No, I think that's crap. Even a half-assedly thoughtful reading of context demonstrates that 'team dickwolf' identifies the wearer with the wrong side of that joke. People who failed to notice that aren't evil, but they aren't right to keep denying it once its pointed out to them.
So, 39 pages. I guess we're now in the spiral of "I didn't read the thread but let me post my opinion because no-one can possibly have written out my argument already"?
Cthulu is evil but people wear shirts with that on it. Something being evil doesn't stop it from being a cool concept in people's minds, especially if you don't make the assumption that all Dickwolves do is rape but it's something the evil ones do (like humans!). The fact of the matter is that by drudging things up publicly like that rather than privately she's done more harm than good. She could have easily emailed PA her issues but she chose to make them public, probably because she was expecting some outpouring of support rather than 4chan trolls decending on her like locusts. I thought the same thing about her shirt--which she's since realized and taken down herself--in that if she thought the original shirt was bad then making a shirt that explicitly connected them to rape didn't do anyone any favors.
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
See, sometimes I think Shakesville is a over-the-top. Unnecessarily shrill. Too quick on the offense.
Then I read ignorance like this, and I'm suddenly a lot more sympathetic about what they do over there.
No, I think that's crap. Even a half-assedly thoughtful reading of context demonstrates that 'team dickwolf' identifies the wearer with the wrong side of that joke. People who failed to notice that aren't evil, but they aren't right to keep denying it once its pointed out to them.
So, 39 pages. I guess we're now in the spiral of "I didn't read the thread but let me post my opinion because no-one can possibly have written out my argument already"?
Cthulu is evil but people wear shirts with that on it. Something being evil doesn't stop it from being a cool concept in people's minds, especially if you don't make the assumption that all Dickwolves do is rape but it's something the evil ones do (like humans!).
Well then, perhaps you should have said that instead of denying that the shirt represented something "evil" at all?
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
See, sometimes I think Shakesville is a over-the-top. Unnecessarily shrill. Too quick on the offense.
Then I read ignorance like this, and I'm suddenly a lot more sympathetic about what they do over there.
You may have been trolled, just throwing that out there.
I'm sure there was probably one person, maybe even a small handful, in the entire world who was offended in a reasonable way, but this situation is the webcomic equivalent of the Parental Television Council: manufactured outrage from people who aren't actually customers.
Sorry, but I'm a customer, and while I'm not outraged, I'm disappointed enough to say so.
Considering that the people accusing them of trivializing rape, consider making a second account on an internet forum the same as rape, I'd say G&T are pretty fucking far away from trivializing rape, in comparison to the accusers.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
It's strange to see so much focus put on Shakes - can't we agree that Mike is NOT a rape apologist and it's best just to ignore those who suggest otherwise? That said, it's also strange to see comments like the above - the impression that this is somehow a conversation about censorship.
How is it not censorship? "This offends me. Remove it."
Again, I'd suggest that this isn't a debate with Shakes. Having had the chance to read back in the thread, it's strange to get the impression that some believe the "Dickwolves Controversy" has anything to do with a frenzied minority accusing Mike of being a rape apologist . (Tho' the fucknoPA tumblr is pretty entertaining in it's insanity)
Ignore Shakes. The women/progressive gamers who are making this content go viral don't believe all men are rapists. They do have a sense of humour and they do enjoy reading Penny Arcade. They probably didn't give a fuck about the original comic. They do care about the response from T&G , the atmosphere at PAX, and gamer culture as a whole.
Melissa McEwan won't be and will never be at PAX. So... ignore... Shakesville.
The Federal Government does not care if Penny Arcade sells a Dickwolf t-shirt. Mike and Jerry care about PAX, and they chose to take it down from the store.
"So let's talk about t-shirts.
Noone cares if I hang out and have a beer with my budies wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt. It is worth talking about the effects of my behaviour on the community at PAX."
I fail to see how a t-shirt can make you more or less well behaved.
