It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
So what part do you think is trivializing? The response comic?
My interpretation from the art and the words, it looks like the Gabe character looks just fucking ridiculous like he has a desperate desire to not be thought of as being pro rape, while the Tycho character looks just worn down as the more jaded character. In context of Gabe and Tycho, Jerry and Mike, and the history surrounding the whole endeavor, it makes sense.
If they are trivializing anything, I think they are trivializing the idea that the previous comic might in some way lead to rape. Since we don't have access to their email accounts it's hard to say what they were, for sure, replying to.
Jerry, as he stated in a podcast a couple years back, has a long standing history of visiting feminist blogs, and has stated that his wife is very involved in that culture. Dealing with these people probably isn't that far out of his wheelhouse.
I wouldn't wear either of those things under any circumstance, a photo of me wearing one would cost me my job and be really hard to explain to the majority of people
I guess I'm trying to suggest that edgy humour is consistent with an inclusive community - at minimum exercising basic social skills and some empathy for people with a different experience. I'm sure a serious critic of the various evils in the world would have more to say, but it riles me to no end to see the pattern:
RAGEGUY: Dammit why are those irrational bitches treading on my right to do as I please
RAGEGUY2: YA, they should go make me a sammich
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
Yes, but it's not trivializing rape. It's faux concern about the idea that a comic not about rape could contribute to rape culture.
They are mocking the idea that there comic has anything to do with rape.
And they are right. Because the first comic has nothing to do with rape.
"Ha ha! You silly rape victims! We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape! Now I have to go encourage people to rape, because I'm such a rape promoter! Ha ha!" - Trivializing rape.
I think he's using sarcasm in the form of "Fuck this shit. People are calling me a rape apologist. Fuck you person who doesn't know me." It seemed more exasperated to me than anything. If a person who is a victim of rape is calling someone a rape apologist if they are not a rape apologist is still not a good move.
Basically, I can see where he's coming from.
There's no other way to reasonably interpret it. He's mocking the sheer stupidity of the accusation with sarcasm.
I wouldn't wear either of those things under any circumstance, a photo of me wearing one would cost me my job and be really hard to explain to the majority of people
Christ I couldn't even wear a "Rogues do it from behind" T-shirt (which... does that one promote rape culture or just anal sex culture? given that rogues are known for ambushing and whatnot?)
Where do you work that a photo of you wearing a silly t-shirt can get you fired?
And just in case you actually don't know, the rogue phrase is a reference to how rogues (and other melee classes) in WoW need to attack from behind creatures for maximum damage potential.
Jerry, as he stated in a podcast a couple years back, has a long standing history of visiting feminist blogs, and has stated that his wife is very involved in that culture. Dealing with these people probably isn't that far out of his wheelhouse.
This explains why Jerry hasn't said or done anything about the issue. I can see him washing his hands of it and going "good luck dude, don't go crazy with anxiety or something" to Mike if he and his wife are that interconnected with that stuff.
Depending on how you define "rape culture" I would say it does exist, but not equally everywhere. I saw some fucked up things when I worked for the rape counseling center part of the YWCA, and I was only front desk actually talked to patients/victims for like a month.
The number of teenage girls that are terrified to report rape in a decent sized city is fucking staggering
And depending on how you define 'flying saucer', you might be able to convince me they exist.
I'm sorry, but it's an incredible insult to anyone living in a place like Tehran to suggest that we have a rape culture. The fact that indiscretions occur does not somehow prove that there is an institutional effort to make rape acceptable anymore than missing persons prove that molemen are abducting people in the night.
If you call the police to report a rape, they show up and investigate. Now, the devil's in the details and policing still needs a lot of improvement, but you will not hear a 9-1-1 operator say, "Oh, we don't bother with rapes," before hanging-up and you don't read about how wonderful rape is from a significant lobbying group.
It also speaks volumes that apparently the feminists in this case don't think sexual assault when done to males is worthy of any discussion or consideration.
EDIT: To articulate this another way: think about an easily identifiable cultural group. As an example, I'll pick on gun culture.
How do we know that a firearm culture exists in the United States? Simple: it presents itself in the gun ownership statistics, the pro-gun lobby, enthusiast literature, supporting political arms and gun ownership clubs (to name just a few things). Saying, "a lot of people get shot every year, therefore there's a gun culture," would be nonsense.
So, where are the analogs to the firearm culture for the supposed rape culture? Can you name any mainstream pro-rape clubs? Any serious, open political proponents? Any lobbying groups?
