When a guy, who looks like your dead childhood friend, comes in talking about personal details from your life with your dead childhood friend, talking to them seems like a fairly rational option.
This happened to two people. One of them started listening. The other didn't care, hated him, and did everything he could to convince the other person otherwise.
It's not even that the other didn't care. They made the decision that the best play was to be an enormous dick about it, regardless. Which totally fits the character.
When a guy, who looks like your dead childhood friend, comes in talking about personal details from your life with your dead childhood friend, talking to them seems like a fairly rational option.
Even when that person breaks into your work place, beats up the security guards, illegally gains access to areas he's not allowed, and interrupts your job?
Oh, and he only kind of looks like your childhood friend, has no physical evidence or proof, has no knowledge of your current situation like the rather important fact that your father is dead, and doesn't actually provide any personal details in the first meeting. He only provides some personal details in a second meeting after he breaks into your house and a third meeting where he carjacks you. Yup, seems like it would be completely rational to treat the person's claims seriously rather than call the police on him.
You keep saying "beat up security guards" and I challenge you to rewatch the first episode and that fight scene.
Why would he know about their current situation? He's been missing for 15 years.
"My father died after you disappeared and no one heard anything from you or ever found your body, so I'd expect you to know exactly when he died and all my personal details that you weren't here for"? He says "I'm Danny Rand", not "I'm omniscient".
What he does have is knowledge of your personal history together and is coming forward and immediately telling you stuff from your childhood together. The kind of thing you would ask someone to prove that they are who they say, and he's cutting right to the chase on it and saying it.
When a guy, who looks like your dead childhood friend, comes in talking about personal details from your life with your dead childhood friend, talking to them seems like a fairly rational option.
Even when that person breaks into your work place, beats up the security guards, illegally gains access to areas he's not allowed, and interrupts your job?
Oh, and he only kind of looks like your childhood friend, has no physical evidence or proof, has no knowledge of your current situation like the rather important fact that your father is dead, and doesn't actually provide any personal details in the first meeting. He only provides some personal details in a second meeting after he breaks into your house and a third meeting where he carjacks you. Yup, seems like it would be completely rational to treat the person's claims seriously rather than call the police on him.
Except it's not just about the consequences to Danny. He's scaring and threatening other people. The world isn't centered around Danny and what he wants. He beats the shit out of guards who were doing their job. He invades people's privacy and personal space. He scares the shit out of the Meachums and threatens them. At this point, I don't give a shit if Danny doesn't care about the consequences to himself, I think he's a sociopathic asshole for not caring about what his actions are doing to other people.
I'm only three episodes in, so I'm not sure if this is the scene you're talking about, but if its the fight at the beginning of the first episode... (minor spoilers for about five minutes into the first episode)
"beats the shit out of guards" is really stretching it. He never even throws a punch. They swing at him and he flips them, practically gingerly. He fights five guards, and all five are shown moving and conscious throughout, if a little dazed. One of them never even goes to the ground. If it was real life, four of them would probably be checked for a concussion, but they never even lose consciousness. Which by TV standards, and these Netflix Marvel shows in particular, practically makes Danny Gandhi.
As somebody who's supposed to have been isolated from civilization and the rules of real society from the ages of 10 to 25, who just wants to reconnect with his past, I don't have a hard time buying Danny taking the measures he does. Not that the Meachums (at first, anyways) are in the wrong for being skeptical that a Hobo Ninja is actually their long-lost-presumed-to-be-dead-friend, or anything. But I don't really see any of the main parties acting in a way that's unreasonable. Not at first, at least.
Except Danny didn't just magically teleport from K'un Lun to New York. In the second episode, they showed that he had a forged American passport and he said he got it from Morocco.
So that means he had to travel thousands of miles, go through multiple countries, through cities and towns, through airports, shipping ports, and bus and train stations, through immigration and customs to get to New York. Not to mention how he would have had to learn about basic rules and laws of society, so that he knows that he needs a passport. He had to deal with criminals, earn money or favors, to get that forged passport (unless he stole and forged it himself, which is unlikely).
And he still learned nothing about the outside world through all that travel? No one told him that acting like a crazy stalker isn't OK? He never got into any altercations because of his inappropriate and sometimes threatening behavior? No one told him that his story about the Iron Fist is crazy talk and he shouldn't tell people about it? It's not like the countries he would have had to travel through were mystical lawless lands devoid of modern civilization.
Why would they have any of those conversations with him? How often have you stopped what you are doing to give an impromptu lecture to a homeless foreigner on the intricacies of human interaction? His behavior is entirely motivated by trying to prove who he is, and getting rejected. Having a family member out right deny who you are and any connection hurts like hell, and to Danny those two are family. As we see with the homeless guy he will act like a dick, but generally ignores anyone else. Money issue is explained later in the series, and no it would not have helped him acclimate to a foreign culture. Especially since he was still immersed in what we would consider completely foreign cultures giving him no better understanding of how to interact in USA.
Why would he need a lecture on the intricacies of human interaction? Was he in a completely isolated vacuum his entire journey? Simple observation and interaction would tell him a lot of the basics of human interaction and culture. He wouldn't need any explanation for why his behaviors are wrong. He would have experienced the consequences of his behaviors in his travels. If he tried to board a boat or a plane without paying tickets, he would get accosted and kicked out. If he tried entering a place without proper ID or credentials, he would be turned away. If he acted like a creep or stalker, he would get attacked or insulted. If he had a simple friendly conversation with someone and told them about K'un Lun, the other person would treat him like a crazy person. He would have to be a complete moron to need people to explain to him that he shouldn't continue those behaviors.
Also, how is his story crazier than the Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man, or any of the other dozen or so super heroes running around in public currently? Hell, his makes more sense than some of them. An evil robot created from a magical gemstone and two scientists dicking around managed to float a city in the air and almost ended all life on Earth by smashing it into the ground but Norse god Thor and buddies intervened and helped save the day. If this is my reality then yeah, mystic temple in an alternate dimension actually makes a lot of sense.
So if a Nigerian prince asks you for money to help get their inheritance out of the country, you'd give them the money? Because people inheriting millions of dollars is a thing that happens in the world. It's the reality you live in, so someone inheriting millions of dollars and needing your help to get it makes a lot of sense.
