How well does any well equipped armed force do against hit and run tactics? The answer is: not well. Look at current global confilcts. Now, I'm ignoring the Legion base camp (yeah, it has to sit there not moving since it's a RPG and you as the player need to be able to find the damn thing).
"Hit-and-Run" may have been a bad way to describe it. Sure, in conventional warfare, you've got to give the edge to guerilla tactics over a conventional standing army. Small forces can use unconventional warfare to wreak absolute havoc on enemy supply lines and can really smash morale as well. Again, I can totally see how the Legion is a threat to the people of Mojave, and to isolated NCR outposts every now and then, but I simply can't see how they're a threat to the NCR as a whole. I can't imagine them making a serious push for the Hoover Dam -- it's simply too fortified a position for a tribe like the Legion to overcome.
I think the main issue here is working the story around engine limitations - I played a Legion character my first time through and they make it clear to you that the bulk of the army is 'on its way'. The situation seems the same with the NCR - 'the rangers are awesome and they'll be here soon' Both sides are essentially waiting for their armies to get to Vegas before they make the hard push.
NCR controls California and parts of Nevada. Based on old Van Buren lore plus the info in the game, it can be inferred that Caesar controls Arizona, most of Colorado, and apparently has pushed east of Texas.
Unfortunately, a battle that epic would probably make Gamebryo shit itself, so in the interest of verisimilitude, I posit that the idea in NV is that we are seeing the frontline scout forces of two gigantic armies. Caesar is like a god-king, so he has to be at the forefront of the push.
Additionally, they make it clear that even though the Legion is a slave army, their training is brutal and they have little to no modern medical care. (Not to mention ranking up the hierarchy improves your station in life, which in a slave army is a significant motivator). Anyone working for the legion beyond the recruit-level has probably experienced living conditions harsher than most of the battles they've fought, and while they don't portray it well in the gameplay, Legionaries are supposed to be battle-hardened, bullet-eating-ingot-shitting 100% badasses who have seen what happens to their companions who fear death.
The NCR, while also a large conscript army, believes in the notion of human rights. Their recruits are green as green can be according to the leadership present at the camps, and I feel like it was mentioned somewhere that they only get about 2 weeks of training before being sent east. But the recruits aren't going to be crucified as an example if they wash out. The Legionaries are motivated in a way that the NCR aren't.
This can all be inferred from info available, and I may be wrong. There are lots of tactical considerations I realize I've ignored completely. But the crux of these narrative issues seems to be an excess of exposition. They did a lot of telling, and very little showing. There's a dissonance between what they tell you in-game about the Legion and how they meant to be understood in the lore.
Alright, I got a problem regarding Veronica, or rather a bug.
Earlier I was doing some stuff in the casinos, thus being stripped of my weapons several times. Veronica of course was stripped of her weapon too..after I left The Strip, I noticed that she wasn't wearing her Power Fist anymore, and instead was using some kind of knife. The Power Fist is neither in her nor my inventory, and I can't unequip that knife she's using either. I tried buying another Power First, but she doesn't want to equip that one either.
Help
How well does any well equipped armed force do against hit and run tactics? The answer is: not well. Look at current global confilcts. Now, I'm ignoring the Legion base camp (yeah, it has to sit there not moving since it's a RPG and you as the player need to be able to find the damn thing).
"Hit-and-Run" may have been a bad way to describe it. Sure, in conventional warfare, you've got to give the edge to guerilla tactics over a conventional standing army. Small forces can use unconventional warfare to wreak absolute havoc on enemy supply lines and can really smash morale as well. Again, I can totally see how the Legion is a threat to the people of Mojave, and to isolated NCR outposts every now and then, but I simply can't see how they're a threat to the NCR as a whole. I can't imagine them making a serious push for the Hoover Dam -- it's simply too fortified a position for a tribe like the Legion to overcome.
I think the main issue here is working the story around engine limitations - I played a Legion character my first time through and they make it clear to you that the bulk of the army is 'on its way'. The situation seems the same with the NCR - 'the rangers are awesome and they'll be here soon' Both sides are essentially waiting for their armies to get to Vegas before they make the hard push.
NCR controls California and parts of Nevada. Based on old Van Buren lore plus the info in the game, it can be inferred that Caesar controls Arizona, most of Colorado, and apparently has pushed east of Texas.
Unfortunately, a battle that epic would probably make Gamebryo shit itself, so in the interest of verisimilitude, I posit that the idea in NV is that we are seeing the frontline scout forces of two gigantic armies. Caesar is like a god-king, so he has to be at the forefront of the push.