The fact that indiscretions occur does not somehow prove that there is an institutional effort to make rape acceptable anymore than missing persons prove that molemen are abducting people in the night.
...
It also speaks volumes that apparently the feminists in this case don't think sexual assault when done to males is worthy of any discussion or consideration.
Why focus on the most contentious claims about "rape culture?" I.E. the existence of some institutional effort to make rape accetable.
Document the prevalence of false beliefs about rape. Theorize or research indirectly the false beliefs people might be unwilling to admit in a structured interview. Note that false beliefs about rape make it easier to rape and affect the experience of victims of rape. Rape Culture.
Feminists don't care about male rape: false.
I'm not sure who the "feminists in this case" are.
Feminists don't care about male rape: false.
I'm not sure who the "feminists in this case" are.
Don't put words in my mouth, thanks. I didn't say that feminists as a whole do not care about male rape.
I'm talking specifically about the blogger who attacked the PA comic strip, who is part of a fringe group that believes that 'rape culture' is the cause of all sexual violence, and that all rape is performed by men.
Document the prevalence of false beliefs about rape. Theorize or research indirectly the false beliefs people might be unwilling to admit in a structured interview. Note that false beliefs about rape make it easier to rape and affect the experience of victims of rape. Rape Culture.
And this would be called 'shifting the goalposts'. Yes, sure, if your definition of rape culture is ridiculously ambiguous, I suppose you can see the demon everywhere.
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
I don't think anyone here agrees with your interpretation, and if they do, I encourage them to post and elaborate on it.
Jaydo, it would seem you are new to this particular part of the forums at least, and as such, I must warn you: here, there be issues. From this point on, you abosolutely must puctuate, spell and spell-out your points as clearly as possible (outside of [chat], because that's where the love lives). And absolutely never, ever go into an argument without being read to back yourself up a few times.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
Document the prevalence of false beliefs about rape. Theorize or research indirectly the false beliefs people might be unwilling to admit in a structured interview. Note that false beliefs about rape make it easier to rape and affect the experience of victims of rape. Rape Culture.
Yes, sure, if your definition of rape culture is ridiculously ambiguous, I suppose you can see the demon everywhere.
Rape culture: false beliefs that make it easier to rape or affect negatively the victims of rape - I'm not sure how I could be more precise. Google search: rape myths.
Speaking of shifting the goalposts: requiring the existence of a political party advocating rape to even acknowledge a relation between a particular behaviour (rape) and culture.
Rape culture: false beliefs that make it easier to rape or affect negatively the victims of rape - I'm not sure how I could be more precise. Google search: rape myths.
That's not a culture. That's a set of beliefs.
Speaking of shifting the goalposts: requiring the existence of a political party advocating rape to even acknowledge a relation between a particular behaviour (rape) and culture.
Yes, cultures and sub-cultures tend to have things like political arms - but fair enough, perhaps the rape culture is so disconnected from politics that they never convened a formal party.
So, where are the lobbyists and proponents that support this culture? What is the name of the pro-rape equivalent to Green Peace, PETA, the NRA, etc? Who is the Ayn Rand of rape culture? Who is the Michael Moore or Anne Coulter of rape culture?
EDIT: In otherwords, where is any evidence at all that this culture exists? That people get raped every year isn't evidence of some process of normalization.
Document the prevalence of false beliefs about rape. Theorize or research indirectly the false beliefs people might be unwilling to admit in a structured interview. Note that false beliefs about rape make it easier to rape and affect the experience of victims of rape. Rape Culture.
Yes, sure, if your definition of rape culture is ridiculously ambiguous, I suppose you can see the demon everywhere.
Rape culture: false beliefs that make it easier to rape or affect negatively the victims of rape - I'm not sure how I could be more precise. Google search: rape myths.
Speaking of shifting the goalposts: requiring the existence of a political party advocating rape to even acknowledge a relation between a particular behaviour (rape) and culture.
1: What is the list of false beliefs? We need this, so we can cease promoting rape. And, since google will turn up mostly 4chan and porn at this point, why don't you provide the comprehensive list?
2: There are many very different victims of rape. What all affects them(us) negatively? The word? The idea? The act? Jokes? Day-to-day life and interpersonal interaction?
EDIT: What I'm getting at here is the fact there is no way to 'make it easier to rape.' All it takes is one person(any gender) and one other person (any gender), and if somebody is a rapist, they'll do some raping. A joke about an imaginary man being raped by an imaginary lupine, perhaps comprised mainly of phalusses will in no way cause more rapists to rape people. There is no correlation.