Why would he do any of that? He walked into his father's company trying to reconnect with his family. His assumption being they would welcome him back. We have solid proof he did NOT try that bullshit in other areas. Episode 3 shows he clearly did do what he needed to do.
So, while wandering through countries that speak languages that he doesn't, with customs and norms that we here don't, and he was doing the bare minimum just to get back to society at what point do you think he would learn through example that maybe his surrogate family wouldn't be quick to embrace him? Never. Never is the answer to that. Mostly because he literally wouldn't understand much of what was said around him beyond people who speak Mandarin or English. While this is common, it is not universal.
Why would he do any of what? Do the things that are necessary to get back to New York? Have basic human interaction with people on his journey? Try to learn about the world that he hasn't known for 15 years? How is it illogical for him to do any of those very basic things?
As for the countries he wander through, yes they have many different customs, but there are also a lot of similarities. He wasn't wandering through some lawless lands devoid of modern civilization. China is not some backward ass country existing in the dark ages with a culture completely alien to the US. China is a modern country with a lot of western influences. You can easily learn that all the things Danny did was not acceptable by living just a few weeks in China.
As to the last part, well that is a completely garbage analogy. He didn't show up asking for money, or anything. I would certainly believe this person could be a Nigerian prince getting his inheritance. But beyond that there is no real points of comparison to draw here. The Meechums reaction is certainly understandable, but his base story is entirely believable. Everyone in the story even ultimately reacts as if this is a thing that could very certainly happen in this crazy world.
I was responding to your claim that just because there are superheroes and aliens in the world, it would make sense for people to accept that someone is from a mystical city.
My point is that there are princes and millionaires in the real world. But it wouldn't make sense for you to accept that someone making those claims is telling the truth.
Even in a world with aliens and superheroes, it still makes way more sense for people to think Danny is a crazy person.
Learned it how? You keep asserting he should have learned it, but have yet to explain why he would have. The behavior you complain about is completely contained to his interactions with his old friends. It doesn't matter where he went through. This is not a topic that would have come up. Also, he most certainly wasn't going through the civilized part of anywhere. Immigrating into the USA illegally involves a rather lot of lawless activity.
Really, is it that hard to learn that trespassing is illegal? Is it that hard to understand what security guards are? Is it that hard to learn about personal space and privacy? Is it that hard to learn that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?
As for him going through civilized places, you do know that illegal activities are committed inside cities, don't you? If someone wants to gets some forged documents, they'd have to go to criminals operating inside cities and towns, where they would be exposed to civilization. If Danny wanted to get on a ship traveling to the US, he'd have to go to a major port, inside a big city.
I knew what you were responding to. Your analogy just wasn't relevant in the least. I was in line to get an autograph from Jane Goodall the other day. I got to chatting with the person next to me who casually mentioned how her husband works for the university and has been interviewed on CNN for some project or another. I took it at face value because this particular university is likely to have people interviewed on CNN for their projects. Plausible and no reason to doubt it so why would I? Much like everyone else comes around to after he can display some level of enhanced ability.
Except Danny didn't display any enhanced abilities. He displayed some martial arts. You don't need to be enhanced to know martial arts. If someone showed you $1,000, are you automatically going to believe that they're a millionaire?
There are far more people who have been interviewed on CNN in the real world than there are enhanced people in the MCU. Just about anyone can get interviewed on CNN. Not anyone can have super powers.
Yes, crime happens inside cities. Cities also have various subcultures with their own rules and values. Worrying about who owns what typically isn't high up on the list at all. Beyond that, he knew what he was doing was wrong. He just happened to actually own the building, and expected that his surrogate family would recognize him. Given that we have already gone over this I am not certain what point you are trying to make.
Why would he expect his surrogate family to recognize him? This isn't even a cultural thing. The passage of time and how it can change things and people is something all people can understand. Is Danny so blind and devoid of perspective that he can't recognize how much he's changed over the 15 years and consider the possibility that the Meachums also changed during that time?
As for Danny being involved in crime, as we see later in the show, he clearly understands what crimes are. So it's not like he was naively tricked into committing crimes without understanding their context.
You are right. He would have to display his powers. Good thing he openly acknowledges and addresses that every single time it is a problem. I can't think of a single time he doesn't either display his powers, or explain whats going on.
Yes, it would be perfectly reasonable for the psychologist to believe the dangerous stalker hobo who broke into a place of business, beat up the security guards, accosted the Meachums, later broke into Joy's home, and carjacked and threatened Ward. The risk of letting this dangerous possibly deranged person loose is just as low as believing that a person who may have lied about being interviewed by CNN.
Because that is literally his only hope of getting his life back? Surprise! Emotions aren't always super rational! Plus he is the same person. It is possible to recognize someone you only knew as a child. Yeah, he wasn't thinking things through in a super clear manner. That is normal! He is trying to reconnect to people from a life he was ripped from 15 years ago using literally the only means available to him. You are also stretching the "threatening Ward" bit to a pretty odd extreme considering how that exchange went down.
You wouldn't consider a threat if a random person got in your car and refused to get out?
Just put yourself in the shoes of some of the people who interacted with Danny. Can you honestly tell me that if someone acted like that towards you, you would just be fine with it?
Also, why are we now talking about the reactions to his story? No one is questioning that. However, the character you reference actually did want to believe him.
Because my point was that Danny didn't behave like a normal human being in the way he considers how other people would react to him. It's not just an issue of Danny being naive and not understanding American culture. It's an issue of Danny doing things that would make other people extremely uncomfortable or threatened.
Edit: Epsiode 3-4ish spoiler
To be more direct, the doctor there was more than willing to accept this explanation because Danny's story was already fucking stupidly hard to explain. He came in claiming to be the long lost heir to a billion dollar company after being the lone survivor of a plane crash in the middle of no where. In this fucking reality it is more likely that an alternate dimensional monk took you in than surviving that shit. His base fucking story is super nuts which is why the doctor is so completely dismissive. Once established he is skeptical because there is always someone in the psych ward claiming to have super powers in these shows. He wants to believe him though because there is a good chance he really is super human. Danny showed he was willing to get violent while doped up on this shit though, and directly in front of the doctor when he smashed his shit. The whole situation plays out in a way that implies that Danny's story is easily could make sense in their world. This also happens to be the LAST time anyone doubts his story because it is so plausible in their world.
