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[Supernatural]: This is why we can't have nice things, Sam.

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    I really didn't think Jeremy Carver, the guy who wrote the best episode of the entire series in Mystery Spot, could possibly be such a fuckup of a showrunner... but here we are.

    They're more concerned with their stupid fucking meta bullshit (which at this point is neither clever nor funny) than with being consistent about character personalities and motivations, about having logical actions instead of shit just happening because we have to get to the next fucking stupid plot point that no one cares about.

    8/10 writers on staff joined during or after season 6 (I'm not even going to give Buckner and Ross-Leming credit for their atrocious Route 666 in season 1).

    No wonder the show is such fucking shit. None of these hacks can remember what made it good in the first place.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    Sam in your avatar is so disappointed in this. So longing. So sad. So smoldering.

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    because Sam remembers the days when he was an actual character who got to speak with the supporting cast and do badass things like decapitate vampires with razor wire and kill all-powerful superdemons with his mind.

    and now the writers make him leave the room every time Dean has a conversation with anybody, and whenever there's an action scene he gets knocked out and tied to a chair.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Well, to be fair, Sam is the damsel in Supernatural.

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    Except he shouldn't be, and it's lazy writing and a disservice to his character to portray him that way.

    The dude is 32 years old, has had just as much training as Dean, survived all kinds of ridiculous shit, and yet they can't fucking find anything for him to do in an action scene except get knocked out and/or tied up. lol ok.

    In the early seasons they almost portrayed him as... casually badass, I guess? Like, in Nightshifter, the dude single-handedly kicks the ass of two SWAT team members and steals their weapons and uniforms without the rest of the team noticing until him and Dean are out of the building. He bested Gordon Walker - the Punisher of hunters - not once, but twice, the second instance being when Gordon was a fucking hulked-out vampire and he decapitated the guy with a coil of razor wire. And on both occasions saved Dean's ass.

    He turns into a fucking badass robo-hunter in Mystery Spot for the four month stretch that Dean is dead (and according to Bobby's phonecall, single-handedly takes out an entire nest of vampires). Then in season 4 he's a darkside beast who killed two of the most powerful demons to exist in the Supernatural universe (who could overpower even angels), and then beat the shit out of Dean.

    Then in season 5, he overcomes a fucking archangel on pure willpower.

    And all through this, he's still the research guy, he's still the geekboy or whatever, but the show never forgot that he's a dangerous badass.

    Now? Fuck, he barely even gets to work the intelligence angle, nevermind doing anything physically awesome.

    It's because these writers are fucking hacks taking their cues from shitty fanfiction.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    We know Reznik.

    We know.

    There can be no meaningful character development because fangirls and fanboys think that the characters can only exist as dark and brooding.

    There can be no meaningful female characters in the series at all because fangirls and fanboys get jealous.

    There can be no meaningful progression besides throwing ever more powerful entities at them because that's all the writers can write.

    I mean, the path they are on now..I full expect Season 10 to be about killing the Abrahamic god who, I don't know, got too into Twilight and turned evil for reasons

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    skeldare wrote: »

    Sorry, but I'm blanking, can someone remind me how last season ended (it's that fucking forgettable now)?
    demon dean?

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    I've never went from love to hate with anything as intensely as I have with Supernatural.

    I used to defend the shit out of this show. Now I won't even buy any DVDs/blu-rays until it's cancelled because I don't want my money to be interpreted as supporting the shit they're pumping out now.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    skeldare wrote: »

    Sorry, but I'm blanking, can someone remind me how last season ended (it's that fucking forgettable now)?
    demon dean?

    Metatrons dead

    First blade apparently turned Dean into a Demon who..chills with Crowley now or something.

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    skeldare wrote: »

    Sorry, but I'm blanking, can someone remind me how last season ended (it's that fucking forgettable now)?
    demon dean?

    Metatrons dead

    First blade apparently turned Dean into a Demon who..chills with Crowley now or something.

    Oh ok
    I'm always a fan if any plot line that gives me more Crowley, but I remember when I used to be on edge all summer wanting to know what happens next (like when Dean went to hell).
    I might need to stop watching the reruns on TNT so I can forget how much better the show used to be.