Reword for clarity: It is worth talking about how my wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt might affect the community at PAX. I have the right to wear what I like. I also have the right to be a dick(wolf?). It's worth talking about when to exercise these rights.
"It's nice to have the privilege to wear, for the most part, what I like when I like. Not everyone has that same privilege. And it's no surprise your average geek feminist might observe that some women can't wear what they like when they like; sometimes, if a woman dresses or behaves "wrong" it's "her fault" if she gets raped - 'she was asking for it'."
Um, that came out of left field
Breakdown:
(1) I have the privilege to wear what I like
(2) This privilege is not universal
(3) Example relevant to the issue at hand
Implication: My focus on excercising said privilege might be construed as insensitive given the issue at hand.
Possible Argument:
ME: The most important issue here is my right to act as I like (wear my dickwolves t-shirt)
FEMINIST CRITIC: Your t-shirt reflects a culture that assumes some people ought not to act as they like (lest they be legitimate targets of sexual aggression). If you value your right, you ought not to promote a culture that makes it difficult for others to claim the same right.
The point here is to suggest that the debate isn't about Meany Melissa poo-pooing on our precious t-shirt. Instead, it's debate between gamers about gamer culture. As for /b/ ...
Pause while wife goes and makes me a sammich.
How am I a /b/tard simply for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt?
You aren't - for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt. You might be perceived as one for strutting around PAX all "herderp Dickwolves!"
No, I think that's crap. Even a half-assedly thoughtful reading of context demonstrates that 'team dickwolf' identifies the wearer with the wrong side of that joke. People who failed to notice that aren't evil, but they aren't right to keep denying it once its pointed out to them.
So, 39 pages. I guess we're now in the spiral of "I didn't read the thread but let me post my opinion because no-one can possibly have written out my argument already"?
Cthulu is evil but people wear shirts with that on it. Something being evil doesn't stop it from being a cool concept in people's minds, especially if you don't make the assumption that all Dickwolves do is rape but it's something the evil ones do (like humans!).
Well then, perhaps you should have said that instead of denying that the shirt represented something "evil" at all?
You're not being very logical or consistent here.
People may have liked the concept specifically because of them being evil animals who gather all of their sustenance from rape or someone might just have liked the very idea of a creature whose limbs were all dicks, maybe they like the word "dickwolf" itself, or as I said before maybe they liked the idea of the Dickwolf being a sports mascot, potententially explaining to people who inquire that the dickwolf is a island wolf that preys on titmice and blue footed boobies or the team is owned by Law and Order creator Dick Wolf.
There's a myriad of reasons for someone to want the shirt besides cheering on rape, but her insistence that cheering on rape is the only reason someone would buy the shirt and the subsequent fallout (including making a counterpoint shirt to drive the point home) now has made wearing that shirt make you an accessory to being a rape apologist no matter your intent was for purchasing it. People could have worn the shirts at PAX and not had any explicit issues, but now that this argument has erupted again anyone there wearing the shirt maliciously or not will be looked down upon. She's injected hostility into a place where there was none before.
They're self-evidently attacking ridiculous overreactions rather than the act of rape itself or the severity of it. "Death of the Author" and all that, but it is on you if you decide to take what someone says and run with it.
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
See, sometimes I think Shakesville is a over-the-top. Unnecessarily shrill. Too quick on the offense.
Then I read ignorance like this, and I'm suddenly a lot more sympathetic about what they do over there.
Yes, so ignorant: You ever been to Africa, where a very real culture exists that encourages the sexual assault of women? I certainly have.
There is not a a 'rape culture' in the western world (in the United States, for example, rape has declined by more than 60% since 1993). It's seen as morally reprehensible, persecuted as a serious crime and condemned by anyone who doesn't have extraordinary social problems.
So what about that is 'ignorant'?
This post.
Jesus christ. "Look it's not like we forcibly cut off your genitals like other places so STFU!"
Wow.
Go check the stats, since apparently you're not aware of the incredibly rapid decline of rape (among other violent crimes) in the west.
I still don't agree, all they were doing was defending themselves by attacking their attackers.