How does Danny showing himself to be violent help his case with the doctor? Not to mention the fact that he did a bunch of illegal stuff before being sent to the mental hospital.
I get you don't like the show, and it certainly has some flaws. I don't see how what you keep harping on is in any way a part of that though. Danny doesn't interact well with modern society is expected. For all we know that was a consistent problem for him, but he doesn't go around threatening anyone. He doesn't directly threaten random people off the street ever. He is shown repeatedly to be extremely compliant with rules plus or minus a temper problem when he is repeatedly denied his identity which is pretty normal actually. Beat up the show for where it is weak. Not for the parts that actually make sense.
Do you really not see how Danny's actions are portrayed is a problem? Yes, he never went around punching innocent people in the face for no reason. But he does commit crimes and threaten people. The fact that he's naive and didn't understand what he was doing doesn't change the fact that what he did was completely inappropriate and illegal. The show doesn't have Danny learn the simple lesson that just because there is no malicious intent behind an action doesn't mean the action can't be threatening or harmful. They sidestep the issue by making Ward an even bigger asshole who sends people to assassinate him.
When a guy, who looks like your dead childhood friend, comes in talking about personal details from your life with your dead childhood friend, talking to them seems like a fairly rational option.
Even when that person breaks into your work place, beats up the security guards, illegally gains access to areas he's not allowed, and interrupts your job?
Oh, and he only kind of looks like your childhood friend, has no physical evidence or proof, has no knowledge of your current situation like the rather important fact that your father is dead, and doesn't actually provide any personal details in the first meeting. He only provides some personal details in a second meeting after he breaks into your house and a third meeting where he carjacks you. Yup, seems like it would be completely rational to treat the person's claims seriously rather than call the police on him.
You keep saying "beat up security guards" and I challenge you to rewatch the first episode and that fight scene.
Why would he know about their current situation? He's been missing for 15 years.
"My father died after you disappeared and no one heard anything from you or ever found your body, so I'd expect you to know exactly when he died and all my personal details that you weren't here for"? He says "I'm Danny Rand", not "I'm omniscient".
You're the one arguing that the Meachums should have taken Danny seriously. So how would the fact that Danny knows nothing about their current situation help convince them that they should trust Danny?
What he does have is knowledge of your personal history together and is coming forward and immediately telling you stuff from your childhood together. The kind of thing you would ask someone to prove that they are who they say, and he's cutting right to the chase on it and saying it.
Except he gives none of those details in their first meeting. All he does is repeatedly say that he's Danny Rand. He only gives personal information in his second meeting with Joy, where he broke into her house, and his second meeting with Ward, where he basically carjacks him.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Except he gives none of those details in their first meeting. All he does is repeatedly say that he's Danny Rand. He only gives personal information in his second meeting with Joy, where he broke into her house, and his second meeting with Ward, where he basically carjacks him.
He does give some details when he first sees Joy and Ward. When he learns that their father is dead, he mentions that all of their parents are gone now. And I'm pretty sure he says something about a restaurant that they all used to go to. He was (rightfully so) treated as a hostile crazy person immediately upon getting upstairs, and didn't really have time to give details about their childhood before the security (that were perfectly capable of escorting him out of the building, despite their earlier altercation with him) saw him out. And yeah, he carjacks Ward. He tries to reach out to Joy and Ward individually after failing when talking to them both. At this point he's still holding out hope that one of them will recognize him and he's getting a little desperate.
Yes, he breaks the law. You are absolutely right on that. But is that not par for the course in this kind of show? Every single super hero ever breaks the law (I guess except when they're explicitly sanctioned by the police/government). That Danny doesn't leave a trail of critically injured people in his wake actually sets him apart in this regard, for the better, from most super heroes.
Absolutely, the show has flaws. I'm not even sure if its very good at 3 episodes in. But I don't think its flawed for the same reasons as you.
And the mystic vanishing back pack is clearly one of Danny's Hobo Monk powers.
Do you really not see how Danny's actions are portrayed is a problem? Yes, he never went around punching innocent people in the face for no reason. But he does commit crimes and threaten people. The fact that he's naive and didn't understand what he was doing doesn't change the fact that what he did was completely inappropriate and illegal. The show doesn't have Danny learn the simple lesson that just because there is no malicious intent behind an action doesn't mean the action can't be threatening or harmful. They sidestep the issue by making Ward an even bigger asshole who sends people to assassinate him.
Episode 1-4ish
Yes, Danny commits crimes. And? I don't see your point. His actions were extremely emotionally charged because the situation is extremely emotionally charged. You harp on him committing crimes a lot, but never expand on what that means for his character exactly. Literally every super hero commits a shit ton of crimes and does a lot of seriously fucked up and threatening shit like all the time. I just don't see your point. Were Danny's actions the best? Maybe not. Were they logical for the situation he was in? Yeah kinda they were. I certainly don't think jamming a gun in someones face over grand theft auto is remotely acceptable though. It is only kind of a car jacking because Ward decided to get in the car.
His actions that were super bad were breaking into a building he owned, and was certain he would be welcomed at. He only tried breaking in after he was (understandably) refused entry. He then went to check out his child hood home just for nostalgia which is super bad, but I get it. It happened to be Joy's house which makes it creepier, but not by his intent. He then hijacks Ward's car to force him to listen. Ward continues to be a jack ass even after he has to be certain it is Danny because money. Some of his shit is desperate actions, but he literally has no other options. He can't physically prove he is Danny so he goes to extremes because it is super important to him. All of his actions are pretty understandable given that light.
Episode 3ish
You wouldn't consider a threat if a random person got in your car and refused to get out?
Just put yourself in the shoes of some of the people who interacted with Danny. Can you honestly tell me that if someone acted like that towards you, you would just be fine with it?
Episode 3ish
I am a former social worker who spent a lot of time working child protective services, and with homeless populations. Bad example is all I can say cause I roll with punches a lot easier than that. I wouldn't be super happy, but I would hear the person out. I would also try to help them as best I could. I would have done it after the first encounter though. What is the harm in hearing someone out and then letting them go their way peacefully?