Additionally, they make it clear that even though the Legion is a slave army, their training is brutal and they have little to no modern medical care. (Not to mention ranking up the hierarchy improves your station in life, which in a slave army is a significant motivator). Anyone working for the legion beyond the recruit-level has probably experienced living conditions harsher than most of the battles they've fought, and while they don't portray it well in the gameplay, Legionaries are supposed to be battle-hardened, bullet-eating-ingot-shitting 100% badasses who have seen what happens to their companions who fear death.
The NCR, while also a large conscript army, believes in the notion of human rights. Their recruits are green as green can be according to the leadership present at the camps, and I feel like it was mentioned somewhere that they only get about 2 weeks of training before being sent east. But the recruits aren't going to be crucified as an example if they wash out. The Legionaries are motivated in a way that the NCR aren't.
This can all be inferred from info available, and I may be wrong. There are lots of tactical considerations I realize I've ignored completely. But the crux of these narrative issues seems to be an excess of exposition. They did a lot of telling, and very little showing. There's a dissonance between what they tell you in-game about the Legion and how they meant to be understood in the lore.
It seems reasonable that the legion could hold their own against the NCR rank and file or break them in Nevada, but would probably fail miserably in an attempted invasion of California given the NCR has around a hundred times as many people
Did anyone else annihilate Snuffles the molerat when they got to the town south of The Strip? Just kind of went JESUS and hit him with the incinerator. Oops.
I like how there seems to actually be some challenge early on. I anticipate I'll become a god when I get past level 15 but in the meantime, I'm having to make decisions.
Anyone running an unarmed character? My current playthrough has focused on Melee and disregarded unarmed, but it seems all the cool "melee" perks involve unarmed skill.
Also, I've decided the devs pretty much want you to follow the main storyline quest, siding with NCR, and making your way around the loop to New Vegas before you venture out on your own.
As evidence I present my "Fuck NCR" playthrough breaking the game, and the fact that going anywhere off that beaten path
from Goodsprings -> Primm -> Mojave outpost -> Nipton -> Novac -> Boulder City -> New Vegas
results in running into content that instantly melts your face.
Did anyone else annihilate Snuffles the molerat when they got to the town south of The Strip? Just kind of went JESUS and hit him with the incinerator. Oops.
I was fully planning to ditch Boone and go looking for the Legion until reading this thread. Did anyone have a really good experience with them? From what people are saying here, it sounds like joining them shuts you off from a lot of the game.
I was fully planning to ditch Boone and go looking for the Legion until reading this thread. Did anyone have a really good experience with them? From what people are saying here, it sounds like joining them shuts you off from a lot of the game.
You can get plenty of quests from them, you just have to get to a certain point in the story (when you get to their main camp) before it really opens up, whereas the NCR quests can be done any time.
Anyone running an unarmed character? My current playthrough has focused on Melee and disregarded unarmed, but it seems all the cool "melee" perks involve unarmed skill.
Also, I've decided the devs pretty much want you to follow the main storyline quest, siding with NCR, and making your way around the loop to New Vegas before you venture out on your own.
As evidence I present my "Fuck NCR" playthrough breaking the game, and the fact that going anywhere off that beaten path
from Goodsprings -> Primm -> Mojave outpost -> Nipton -> Novac -> Boulder City -> New Vegas
results in running into content that instantly melts your face.
Unarmed has been TREMENDOUSLY buffed from FO3 with a bunch of new perks and weapons. As you put points into it you can do special VATS strikes (Cross/uppercut which I believe do the same damage but cost less AP) and you can also learn non-VATS special moves that are incredibly powerful. Plus, you can knock dudes out with boxing gloves and then drop dynamite on them.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I was fully planning to ditch Boone and go looking for the Legion until reading this thread. Did anyone have a really good experience with them? From what people are saying here, it sounds like joining them shuts you off from a lot of the game.
...Well, yeah, the Legion are pretty big douches and will make quite a few people hostile too you, though I mean as long as you don't go around decked out in the full armor you should be all right.
That being said, the Legion quests are probably better reserved late game.
Not that I would ever join them since I'm too busy killing them.
I was fully planning to ditch Boone and go looking for the Legion until reading this thread. Did anyone have a really good experience with them? From what people are saying here, it sounds like joining them shuts you off from a lot of the game.
...Well, yeah, the Legion are pretty big douches and will make quite a few people hostile too you, though I mean as long as you don't go around decked out in the full armor you should be all right.
That being said, the Legion quests are probably better reserved late game.
Not that I would ever join them since I'm too busy killing them.
They provide a ready supply of lever action shotguns and .44 revolvers.