    LostNinja on
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    MorblitzMorblitz Registered User regular
    I'm thinking about getting back into early supernatural on netflix as I havn't seen it in years.
    I'm thinking I'm going to watch at least until season 4. Season 5 is where I started to actually notice a bit of a going downhill and while I still enjoy the show it's nothing compared to the early stuff. So if I were to try to watch the best and brightest parts of Supernatural, and then stop, is end of season 4 a good call?

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    tbh even though 4 was pretty good, I'd stop at 3 and then you have pure classic SPN without any of the angel bullshit.

    the thing with netflix though is that the music is messed up because of licensing or whatever. so some of the best, classic moments (don't fear the reaper) get kinda ruined.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    MorblitzMorblitz Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    WHAT.


    Ugh.

    Morblitz on
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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Reznik wrote: »
    tbh even though 4 was pretty good, I'd stop at 3 and then you have pure classic SPN without any of the angel bullshit.

    the thing with netflix though is that the music is messed up because of licensing or whatever. so some of the best, classic moments (don't fear the reaper) get kinda ruined.

    Wait what? I haven't watched it there, but I always assumed that since the show bought the rights that it would carry over to DVD and streaming. It really wouldn't be the same without the classic rock.

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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Seasons 1-5 are excellent. From 6 onward it's a straight decline. I'll argue season six has some redeeming moments, and that the forced angst doesn't get overwhelmingly garbage until season eight (season seven has other problems) but the show lost its edge.

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Reznik wrote: »
    tbh even though 4 was pretty good, I'd stop at 3 and then you have pure classic SPN without any of the angel bullshit.

    the thing with netflix though is that the music is messed up because of licensing or whatever. so some of the best, classic moments (don't fear the reaper) get kinda ruined.

    Wait what? I haven't watched it there, but I always assumed that since the show bought the rights that it would carry over to DVD and streaming. It really wouldn't be the same without the classic rock.

    as far as I know, streaming is its own thing. I mean, if the show bought the rights in 05/06/07, the agreements probably didn't cover streaming and I guess they don't think it's worth the cost to negotiate a new agreement or whatever.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Season 9 would have been a lot better if
    The writers would have remembered the boys have had to deal with an Archangel before, Lucifer, and he was an all powerful monster who could only be tricked back into his cage.

    Yet Metatron was supposedly more powerful than an Archangel thanks to the Angel Tablet, and suddenly its all hurr magic knife stabstab

    Yet another example of the writers not having any idea what the word continuity means.

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Season 9 had so much promise; you had angles being forced out of heaven and a civil war amongst demons while cas had lost his angel powers while a douchebag librarian was yucking it up in heaven.

    They must have consulted with Uwe Boll on how to fuck up what should have been at least an interesting season.

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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    skeldare wrote: »

    Sorry, but I'm blanking, can someone remind me how last season ended (it's that fucking forgettable now)?
    demon dean?

    Metatrons dead

    First blade apparently turned Dean into a Demon who..chills with Crowley now or something.

    I thought that
    metatron just ended up in Cass's prison?

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    skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    LostNinja wrote: »
    skeldare wrote: »

    Sorry, but I'm blanking, can someone remind me how last season ended (it's that fucking forgettable now)?
    demon dean?

    Metatrons dead

    First blade apparently turned Dean into a Demon who..chills with Crowley now or something.

    I thought that
    metatron just ended up in Cass's prison?

    No one knows, the writing's that bad.

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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    No, Castiel definitely spared Metatron's life and put him in Gadreel's prison. This was a whole plot point.

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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    No, Castiel definitely spared Metatron's life and put him in Gadreel's prison. This was a whole plot point.

    I thought dean stabbed Metatron with the first knife?

    I guess that's a sign of how bad its got when I don't even give enough of a shit to notice the plot of the season finale.

    Buttcleft on
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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    One meta thing I really dislike about this show is that you ,with a fair degree of certainty, you can tell if a character will live or die or not if they have a certain level of fame
    like this season, did anyone think there was any chance we would see Tammoh Penikett once it was over?
    e:granted Supernatural isn't the only one guilty of this. Dexter is another flagrant offender.