OK, let me boil my problem with Danny down to two questions. Should he apologize for breaking into Ward's office at the beginning? Did he apologize for it?
That's the problem. It's OK for Danny to be naive and do stupid things. But the show has to portray it as being the wrong thing to do regardless of the intentions behind the action. Danny should learn that what he did was wrong and apologize to the people he may have unintentionally hurt. Instead, they just sidestep the issue by escalating the situation to a ridiculous degree with Ward sending people to kill Danny so he doesn't even have to acknowledge his mistake.
In a genre about vigilante justice, personal space etiquette seems like a really weird thing to get hung up on. Especially when the actions in question are written in as part of the growth of the character.
OK, let me boil my problem with Danny down to two questions. Should he apologize for breaking into Ward's office at the beginning? Did he apologize for it?
That's the problem. It's OK for Danny to be naive and do stupid things. But the show has to portray it as being the wrong thing to do regardless of the intentions behind the action. Danny should learn that what he did was wrong and apologize to the people he may have unintentionally hurt. Instead, they just sidestep the issue by escalating the situation to a ridiculous degree with Ward sending people to kill Danny so he doesn't even have to acknowledge his mistake.
I think I get your problem with him, I'm just having trouble, like many here, understanding why you're drawing the line at some nonviolent crimes as being a bridge too far for a character who exists in a universe that glorifies vigilante violence for entertainment purposes.
OK, let me boil my problem with Danny down to two questions. Should he apologize for breaking into Ward's office at the beginning? Did he apologize for it?
That's the problem. It's OK for Danny to be naive and do stupid things. But the show has to portray it as being the wrong thing to do regardless of the intentions behind the action. Danny should learn that what he did was wrong and apologize to the people he may have unintentionally hurt. Instead, they just sidestep the issue by escalating the situation to a ridiculous degree with Ward sending people to kill Danny so he doesn't even have to acknowledge his mistake.
I think in Danny's mind he is in the right to do those things as a combination of him being an immortal weapon from heaven and it is technically his birthright. Ends justify the means, right makes might, and all that. He has come back to get his birthright and he's gonna make it work and doesn't really care about earthly customs so much because he is right and good.
This is his major character flaw. There are multiple decisions that he makes throughout the series, with an honorable/good objective in mind, that cause massive havoc as a result of the poor methods he uses to accomplish that goal. A conflict or situation occurs -> he looks at what should be the "most good" that can be accomplished -> Danny ignores all conflicting advice or all possible problems and takes the shortest path that will accomplish this "most good" concept in his mind. It basically ruins everyone around him until he learns the lesson.
Its a stark contrast to Luke Cage, the only other of the netflix marvel shows I've seen. Luke was much more restrained and introspective and unwilling to engage. I liked that about the show, Danny's rather irrational behavior kind of irritates me so far, but I haven't been past the second episode yet.
Also, it seemed a bit weird in the first episode when
The securities guys try to kill him, Danny seems to have a remarkable familiarity with handguns, dropping the magazine out of the guys pistols without any fiddling or examination and then throwing them away.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
Its a stark contrast to Luke Cage, the only other of the netflix marvel shows I've seen. Luke was much more restrained and introspective and unwilling to engage. I liked that about the show, Danny's rather irrational behavior kind of irritates me so far, but I haven't been past the second episode yet.
Also, it seemed a bit weird in the first episode when
The securities guys try to kill him, Danny seems to have a remarkable familiarity with handguns, dropping the magazine out of the guys pistols and then throwing them away.
not enough familiarity! Half the time he just drops the mag and gun right next to the asshole he's fighting and jogs away!
Its a stark contrast to Luke Cage, the only other of the netflix marvel shows I've seen. Luke was much more restrained and introspective and unwilling to engage. I liked that about the show, Danny's rather irrational behavior kind of irritates me so far, but I haven't been past the second episode yet.
Also, it seemed a bit weird in the first episode when
The securities guys try to kill him, Danny seems to have a remarkable familiarity with handguns, dropping the magazine out of the guys pistols and then throwing them away.
I imagine
that his martial education in K'un Lun was pretty extensive. Just because they don't use guns doesn't mean they've never encountered them.
Its a stark contrast to Luke Cage, the only other of the netflix marvel shows I've seen. Luke was much more restrained and introspective and unwilling to engage. I liked that about the show, Danny's rather irrational behavior kind of irritates me so far, but I haven't been past the second episode yet.
Also, it seemed a bit weird in the first episode when
The securities guys try to kill him, Danny seems to have a remarkable familiarity with handguns, dropping the magazine out of the guys pistols and then throwing them away.
Your spoiler will be explained by the end of the season but in general terms
The dudes he was trained to fight are known to use guns
Imagine Daredevil roaming Hell's Kitchen, issuing appologies to everyone he'd ever committed a misdemeanor trespassing against.
I kind of wanted Daredevil to show up in episode 13
Just like pops up behind Davos and Danny out of nowhere while they're watching Colleen and Bakuto fight.
"So, two people fighting with katana in the rain in the park. Which one is part of The Hand?"
i would watch colleen wing, psychopath if netflix choose to air it
I said the same thing about this show, and I totally meant it, but if they made a for real Heroes For Hire series starring Colleen and Misty, I don't know what I'd do.
Watch the whole damn thing the day it released, for one.
I finished Episode 5. The plot is at the point it should have been at least one episode ago, and quite possibly one and three-quarters ago. It's frustratingly glacial, and there hasn't been any scene that stands out like the previous series yet.
The hallway hatchet fight was the closet thing to a good fight scene for Danny, and even that felt lukewarm. Hearing about how little time Jones had to prepare for the physical stuff and fight scenes makes me feel bad for the guy, he might actually be okay at this stuff if they fucking gave him proper time to prep for it - or they gave Danny a damn mask so a stunt person could step in.
I will steal someone's criticism of this show that I agree with: this show has no central theme or conflict. The other marvel Netflix shows have a structural center that drives everything, and this one just doesn't. It's just a lot of incidents.
"Who killed my parents " isn't a center. The show just kind of meanders.