Haha
I suspect you and Ender are trolling me at this point.
I don't know about you, Frothulu, but the first link that shows up when I google "rape myths" is, well, a list of rape myths posted on a University of Minnesota webpage. I'm sure you can do your own research.
Haha I suspect you and Ender are trolling me at this point.
I don't know about you, Frothulu but the first link that shows up when I google "rape myths" is, well, a list of rape myths posted on a University of Minnesota webpage. I'm sure you can do your own research.
That's not a culture. That's a set of beliefs.
That's not an argument, it's a list of words.
I am absolutely not trolling you, homes.
I simply want to know what this culture is that apparently thinks it's wicked-awesome to commit rape. Maybe I just don't understand, but that's what the phrase "rape culture" suggests. And, not only that, but the idea that either cartoon strip makes it easier to commit the act of rape is... well... just, wow.
All you have to do to find rape myths is to go to any story about rape on CNN and scroll down to the comments section. (In fact, I posted some earlier in the thread.) EVERY time there is a news story featuring rape, people spew the same crap.
No, you don't understand the concept if you think it means people think it's awesomesauce to rape. It's more like, "Sure, rape is bad, but . . ."
"but the victim shouldn't have gone into the bedroom with him, but she's just a golddigger, but look at what she was wearing, but what was she doing out in the park at night, but she's promiscuous, but she was asking for it."
In other words, "rape is bad, but it is ultimately your fault you were raped (because men are just LIKE THAT, you can't expect them NOT to rape when given the chance)." If anyone is wondering where the idea comes from that all men are crazy raping machines who are just waiting to molest kids . . . yeah, rape culture. It does no favors for either gender.
All you have to do to find rape myths is to go to any story about rape on CNN and scroll down to the comments section. (In fact, I posted some earlier in the thread.) EVERY time there is a news story featuring rape, people spew the same crap.
No, you don't understand the concept if you think it means people think it's awesomesauce to rape. It's more like, "Sure, rape is bad, but . . ."
"but the victim shouldn't have gone into the bedroom with him, but she's just a golddigger, but look at what she was wearing, but what was she doing out in the park at night, but she's promiscuous, but she was asking for it."
In other words, "rape is bad, but it is ultimately your fault you were raped (because men are just LIKE THAT, you can't expect them NOT to rape when given the chance)." If anyone is wondering where the idea comes from that all men are crazy raping machines who are just waiting to molest kids . . . yeah, rape culture. It does no favors for either gender.
(And now I'm retiring for the night.)
And is that a manifestation of rape culture, or is it just a bunch of trolls on the Internet?
Moreover, I'd like a specific example. Can you provide a link to a story where the comments section is filled with mostly blame the victim rhetoric?
Haha
I suspect you and Ender are trolling me at this point.
I don't know about you, Frothulu, but the first link that shows up when I google "rape myths" is, well, a list of rape myths posted on a University of Minnesota webpage. I'm sure you can do your own research.
That's not a culture. That's a set of beliefs.
That's not an argument, it's a list of words.
No, it's actually an argument and a list of words, if you really want to go there.
A culture (you'll note that the root word of 'culture' is 'cult') is a group or organization that is galvanized by a set of beliefs / principles. Isolated individuals having beliefs that may lead to rape does not indicate that a culture of such rapists exists.
This is hard to understand, somehow? Like, since Ted Bundy murdered and raped people due to his psychosis, do you think there must be a whole Ted Bundy culture out there too? you can't have just one person being responsible for what they do?
The Ender on
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Burden of ProofYou three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
There's no point in asking for an apology now. He's been called a "rape apologist" and a "supporter of rape culture". There's no way he's apologizing to anyone now.
There's no point in asking for an apology now. He's been called a "rape apologist" and a "supporter of rape culture". There's no way he's apologizing to anyone now.
The people making those allegations won't be at PAX, and the best way to defend Mike against such nonsense is to work to make PAX a welcoming place for everyone. Mike doesn't need to say anything for that to happen.
To be totally honest, the rape apologism and rape culture stuff isn't even really relevant. We can argue that all day but it doesn't change the fact that this is an issue when it didn't have to be. The follow-up comic probably shouldn't have been done, and Mike responded the wrong way to the people on twitter by responding at all. It wasn't handled right.
To be fair, I'm sure a ton of people were harassing him, and I don't think he expected it to blow up like it seems it did.