    To be fair, after writing this, all non "planned from start to finish" shows seem to be have this to some degree. It's just it doesn't seem QUITE as prevalent.

    Egos on
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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    One meta thing I really dislike about this show is that you ,with a fair degree of certainty, you can tell if a character will live or die or not if they have a certain level of fame
    like this season, did anyone think there was any chance we would see Tammoh Penikett once it was over?
    e:granted Supernatural isn't the only one guilty of this. Dexter is another flagrant offender.

    To be fair, after writing this, all non "planned from start to finish" shows seem to be have this to some degree. It's just it doesn't seem QUITE as prevalent.

    The biggest problem visa vis death is that it's effectively meaningless; Cas, Dean and Sam have all either been dead or been in circumstances where they should have been dead (E.g. stuck in hell or purgatory).

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    ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    Supernatural trivializing death is one of my biggest fucking annoyances with the show.

    It's like the writers don't understand if you keep hammering on the same point to try and trigger the same reaction literally EVERY FUCKING SEASON, that eventually it all becomes boring and meaningless.

    Brothers fighting? Interesting change to the dynamic in season 4. ANNOYING AS FUCK now since they've been at odds for the past fucking 5 seasons.

    Brothers dying? Dramatic and unexpected in both seasons 2 and 3! Boring as fuck now because whatever they'll handwave their resurrection and there will be no real consequences because the writers have no idea how to follow through with anything.

    Side characters dying? John, no! Ellen, Jo, no! Now? ...Oh, a new character. Countdown until they die. Yep, called it.

    I want Death to show up and just be like "You know what? Fuck all of you. I'm stronger than you and I'm putting the afterlife on lockdown. No more resurrections fucking with my natural order, you fucking fucksticks."

    Of course, then the writers will have no idea what to do for a season finale that doesn't involve a brother dying and/or going to some wacky afterlife location.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    I'm a little drunk, but I think the main problem has been the show applies the wrong formula.

    When the show was good, the formula was procedural monster hunt + some angst + occasional main plot development.

    Now it is constant main "plot development" + procedural angst + some monster hunting.

    Like, there was a time Dean and Sam were professionals, who could stow their shit long enough to get the job done, and it was only Extremely Major Strategy Disagreements that led to their infighting (use demon blood powers vs. no use demon blood powers).

    There was a time we had to see them as professionals because they were in a dangerous job they had to be clever to survive at.

    It's like, the internal logic of the setting and character has been abandoned to a purely fan-service meta-logic of "dramatic television."

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    ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Reznik wrote: »
    Supernatural trivializing death is one of my biggest fucking annoyances with the show.

    It's like the writers don't understand if you keep hammering on the same point to try and trigger the same reaction literally EVERY FUCKING SEASON, that eventually it all becomes boring and meaningless.

    Brothers fighting? Interesting change to the dynamic in season 4. ANNOYING AS FUCK now since they've been at odds for the past fucking 5 seasons.

    Brothers dying? Dramatic and unexpected in both seasons 2 and 3! Boring as fuck now because whatever they'll handwave their resurrection and there will be no real consequences because the writers have no idea how to follow through with anything.

    Side characters dying? John, no! Ellen, Jo, no! Now? ...Oh, a new character. Countdown until they die. Yep, called it.

    I want Death to show up and just be like "You know what? Fuck all of you. I'm stronger than you and I'm putting the afterlife on lockdown. No more resurrections fucking with my natural order, you fucking fucksticks."

    Of course, then the writers will have no idea what to do for a season finale that doesn't involve a brother dying and/or going to some wacky afterlife location.

    I am for anything that brings Death back.

    Because he is a snarky, classy motherfucker and if he wasn't a reality warping god I'd want him on the show more regularly.

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    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Julian Riching is a straight pimp.

    What I think would have been a really good Idea for the show would have been focusing on the brothers trying to establish a legacy. Have dean start organizing, training and leading hunters while Sam re-establishes the men of letters so that they have a team of smart guys who can do research and magic and everything else.

    Because frankly, the setting feels way too small with how the Winchesters and their mascot are the only ones who make any sort of impact on the world.

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Julian Riching is a straight pimp.