It was stupid, but if that trivializes rape to you, then holy hell, I do not follow your logic at all.
Trivializing Rape: A Primer
"I do not approve of rape, but I do not believe that humor involving the subject of rape is necessarily condoning rape" - NOT trivializing rape
"Ha ha! You silly rape victims! We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape! Now I have to go encourage people to rape, because I'm such a rape promoter! Ha ha!" - Trivializing rape.
This service brought to you by the American Council For Things That Should Be Pretty Obvious
Now I almost want that shirt so I can stop associating with anyone who thinks that it makes you a rape apologist
"Well are you really going to press charges Susie? I mean we all know what you are like and he's the captain of the football team, he could have any girl he wants, you really think anyone will believe you?" - THAT is trivializing rape, and that happened all the fucking time not so long ago. By making a fuss over nothing, I would put forward, the cause is being moved backward by ignoring what really happens.
The decline of rape rates does not mean that a) rape rates are sufficiently low b) rape reporting is sufficiently reliable or c) that the pursuit of justice in cases of rape is in any way adequate. Decline is awesome; its not the whole story.
no one rational would have thought wearing a Dickwolves shirt equaled being a supporter of "Team Rapist!" as she put it in her post. Now that the idea has been introduced and plastered across the internet it's a forgone conclusion. I bet that this is one of the reasons why the shirts were taken down, for fears of trolls buying and using it in such a manner.
Who needs the official t-shirts. /v/ has been raging for the last forever, reposting the same templates to "make your own."
"Ha ha! You silly rape victims! We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape! Now I have to go encourage people to rape, because I'm such a rape promoter! Ha ha!" - Trivializing rape.
I think he's using sarcasm in the form of "Fuck this shit. People are calling me a rape apologist. Fuck you person who doesn't know me." It seemed more exasperated to me than anything. If a person who is a victim of rape is calling someone a rape apologist if they are not a rape apologist is still not a good move.
I still don't agree, all they were doing was defending themselves by attacking their attackers.
It was stupid, but if that trivializes rape to you, then holy hell, I do not follow your logic at all.
Trivializing Rape: A Primer
"I do not approve of rape, but I do not believe that humor involving the subject of rape is necessarily condoning rape" - NOT trivializing rape
"Ha ha! You silly rape victims! We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape! Now I have to go encourage people to rape, because I'm such a rape promoter! Ha ha!" - Trivializing rape.
This service brought to you by the American Council For Things That Should Be Pretty Obvious
You read the words, but you did not interpret them.
"Ha ha! You silly people, you think imaginary situations depicted in a comic that was intended to make a comment about morality and heroes in quests in mmos are actually reflective of reality, and we think you're stupid because of that. Now we'll pretend like we care what you think, and be extremely condescending because think you don't understand us, and you're probably crazy."
That's what that comic said not, "Hey rape victims, we're making fun of you because you were raped; rape rape rape."
IF that's how you want to take it, that's fine, but honestly... The door is that way, it's your choice to use it, not ours.
Now I almost want that shirt so I can stop associating with anyone who thinks that it makes you a rape apologist
That's another thing. Now the shirt has another allure to it that it didn't before: scarsity and controversy. I've seen a lot more people express interest in purchasing a Dickwolves shirt now that it's no longer offered and is being villanized. People who own one and are keeping up with the controversy are also now more likely to wear it because now they're part of an exclusive club and/or out of spite towards the detractors. 4chan and others are even giving instructions on printing your own. It's a lose-lose situation for the two "sides" involved.
Now I almost want that shirt so I can stop associating with anyone who thinks that it makes you a rape apologist
"Well are you really going to press charges Susie? I mean we all know what you are like and he's the captain of the football team, he could have any girl he wants, you really think anyone will believe you?" - THAT is trivializing rape, and that happened all the fucking time not so long ago. By making a fuss over nothing, I would put forward, the cause is being moved backward by ignoring what really happens.