And removing the shirts from the store was a good call, for the reasons Mike posted on that one blog.
A culture (you'll note that the root word of 'culture' is 'cult') is a group or organization that is galvanized by a set of beliefs / principles. Isolated individuals having beliefs that may lead to rape does not indicate that a culture of such rapists exists.
I don't think you understand what "rape culture" means. It doesn't mean "EVERYONE IN THIS CULTURE IS A RAPIST". It means that there are a set of beliefs that are, sadly, too prevalent and make life even more difficult for a rape victim? As much as you might not want to believe it, a good number of people feel the woman is partly at fault for her rape if she was being flirtatious, or was drunk, or was dressed a certain way. To keep arguments out of a court of law, they had to make it illegal. These beliefs and myths aren't universal, obviously, but they don't have to be for "rape culture" to exist.
I think the whole issue was blown out of proportion: the comics were PA's usual offensive humor which were making a point about MMO morality and using rape as a stand-in for something "really bad."The reaction comic I thought was hilarious and was Gabe defensive about the claim of being a rape apologist.
That said, the shirts were a dumb move. Even though I don't think there was any ill intent behind them (they were more a *fuck you* to the bloggers who had criticized the two comics than something more insidious), it's obvious how the shirts could be interpreted in a way so as to be immensely disrespectful to those who've actually had to deal with sexual assault. Or how they could be purchased or worn mainly by individuals trivializing rape (as in "haha rape", as opposed to "fuck this PC bullshit"). So I think that ultimately it was a good thing they were taken down.
How is a "fuck you" not ill intent? That doesn't even make any sense.
This thread really should have been locked somewhere around page 20. Its just going in circles now, because every five pages or so a new random shows up to ask what rape culture is, and we're back to square one.
People aren't sympathetic to rape victims because they treat rape as a joke because they heard one too many rape jokes?
Not even a joke, there was one I saw yesterday whose logic was:
Laughter releases endorphins. When we share in a joke we’re rewarded with endorphins via the laughter mechanism, a concept used in negotiation in many parts of life; from Clown Doctors to get patient cooperation in treatment, mediation to clear tension and marketing departments world over to lower consumer defensiveness.
...
I personally resent having someone attempting to trigger the release of endorphins in to my brain while I’m being exposed to the concept of abandoning a victim to continue being raped.
Its beyond "psuedo-psych" its "simplify and trivialize psychology to the point where its fundamentally incorrect"
People aren't sympathetic to rape victims because they treat rape as a joke because they heard one too many rape jokes?
Not even a joke, there was one I saw yesterday whose logic was:
Laughter releases endorphins. When we share in a joke we’re rewarded with endorphins via the laughter mechanism, a concept used in negotiation in many parts of life; from Clown Doctors to get patient cooperation in treatment, mediation to clear tension and marketing departments world over to lower consumer defensiveness.
...
I personally resent having someone attempting to trigger the release of endorphins in to my brain while I’m being exposed to the concept of abandoning a victim to continue being raped.
Its beyond "psuedo-psych" its "simplify and trivialize psychology to the point where its fundamentally incorrect"
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
I don't think anyone here agrees with your interpretation, and if they do, I encourage them to post and elaborate on it.
For what it's worth, I tried to engage the topic a few pages back, but things went a bit off the rails after somebody burst in dogwhistling about a different Shakesville post and then I had to go to bed.
All you have to do to find rape myths is to go to any story about rape on CNN and scroll down to the comments section. (In fact, I posted some earlier in the thread.) EVERY time there is a news story featuring rape, people spew the same crap.
No, you don't understand the concept if you think it means people think it's awesomesauce to rape. It's more like, "Sure, rape is bad, but . . ."
"but the victim shouldn't have gone into the bedroom with him, but she's just a golddigger, but look at what she was wearing, but what was she doing out in the park at night, but she's promiscuous, but she was asking for it."
In other words, "rape is bad, but it is ultimately your fault you were raped (because men are just LIKE THAT, you can't expect them NOT to rape when given the chance)." If anyone is wondering where the idea comes from that all men are crazy raping machines who are just waiting to molest kids . . . yeah, rape culture. It does no favors for either gender.
(And now I'm retiring for the night.)
Well said, GG, that's all she wrote and really, this is the reality.
Talk to your family and ask them if a girl holds any blame after she gets raped when she's hanging out at a party with people drinking.