All of the other Netflix shows feel like varying degrees of quality cable shows. Iron first feels like an actual abc show, in budget and quality.
In a genre about vigilante justice, personal space etiquette seems like a really weird thing to get hung up on. Especially when the actions in question are written in as part of the growth of the character.
But they're not written as part of the growth of the character. Danny doesn't seem to learn anything from those things.
As for the other shows, the violations of rights is done in pursuit of a greater goal. Daredevil does illegal things to stop criminals. Jessica Jones does bad things to stop Kilgrave. Danny broke into Ward's office for personal reasons. And those other shows do actually acknowledge that the characters did messed up things. The relationship between Matt and Foggy completely broke down. Jessica is ridden with self doubt and guilt, she even calls herself a piece of shit.
In a genre about vigilante justice, personal space etiquette seems like a really weird thing to get hung up on. Especially when the actions in question are written in as part of the growth of the character.
But they're not written as part of the growth of the character. Danny doesn't seem to learn anything from those things.
As for the other shows, the violations of rights is done in pursuit of a greater goal. Daredevil does illegal things to stop criminals. Jessica Jones does bad things to stop Kilgrave. Danny broke into Ward's office for personal reasons. And those other shows do actually acknowledge that the characters did messed up things. The relationship between Matt and Foggy completely broke down. Jessica is ridden with self doubt and guilt, she even calls herself a piece of shit.
They should have cut, like, 70% of the Meechum stuff. The early fights are everyone not really at their best (intentionally and unintentionally), and the best fights are on the back end of the series with some really genuinely great fights around the middle.
I still think there's a lot of promise in the separate elements of the show. I can easily imagine a good version of Iron Fist Season 1 using this general plotline and actors.
Just... Not with this showrunner and writing team.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
They should have cut, like, 70% of the Meechum stuff. The early fights are everyone not really at their best (intentionally and unintentionally), and the best fights are on the back end of the series with some really genuinely great fights around the middle.
I kind of liked the Meechum stuff. Ward's actor gave two of the best acting performances in the show
1) When he was stabbing his father
2) When he was sitting on the bench talking to Joy and couldn't tell her what secret he was keeping from her
Yeah the Meachums are not that interesting and they get waaay too much time (they do have some good scenes, but a lot of boring as fuck scenes too).
Focus the show way more on Danny as a fish out of water. Let Danny and Colleen develop more of a rapport doing normal city shit. Spend more time on Colleen in general. Explore Danny the hard-ass warrior monk and how he feels about being a hard-ass warrior monk. Heck, explore some of Colleen's students and how they feel about this crazy white kung fu dude who's hanging out with their sensei now.
I'd enjoy all of those things a lot more than endless Rand Corp. debates over profit margins.
Kana on
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Maybe just give the lead actor more than two months to prepare for the role both physically and in terms of skill. Hearing about how rushed everything was, only after having watched more than half of the series, made me appreciate how much they got out of the actors. The people behind it had years to work on it beforehand, and big portions of it could have had more polish than it got. I do really look forward to the next Iron Fist season and hope that they have their shit together on the back end for it.
A lot of the flaws of the early episodes are improved in the later episodes.
In a genre about vigilante justice, personal space etiquette seems like a really weird thing to get hung up on. Especially when the actions in question are written in as part of the growth of the character.
But they're not written as part of the growth of the character. Danny doesn't seem to learn anything from those things.
As for the other shows, the violations of rights is done in pursuit of a greater goal. Daredevil does illegal things to stop criminals. Jessica Jones does bad things to stop Kilgrave. Danny broke into Ward's office for personal reasons. And those other shows do actually acknowledge that the characters did messed up things. The relationship between Matt and Foggy completely broke down. Jessica is ridden with self doubt and guilt, she even calls herself a piece of shit.
How far are you into the series?
I know the fact that him telling everyone he's the Iron Fist is actually a huge fuck up since it revealed
to the Hand that the path to K'un Lun is open and unprotected.
Thoughts about Danny that aren't episode specific but have non-specific story implications;
Danny is a spoiled rich kid who in some very important ways stopped maturing at 10. He feels entitled to things being a certain way because that's how he always assumed they'd be that way when he grew up/came back. On top of that, the only thing he's ever really applied himself to made him a warrior hero of legend in the place he grew up, but that means jack shit to your average New Yorker and he's kinda pissed about that.
In sort of a strange way, he's an avatar of well-meaning white privilege. And that's where a bunch of his problematic behaviors come from. It's an echo of the comics that I'm finding very interesting.
In a genre about vigilante justice, personal space etiquette seems like a really weird thing to get hung up on. Especially when the actions in question are written in as part of the growth of the character.
But they're not written as part of the growth of the character. Danny doesn't seem to learn anything from those things.
As for the other shows, the violations of rights is done in pursuit of a greater goal. Daredevil does illegal things to stop criminals. Jessica Jones does bad things to stop Kilgrave. Danny broke into Ward's office for personal reasons. And those other shows do actually acknowledge that the characters did messed up things. The relationship between Matt and Foggy completely broke down. Jessica is ridden with self doubt and guilt, she even calls herself a piece of shit.
How far are you into the series?
I know the fact that him telling everyone he's the Iron Fist is actually a huge fuck up since it revealed
to the Hand that the path to K'un Lun is open and unprotected.
Yep, he's kind of a fuckup. That's written all over the series.
They should have cut, like, 70% of the Meechum stuff. The early fights are everyone not really at their best (intentionally and unintentionally), and the best fights are on the back end of the series with some really genuinely great fights around the middle.
I kind of liked the Meechum stuff. Ward's actor gave two of the best acting performances in the show
1) When he was stabbing his father
2) When he was sitting on the bench talking to Joy and couldn't tell her what secret he was keeping from her
Both of those were outstanding, imo
I agree, and that's why the % wasn't higher. There was some great stuff, but I felt the series as a whole lingered too long on the goings-on at Rand Corp, and dealing with multiple subplots with the Meechums. A good deal of which had nothing to do with what was happening across the rest of the series.
series stuff
As an example
The amount of time that they slowed down the plot for introducing and re-introducing Ward's heroine subplot felt wasted.