The decline of rape rates does not mean that a) rape rates are sufficiently low b) rape reporting is sufficiently reliable or c) that the pursuit of justice in cases of rape is in any way adequate. Decline is awesome; its not the whole story.
No, but I didn't posit any of those things - and it certainly IS strong evidence against the symbiosis of our culture with a 'rape culture'. And where is the evidence for the existence of this alleged demon? If it's not in the stats, it should be in things like mainstream periodicals, television networks, contemporary literature, etc. Where are the mainstream pro-rape lobbyists? Where are the openly pro-rape political parties? Were are the pro-rape op-eds and/or journalist columns?
They're conspicuously absent.
The 'rape culture' bogeyman is no better, and no more real, than the 'satanist conspiracy' that was alleged to surround things like fantasy novels & roleplaying games a few decades ago.
EDIT: And 'rape reporting isn't sufficiently reliable' is a weasel's way of claiming that the burden of proof belongs to anyone other than the person making the claim that rape culture is an existent thing to be concerned about. It's not much better than a NWO conspiracy promoter claiming that the evidenceisn't there because the government is covering it up.
Yes, a lot of sexual assault goes unreported, and police agencies do not have particularly good record keeping mechanisms - but the fact that data is hard to come by doesn't somehow excuse you from having to provide evidence for your claim.
Now I almost want that shirt so I can stop associating with anyone who thinks that it makes you a rape apologist
"Well are you really going to press charges Susie? I mean we all know what you are like and he's the captain of the football team, he could have any girl he wants, you really think anyone will believe you?" - THAT is trivializing rape, and that happened all the fucking time not so long ago. By making a fuss over nothing, I would put forward, the cause is being moved backward by ignoring what really happens.
I mean, wear the shirt all you want; I'd be happy to use it as a reason to avoid you. I guess it'd work out well for both of us.
I said almost, I wouldn't actually wear a dickwolves t-shirt, but I honestly cannot parse how it supports rape, the concept is so assbackward retarded that it is completely incompatible with my brain.
This is from someone in a town where you can probably get away with rape if the girl had an alcoholic beverage and rape is impossible if you're a guy - when places like this still exist in the United States that anyone would give a shit about a shirt (even if the shirt literally said "RAPE IS AWESOME GUYS!" its just a goddamn shirt, it doesn't really have any power!) boggles me. We have real problems regarding rape in much of the US, I mean cmon.
"Ha ha! You silly people, you think imaginary situations depicted in a comic that was intended to make a comment about morality and heroes in quests in mmos are actually reflective of reality, and we think you're stupid because of that. Now we'll pretend like we care what you think, and be extremely condescending because think you don't understand us, and you're probably crazy."
Here's my exaggerated interpretation of the strip.
We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape!
Here's an actual line from the strip:
We hate rapers, and all the rapes they do.
Which of our versions is closer in form and content to the original?
"Ha ha! You silly people, you think imaginary situations depicted in a comic that was intended to make a comment about morality and heroes in quests in mmos are actually reflective of reality, and we think you're stupid because of that. Now we'll pretend like we care what you think, and be extremely condescending because think you don't understand us, and you're probably crazy."
Here's my exaggerated interpretation of the strip.
We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape!
Here's an actual line from the strip:
We hate rapers, and all the rapes they do.
Which of our versions is closer in form and content to the original?
And like I originally said, you only read the words, you did not interpret them.
That strip is not literal, it's sarcastic.
The words themselves do not DIRECTLY convey the message of the strip.
"Ha ha! You silly people, you think imaginary situations depicted in a comic that was intended to make a comment about morality and heroes in quests in mmos are actually reflective of reality, and we think you're stupid because of that. Now we'll pretend like we care what you think, and be extremely condescending because think you don't understand us, and you're probably crazy."
Here's my exaggerated interpretation of the strip.
We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape!
Here's an actual line from the strip:
We hate rapers, and all the rapes they do.
Which of our versions is closer in form and content to the original?