Even after one of my friends was raped, my family essentially told me that "I'm not blaming her...but COME ON she was at a party where people were drinking! I'm not saying it's her fault, i'm saying her actions partly contributed to what happened to her!"
I mean, it's like blaming the dude who gets shot walking down harlem. Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
The asshole who shot him is responsible. Saying anything other than "walking in a dangerous neighborhood increases the chances of harm" is a blame game I'm not willing to play.
How is a "fuck you" not ill intent? That doesn't even make any sense.
by ill intent i meant either deliberately or unconsciously done with the motive of trivializing sexual violence. Saying "screw you" to some bloggers who criticized your work (which one could also I guess call "ill intent") doesn't really begin to be problematic on the same level.
The problem of course being that even if the intention of the shirt wasn't to trivialize sexual violence that was precisely what it did.
Wow 20 pages since last night, you guys have been busy.
I'm not to sure I believe any of their claims anymore. What it seems like is someone who got offended by a word, got vocal, and drew attention to themselves. The falling out is really more about Mike making his jokes than anything now. And you know what? Fuck everyone else, Mike is a pretty funny guy.
Hey Mike: You're a great comedian and artist and keep up your good work. If you ever happen to encroach on a topic that offends me I'll still read your comic and laugh at it because I know it's an allegory. Your parables do not offend me good sir! Even if Jerry writes some of them, or you do, you're both great guys and the good you do far outshines the insignificant hidden (fake) meaning of 8 (roughly) of your comics.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I suspect that very few people, at least here, would disagree with the existence of rape culture if nobody called it that. To be honest, it is just an inflammatory phrase that seems more likely to alienate someone. To say that there is a pervasive rape culture of which you, and you, and you, and implicitly I are a part sounds like an accusation that everyone is some sort of skulking rape partisan waiting for a moment of weakness in the current regime that we might overthrow it and institute a more suitable republic centered on our hidden values.
To say that there are a number of negative and destructive assumptions that enough people to be worrisome have to the effect of: "look at her, she was asking for it" or "look at that guy, there's no way it was non-consentual" or "they were married, how can it be rape" or anything else to that effect?
That is probably an uncontroversial statement.
To say that we have a media and an advertising industry that is built up around the hypersexualization of one sex far more than the other would be an uncontroversial statement. As would the statement that there is a lot of advertising that centers on reducing women to sexual objects, sometimes literally, through the use of imagery, posing, and subtitles.
There's a lot of stuff that goes into making a victim less likely to report a rape. There's a lot of stuff that can go into a person rationalizing the act of rape in their mind.
Do they comprise a rape culture? Inasmuch as a culture promoting wealth and being ostentatious, as ours often does, is a theft culture. You can make that argument, but it'd probably sound dumb.
So anyway, given all of that: I can understand why someone would perceive a rape culture. I can understand why they would then react very negatively to the initial comic, as it is a piece of culture that mentions the word rape, and in a kneejerk reaction may even be construed as triviliazing it (instead of the reality of it trivializing the heroism in MMORPG's). They should still have that critical analysis step where they look at how they're reacting to determine how much sense it makes.
Everything after that is just regrettable (even though I thought the second comic was funny. I'm a sucker for funny wording.)
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
I suspect that very few people, at least here, would disagree with the existence of rape culture if nobody called it that. To be honest, it is just an inflammatory phrase that seems more likely to alienate someone.
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
I don't think anyone here agrees with your interpretation, and if they do, I encourage them to post and elaborate on it.
For what it's worth, I tried to engage the topic a few pages back, but things went a bit off the rails after somebody burst in dogwhistling about a different Shakesville post and then I had to go to bed.
Huh, missed this earlier. I don't think Jaydo gets to speak for the rest of the forum. That post of Zafrods very neatly nails one of the major reasons the response strip was such a bad approach (the other being that the entire thing was a strawman of the original concerns about the strip, whether you find them valid or not). Sure, it was funny on one level, but on so many others, just a terrible response. Immature, thoughtless, bad PR.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth saving in the face of that.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth not doing that.
Or maybe people bitch about the jargon solely so they have an excuse not to engage the topic, which seems much more likely to me. I agree that "inflammatory jargon" is counterproductive, but it is only counterproductive because people choose the path of lazy ignorance rather than thinking first and talking later. They see the words "rape culture" and rather than even bothering to investigate the meaning of that phrase, they just make assumptions and jump right into railing against it. Now, I ask you: Who is to blame here? The people using the term "rape culture" in earnest, or the people railing against it who haven't bothered to do a few minimal google searches to try and learn the meaning of the phrase?