Regularly cutting back to show Harold creeping on people felt kind of pointless when it was already being shown in scenes that did more than that.
+1
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
10 minutes into the first episode and dude sits in the park and listens to Camp Lo?
5/7 perfect show. underrated classics are the way to my heart.
Okay, here's the thing about Danny. I hated him at first, but then I realized why, and have come to appreciate where they're going with him.
Up to Episode 7.
He's like all these fitness guys you see at the gym. He hears about this Iron Fist thing, thinks, "dude, that would be sick, to be Iron Fist; imagine the gainz!!!," and single-mindededly devotes all of his time and energy into earning that status. And he does it, surprising everybody. But it was never about actually fulfilling the duties of the Iron Fist, it was all about meeting all the requirements to become the Iron Fist. You go to a dojo and challenge the master, because that's what you do earn the credit necessary to move up the ranks.
But once he achieves his objective, dude has no idea what to do next, like a dog who finally catches the car. Sure, he knows what he was told about the Iron Fist's duty and whatnot, but his ultimate goal is to defeat mythical badguys. It's like recruiting a U.S. Border Patrol Agent and telling her that her job is to defeat Mictlantecuhtli, Aztec Lord of the Underworld. "I'll get right on that." So he leaves his post and goes home the second the portal opens, because it was never about embracing a culture and a duty with him, it was about doing awesome shit, like another Daniel in The Karate Kid, who learned karate to be a big guy, impress the girl, and beat the bullies. Fulfilling the standards to get a job without actually wanting to do the job or caring about what it entails is a super white American guy thing to do.
He's still a good guy, but he's emotionally stuck at 10 years old when his old life ended. I now understand why they went with a white actor for the character: dude is cultural appropriation personified. He means well, but literally everybody thinks he's an idiot because every inch of his brain is full of what it took to become Iron Fist, or what ten-year-old him thought was important (like that Killah Priest song on his iPod, "Heat of the Moment," aka "more cultural appropriation"). The other characters are either using him, embarrassed of him, or both.
Even Colleen, who is my favorite character by a country mile, gets that he's a super naive dope. When they finally get together, she initiates, and looks amused as hell when he asks if it's okay. "Boy, I just took off my clothes and pulled you on top of me, YES I think it's okay if we have the sex now." Danny missed the part of a millennial upbringing where girls aren't super hung up about making sexual decisions for themselves. The next morning he's stumbling over words, trying to say that it was his first time, and her demeanor says, "duh."
The Meachums start off as fairly stock characters, but I think that they do grow over time. Ward starts as the Futurama 80's guy (he's even got some sort of bone-itis), but the enormous stress involved in keeping his father a secret is enormously telling on him. Joy becomes the real grown-up over time as it's revealed that she's been covering for Ward's fuckups forever. And Harold seems like he's going to be a shadowy manipulator, but quickly reverts to the token evil teammate just flying by the seat of his pants trying to get himself, his children, and his company through the whole affair unscathed. They all see Danny as a means to an end. To Ward, he's the way to keep his father mollified and off his own back. To Joy, he's a moral salve and a PR opportunity. Finally, to Harold, he's the one guy who can save him from The Hand, despite the fact that he's abandoned his duty and is useless to solve any problem that doesn't involve half a loaf of kung fu.
Ultimately the show seems to be about child abuse. Danny gets beaten by monks to make him stronger. Harold disappears from Joy's life and forces Ward to be his cat's paw. The Hand kidnaps children to use against their parents. Colleen is the odd one out, possibly because she hasn't shared her backstory beyond her grandma's mean donkey stew.
Long story short, I don't think this show is as bad as the reviews said. It's telling a different kind of story than the other Marvel Netflix shows, but that's okay. It would be boring if they were all the same. Instead of a Mighty Whitey, this show asks the question, "what did the white man give up to become that good at asian martial arts? Turns out: pretty much everything." I cannot wait to see Luke Cage dismantle Danny in The Defenders when he catches him listening to Wu-Tang Clan. It's going to be solid gold.
I hope that Finn Jones and Mike Colter have good chemistry together, because I really want to see them getting along and having the more humble, self-aware Iron Fist that I like from the comic books.
Long story short, I don't think this show is as bad as the reviews said. It's telling a different kind of story than the other Marvel Netflix shows, but that's okay. It would be boring if they were all the same. Instead of a Mighty Whitey, this show asks the question, "what did the white man give up to become that good at asian martial arts? Turns out: pretty much everything." I cannot wait to see Luke Cage dismantle Danny in The Defenders when he catches him listening to Wu-Tang Clan. It's going to be solid gold.
Gotta quibble a bit here, but white guys can't like the Wu-Tang Clan? I get a lot of the cultural appropriation around hiphop, but I think saying us white folks can't even like it is a bit much.
Side note: I loved Methodman's cameo in Luke Cage.
I think a lot of people are ascribing to racial politics what is really just bad writing.
Danny's neither stupid nor a dick because of his white-dude-ness
He's a stupid dick because the writers need to draw out extremely basic puzzles to fill up entire episodes, and the only way they could think to do so was make most of the cast very very stupid.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
+4
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Long story short, I don't think this show is as bad as the reviews said. It's telling a different kind of story than the other Marvel Netflix shows, but that's okay. It would be boring if they were all the same. Instead of a Mighty Whitey, this show asks the question, "what did the white man give up to become that good at asian martial arts? Turns out: pretty much everything." I cannot wait to see Luke Cage dismantle Danny in The Defenders when he catches him listening to Wu-Tang Clan. It's going to be solid gold.
Gotta quibble a bit here, but white guys can't like the Wu-Tang Clan? I get a lot of the cultural appropriation around hiphop, but I think saying us white folks can't even like it is a bit much.
Side note: I loved Methodman's cameo in Luke Cage.
hell I think the listening to hip hop and the use of hip hop in this show shows the reality of the cultural penetration of hip hop. it is very much mainstream. (i am also reminded of an interview of Snoop Dogg some years ago where he remarked on the fact that pretty much all his shows in Europe had an almost 100% white audience. and that his and Dre's shows in the US also had a lot of white people.)