    What I think would have been a really good Idea for the show would have been focusing on the brothers trying to establish a legacy. Have dean start organizing, training and leading hunters while Sam re-establishes the men of letters so that they have a team of smart guys who can do research and magic and everything else.

    Because frankly, the setting feels way too small with how the Winchesters and their mascot are the only ones who make any sort of impact on the world.

    That's what I thought they were going to do when they first discovered and started living in the men of letters base. By having episodes where they just focused on some of the newer members going out "saving people, hunting things" they could have gone back to their horror movie of the week roots, which I think we all agree was when the show was at its best. Back when the brothers had a hard time with random ghosts or monsters, and taking on a demon was nigh impossible. Back before the only thing that gave them a hard time on a case was their own stupid infighting.

    Come to think of it, why the fuck wasn't that the spinoff instead of monster mob families (one of which was a family of shifters, which the earlier, better seasons of Supernatural had already canonized as being a mutation, not a genetic thing)?

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    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    6-10 could have been about building a legacy, shaping the world, etc, instead of repetitive angst and carbon-copy-cosmic-calamities. 1-5 is about the Winchesters finding their place in the world, which is a very youthful storyline. As they get older, maturity demands they begin to place larger concerns (family, career, etc) over their personal goals.

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    DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    a
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Reznik wrote: »
    Supernatural trivializing death is one of my biggest fucking annoyances with the show.

    It's like the writers don't understand if you keep hammering on the same point to try and trigger the same reaction literally EVERY FUCKING SEASON, that eventually it all becomes boring and meaningless.

    Brothers fighting? Interesting change to the dynamic in season 4. ANNOYING AS FUCK now since they've been at odds for the past fucking 5 seasons.

    Brothers dying? Dramatic and unexpected in both seasons 2 and 3! Boring as fuck now because whatever they'll handwave their resurrection and there will be no real consequences because the writers have no idea how to follow through with anything.

    Side characters dying? John, no! Ellen, Jo, no! Now? ...Oh, a new character. Countdown until they die. Yep, called it.

    I want Death to show up and just be like "You know what? Fuck all of you. I'm stronger than you and I'm putting the afterlife on lockdown. No more resurrections fucking with my natural order, you fucking fucksticks."

    Of course, then the writers will have no idea what to do for a season finale that doesn't involve a brother dying and/or going to some wacky afterlife location.

    I am for anything that brings Death back.

    Because he is a snarky, classy motherfucker and if he wasn't a reality warping god I'd want him on the show more regularly.

    When they had that reaper locked up I though the end game in the conversation was 'we dont have to do anything, because your boss doesn't like employees getting out of line', then death shows up and has a small rant 'the only thing that gets me angrier than these two constantly being able to summon me at their will and delicious fast food is you doing your job wrong'. He flashes the reaper out of existance, and then kind of points his finger at the boys and is like 'neeeeeeeeeeeyahhh you are supposed to stop this but this is an exception and you get away with this yet again you assholes'.Which would have been amazing. But no, they just kill the reaper. no biggie.

    DiannaoChong on
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    MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Julian Riching is a straight pimp.

    What I think would have been a really good Idea for the show would have been focusing on the brothers trying to establish a legacy. Have dean start organizing, training and leading hunters while Sam re-establishes the men of letters so that they have a team of smart guys who can do research and magic and everything else.

    Because frankly, the setting feels way too small with how the Winchesters and their mascot are the only ones who make any sort of impact on the world.

    That's what I thought they were going to do when they first discovered and started living in the men of letters base. By having episodes where they just focused on some of the newer members going out "saving people, hunting things" they could have gone back to their horror movie of the week roots, which I think we all agree was when the show was at its best. Back when the brothers had a hard time with random ghosts or monsters, and taking on a demon was nigh impossible. Back before the only thing that gave them a hard time on a case was their own stupid infighting.

    Come to think of it, why the fuck wasn't that the spinoff instead of monster mob families (one of which was a family of shifters, which the earlier, better seasons of Supernatural had already canonized as being a mutation, not a genetic thing)?

    An entire season of monster-of-the-week episodes.... my god it would be glorious...

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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    I'm a little drunk, but I think the main problem has been the show applies the wrong formula.

    When the show was good, the formula was procedural monster hunt + some angst + occasional main plot development.