Considering that Jaydo explained the entire comic, and you took 1 line out of context your argument is crap. And his still explains the comic better even when you cherry picked your line to try and make your wrong opinion look right.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
(even if the shirt literally said "RAPE IS AWESOME GUYS!" its just a goddamn shirt, it doesn't really have any power!)
Yeah, words, symbols, and images don't have any power.
O_o
They only have power if you give them power, by way of being told what they mean or interpreting them. You can teach a little kid to say fuck and as long as you don't react negatively they won't consider it a bad word.
(even if the shirt literally said "RAPE IS AWESOME GUYS!" its just a goddamn shirt, it doesn't really have any power!)
Yeah, words, symbols, and images don't have any power.
O_o
No, a shirt with "Dickwolves" on it doesn't have any power. If Dickwolves started being worn by some "Rape Party" who put forth the message of how once the woman agrees to enter your home its not rape, or something else that a nontrivial number of people actually believe and it gains traction and recognition, then maybe it would gain some power?
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
I don't think anyone here agrees with your interpretation, and if they do, I encourage them to post and elaborate on it.
They only have power if you give them power, by way of being told what they mean or interpreting them. You can teach a little kid to say fuck and as long as you don't react negatively they won't consider it a bad word.
Then he's 16 and says it to his boss on his first day of work and wonders why he's fired.
Words have CULTURAL meaning, not just personal meaning.
I said almost, I wouldn't actually wear a dickwolves t-shirt, but I honestly cannot parse how it supports rape, the concept is so assbackward retarded that it is completely incompatible with my brain.
I don't believe it "supports" rape. I don't believe a pedobear t-shirt "supports" pedophilia. Both are in very bad taste, and incredibly hostile in the wrong context
Don't wear your dickwolf t-shirt to PAX.
Don't wear your pedobear t-shirt when you take your kid to day care.
I wouldn't wear either of those things under any circumstance, a photo of me wearing one would cost me my job and be really hard to explain to the majority of people
Christ I couldn't even wear a "Rogues do it from behind" T-shirt (which... does that one promote rape culture or just anal sex culture? given that rogues are known for ambushing and whatnot?)
(even if the shirt literally said "RAPE IS AWESOME GUYS!" its just a goddamn shirt, it doesn't really have any power!)
Yeah, words, symbols, and images don't have any power.
O_o
Okay - let's be clear here:
This fringe branch of feminism isn't just claiming that sexual and/or sexually violent imagery/messages exert influence (which would be a true but trivial claim). They are claiming that a culture of rape exists, and that these messages/images are a symptom of that culture and that you are unethically participating in this culture of rape by not actively resisting it's temptations.
Without the rape culture, rape and sexual assault would disappear; it's only because men think that rape is socially acceptable / encouraged that sexual assault occurs.
I don't know about you, but to me, this sounds like more post-modern utopian lunacy, even without bothering to check any data.
They only have power if you give them power, by way of being told what they mean or interpreting them. You can teach a little kid to say fuck and as long as you don't react negatively they won't consider it a bad word.
Then he's 16 and says it to his boss on his first day of work and wonders why he's fired.
Words have CULTURAL meaning, not just personal meaning.
Yes, and the Dickwolf shirt didn't have the cultural meaning of "Hey, I support 'Team Rapist'" until the blog connected the two.
Depending on how you define "rape culture" I would say it does exist, but not equally everywhere. I saw some fucked up things when I worked for the rape counseling center part of the YWCA, and I was only front desk actually talked to patients/victims for like a month (I was a computer technician but occasionally did data entry and scheduling).
The number of teenage girls that are terrified to report rape in a decent sized city is fucking staggering
Edit: Allow me to elaborate, terrified of what their parents/peers will think, "oh she's a slut", "how could you go into his house what did you think would happen?!" etc
It's not sarcasm. The twitter feed is sarcasm. The strip is faux concern. And integral to the humor of faux concern is the notion that actual concern is foolish and contemptible.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
Yes, and you're almost there.
Are they trivializing the rape victim who privately emailed his / her concerns, or the people who publicly accused them of promoting rape? The correct answer, based on the words of the comic, is the latter. Look at the text of the last panel.