Posts
My wife literally went "where's his backpack?" after the scene transition. It was weirdly jarring.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
It's not even that the other didn't care. They made the decision that the best play was to be an enormous dick about it, regardless. Which totally fits the character.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
You keep saying "beat up security guards" and I challenge you to rewatch the first episode and that fight scene.
Why would he know about their current situation? He's been missing for 15 years.
"My father died after you disappeared and no one heard anything from you or ever found your body, so I'd expect you to know exactly when he died and all my personal details that you weren't here for"? He says "I'm Danny Rand", not "I'm omniscient".
What he does have is knowledge of your personal history together and is coming forward and immediately telling you stuff from your childhood together. The kind of thing you would ask someone to prove that they are who they say, and he's cutting right to the chase on it and saying it.
You wouldn't consider a threat if a random person got in your car and refused to get out?
Just put yourself in the shoes of some of the people who interacted with Danny. Can you honestly tell me that if someone acted like that towards you, you would just be fine with it?
Because my point was that Danny didn't behave like a normal human being in the way he considers how other people would react to him. It's not just an issue of Danny being naive and not understanding American culture. It's an issue of Danny doing things that would make other people extremely uncomfortable or threatened.
How does Danny showing himself to be violent help his case with the doctor? Not to mention the fact that he did a bunch of illegal stuff before being sent to the mental hospital.
Do you really not see how Danny's actions are portrayed is a problem? Yes, he never went around punching innocent people in the face for no reason. But he does commit crimes and threaten people. The fact that he's naive and didn't understand what he was doing doesn't change the fact that what he did was completely inappropriate and illegal. The show doesn't have Danny learn the simple lesson that just because there is no malicious intent behind an action doesn't mean the action can't be threatening or harmful. They sidestep the issue by making Ward an even bigger asshole who sends people to assassinate him.
You're the one arguing that the Meachums should have taken Danny seriously. So how would the fact that Danny knows nothing about their current situation help convince them that they should trust Danny?
Except he gives none of those details in their first meeting. All he does is repeatedly say that he's Danny Rand. He only gives personal information in his second meeting with Joy, where he broke into her house, and his second meeting with Ward, where he basically carjacks him.
He does give some details when he first sees Joy and Ward. When he learns that their father is dead, he mentions that all of their parents are gone now. And I'm pretty sure he says something about a restaurant that they all used to go to. He was (rightfully so) treated as a hostile crazy person immediately upon getting upstairs, and didn't really have time to give details about their childhood before the security (that were perfectly capable of escorting him out of the building, despite their earlier altercation with him) saw him out. And yeah, he carjacks Ward. He tries to reach out to Joy and Ward individually after failing when talking to them both. At this point he's still holding out hope that one of them will recognize him and he's getting a little desperate.
Yes, he breaks the law. You are absolutely right on that. But is that not par for the course in this kind of show? Every single super hero ever breaks the law (I guess except when they're explicitly sanctioned by the police/government). That Danny doesn't leave a trail of critically injured people in his wake actually sets him apart in this regard, for the better, from most super heroes.
Absolutely, the show has flaws. I'm not even sure if its very good at 3 episodes in. But I don't think its flawed for the same reasons as you.
And the mystic vanishing back pack is clearly one of Danny's Hobo Monk powers.
Episode 1-4ish
His actions that were super bad were breaking into a building he owned, and was certain he would be welcomed at. He only tried breaking in after he was (understandably) refused entry. He then went to check out his child hood home just for nostalgia which is super bad, but I get it. It happened to be Joy's house which makes it creepier, but not by his intent. He then hijacks Ward's car to force him to listen. Ward continues to be a jack ass even after he has to be certain it is Danny because money. Some of his shit is desperate actions, but he literally has no other options. He can't physically prove he is Danny so he goes to extremes because it is super important to him. All of his actions are pretty understandable given that light.
Episode 3ish
That's the problem. It's OK for Danny to be naive and do stupid things. But the show has to portray it as being the wrong thing to do regardless of the intentions behind the action. Danny should learn that what he did was wrong and apologize to the people he may have unintentionally hurt. Instead, they just sidestep the issue by escalating the situation to a ridiculous degree with Ward sending people to kill Danny so he doesn't even have to acknowledge his mistake.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I think I get your problem with him, I'm just having trouble, like many here, understanding why you're drawing the line at some nonviolent crimes as being a bridge too far for a character who exists in a universe that glorifies vigilante violence for entertainment purposes.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
then looks at him and breaks his arm two more times with a pleased expression
i would watch colleen wing, psychopath if netflix choose to air it
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
For real, Colleen is the real main character here
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I think in Danny's mind he is in the right to do those things as a combination of him being an immortal weapon from heaven and it is technically his birthright. Ends justify the means, right makes might, and all that. He has come back to get his birthright and he's gonna make it work and doesn't really care about earthly customs so much because he is right and good.
This is his major character flaw. There are multiple decisions that he makes throughout the series, with an honorable/good objective in mind, that cause massive havoc as a result of the poor methods he uses to accomplish that goal. A conflict or situation occurs -> he looks at what should be the "most good" that can be accomplished -> Danny ignores all conflicting advice or all possible problems and takes the shortest path that will accomplish this "most good" concept in his mind. It basically ruins everyone around him until he learns the lesson.
Also, it seemed a bit weird in the first episode when
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I imagine
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Your spoiler will be explained by the end of the season but in general terms
I kind of wanted Daredevil to show up in episode 13
"So, two people fighting with katana in the rain in the park. Which one is part of The Hand?"
I said the same thing about this show, and I totally meant it, but if they made a for real Heroes For Hire series starring Colleen and Misty, I don't know what I'd do.
Watch the whole damn thing the day it released, for one.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Its made worse by them rushing a lot of good stuff at the end.
They should have tightened up the first 5 episodes and given more room for the last 5. The middle 3 are pretty good, though.
"Who killed my parents " isn't a center. The show just kind of meanders.
All of the other Netflix shows feel like varying degrees of quality cable shows. Iron first feels like an actual abc show, in budget and quality.
But they're not written as part of the growth of the character. Danny doesn't seem to learn anything from those things.