Anyone running an unarmed character? My current playthrough has focused on Melee and disregarded unarmed, but it seems all the cool "melee" perks involve unarmed skill.
I am, though I ended up leveling Melee as well to qualify for some of the more interesting perks. It's a surprisingly effective build. I tend to try and pick up additional DT at every opportunity (Toughness x2, Stonewall, DT Implant, etc) to help close the gap with ranged enemies, and it takes a whole hell of a lot to get me worried, even on Hardcore.
Cazadores and Deathclaws still stick it to me, but you'll have that.
I was fully planning to ditch Boone and go looking for the Legion until reading this thread. Did anyone have a really good experience with them? From what people are saying here, it sounds like joining them shuts you off from a lot of the game.
...Well, yeah, the Legion are pretty big douches and will make quite a few people hostile too you, though I mean as long as you don't go around decked out in the full armor you should be all right.
That being said, the Legion quests are probably better reserved late game.
Not that I would ever join them since I'm too busy killing them.
Plus, too many of your followers whine and bitch about the Legion.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
Yeah. I mean, basically as far as the Legion goes, your companions either hate them or don't really like them but don't say much about it.
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
This is probably an elementary questions but if you sneak attack people and kill them do you get negative rep with the faction you killed? Cause Boone and I want to go Big Centurion Hunting.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
Melee is only lackluster because the selection isn't that great.
I have yet to see anyone with a Shishkebab(though I just found out I can buy them in the wikia and I will do that) and the unique Bumper sword(my favorite melee weapon) is only obtainable endgame...which sucks since it does twice as much damage as the Bumper Sword and has an additional DPS of 2 points/sec for 10 seconds.
Really, I wish they would have kept Schematics in the game, don't know why they took most of those out.
Additionally, they make it clear that even though the Legion is a slave army, their training is brutal and they have little to no modern medical care. (Not to mention ranking up the hierarchy improves your station in life, which in a slave army is a significant motivator). Anyone working for the legion beyond the recruit-level has probably experienced living conditions harsher than most of the battles they've fought, and while they don't portray it well in the gameplay, Legionaries are supposed to be battle-hardened, bullet-eating-ingot-shitting 100% badasses who have seen what happens to their companions who fear death.
The NCR, while also a large conscript army, believes in the notion of human rights. Their recruits are green as green can be according to the leadership present at the camps, and I feel like it was mentioned somewhere that they only get about 2 weeks of training before being sent east. But the recruits aren't going to be crucified as an example if they wash out. The Legionaries are motivated in a way that the NCR aren't.
Your explanation re: technical limitations is excellent, but I wanted to address this point: Despite people's intuition to the contrary, that sort of training is actually terrible for making good armies. The ideal training is moderately difficult but builds up the trainees so that they are competent, motivated, and have the self-esteem to perform well in a combat environment. When training brutalizes recruits you end up with huge issues that are amplified with a lack of medical treatment.
The medical treatment issue also vastly affects readiness at all stages. It results in fewer viable troops coming from training, more and more severe casualties at the front, and a lack of eyewear, which significantly impacts marksmanship (seriously, the impact of every soldier having corrected vision and training to engage at hundreds of meters cannot be overstated).
That said, the Legion does have elite troops with anti-material rifles, so they do have at least some equipment to help counteract superior NCR tech like vertibirds.
Hmm, people seem to have a problem with getting to Red Rock Canyon.
You can get there by going from Spring Mt. Ranch State Park, which is slightly NW of Bonnie Springs. Bonnie Springs is West of Vault 19. You'll be passing through a plain, with some destroyed houses.
Also,
You can't go Pro-Legion from the start, there's a certain point in the game where an emissary from Caesar approaches you and invites you into The Fort. Until then, sidequests.
Alright, I got a problem regarding Veronica, or rather a bug.
Earlier I was doing some stuff in the casinos, thus being stripped of my weapons several times. Veronica of course was stripped of her weapon too..after I left The Strip, I noticed that she wasn't wearing her Power Fist anymore, and instead was using some kind of knife. The Power Fist is neither in her nor my inventory, and I can't unequip that knife she's using either. I tried buying another Power First, but she doesn't want to equip that one either.
Help
Bumping this..come on guys, anyone can help me?
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jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
For reals, the legion may as well be Sardaukar in how thier training is described and depicted for the most part.
NCR goons who don't want to even be fighting aren't going to hold up to sardaukar.