If they were trivializing rape victims in general, the comic would look radically different and being pretty dickish by my standards, but they weren't.
If you look at the language in Shakesville and some of the other sites criticizing them, it's deliberately confrontational and offensive. Which, kudos on them for being so if they want, but the thing that grates on many people, such as myself, is they take such umbrage when other people get even halfway. The PA strip takes a shot at them for being such epic geese.
Depending on how you define "rape culture" I would say it does exist, but not equally everywhere. I saw some fucked up things when I worked for the rape counseling center part of the YWCA, and I was only front desk actually talked to patients/victims for like a month.
The number of teenage girls that are terrified to report rape in a decent sized city is fucking staggering
Edit: Allow me to elaborate, terrified of what their parents/peers will think, "oh she's a slut", "how could you go into his house what did you think would happen?!" etc
True, and that has absolutely nothing to do with dickwolves, which is my complaint about this whole teacup sized tempest.
Oh I totally agree, dickwolves has nothing to do with that, socially conservative values amongst parents and ridiculous social mores that have no place in 2011 are responsible
The problem is when what I describe gets attached to something like Dickwolves, its so completely missing the point.
Posts
See, sometimes I think Shakesville is a over-the-top. Unnecessarily shrill. Too quick on the offense.
Then I read ignorance like this, and I'm suddenly a lot more sympathetic about what they do over there.
You may have been trolled, just throwing that out there.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/13/
http://twitter.com/cwgabriel/status/32525071176179712
I beg to differ.
Edit in response to editing:
Sorry, but I'm a customer, and while I'm not outraged, I'm disappointed enough to say so.
I still don't agree, all they were doing was defending themselves by attacking their attackers.
It was stupid, but if that trivializes rape to you, then holy hell, I do not follow your logic at all.
Considering that the people accusing them of trivializing rape, consider making a second account on an internet forum the same as rape, I'd say G&T are pretty fucking far away from trivializing rape, in comparison to the accusers.
Ignore Shakes. The women/progressive gamers who are making this content go viral don't believe all men are rapists. They do have a sense of humour and they do enjoy reading Penny Arcade. They probably didn't give a fuck about the original comic. They do care about the response from T&G , the atmosphere at PAX, and gamer culture as a whole.
Melissa McEwan won't be and will never be at PAX. So... ignore... Shakesville.
The Federal Government does not care if Penny Arcade sells a Dickwolf t-shirt. Mike and Jerry care about PAX, and they chose to take it down from the store.
Reword for clarity: It is worth talking about how my wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt might affect the community at PAX. I have the right to wear what I like. I also have the right to be a dick(wolf?). It's worth talking about when to exercise these rights.
Breakdown:
(1) I have the privilege to wear what I like
(2) This privilege is not universal
(3) Example relevant to the issue at hand
Implication: My focus on excercising said privilege might be construed as insensitive given the issue at hand.
Possible Argument:
ME: The most important issue here is my right to act as I like (wear my dickwolves t-shirt)
FEMINIST CRITIC: Your t-shirt reflects a culture that assumes some people ought not to act as they like (lest they be legitimate targets of sexual aggression). If you value your right, you ought not to promote a culture that makes it difficult for others to claim the same right.
The point here is to suggest that the debate isn't about Meany Melissa poo-pooing on our precious t-shirt. Instead, it's debate between gamers about gamer culture. As for /b/ ...
Pause while wife goes and makes me a sammich.
You aren't - for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt. You might be perceived as one for strutting around PAX all "herderp Dickwolves!"
There's a myriad of reasons for someone to want the shirt besides cheering on rape, but her insistence that cheering on rape is the only reason someone would buy the shirt and the subsequent fallout (including making a counterpoint shirt to drive the point home) now has made wearing that shirt make you an accessory to being a rape apologist no matter your intent was for purchasing it. People could have worn the shirts at PAX and not had any explicit issues, but now that this argument has erupted again anyone there wearing the shirt maliciously or not will be looked down upon. She's injected hostility into a place where there was none before.