The point here is to suggest that the debate isn't about Meany Melissa poo-pooing on our precious t-shirt. Instead, it's debate between gamers about gamer culture.
I respect what you're trying to do here, but at the end of the day all I see is fake outrage created for publicity's sake and a pissed off creator lashing back. I doubt anyone would have given two shits about the shirts at PAX or any other event if this fake controversy weren't generated.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth saving in the face of that.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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So what part do you think is trivializing? The response comic?
My interpretation from the art and the words, it looks like the Gabe character looks just fucking ridiculous like he has a desperate desire to not be thought of as being pro rape, while the Tycho character looks just worn down as the more jaded character. In context of Gabe and Tycho, Jerry and Mike, and the history surrounding the whole endeavor, it makes sense.
If they are trivializing anything, I think they are trivializing the idea that the previous comic might in some way lead to rape. Since we don't have access to their email accounts it's hard to say what they were, for sure, replying to.
Jerry, as he stated in a podcast a couple years back, has a long standing history of visiting feminist blogs, and has stated that his wife is very involved in that culture. Dealing with these people probably isn't that far out of his wheelhouse.
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I guess I'm trying to suggest that edgy humour is consistent with an inclusive community - at minimum exercising basic social skills and some empathy for people with a different experience. I'm sure a serious critic of the various evils in the world would have more to say, but it riles me to no end to see the pattern:
RAGEGUY: Dammit why are those irrational bitches treading on my right to do as I please
RAGEGUY2: YA, they should go make me a sammich
Yes, but it's not trivializing rape. It's faux concern about the idea that a comic not about rape could contribute to rape culture.
They are mocking the idea that there comic has anything to do with rape.
And they are right. Because the first comic has nothing to do with rape.
There's no other way to reasonably interpret it. He's mocking the sheer stupidity of the accusation with sarcasm.
Where do you work that a photo of you wearing a silly t-shirt can get you fired?
And just in case you actually don't know, the rogue phrase is a reference to how rogues (and other melee classes) in WoW need to attack from behind creatures for maximum damage potential.
This explains why Jerry hasn't said or done anything about the issue. I can see him washing his hands of it and going "good luck dude, don't go crazy with anxiety or something" to Mike if he and his wife are that interconnected with that stuff.
And depending on how you define 'flying saucer', you might be able to convince me they exist.
I'm sorry, but it's an incredible insult to anyone living in a place like Tehran to suggest that we have a rape culture. The fact that indiscretions occur does not somehow prove that there is an institutional effort to make rape acceptable anymore than missing persons prove that molemen are abducting people in the night.
If you call the police to report a rape, they show up and investigate. Now, the devil's in the details and policing still needs a lot of improvement, but you will not hear a 9-1-1 operator say, "Oh, we don't bother with rapes," before hanging-up and you don't read about how wonderful rape is from a significant lobbying group.
It also speaks volumes that apparently the feminists in this case don't think sexual assault when done to males is worthy of any discussion or consideration.
EDIT: To articulate this another way: think about an easily identifiable cultural group. As an example, I'll pick on gun culture.
How do we know that a firearm culture exists in the United States? Simple: it presents itself in the gun ownership statistics, the pro-gun lobby, enthusiast literature, supporting political arms and gun ownership clubs (to name just a few things). Saying, "a lot of people get shot every year, therefore there's a gun culture," would be nonsense.
So, where are the analogs to the firearm culture for the supposed rape culture? Can you name any mainstream pro-rape clubs? Any serious, open political proponents? Any lobbying groups?
Document the prevalence of false beliefs about rape. Theorize or research indirectly the false beliefs people might be unwilling to admit in a structured interview. Note that false beliefs about rape make it easier to rape and affect the experience of victims of rape. Rape Culture.
Feminists don't care about male rape: false.
I'm not sure who the "feminists in this case" are.
Don't put words in my mouth, thanks. I didn't say that feminists as a whole do not care about male rape.
I'm talking specifically about the blogger who attacked the PA comic strip, who is part of a fringe group that believes that 'rape culture' is the cause of all sexual violence, and that all rape is performed by men.
And this would be called 'shifting the goalposts'. Yes, sure, if your definition of rape culture is ridiculously ambiguous, I suppose you can see the demon everywhere.