As for the other shows, the violations of rights is done in pursuit of a greater goal. Daredevil does illegal things to stop criminals. Jessica Jones does bad things to stop Kilgrave. Danny broke into Ward's office for personal reasons. And those other shows do actually acknowledge that the characters did messed up things. The relationship between Matt and Foggy completely broke down. Jessica is ridden with self doubt and guilt, she even calls herself a piece of shit.
How far are you into the series?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
They should have cut, like, 70% of the Meechum stuff. The early fights are everyone not really at their best (intentionally and unintentionally), and the best fights are on the back end of the series with some really genuinely great fights around the middle.
I still think there's a lot of promise in the separate elements of the show. I can easily imagine a good version of Iron Fist Season 1 using this general plotline and actors.
Just... Not with this showrunner and writing team.
I kind of liked the Meechum stuff. Ward's actor gave two of the best acting performances in the show
2) When he was sitting on the bench talking to Joy and couldn't tell her what secret he was keeping from her
Both of those were outstanding, imo
Focus the show way more on Danny as a fish out of water. Let Danny and Colleen develop more of a rapport doing normal city shit. Spend more time on Colleen in general. Explore Danny the hard-ass warrior monk and how he feels about being a hard-ass warrior monk. Heck, explore some of Colleen's students and how they feel about this crazy white kung fu dude who's hanging out with their sensei now.
I'd enjoy all of those things a lot more than endless Rand Corp. debates over profit margins.
A lot of the flaws of the early episodes are improved in the later episodes.
Also, someone hire a PR manager for Finn.
I know the fact that him telling everyone he's the Iron Fist is actually a huge fuck up since it revealed
In sort of a strange way, he's an avatar of well-meaning white privilege. And that's where a bunch of his problematic behaviors come from. It's an echo of the comics that I'm finding very interesting.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Yep, he's kind of a fuckup. That's written all over the series.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I agree, and that's why the % wasn't higher. There was some great stuff, but I felt the series as a whole lingered too long on the goings-on at Rand Corp, and dealing with multiple subplots with the Meechums. A good deal of which had nothing to do with what was happening across the rest of the series.
series stuff
The amount of time that they slowed down the plot for introducing and re-introducing Ward's heroine subplot felt wasted.
Regularly cutting back to show Harold creeping on people felt kind of pointless when it was already being shown in scenes that did more than that.
5/7 perfect show. underrated classics are the way to my heart.
Up to Episode 7.
But once he achieves his objective, dude has no idea what to do next, like a dog who finally catches the car. Sure, he knows what he was told about the Iron Fist's duty and whatnot, but his ultimate goal is to defeat mythical badguys. It's like recruiting a U.S. Border Patrol Agent and telling her that her job is to defeat Mictlantecuhtli, Aztec Lord of the Underworld. "I'll get right on that." So he leaves his post and goes home the second the portal opens, because it was never about embracing a culture and a duty with him, it was about doing awesome shit, like another Daniel in The Karate Kid, who learned karate to be a big guy, impress the girl, and beat the bullies. Fulfilling the standards to get a job without actually wanting to do the job or caring about what it entails is a super white American guy thing to do.
He's still a good guy, but he's emotionally stuck at 10 years old when his old life ended. I now understand why they went with a white actor for the character: dude is cultural appropriation personified. He means well, but literally everybody thinks he's an idiot because every inch of his brain is full of what it took to become Iron Fist, or what ten-year-old him thought was important (like that Killah Priest song on his iPod, "Heat of the Moment," aka "more cultural appropriation"). The other characters are either using him, embarrassed of him, or both.
Even Colleen, who is my favorite character by a country mile, gets that he's a super naive dope. When they finally get together, she initiates, and looks amused as hell when he asks if it's okay. "Boy, I just took off my clothes and pulled you on top of me, YES I think it's okay if we have the sex now." Danny missed the part of a millennial upbringing where girls aren't super hung up about making sexual decisions for themselves. The next morning he's stumbling over words, trying to say that it was his first time, and her demeanor says, "duh."
The Meachums start off as fairly stock characters, but I think that they do grow over time. Ward starts as the Futurama 80's guy (he's even got some sort of bone-itis), but the enormous stress involved in keeping his father a secret is enormously telling on him. Joy becomes the real grown-up over time as it's revealed that she's been covering for Ward's fuckups forever. And Harold seems like he's going to be a shadowy manipulator, but quickly reverts to the token evil teammate just flying by the seat of his pants trying to get himself, his children, and his company through the whole affair unscathed. They all see Danny as a means to an end. To Ward, he's the way to keep his father mollified and off his own back. To Joy, he's a moral salve and a PR opportunity. Finally, to Harold, he's the one guy who can save him from The Hand, despite the fact that he's abandoned his duty and is useless to solve any problem that doesn't involve half a loaf of kung fu.
Ultimately the show seems to be about child abuse. Danny gets beaten by monks to make him stronger. Harold disappears from Joy's life and forces Ward to be his cat's paw. The Hand kidnaps children to use against their parents. Colleen is the odd one out, possibly because she hasn't shared her backstory beyond her grandma's mean donkey stew.
Long story short, I don't think this show is as bad as the reviews said. It's telling a different kind of story than the other Marvel Netflix shows, but that's okay. It would be boring if they were all the same. Instead of a Mighty Whitey, this show asks the question, "what did the white man give up to become that good at asian martial arts? Turns out: pretty much everything." I cannot wait to see Luke Cage dismantle Danny in The Defenders when he catches him listening to Wu-Tang Clan. It's going to be solid gold.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Gotta quibble a bit here, but white guys can't like the Wu-Tang Clan? I get a lot of the cultural appropriation around hiphop, but I think saying us white folks can't even like it is a bit much.
Side note: I loved Methodman's cameo in Luke Cage.
Danny's neither stupid nor a dick because of his white-dude-ness
He's a stupid dick because the writers need to draw out extremely basic puzzles to fill up entire episodes, and the only way they could think to do so was make most of the cast very very stupid.
hell I think the listening to hip hop and the use of hip hop in this show shows the reality of the cultural penetration of hip hop. it is very much mainstream. (i am also reminded of an interview of Snoop Dogg some years ago where he remarked on the fact that pretty much all his shows in Europe had an almost 100% white audience. and that his and Dre's shows in the US also had a lot of white people.)