this, because I can't see how any business model would prevent a release in the following circumstances:
- the title is commissioned by Nintendo, and has already been published by them in another country. No licensing woes.
- the title has already been translated and localised into English (and several other languages)
- Nintendo owns several disc-pressing plants, which can't be operating at anywhere near capacity
- Nintendo manufactures cases, inserts and manuals locally in each region (Germany for the EU), again nowhere near capacity
- Nintendo has a massive distribution network in each region, and the added cost of shipping a new title to the thousands of retailers each week has to be minimal.
- Nintendo, as the platform holder, gets a huge chunk of the margin on each game sold (Around £10 for a £40 game in the UK), so margin is less of an issue.
Now think about Atlus - every single one of those steps would be a barrier or substantial added cost for them (pretty certain they have to buy the Wii cases off Nintendo, for example, and get a far smaller cut of each sale since they have to pay Nintendo their share). How could this be a loss-making enterprise for Nintendo?
The theory someone floated elsewhere is that the voice-acting contracts for the EU localization (or should I say "localisation") didn't include worldwide/North American distribution rights, which sounds feasible.
Also, it could ultimately be simply about not wanting to tie up finances and time in a project like this when those resources could be put toward a more profitable project. They could spend $20 to make $25, but why would they bother when they can spend that same $20 to make $60?
Not a loss per se, but the opportunity costs involved in production and labor may not weigh up to the costs that could be better spent in other projects, like say 3DS and WiiU development and production. Nintendo has a finite amount of resources and they probably didn't want to budge from their original business plans to please a minority. They could have outsourced the localization, but I imagine Nintendo wants full control over it as their internal teams usually do a fantastic job at it. I can't remember a game where they let an external team do the translation of one of their games. How Europe got hold of these games? Who knows? The UK doesn't exactly favor Nintendo consoles and that's the biggest market over there.
I blame third parties for being lazy and not taking full advantage of the capabilities of the Wii. I mean look at how RE4 ended up. It was an amazing game and looked good on the system. Why couldn't anyone else replicate that? Because they were trying to do the easy thing and port games around.
Huh? You decry their desire to port title and then point to a title that was... a port? Came out for GC and PS2 in 2005, PC and Wii in 2007. It was a port. The controls were very nice, but it wasn't some grand, innovative thing Capcom did. Resident Evil Wii didn't even improve on the graphics of the version from 2 years prior, despite having additional power.
To build on your point, third-parties wanted to port and enthusiast gamers wouldn't accept PS2 ports past launch. That's why third-parties walked away.
Sadly, the same thing could happen with the Wii U, depending on what Nintendo can get out to make gamers switch over.
What I'm saying is that if they want to fucking port a game, that's how you do it. Have you ever played a multi-platform game that's also on the Wii? It's an abomination! It's never nearly as good as it's original.
RE4 proves that it can be done, but 3rd parties are very "meh" to the idea of actually trying to make it work on the Wii.
But there's also image and platform strength to consider as well. Nintendo isn't just a game publisher, they're the platform holder. The 3DS has not been a smash hit thus far (struggling wouldn't be inaccurate), and the Wii U's reception at E3 this year could kindly be called "mixed" (E3 2006 this was not). Wii sales have fallen off a cliff, and the DS has finally petered out. I'm not making any claims of "Nintendo is doomed" or other such nonsense, but this is the weakest position the company has been in since the DS launched. There's a reason that their share prices are the lowest they've been in years.
The Wii has a far better traditional software library than it's ever given credit for, but it's been lost in marketing and perceptions. Whether accurate or not, the traditional gamers largely feel that Nintendo has abandoned them. Against that backdrop Nintendo is making an overt attempt to recapture traditional gamers (I prefer "traditional" and "nontraditional" to the "core" and "casual labels; I think they're more accurate and less inflammatory) with the 3DS and Wii U. If they want to court that demographic, then they can't half-ass it. In that sense I think looking at the cost to bring these games to the US strictly in terms of their own sales and profitability is short-sighted. I would approach it as an investment in a demographic that will hopefully pay off next year with the launch of the Wii U. In other words, spending that $20 might only make $25 instead of $60 now, but next year it could be worth another $100 in aftereffects while the $60 is one-and-done. That goes double given that the Wii's software lineup has been and continues to be an absolute wasteland.