Jaydo, it would seem you are new to this particular part of the forums at least, and as such, I must warn you: here, there be issues. From this point on, you abosolutely must puctuate, spell and spell-out your points as clearly as possible (outside of [chat], because that's where the love lives). And absolutely never, ever go into an argument without being read to back yourself up a few times.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
Rape culture: false beliefs that make it easier to rape or affect negatively the victims of rape - I'm not sure how I could be more precise. Google search: rape myths.
Speaking of shifting the goalposts: requiring the existence of a political party advocating rape to even acknowledge a relation between a particular behaviour (rape) and culture.
That's not a culture. That's a set of beliefs.
Yes, cultures and sub-cultures tend to have things like political arms - but fair enough, perhaps the rape culture is so disconnected from politics that they never convened a formal party.
So, where are the lobbyists and proponents that support this culture? What is the name of the pro-rape equivalent to Green Peace, PETA, the NRA, etc? Who is the Ayn Rand of rape culture? Who is the Michael Moore or Anne Coulter of rape culture?
EDIT: In otherwords, where is any evidence at all that this culture exists? That people get raped every year isn't evidence of some process of normalization.
1: What is the list of false beliefs? We need this, so we can cease promoting rape. And, since google will turn up mostly 4chan and porn at this point, why don't you provide the comprehensive list?
2: There are many very different victims of rape. What all affects them(us) negatively? The word? The idea? The act? Jokes? Day-to-day life and interpersonal interaction?
EDIT: What I'm getting at here is the fact there is no way to 'make it easier to rape.' All it takes is one person(any gender) and one other person (any gender), and if somebody is a rapist, they'll do some raping. A joke about an imaginary man being raped by an imaginary lupine, perhaps comprised mainly of phalusses will in no way cause more rapists to rape people. There is no correlation.
I suspect you and Ender are trolling me at this point.
I don't know about you, Frothulu, but the first link that shows up when I google "rape myths" is, well, a list of rape myths posted on a University of Minnesota webpage. I'm sure you can do your own research.
That's not an argument, it's a list of words.
I am absolutely not trolling you, homes.
I simply want to know what this culture is that apparently thinks it's wicked-awesome to commit rape. Maybe I just don't understand, but that's what the phrase "rape culture" suggests. And, not only that, but the idea that either cartoon strip makes it easier to commit the act of rape is... well... just, wow.
No, you don't understand the concept if you think it means people think it's awesomesauce to rape. It's more like, "Sure, rape is bad, but . . ."
"but the victim shouldn't have gone into the bedroom with him, but she's just a golddigger, but look at what she was wearing, but what was she doing out in the park at night, but she's promiscuous, but she was asking for it."
In other words, "rape is bad, but it is ultimately your fault you were raped (because men are just LIKE THAT, you can't expect them NOT to rape when given the chance)." If anyone is wondering where the idea comes from that all men are crazy raping machines who are just waiting to molest kids . . . yeah, rape culture. It does no favors for either gender.
(And now I'm retiring for the night.)
And is that a manifestation of rape culture, or is it just a bunch of trolls on the Internet?
Moreover, I'd like a specific example. Can you provide a link to a story where the comments section is filled with mostly blame the victim rhetoric?
No, it's actually an argument and a list of words, if you really want to go there.
A culture (you'll note that the root word of 'culture' is 'cult') is a group or organization that is galvanized by a set of beliefs / principles. Isolated individuals having beliefs that may lead to rape does not indicate that a culture of such rapists exists.
This is hard to understand, somehow? Like, since Ted Bundy murdered and raped people due to his psychosis, do you think there must be a whole Ted Bundy culture out there too? you can't have just one person being responsible for what they do?
To be fair, I'm sure a ton of people were harassing him, and I don't think he expected it to blow up like it seems it did.
And removing the shirts from the store was a good call, for the reasons Mike posted on that one blog.
I don't think you understand what "rape culture" means. It doesn't mean "EVERYONE IN THIS CULTURE IS A RAPIST". It means that there are a set of beliefs that are, sadly, too prevalent and make life even more difficult for a rape victim? As much as you might not want to believe it, a good number of people feel the woman is partly at fault for her rape if she was being flirtatious, or was drunk, or was dressed a certain way. To keep arguments out of a court of law, they had to make it illegal. These beliefs and myths aren't universal, obviously, but they don't have to be for "rape culture" to exist.
That said, the shirts were a dumb move. Even though I don't think there was any ill intent behind them (they were more a *fuck you* to the bloggers who had criticized the two comics than something more insidious), it's obvious how the shirts could be interpreted in a way so as to be immensely disrespectful to those who've actually had to deal with sexual assault. Or how they could be purchased or worn mainly by individuals trivializing rape (as in "haha rape", as opposed to "fuck this PC bullshit"). So I think that ultimately it was a good thing they were taken down.