    Now it is constant main "plot development" + procedural angst + some monster hunting.

    I agree the show as at it it's best when it stuck to the above formula, but I think a huge problem with the seasons that have a more "overarching plot" is how often the brothers go off to fight a dragon or a unicorn all while Armageddon is looming overhead. For me at least, the angst and the little detours created quite a bit of dissonance. With the first two seasons (I forget when the gates of hell were opened) it worked because the stakes weren't that high, but as they became higher it's like "wtf are you guys doing playing FBI and hunting a fat sucking vampire? you should be hunting down Cthulhu in an American Psycho suit!" .

    Whenever the finale comes around, I fear it will pull a Dexter (those who've watched know what I mean). Probably something that would just be "another resurrection" or whatever suddenly becomes important for some arbitrary reason (even though they've died like 10+ times) and causes everything to come to an end in some nonsensical way.

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    I'm a little drunk, but I think the main problem has been the show applies the wrong formula.

    When the show was good, the formula was procedural monster hunt + some angst + occasional main plot development.

    Now it is constant main "plot development" + procedural angst + some monster hunting.

    I agree the show as at it it's best when it stuck to the above formula, but I think a huge problem with the seasons that have a more "overarching plot" is how often the brothers go off to fight a dragon or a unicorn all while Armageddon is looming overhead. For me at least, the angst and the little detours created quite a bit of dissonance. With the first two seasons (I forget when the gates of hell were opened) it worked because the stakes weren't that high, but as they became higher it's like "wtf are you guys doing playing FBI and hunting a fat sucking vampire? you should be hunting down Cthulhu in an American Psycho suit!" .

    Whenever the finale comes around, I fear it will pull a Dexter (those who've watched know what I mean). Probably something that would just be "another resurrection" or whatever suddenly becomes important for some arbitrary reason (even though they've died like 10+ times) and causes everything to come to an end in some nonsensical way.

    The problem is that they aren't good at season long plots. At least for me the overarching plots haven't been strong enough to hold my attention since Sam jumped into the cage in season 5 or 6 (whichever it was). Sometimes they have a lot of potential, like the first blade this season, but they lack any follow through (though I guess that particular one might have just been a set up for next season even if it was introduced at the start of last season). The problem for me this season was that they just had too many season long things going on (first blade, the fallen angels, Metatron, the civil war in hell, etc.) with little to no progress on any of them until the finale if even then. We found out that Kevin and the others that were dieing were locked out of heaven, and then that was hardly ever mentioned again, with no visible fall out.

    I personally love the side track, one off episodes, and they are the main thing that keeps me watching the show. I can hand wave away them going on a ghost hung while the world is ending, because to me those episodes are drastically more compelling than whatever they have going on in the overarching plot.

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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    There's been a ton of potential in the big-season plots, but never really delivered on. Like the Leviathan are fine in concept, but Dick Roman is awful.

    The monster of the weeks continued to be occasionally good up to season seven.

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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    There's been a ton of potential in the big-season plots, but never really delivered on. Like the Leviathan are fine in concept, but Dick Roman is awful.

    Wait you liked the idea of big bads whose main goal was to turn humans into happy meals , but you didn't like this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUTF0zosevo

    Otherwise I agree re: potential

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    skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Man Dick Roman was great, just completely wasted.

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    HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    Man every villain pretty much since Yellow Eyes was great, just completely wasted.

    Seriously, this show is the master of setting up great pieces before shitting all over them. Eve? Naomi/Bartholomew? Dick Roman? Lucifer? Abbadon? Raphael? I could go on...

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    They sure did get a lot of play out of his name being "Dick."

    Heartlash wrote: »
    Man every villain pretty much since Yellow Eyes was great, just completely wasted.

    Seriously, this show is the master of setting up great pieces before shitting all over them. Eve? Naomi/Bartholomew? Dick Roman? Lucifer? Abbadon? Raphael? I could go on...

    As great as the actor was, Metatron still kinda sucked. Abbadon on the other hand might have been a less terrible villain if they had a better actress playing her...and if they had actually made her a big villain rather than devoting like half of three episodes to that plotline, or at least mentioned it a few times in between.

    LostNinja on
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