If I were in Reggie's shoes, this is how I would have handled this (assuming nothing from NCL gets in the way). First, ditch the Twitter/Facebook response. Elevate it to a full press release. That release should spend a decent amount of time praising the people behind Op Rainfall and what it represents. Odds are that most of the people behind this are the ones who have supported Nintendo for years, including through the GameCube days when Nintendo was bordering on irrelevance. Acknowledge that these guys got Nintendo where they are, and build them up. Then compromise. Don't give in completely. Offer Xenoblade only, with the promise of evaluating Last Story and Pandora's Tower based on how Xenoblade does (and no wild expectations here, 200-300,000 units would be a tremendous success for a relatively niche game like Xenoblade, realistic number are probably closer to 100,000, which would probably still turn a decent profit). Close by thanking the fans for their passionate support, and then promise to keep the lines of communication open. This of how much different people would be reacting, even though the result would be only a promise of one of the three games people are asking for.
The bigger picture is this: Operation Rainfall is bigger than the games now. Regardless of what Nintendo thinks, what this really represents is an outpouring of years of pent-up frustration with Nintendo as a whole. Their localization track record is steadily getting worse (yes Sporky, I know all about Heracles and Starfy, but those are two games, look at the big picture) and they've seemingly abandoned the Wii other than a few stragglers despite a number of games that never came over that could easily fill in the release schedule. Op Rainfall has over 2,000 Twitter followers, and Nintendo's Facebook comment has over 6,000 responses. This isn't about three niche JRPGs anymore, this is a referendum on Nintendo themselves. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that how Nintendo handles this will have a large impact on their relationship with traditional gamers for the next few years, including during the launch phase of the Wii U. So far they're off to a pretty crappy start. There's still a chance to fix it, but the clock is ticking.
The thing is, the Wii needed these games now. Not near december when Zelda is coming, not next year when the WiiU is coming out. The miscalculation was made a long time ago. It rarely happens, but I'm glad to be european right now, as I've been looking forward to both titles.
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I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that how Nintendo handles this will have a large impact on their relationship with traditional gamers for the next few years, including during the launch phase of the Wii U. So far they're off to a pretty crappy start. There's still a chance to fix it, but the clock is ticking.
I don't necessarily agree. Resources spent on localizing these games may very well have a negative effect, especially on such short term notice, as that will invariably affect already planned resources spent on WiiU, which is the platform Nintendo intends to recapture the traditional gamer. When Nintendo shows the WiiU title of whatever Monolith Soft or other parties are busy making and does decide to localize them, you can bet your ass that a group of people will flock right back. Gamers are fickle. It's only a small minority who are staunch enough to boycott a product that doesn't even exist yet. Those numbers will likely not matter.
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that how Nintendo handles this will have a large impact on their relationship with traditional gamers for the next few years, including during the launch phase of the Wii U. So far they're off to a pretty crappy start. There's still a chance to fix it, but the clock is ticking.
I don't necessarily agree. Resources spent on localizing these games may very well have a negative effect, especially on such short term notice, as that will invariably affect already planned resources spent on WiiU, which is the platform Nintendo intends to recapture the traditional gamer. When Nintendo shows the WiiU title of whatever Monolith Soft or other parties are busy making and does decide to localize them, you can bet your ass that a group of people will flock right back. Gamers are fickle. It's only a small minority who are staunch enough to boycott a product that doesn't even exist yet. Those numbers will likely not matter.
The localization effort has already been made for some of these games though, as they're being released in Europe in English. The money has been spent. They just don't want to release the games here.
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that how Nintendo handles this will have a large impact on their relationship with traditional gamers for the next few years, including during the launch phase of the Wii U. So far they're off to a pretty crappy start. There's still a chance to fix it, but the clock is ticking.
I don't necessarily agree. Resources spent on localizing these games may very well have a negative effect, especially on such short term notice, as that will invariably affect already planned resources spent on WiiU, which is the platform Nintendo intends to recapture the traditional gamer. When Nintendo shows the WiiU title of whatever Monolith Soft or other parties are busy making and does decide to localize them, you can bet your ass that a group of people will flock right back. Gamers are fickle. It's only a small minority who are staunch enough to boycott a product that doesn't even exist yet. Those numbers will likely not matter.
The localization effort has already been made for some of these games though, as they're being released in Europe in English. The money has been spent. They just don't want to release the games here.
I wonder if The Queen's English is really that different from ours.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited July 2011
Play Demon's Souls. That was a European localization, untouched for the US market.
I'm sure the American market can put up with a game with some 'armour' in it. God knows we Brits have had to put with enough 'armor' filled americo-centric translations in our time.