Not to mention that some NCR veteran was talking about their battles with the brotherhood. Even though the brotherhood was outnumbered over 100 to 1 they massacred the NCR troopers due to better gear and far superior training/discipline. It was finally the overwhelming numbers that caused them to retreat. I agree, 5 dudes with assault rifles can hold their ground against a hundred sword wielding fools but most of the legionaries I come across are well equipped with firearms.
Alright, I got a problem regarding Veronica, or rather a bug.
Earlier I was doing some stuff in the casinos, thus being stripped of my weapons several times. Veronica of course was stripped of her weapon too..after I left The Strip, I noticed that she wasn't wearing her Power Fist anymore, and instead was using some kind of knife. The Power Fist is neither in her nor my inventory, and I can't unequip that knife she's using either. I tried buying another Power First, but she doesn't want to equip that one either.
Help
Bumping this..come on guys, anyone can help me?
Unfortunately, this stuff is pretty common at the moment. The only real fix is going back to an earlier save, before the problems started. I kept getting loads of this with Boone.
Alright, I got a problem regarding Veronica, or rather a bug.
Earlier I was doing some stuff in the casinos, thus being stripped of my weapons several times. Veronica of course was stripped of her weapon too..after I left The Strip, I noticed that she wasn't wearing her Power Fist anymore, and instead was using some kind of knife. The Power Fist is neither in her nor my inventory, and I can't unequip that knife she's using either. I tried buying another Power First, but she doesn't want to equip that one either.
Help
Bumping this..come on guys, anyone can help me?
What system are you playing on?
Edit: But yeah, Veronica is one of the buggiest companions at the moment.
Alright, I got a problem regarding Veronica, or rather a bug.
Earlier I was doing some stuff in the casinos, thus being stripped of my weapons several times. Veronica of course was stripped of her weapon too..after I left The Strip, I noticed that she wasn't wearing her Power Fist anymore, and instead was using some kind of knife. The Power Fist is neither in her nor my inventory, and I can't unequip that knife she's using either. I tried buying another Power First, but she doesn't want to equip that one either.
Help
Bumping this..come on guys, anyone can help me?
What system are you playing on?
PC.
My only earlier save is 5 hours back, and I'm NOT gonna lose all that.
Posts
I think the main issue here is working the story around engine limitations - I played a Legion character my first time through and they make it clear to you that the bulk of the army is 'on its way'. The situation seems the same with the NCR - 'the rangers are awesome and they'll be here soon' Both sides are essentially waiting for their armies to get to Vegas before they make the hard push.
NCR controls California and parts of Nevada. Based on old Van Buren lore plus the info in the game, it can be inferred that Caesar controls Arizona, most of Colorado, and apparently has pushed east of Texas.
Unfortunately, a battle that epic would probably make Gamebryo shit itself, so in the interest of verisimilitude, I posit that the idea in NV is that we are seeing the frontline scout forces of two gigantic armies. Caesar is like a god-king, so he has to be at the forefront of the push.
Additionally, they make it clear that even though the Legion is a slave army, their training is brutal and they have little to no modern medical care. (Not to mention ranking up the hierarchy improves your station in life, which in a slave army is a significant motivator). Anyone working for the legion beyond the recruit-level has probably experienced living conditions harsher than most of the battles they've fought, and while they don't portray it well in the gameplay, Legionaries are supposed to be battle-hardened, bullet-eating-ingot-shitting 100% badasses who have seen what happens to their companions who fear death.
The NCR, while also a large conscript army, believes in the notion of human rights. Their recruits are green as green can be according to the leadership present at the camps, and I feel like it was mentioned somewhere that they only get about 2 weeks of training before being sent east. But the recruits aren't going to be crucified as an example if they wash out. The Legionaries are motivated in a way that the NCR aren't.
This can all be inferred from info available, and I may be wrong. There are lots of tactical considerations I realize I've ignored completely. But the crux of these narrative issues seems to be an excess of exposition. They did a lot of telling, and very little showing. There's a dissonance between what they tell you in-game about the Legion and how they meant to be understood in the lore.
Earlier I was doing some stuff in the casinos, thus being stripped of my weapons several times. Veronica of course was stripped of her weapon too..after I left The Strip, I noticed that she wasn't wearing her Power Fist anymore, and instead was using some kind of knife. The Power Fist is neither in her nor my inventory, and I can't unequip that knife she's using either. I tried buying another Power First, but she doesn't want to equip that one either.
Help
It seems reasonable that the legion could hold their own against the NCR rank and file or break them in Nevada, but would probably fail miserably in an attempted invasion of California given the NCR has around a hundred times as many people
NCR goons who don't want to even be fighting aren't going to hold up to sardaukar.
The legion uses plenty of guns. It's only the highest-ranking officers that exclusively use melee.