They're self-evidently attacking ridiculous overreactions rather than the act of rape itself or the severity of it. "Death of the Author" and all that, but it is on you if you decide to take what someone says and run with it.
Yes, so ignorant: You ever been to Africa, where a very real culture exists that encourages the sexual assault of women? I certainly have.
There is not a a 'rape culture' in the western world (in the United States, for example, rape has declined by more than 60% since 1993). It's seen as morally reprehensible, persecuted as a serious crime and condemned by anyone who doesn't have extraordinary social problems.
So what about that is 'ignorant'?
Go check the stats, since apparently you're not aware of the incredibly rapid decline of rape (among other violent crimes) in the west.
Trivializing Rape: A Primer
"I do not approve of rape, but I do not believe that humor involving the subject of rape is necessarily condoning rape" - NOT trivializing rape
"Ha ha! You silly rape victims! We hate rapers and all the rapity rape rape they rape! Now I have to go encourage people to rape, because I'm such a rape promoter! Ha ha!" - Trivializing rape.
This service brought to you by the American Council For Things That Should Be Pretty Obvious
"Well are you really going to press charges Susie? I mean we all know what you are like and he's the captain of the football team, he could have any girl he wants, you really think anyone will believe you?" - THAT is trivializing rape, and that happened all the fucking time not so long ago. By making a fuss over nothing, I would put forward, the cause is being moved backward by ignoring what really happens.
I think he's using sarcasm in the form of "Fuck this shit. People are calling me a rape apologist. Fuck you person who doesn't know me." It seemed more exasperated to me than anything. If a person who is a victim of rape is calling someone a rape apologist if they are not a rape apologist is still not a good move.
Basically, I can see where he's coming from.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
You read the words, but you did not interpret them.
"Ha ha! You silly people, you think imaginary situations depicted in a comic that was intended to make a comment about morality and heroes in quests in mmos are actually reflective of reality, and we think you're stupid because of that. Now we'll pretend like we care what you think, and be extremely condescending because think you don't understand us, and you're probably crazy."
That's what that comic said not, "Hey rape victims, we're making fun of you because you were raped; rape rape rape."
IF that's how you want to take it, that's fine, but honestly... The door is that way, it's your choice to use it, not ours.
That's another thing. Now the shirt has another allure to it that it didn't before: scarsity and controversy. I've seen a lot more people express interest in purchasing a Dickwolves shirt now that it's no longer offered and is being villanized. People who own one and are keeping up with the controversy are also now more likely to wear it because now they're part of an exclusive club and/or out of spite towards the detractors. 4chan and others are even giving instructions on printing your own. It's a lose-lose situation for the two "sides" involved.
What do you mean "not so long ago"?
I mean, come on. And that's just a link from today.
I mean, wear the shirt all you want; I'd be happy to use it as a reason to avoid you. I guess it'd work out well for both of us.
Even I wouldn't go that far, but I'm astounded you'd be okay with that.
No, but I didn't posit any of those things - and it certainly IS strong evidence against the symbiosis of our culture with a 'rape culture'. And where is the evidence for the existence of this alleged demon? If it's not in the stats, it should be in things like mainstream periodicals, television networks, contemporary literature, etc. Where are the mainstream pro-rape lobbyists? Where are the openly pro-rape political parties? Were are the pro-rape op-eds and/or journalist columns?
They're conspicuously absent.
The 'rape culture' bogeyman is no better, and no more real, than the 'satanist conspiracy' that was alleged to surround things like fantasy novels & roleplaying games a few decades ago.
EDIT: And 'rape reporting isn't sufficiently reliable' is a weasel's way of claiming that the burden of proof belongs to anyone other than the person making the claim that rape culture is an existent thing to be concerned about. It's not much better than a NWO conspiracy promoter claiming that the evidenceisn't there because the government is covering it up.
Yes, a lot of sexual assault goes unreported, and police agencies do not have particularly good record keeping mechanisms - but the fact that data is hard to come by doesn't somehow excuse you from having to provide evidence for your claim.