Except that NoA and NoE use different localizations. Look at Advance Wars: Days of Ruin (North America)/Dark Conflict (Europe) as an easy example. Same game, drastically different localization. NoA could use the European version, but I'm not sure there's any precedent for them ever doing that.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but localizing doesn't mean NOA's internal teams don't have to proofread, edit and do additional coding to abide by the rules of the ESRB and their own standards, which the NoE teams ignore. Monolith Soft is responsible for the coding and would have to spend manhours to do coding, letterboxing, lip synching etc. that would take away from whatever project they're currently busy with. Then there's printing, distribution and advertising. Not trying to defend Nintendo's decision to not bring them over, but using the logic "hey it's already translated!" doesn't make it a sure decision business-wise.
Except that NoA and NoE use different localizations. Look at Advance Wars: Days of Ruin (North America)/Dark Conflict (Europe) as an easy example. Same game, drastically different localization. NoA could use the European version, but I'm not sure there's any precedent for them ever doing that.
Except that NoA and NoE use different localizations. Look at Advance Wars: Days of Ruin (North America)/Dark Conflict (Europe) as an easy example. Same game, drastically different localization. NoA could use the European version, but I'm not sure there's any precedent for them ever doing that.
It varies. The Advance Wars case is a bit of an extreme example. On the other end is Hotel Dusk, which was left untouched from the US version except for a particular bit of American lingo that was too obscure over here.
I think all the Dragon Quest games since DQVIII have been localised at a particular UK agency and then had that translation used internationally, so I'm not sure Nintendo had much too do with that.
On Dragon Quest, I'm pretty sure that the localizations are all done by Square Enix. Nintendo published VI and IX, but I don't think they did those localizations.
Except that NoA and NoE use different localizations. Look at Advance Wars: Days of Ruin (North America)/Dark Conflict (Europe) as an easy example. Same game, drastically different localization. NoA could use the European version, but I'm not sure there's any precedent for them ever doing that.
Funny you mention that. The Spanish and French text from the American AW:DoR is ripped entirely from the European version.
Funny you mention that. The Spanish and French text from the American AW:DoR is ripped entirely from the European version.
There's no way the Spanish could be, cause there's common words used in European Spanish that are considered vulgar in Mexican Spanish and vice versa. I don't know any issues like that with French though so that's believable at least.
Funny you mention that. The Spanish and French text from the American AW:DoR is ripped entirely from the European version.
There's no way the Spanish could be, cause there's common words used in European Spanish that are considered vulgar in Mexican Spanish and vice versa. I don't know any issues like that with French though so that's believable at least.
I've only turned Spanish on in a handful of games, but NA games tend to use European Spanish more often.
Funny you mention that. The Spanish and French text from the American AW:DoR is ripped entirely from the European version.
There's no way the Spanish could be, cause there's common words used in European Spanish that are considered vulgar in Mexican Spanish and vice versa. I don't know any issues like that with French though so that's believable at least.
I've only turned Spanish on in a handful of games, but NA games tend to use European Spanish more often.
Brutal Legend is amazing in the other languages. French Tim Curry :winky:
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This I did not know. I just assumed it was a Sims-esque game and so completely ignored it.
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Oh, and my condolences, guys.
Drop what you're doing and go buy it right this instant!
And as an actual contribution to this conversation, any love for Opoona?
Whoa, yeah, it's basically Pikmin with more powerful/unique/important units and RPG progression.
I heard it was not so good but I was intrigued with the idea of a game that you play with nothing but the nunchuck! That's really all you need for an RPG anyway.
I think that some of it was due to the starting town/dome being quite confusing and there really wasn't a map available.
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http://twitter.com/#!/michaelpachter/status/86533932807491584
No idea if he's agreeing with Reggie or Rainfall, but seeing as he's wrong 90% of the time it's probably the former. Fuck you Pachter.
Edit: Wait a sec, looks like he's on our side. my bad. but...is that a good thing?
Huh? You decry their desire to port title and then point to a title that was... a port? Came out for GC and PS2 in 2005, PC and Wii in 2007. It was a port. The controls were very nice, but it wasn't some grand, innovative thing Capcom did. Resident Evil Wii didn't even improve on the graphics of the version from 2 years prior, despite having additional power.
To build on your point, third-parties wanted to port and enthusiast gamers wouldn't accept PS2 ports past launch. That's why third-parties walked away.
Sadly, the same thing could happen with the Wii U, depending on what Nintendo can get out to make gamers switch over.
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Pachter's siding with Rainfall.
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Therein lies the problem.
Best third-party release on the system. I can't help but wonder how much Nintendo's reluctance to localise anything now is tied to poor sales of games like it, Sin and Punishment 2, or Shattered Memories.
I'm half tempted to call it the Psychonauts Effect.
So either Nintendo will have to change their business model or allow other publishers to buy the rights (not a lot of chance), wages would have to increase in NA (not a chance) or the dollar/yen would have to increase/decrease in value (who knows).