This thread really should have been locked somewhere around page 20. Its just going in circles now, because every five pages or so a new random shows up to ask what rape culture is, and we're back to square one.
Not even a joke, there was one I saw yesterday whose logic was:
Its beyond "psuedo-psych" its "simplify and trivialize psychology to the point where its fundamentally incorrect"
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I just lost a bunch of endorphins.
For what it's worth, I tried to engage the topic a few pages back, but things went a bit off the rails after somebody burst in dogwhistling about a different Shakesville post and then I had to go to bed.
Well said, GG, that's all she wrote and really, this is the reality.
Talk to your family and ask them if a girl holds any blame after she gets raped when she's hanging out at a party with people drinking.
Even after one of my friends was raped, my family essentially told me that "I'm not blaming her...but COME ON she was at a party where people were drinking! I'm not saying it's her fault, i'm saying her actions partly contributed to what happened to her!"
I mean, it's like blaming the dude who gets shot walking down harlem. Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
The asshole who shot him is responsible. Saying anything other than "walking in a dangerous neighborhood increases the chances of harm" is a blame game I'm not willing to play.
The problem of course being that even if the intention of the shirt wasn't to trivialize sexual violence that was precisely what it did.
I'm not to sure I believe any of their claims anymore. What it seems like is someone who got offended by a word, got vocal, and drew attention to themselves. The falling out is really more about Mike making his jokes than anything now. And you know what? Fuck everyone else, Mike is a pretty funny guy.
Hey Mike: You're a great comedian and artist and keep up your good work. If you ever happen to encroach on a topic that offends me I'll still read your comic and laugh at it because I know it's an allegory. Your parables do not offend me good sir! Even if Jerry writes some of them, or you do, you're both great guys and the good you do far outshines the insignificant hidden (fake) meaning of 8 (roughly) of your comics.
To say that there are a number of negative and destructive assumptions that enough people to be worrisome have to the effect of: "look at her, she was asking for it" or "look at that guy, there's no way it was non-consentual" or "they were married, how can it be rape" or anything else to that effect?
That is probably an uncontroversial statement.
To say that we have a media and an advertising industry that is built up around the hypersexualization of one sex far more than the other would be an uncontroversial statement. As would the statement that there is a lot of advertising that centers on reducing women to sexual objects, sometimes literally, through the use of imagery, posing, and subtitles.
There's a lot of stuff that goes into making a victim less likely to report a rape. There's a lot of stuff that can go into a person rationalizing the act of rape in their mind.
Do they comprise a rape culture? Inasmuch as a culture promoting wealth and being ostentatious, as ours often does, is a theft culture. You can make that argument, but it'd probably sound dumb.
So anyway, given all of that: I can understand why someone would perceive a rape culture. I can understand why they would then react very negatively to the initial comic, as it is a piece of culture that mentions the word rape, and in a kneejerk reaction may even be construed as triviliazing it (instead of the reality of it trivializing the heroism in MMORPG's). They should still have that critical analysis step where they look at how they're reacting to determine how much sense it makes.
Everything after that is just regrettable (even though I thought the second comic was funny. I'm a sucker for funny wording.)
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Huh, missed this earlier. I don't think Jaydo gets to speak for the rest of the forum. That post of Zafrods very neatly nails one of the major reasons the response strip was such a bad approach (the other being that the entire thing was a strawman of the original concerns about the strip, whether you find them valid or not). Sure, it was funny on one level, but on so many others, just a terrible response. Immature, thoughtless, bad PR.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth saving in the face of that.
Or maybe people bitch about the jargon solely so they have an excuse not to engage the topic, which seems much more likely to me. I agree that "inflammatory jargon" is counterproductive, but it is only counterproductive because people choose the path of lazy ignorance rather than thinking first and talking later. They see the words "rape culture" and rather than even bothering to investigate the meaning of that phrase, they just make assumptions and jump right into railing against it. Now, I ask you: Who is to blame here? The people using the term "rape culture" in earnest, or the people railing against it who haven't bothered to do a few minimal google searches to try and learn the meaning of the phrase?
I respect what you're trying to do here, but at the end of the day all I see is fake outrage created for publicity's sake and a pissed off creator lashing back. I doubt anyone would have given two shits about the shirts at PAX or any other event if this fake controversy weren't generated.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.