I said almost, I wouldn't actually wear a dickwolves t-shirt, but I honestly cannot parse how it supports rape, the concept is so assbackward retarded that it is completely incompatible with my brain.
This is from someone in a town where you can probably get away with rape if the girl had an alcoholic beverage and rape is impossible if you're a guy - when places like this still exist in the United States that anyone would give a shit about a shirt (even if the shirt literally said "RAPE IS AWESOME GUYS!" its just a goddamn shirt, it doesn't really have any power!) boggles me. We have real problems regarding rape in much of the US, I mean cmon.
I just edited it, it was supposed to have a not before the quote.
Here's my exaggerated interpretation of the strip.
Here's an actual line from the strip:
Which of our versions is closer in form and content to the original?
And like I originally said, you only read the words, you did not interpret them.
That strip is not literal, it's sarcastic.
The words themselves do not DIRECTLY convey the message of the strip.
Yeah, words, symbols, and images don't have any power.
O_o
Considering that Jaydo explained the entire comic, and you took 1 line out of context your argument is crap. And his still explains the comic better even when you cherry picked your line to try and make your wrong opinion look right.
They only have power if you give them power, by way of being told what they mean or interpreting them. You can teach a little kid to say fuck and as long as you don't react negatively they won't consider it a bad word.
No, a shirt with "Dickwolves" on it doesn't have any power. If Dickwolves started being worn by some "Rape Party" who put forth the message of how once the woman agrees to enter your home its not rape, or something else that a nontrivial number of people actually believe and it gains traction and recognition, then maybe it would gain some power?
I don't see that happening though.
It is, in a word, trivializing.
I don't think anyone here agrees with your interpretation, and if they do, I encourage them to post and elaborate on it.
Then he's 16 and says it to his boss on his first day of work and wonders why he's fired.
Words have CULTURAL meaning, not just personal meaning.
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize today is the day we decide what the word "sarcasm" means based on popular vote.
Don't wear your dickwolf t-shirt to PAX.
Don't wear your pedobear t-shirt when you take your kid to day care.
Christ I couldn't even wear a "Rogues do it from behind" T-shirt (which... does that one promote rape culture or just anal sex culture? given that rogues are known for ambushing and whatnot?)
Okay - let's be clear here:
This fringe branch of feminism isn't just claiming that sexual and/or sexually violent imagery/messages exert influence (which would be a true but trivial claim). They are claiming that a culture of rape exists, and that these messages/images are a symptom of that culture and that you are unethically participating in this culture of rape by not actively resisting it's temptations.
Without the rape culture, rape and sexual assault would disappear; it's only because men think that rape is socially acceptable / encouraged that sexual assault occurs.
I don't know about you, but to me, this sounds like more post-modern utopian lunacy, even without bothering to check any data.
Yes, and the Dickwolf shirt didn't have the cultural meaning of "Hey, I support 'Team Rapist'" until the blog connected the two.
The number of teenage girls that are terrified to report rape in a decent sized city is fucking staggering
Edit: Allow me to elaborate, terrified of what their parents/peers will think, "oh she's a slut", "how could you go into his house what did you think would happen?!" etc
Yes, and you're almost there.
Are they trivializing the rape victim who privately emailed his / her concerns, or the people who publicly accused them of promoting rape? The correct answer, based on the words of the comic, is the latter. Look at the text of the last panel.
If they were trivializing rape victims in general, the comic would look radically different and being pretty dickish by my standards, but they weren't.
If you look at the language in Shakesville and some of the other sites criticizing them, it's deliberately confrontational and offensive. Which, kudos on them for being so if they want, but the thing that grates on many people, such as myself, is they take such umbrage when other people get even halfway. The PA strip takes a shot at them for being such epic geese.
True, and that has absolutely nothing to do with dickwolves, which is my complaint about this whole teacup sized tempest.
The problem is when what I describe gets attached to something like Dickwolves, its so completely missing the point.