Just try fighting some legionary assassins, you'll see how much trouble they have filling you with lead when it's the most efficient option.
You killed Snuffles? You monster!
Also, I've decided the devs pretty much want you to follow the main storyline quest, siding with NCR, and making your way around the loop to New Vegas before you venture out on your own.
As evidence I present my "Fuck NCR" playthrough breaking the game, and the fact that going anywhere off that beaten path
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
3DS: 1521-4165-5907
PS3: KayleSolo
Live: Kayle Solo
WiiU: KayleSolo
Because I'm not seeing must point in raising Charisma too much.
You can get plenty of quests from them, you just have to get to a certain point in the story (when you get to their main camp) before it really opens up, whereas the NCR quests can be done any time.
So I guess I'll go out into the wastes and explore some, since I'm still a couple levels away from the 30 achievement.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Unarmed has been TREMENDOUSLY buffed from FO3 with a bunch of new perks and weapons. As you put points into it you can do special VATS strikes (Cross/uppercut which I believe do the same damage but cost less AP) and you can also learn non-VATS special moves that are incredibly powerful. Plus, you can knock dudes out with boxing gloves and then drop dynamite on them.
...Well, yeah, the Legion are pretty big douches and will make quite a few people hostile too you, though I mean as long as you don't go around decked out in the full armor you should be all right.
That being said, the Legion quests are probably better reserved late game.
Not that I would ever join them since I'm too busy killing them.
This ensures their demise.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I am, though I ended up leveling Melee as well to qualify for some of the more interesting perks. It's a surprisingly effective build. I tend to try and pick up additional DT at every opportunity (Toughness x2, Stonewall, DT Implant, etc) to help close the gap with ranged enemies, and it takes a whole hell of a lot to get me worried, even on Hardcore.
Cazadores and Deathclaws still stick it to me, but you'll have that.
Plus, too many of your followers whine and bitch about the Legion.
XBL: GamingFreak5514
PSN: GamingFreak1234
It's a shame because I really wanted melee skill to give me something like Book of Eli, but all I got was a schoolgirl flailfest.
Maybe with a WHOOOOOOLE lot of Sneak skill it would be fun.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
I have yet to see anyone with a Shishkebab(though I just found out I can buy them in the wikia and I will do that) and the unique Bumper sword(my favorite melee weapon) is only obtainable endgame...which sucks since it does twice as much damage as the Bumper Sword and has an additional DPS of 2 points/sec for 10 seconds.
Really, I wish they would have kept Schematics in the game, don't know why they took most of those out.
You ever get your hands on a Bumper Sword, pal? That blows the "lack-luster" argument to hell.
XBL: GamingFreak5514
PSN: GamingFreak1234
Your explanation re: technical limitations is excellent, but I wanted to address this point: Despite people's intuition to the contrary, that sort of training is actually terrible for making good armies. The ideal training is moderately difficult but builds up the trainees so that they are competent, motivated, and have the self-esteem to perform well in a combat environment. When training brutalizes recruits you end up with huge issues that are amplified with a lack of medical treatment.
The medical treatment issue also vastly affects readiness at all stages. It results in fewer viable troops coming from training, more and more severe casualties at the front, and a lack of eyewear, which significantly impacts marksmanship (seriously, the impact of every soldier having corrected vision and training to engage at hundreds of meters cannot be overstated).
That said, the Legion does have elite troops with anti-material rifles, so they do have at least some equipment to help counteract superior NCR tech like vertibirds.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
[LUCK 7] Ice Cream
"Thank you sir, have a nice day."
That wins so hard.
XBL: GamingFreak5514
PSN: GamingFreak1234
Bumping this..come on guys, anyone can help me?
Not to mention that some NCR veteran was talking about their battles with the brotherhood. Even though the brotherhood was outnumbered over 100 to 1 they massacred the NCR troopers due to better gear and far superior training/discipline. It was finally the overwhelming numbers that caused them to retreat. I agree, 5 dudes with assault rifles can hold their ground against a hundred sword wielding fools but most of the legionaries I come across are well equipped with firearms.
Unfortunately, this stuff is pretty common at the moment. The only real fix is going back to an earlier save, before the problems started. I kept getting loads of this with Boone.
So, so satisfying, though the canonical ending will probably be favouring an NCR victory.
What system are you playing on?
Edit: But yeah, Veronica is one of the buggiest companions at the moment.
PC.
My only earlier save is 5 hours back, and I'm NOT gonna lose all that.
These ponces are Sardaukar? Would they kill the NCR with laughter? Or fresh bread?