- the title is commissioned by Nintendo, and has already been published by them in another country. No licensing woes.
- the title has already been translated and localised into English (and several other languages)
- Nintendo owns several disc-pressing plants, which can't be operating at anywhere near capacity
- Nintendo manufactures cases, inserts and manuals locally in each region (Germany for the EU), again nowhere near capacity
- Nintendo has a massive distribution network in each region, and the added cost of shipping a new title to the thousands of retailers each week has to be minimal.
- Nintendo, as the platform holder, gets a huge chunk of the margin on each game sold (Around £10 for a £40 game in the UK), so margin is less of an issue.
Now think about Atlus - every single one of those steps would be a barrier or substantial added cost for them (pretty certain they have to buy the Wii cases off Nintendo, for example, and get a far smaller cut of each sale since they have to pay Nintendo their share). How could this be a loss-making enterprise for Nintendo?
Also, it could ultimately be simply about not wanting to tie up finances and time in a project like this when those resources could be put toward a more profitable project. They could spend $20 to make $25, but why would they bother when they can spend that same $20 to make $60?
What I'm saying is that if they want to fucking port a game, that's how you do it. Have you ever played a multi-platform game that's also on the Wii? It's an abomination! It's never nearly as good as it's original.
RE4 proves that it can be done, but 3rd parties are very "meh" to the idea of actually trying to make it work on the Wii.
The Wii has a far better traditional software library than it's ever given credit for, but it's been lost in marketing and perceptions. Whether accurate or not, the traditional gamers largely feel that Nintendo has abandoned them. Against that backdrop Nintendo is making an overt attempt to recapture traditional gamers (I prefer "traditional" and "nontraditional" to the "core" and "casual labels; I think they're more accurate and less inflammatory) with the 3DS and Wii U. If they want to court that demographic, then they can't half-ass it. In that sense I think looking at the cost to bring these games to the US strictly in terms of their own sales and profitability is short-sighted. I would approach it as an investment in a demographic that will hopefully pay off next year with the launch of the Wii U. In other words, spending that $20 might only make $25 instead of $60 now, but next year it could be worth another $100 in aftereffects while the $60 is one-and-done. That goes double given that the Wii's software lineup has been and continues to be an absolute wasteland.
If I were in Reggie's shoes, this is how I would have handled this (assuming nothing from NCL gets in the way). First, ditch the Twitter/Facebook response. Elevate it to a full press release. That release should spend a decent amount of time praising the people behind Op Rainfall and what it represents. Odds are that most of the people behind this are the ones who have supported Nintendo for years, including through the GameCube days when Nintendo was bordering on irrelevance. Acknowledge that these guys got Nintendo where they are, and build them up. Then compromise. Don't give in completely. Offer Xenoblade only, with the promise of evaluating Last Story and Pandora's Tower based on how Xenoblade does (and no wild expectations here, 200-300,000 units would be a tremendous success for a relatively niche game like Xenoblade, realistic number are probably closer to 100,000, which would probably still turn a decent profit). Close by thanking the fans for their passionate support, and then promise to keep the lines of communication open. This of how much different people would be reacting, even though the result would be only a promise of one of the three games people are asking for.
The bigger picture is this: Operation Rainfall is bigger than the games now. Regardless of what Nintendo thinks, what this really represents is an outpouring of years of pent-up frustration with Nintendo as a whole. Their localization track record is steadily getting worse (yes Sporky, I know all about Heracles and Starfy, but those are two games, look at the big picture) and they've seemingly abandoned the Wii other than a few stragglers despite a number of games that never came over that could easily fill in the release schedule. Op Rainfall has over 2,000 Twitter followers, and Nintendo's Facebook comment has over 6,000 responses. This isn't about three niche JRPGs anymore, this is a referendum on Nintendo themselves. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that how Nintendo handles this will have a large impact on their relationship with traditional gamers for the next few years, including during the launch phase of the Wii U. So far they're off to a pretty crappy start. There's still a chance to fix it, but the clock is ticking.
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The localization effort has already been made for some of these games though, as they're being released in Europe in English. The money has been spent. They just don't want to release the games here.
I wonder if The Queen's English is really that different from ours.
Dragon Quest 9.
It varies. The Advance Wars case is a bit of an extreme example. On the other end is Hotel Dusk, which was left untouched from the US version except for a particular bit of American lingo that was too obscure over here.
I think all the Dragon Quest games since DQVIII have been localised at a particular UK agency and then had that translation used internationally, so I'm not sure Nintendo had much too do with that.
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I've only turned Spanish on in a handful of games, but NA games tend to use European Spanish more often.
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Brutal Legend is amazing in the other languages. French Tim Curry :winky: