The tee-shirt was pretty tasteless and was less related to the original strip and more to merchandised spite. Like others I found the first strip to be pretty funny. The second strip was rather insensitive and not the best way that G&T could have handled the situation. However the second strip was understandable as a result of the high emotions and exaggerations involved. Even though I love Penny Arcade, G&T, and thought the first strip was funny, it's hard for me to look at the Dickwolves shirt, know the controversy that spawned it, and not come to the implication that it was at worst "Go Team Rapist" and at best "fuck those humorless feminists."
Well, not as if the same group talking theoretically about advancing culture has much crossover with the raping group.
I'm not sure I agree.
Much crossover? I would think humanitarian beliefs and education were the very weapons against rape. Which would, I would think, precede the talk about moving culture past a broad acceptance of rape humor.
Well, not as if the same group talking theoretically about advancing culture has much crossover with the raping group.
I'm not sure I agree.
Much crossover? I would think humanitarian beliefs and education were the very weapons against rape. Which would, I would think, precede the talk about moving culture past a broad acceptance of rape humor.
People have a remarkable ability to rationalize conflicting ideas, especially on this particular topic.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It's probably worth mentioning that in a post-rape culture noone would have reason to think of rape as a "women's issue" Actually, I think that would get us a pretty long way.
I thought we were at that point, personally.
Apologies, rephrase for clarity. It remains difficult to think of rape as something other than a "women's issue" because:
1) It is still the case that a far greater proportion of rape survivors are women. Think assumptions that make sexual aggression against women "normal" when similar aggression against men would be taboo.
2) It is still the case that "masculinity" is difficult to reconcile with the notion of a "male" rape survivor. Either men "can't" be assaulted or the men who are assaulted are not "real men." Think Deliverance, here. Think "I made him my bitch."
Resolve these two issues and you get a pretty long way in managing the relationship between rape and culture.
Maybe another rephrase: a post-rape culture would be a culture where noone would have reason to think of rape as a "gender issue."
Well, not as if the same group talking theoretically about advancing culture has much crossover with the raping group.
I'm not sure I agree.
Much crossover? I would think humanitarian beliefs and education were the very weapons against rape. Which would, I would think, precede the talk about moving culture past a broad acceptance of rape humor.
People have a remarkable ability to rationalize conflicting ideas, especially on this particular topic.
How do we address rape fantasies? Are they part of human nature or a social byproduct? And how does the answer to that affect our vision of this post-rape future?
Long time PA Forum reader, infrequent poster. I would like to add my two cents here.
Firstly, THIS, is a rape joke. There is nothing else this joke could have possibly been implying. Even remotely. It was NOT funny and actually was the very last episode of Family Guy I ever watched. I don't think I am easily offended, but rape is not a funny thing to me. Nor should it be to anyone.
Posting a Family Guy clip and saying "This joke isn't funny" isn't saying much. FG couldn't make clowns hitting each other with pies funny these days.
How do we address rape fantasies? Are they part of human nature or a social byproduct? And how does the answer to that affect our vision of this post-rape future?
Not sure any of that matters. Who knows what sorts of things people would fantasize about if we lived in a different culture. Truthfully, there's nothing wrong with fantasy (about anything). It is, however, wrong to indulge in a fantasy life if it then becomes more difficult to control impulses that are objectionable.
How do we address rape fantasies? Are they part of human nature or a social byproduct? And how does the answer to that affect our vision of this post-rape future?
Not sure any of that matters. Who knows what sorts of things people would fantasize about if we lived in a different culture. Truthfully, there's nothing wrong with fantasy (about anything). It is, however, wrong to indulge in a fantasy life if it then becomes more difficult to control impulses that are objectionable.
I think if we say rape fantasies are natural it impacts the notion of rape's "role" in culture. Certainly there are fewer people with "murder" fantasies. Definitely not as acceptable or common, aye?
Just saying - talk about "fantasy" doesn't seem to add anything. People can rape without premeditation and people can fantasize about rape without actually raping.
A healthy culture wouldn't assume the fact that someone has a certain fantasy gives them sufficient reason to act on that fantasy. Beyond that, a person's fantasy life is irrelevant.
The second comic was fine. Rape no more was funny, and an example of a clear absurdity that never needed be said, as well highlight the obvious null effect their comic could possibly have on the world.
The t-shirt was certainly mockingly aimed at knee-jerk, overly sensitive detractors. But maybe more thought could have gone into the fact that some of those people could have been rape survivors or family of. A very, very small percent of the vocal people however, I would bet.
But... That is just penny arcade... I don't know.
Wasn't the T-Shirt released months later?
The 2 comics are back-to-back, but I'm pretty sure the T-Shirt came much latter and was released based on the idea that Dickwolves is a funny word.
Shit, the first comic came out 6 months ago. I was shocked to see it on the front page of D&D since I thought everyone got tired of going in circles discussing it ages ago.
I'm not sure. Possibly a culture in which it's approximately as acceptable to joke that you'll rape somebody as it is now to joke that you'll molest a child, or joke that you'll lynch a black person.
I'd buy that. How do we get there though? I really don't think furious brow beating changes cultural attitudes that quickly.
Depends on how quickly you're talking. I don't think anybody's saying that realistically within 5-10 years rape jokes will be a thing of the past. But we got to where we are about lynching jokes by a lot of black people working very hard and doing and saying things that folks rather wished they wouldn't, getting the NAACP to challenge cases all over the place, etc. In other words the kind of "oversensitive" behavior people think feminist and ally groups are doing today.
So, another 30 years of that and we might start to approach it.
The problem with doing away with rape jokes is that rape is funny. In fact it's hilarious. To paraphrase Mel Brooks, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and get raped by a mythological creature composed entirely of erect phalluses."
A number of years ago, when I was not quite so cynical and morbid yet, there aired a South Park episode wherein Cartman is tormented by a boy named Scott Tenorman. At the end of the episode, instead of one of them receiving an ultimate humiliation, Cartman reveals his real plan was to murder Scott's parents, make them into chili, and feed them to him. Cartman succeeded in this. After watching it I didn't laugh. I was taken aback. I was shocked. I had to ask myself, "Was it okay for them to make that joke?" The conclusion I reached was yes, yes it was. And it was very funny.
I may be a dreamer, but I'd like to believe that we can deal with the silly geese who think a woman cannot say no just because she's a little cockthirsty without sacrificing our freedom to make really awful jokes. And even someday chicks will be acceptable targets for slapstick outside of "edgy" comedies.
How do we address rape fantasies? Are they part of human nature or a social byproduct? And how does the answer to that affect our vision of this post-rape future?
Not sure any of that matters. Who knows what sorts of things people would fantasize about if we lived in a different culture. Truthfully, there's nothing wrong with fantasy (about anything). It is, however, wrong to indulge in a fantasy life if it then becomes more difficult to control impulses that are objectionable.
I think if we say rape fantasies are natural it impacts the notion of rape's "role" in culture. Certainly there are fewer people with "murder" fantasies. Definitely not as acceptable or common, aye?
What do you mean there are fewer people with murder fantasies? Haven't you ever been employed?
Further, there are people who fantasize about being the victim of a rape. Fantasies and fetishes are complicated and weird. Seriously.
Squigie on
Warning: the preceding post may be more sarcastic than it appears. Proceed at own risk. Individual results may vary. Offers not valid in Canada or where prohibited by fraud statutes.
Rape fantasies are primarily sexual, and bear about as much resemblence to actual rape as I do to Charlize Theron. Rape itself is primarily not sexual. Its about control and power, and not in a fun way. That's how you distinguish the two.
And if this distinction is lost on you, you have problems.
The problem with doing away with rape jokes is that rape is funny
I wonder what you mean by this. Do you mean that some or all rape jokes are funny? If so, can you think of a situation where a rape joke wouldn't be funny?
Or do you mean that the actual act of rape is funny?
The first two questions are relevant to the discussion. Answering yes to the last question would be, um, controversial.
I suppose I should make my position post in here, since I refuse to post in that ridiculous modforum thread.
Original comic: not really offensive at all. And it was latched on to when other comics weren't by chance, for those people who apparently still don't understand social networks and how memes propagate virally. Get over it. However, people who've been raped are allowed to upset about it, and are allowed to deal with it in whatever way helps them.
Response comic: Weak-ass shit, also PR fail. A prime example of allegedly progressive dudes getting stupidly defensive when called upon to actually be, you know, progressive. They're hardly the first guys ever to fail in this manner; we've had the Daily Show and the Moore/Olbermann thing just in the last what, six months? And the history of minority issues being marginalised by the progressive movement is as old as the progressive movement itself. There's always something more important than women, than crips, than coloured folk. That doesn't make it ok, though. It would have been so, so easy for PA to come through this smelling like roses, but they dived right into the pigshit instead.
T-shirt: Further fail. As many others have pointed out, managed to strip the context that made the original comic non-offensive away, and implicitly identified the wearer with the side of the dickwolves, the exact opposite of the comic's intent. Hamfistedly stupid, and all money invested in the idea should be donated to an appropriate charity posthaste.
Telling upset people that they can be blacklisted from PAX on request? What in the I don't even know just... this is the stuff professional PR people have recurrent sweaty nightmares about.
People who can't manage to defend the comic and/or PA without indulging in misogyny, hyperliteralism, failure to understand the Constitution, and a wide range of logical fallacies: I hate all of you so much I hardly need to eat, because I'm fuelled by hate. I want you to live long, long lives filled with misery and depressing events. If I could afford it, I'd hire a guy to come over to your house and shit on your front doorstep every night. I'd supply them with beans and fibre and eggs and a fancy ninja suit to make sure that that happened. You're lucky I'm poor, and far away.
That is all.
The Cat on
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Burden of ProofYou three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
You can't expect me to know what freedom of speech actually means, I was educated by the American public school system.
Rape fantasies are primarily sexual, and bear about as much resemblence to actual rape as I do to Charlize Theron. Rape itself is primarily not sexual. Its about control and power, and not in a fun way. That's how you distinguish the two.
And if this distinction is lost on you, you have problems.
So how do rape fantasies feed into Rape Culture?
Presumably, actual rape is the problem (and all instances of misogyny thereof which results in the societal oppression of a gender) - does rape fantasy play into the Culture, or is it an acceptable side event due to its fantastical nature and underlying sexual motive?
Ie does the underlying motive/intent of the subject matter, or is the topic itself the overriding consideration?
Rape fantasies are primarily sexual, and bear about as much resemblence to actual rape as I do to Charlize Theron. Rape itself is primarily not sexual. Its about control and power, and not in a fun way. That's how you distinguish the two.
And if this distinction is lost on you, you have problems.
So how do rape fantasies feed into Rape Culture?
Presumably, actual rape is the problem (and all instances of misogyny thereof which results in the societal oppression of a gender) - does rape fantasy play into the Culture, or is it an acceptable side event due to its fantastical nature and underlying sexual motive?
Ie does the underlying motive/intent of the subject matter, or is the topic itself the overriding consideration?
Who knows. I don't think we're capable of researching it objectively. Its my personal opinion that such fantasies are a result of living in a culture where sexual relations and power relations are very closely intertwined, and not really a cause of anything except a rise in the share price of fuzzy-handcuffs companies.
I didn't realize that the controversy had been so persistent and long lasting until I read the debacle timeline. What I really hate the most about PA's antagonistic response to people who object (the actual comic was nothing and should have been forgotten) is what it has inspired in people. People basically rallied behind PA's mean-spirited response to their critics and used it as an excuse to become the worst kind of trolls. When people start to make twitter accounts called "team rape" to harass critics, or demanding proof that someone is a rape survivor in your name, maybe it's time to rethink the message you're sending out there. Even though the comic is largely inoffensive and inconsequential, the way they've dealt with it might actually be perpetuating the cavalier treatment of rape.
There really is no reason for PA to have to "hit back" against small vocal minorities with small blogs. It's not a fair fight and makes them look like bullies when they're a big company with a heavy punch.
Response comic: Weak-ass shit, also PR fail. A prime example of allegedly progressive dudes getting stupidly defensive when called upon to actually be, you know, progressive. They're hardly the first guys ever to fail in this manner; we've had the Daily Show and the Moore/Olbermann thing just in the last what, six months? And the history of minority issues being marginalised by the progressive movement is as old as the progressive movement itself. There's always something more important than women, than crips, than coloured folk. That doesn't make it ok, though. It would have been so, so easy for PA to come through this smelling like roses, but they dived right into the pigshit instead.
I love seeing leftists at each others' throats for not being progressive enough.
While the Daily Show is certainly an agenda-driven program, portraying the Penny Arcade comic as such is stretching things. You seriously think that the Penny Arcade comic is part of the "progressive movement"? That they felt a duty to respond to an insane reaction shows that they were probably genuinely confused to be attacked by people who basically share the same worldview. The end response seems to have been the most sane, however: filter out the nonsense and continue as they were. And that is why I love Penny Arcade.
I really wouldn't source the blog that thought there were secret messages in the choice of his shuffled playlist.
That is definitely a huge stretch, but if it's supposed to be a document of what people think or believe, right or wrong, then I can see why it would be listed.
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
What's sort of interesting, though, is that you (or at least I) see very little outcry about jokes pertaining to prison rape. And I would argue that every complaint about "rape culture" involving female victims applies even more so to prison rape. Prison rape is accepted, even condoned and encouraged, in a way that conventional rape typically isn't. It's joked about constantly in popular media. And this seems to get a pass.
Not among feminist bloggers though, and not among genuinely progressive organisations. The report 'not part of my sentence' was published by Amnesty, for instance, and deals with prison rape in general as well as the treatment of women in custody. In fact, until I googled it just now, I thought the body of the report was primarily about prison rape and not about women specifically at all, which indicates that the way it was promoted actually emphasized the plight of men in the US prison system over women. That's weird...
Really, I think it all boils down to absolute stupidity on PA's part for even choosing to respond to a very thin minority of objectors on the comics topic. Said thin minority did not understand that the comic was not about rape, but was about the idiocy involved in quest lines within MMO's where you only need to gain X amount of Y resource. The groups who have been offended by this comic have totally missed the point of it, and ergo they are at fault.
PA is at fault meanwhile for spinning this way out of control. Had the status quo continued after the comic, these topics wouldn't have been made, the complaints would have died out and everything would have went back to normal. Instead PA chose to respond in a slapstick and frankly trollish manner that has resulted in the comic becoming infamous. PA is at fault for not managing this particular topic the same way it managed the fruit fucker, or the countless jokes that could be seen in bad taste. PA is at fault for blowing this out of proportion.
When the majority of readers understand the joke without getting offended, you don't respond to the minority who don't get it, and more than likely never will.
Response comic: Weak-ass shit, also PR fail. A prime example of allegedly progressive dudes getting stupidly defensive when called upon to actually be, you know, progressive. They're hardly the first guys ever to fail in this manner; we've had the Daily Show and the Moore/Olbermann thing just in the last what, six months? And the history of minority issues being marginalised by the progressive movement is as old as the progressive movement itself. There's always something more important than women, than crips, than coloured folk. That doesn't make it ok, though. It would have been so, so easy for PA to come through this smelling like roses, but they dived right into the pigshit instead.
I love seeing leftists at each others' throats for not being progressive enough.
While the Daily Show is certainly an agenda-driven program, portraying the Penny Arcade comic as such is stretching things. You seriously think that the Penny Arcade comic is part of the "progressive movement"? That they felt a duty to respond to an insane reaction shows that they were probably genuinely confused to be attacked by people who basically share the same worldview. The end response seems to have been the most sane, however: filter out the nonsense and continue as they were. And that is why I love Penny Arcade.
Oh, I'm so glad I made you happy! That's why I post, you know.
They were horribly offended by the accusation of insensitivity, and are one of the better groups around at making con spaces friendly to everyone. And I think that after reading them for years I've got a fair sense of them as not being, you know, redstate wingnuts. That's enough to qualify as progressive for the purposes of this discussion. I know perfectly well that they were confused; that's evident in their very poor handling of the situation. But "filter out the nonsense"? That didn't happen. Your framing of the situation is at best faulty and at worst deliberately misrepresenting the situation.
Rape fantasies are primarily sexual, and bear about as much resemblence to actual rape as I do to Charlize Theron. Rape itself is primarily not sexual. Its about control and power, and not in a fun way. That's how you distinguish the two.
And if this distinction is lost on you, you have problems.
So how do rape fantasies feed into Rape Culture?
Presumably, actual rape is the problem (and all instances of misogyny thereof which results in the societal oppression of a gender) - does rape fantasy play into the Culture, or is it an acceptable side event due to its fantastical nature and underlying sexual motive?
Ie does the underlying motive/intent of the subject matter, or is the topic itself the overriding consideration?
Who knows. I don't think we're capable of researching it objectively. Its my personal opinion that such fantasies are a result of living in a culture where sexual relations and power relations are very closely intertwined, and not really a cause of anything except a rise in the share price of fuzzy-handcuffs companies.
Why are you asking the question?
Well its an important subject - I think in a lot of ways humor, done correctly can act to remove entrenched power structures through satire... but of course before you can use humor as a weapon in that context you need to understand the dimension of the problem first.
Knowing where the boundaries lie is important - eg jokes about frustrated rape fantasies may be within bounds, but other types of jokes which deal with rape de facto may not be appropriate.
People laugh at jokes such as these due to their absurdity... in some contexts this absurdity is useful, in others it is offensive... really that is a legitimate facet of humor (to push the boundaries), but in doing so its also important to reflexively consider the result of that action as well.
I really wouldn't source the blog that thought there were secret messages in the choice of his shuffled playlist.
What use is internet drama, if you don't have a scrap book to look back on?
Says the fellow who was carded for linking the counter-speech tumblr.
On topic - PR bungles aside, there's no need for the "dickwolves controversy" to continue. Gabe lost an opportunity to be awesome, the greater fuckwad theorem was confirmed by anons everywhere, a t-shirt was lost, some conciousness was raised, and time for everyone to get together in person.
I really wouldn't source the blog that thought there were secret messages in the choice of his shuffled playlist.
What use is internet drama, if you don't have a scrap book to look back on?
Says the fellow who was carded for linking the counter-speech tubmlr.
On topic - PR bungles aside, there's no need for the "dickwolves controversy" to continue. Gabe lost an opportunity to be awesome, the greater fuckwad theorem was confirmed by anons everywhere, a t-shirt was lost, some conciousness was raised, and time for everyone to get together in person.
I don't get it either.
The fact that the poor NPCs are being raped by the dickwolves is kinda besides the point and not at all integral to the joke which is about the way quests are designed.
The use of "rape" is there to imply that shit is bad - which rape is.
But this is the point they are making! That rape isn't a requirement as part of the joke: That rape is merely being used in the same "humorous" context that video game players say, "I RAEPED YOU" when they kill their opponent.
That is a valid point, as the supporters of the comic have themselves pointed out: There is no need for the word "rape" to be in there.
That some people have trauma--or simply are sensitive to this--is not funny, either, and yet Mike treated it as funny.
Full disclosure: I read the comic and didn't think about it as offensive, although I did wince when I read "raped to sleep". When I first read the complaints, I thought, "Really? Get over it." When I saw Mike's response to some pretty earnest and heart-felt accounts of "I feel betrayed", I realized that he was on the wrong side.
While I think some of the initial criticism he received was over the top, I think his response was without any merit at all, and further made the point that his critics were making.
With that said, I think some of his critics have completely jumped the shark (Being upset about his music playlist or the "fucknopennyarcade" tumblr for instance) and owe Mike an apology.
Ultimately, I think Mike should just say, "I'm sorry. My response was pretty insensitive. Honestly, we're going to joke about things that might be pretty upsetting here sometimes. If you don't want to read, you don't have to. I never really thought that anyone would consider PA a 'safe' place to go for anything, so I apologize to those people who feel betrayed now. My initial sarcasm was just defensive posturing. Like I said, I really never realized that anyone would feel 'safe' reading comics here, and I had no idea I was going to hurt people. I don't mind offending people, but I do honestly feel badly about hurting people, and I hope that my apology makes it up to them.
With that said, we'll continue using things that some people may be uncomfortable with in the comic. I'd recommend not reading it if the Dickwolves comic upset you."
I agree with Streever. I thought nothing of the strip when I first read it and I had to go back and read it again when I heard people were offended. I was surprised that people got so upset by it.
However, the fallout with the Dickwolves T-Shirt and then some of Gabes responses on Twitter recently made for some pretty uncomfortable reading.
Long time PA Forum reader, infrequent poster. I would like to add my two cents here.
Firstly, THIS, is a rape joke. There is nothing else this joke could have possibly been implying. Even remotely. It was NOT funny and actually was the very last episode of Family Guy I ever watched. I don't think I am easily offended, but rape is not a funny thing to me. Nor should it be to anyone.
Posting a Family Guy clip and saying "This joke isn't funny" isn't saying much. FG couldn't make clowns hitting each other with pies funny these days.
IT was the joke I was posting, more than commenting on FG. You seem to have missed the point.
Perhaps I am missing it now, but, to me, ALL of this seems to stem from the belief that M&J made a joke about rape or that they illustrated that rape is in anyway funny. Some going so far as to then call them "rape supporters". I wanted that terrible FG joke to contrast with the comic. The comic referenced rape. Nothing more. At all. It was a ridiculous setting and so, of course, the rape reference was also ridiculous. If a rape victim, or the family there of was offended by this, they are completely totally in there rights to be. I am not sure, however, they they were within there rights to attack M&J by calling them "rape supporters". That is some damned offensive shit right there. This, I believe, is what sparked the response comic. As to the shirt, I still stand by they M&J were merely capitalizing on something they found to be ridiculous.
My thoughts are, that on all of this, you can question ONLY if M&J should have been more responsible in general. Especially considering there standing in the community at large. To question whether any of this "humour" supports a "rape culture" is completely unfair, and offensive to the artists. Many here seem to be getting this, but many are not. Am I going to far to say I am getting a "Won't someone think of the children?!" vibe from those people?
ShadowBlade on
This world needs a new philosophy. No more, "Could be worse..." I say SHOULD BE BETTER!
I don't think he should apologize to anyone, honestly. The joke was funny, and I think you're looking far too into it.
Is he making a joke about rape culture? No, maybe if you really stretch it and look for a hidden meaning I guess you could. Is he making a joke about how players play MMOs and uses rape to highlight the terribleness of players? Yeah, I'd say that's more appropriate.
I think the shirt was more of a kneejerk "I really like this word, and it'd be a cool looking mascot" rather than "olol screw those people, dickwovles all up ins!"
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
You don't turn on the TV and see Regis crack a rape joke. The dickwolves comic in general doesn't use rape as a joke either. The joke is about how unsympathetic a gamer can be to a rape victim because they've accomplished a task and the victim can't be used to further a goal.
Shouldn't that be used to highlight a problem we have in this country with the tepid, unsympathetic responses rape victims sometimes receive?
Saying "rape jokes aren't cool" isn't a problem. We're already on a path in this country that shames people for saying really insensitive things. But we still have acceptable jokes based on race.
Demanding that dialog and rhetoric be shaped a certain way doesn't fix the problem or make it go away. Mis-characterizing a comic definitely doesn't help the cause. Mis-characterizing and sensationalizing the problem in our country doesn't help the cause. Rehashing decades old "proof" that discussing "topic" is bad because it will influence "person" to commit "topic" definitely doesn't help.
Didn't work for Tipper Gore in the 80s or Jack Thompson in the 90s and 00s.
If someone were waging a campaign against my character and ethics, I might find it hard not to be a jerk. It's a normal response.
Completely agree. Does M&J's status change how they should have handled it though, or should the viewers of this site be expected to know who they are and that the response was completely in character? I think I lean towards the latter myself.
ShadowBlade on
This world needs a new philosophy. No more, "Could be worse..." I say SHOULD BE BETTER!
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I don't think there's anything wrong with the original comic. The t-shirt, however, is basically a Dickwolves team jersey and the purpose of team jerseys is to show support for your team. Dickwolves rape people. I would be disgusted by any person who wore such a shirt.
I don't think he should apologize to anyone, honestly. The joke was funny, and I think you're looking far too into it.
Is he making a joke about rape culture? No, maybe if you really stretch it and look for a hidden meaning I guess you could. Is he making a joke about how players play MMOs and uses rape to highlight the terribleness of players? Yeah, I'd say that's more appropriate.
I think the shirt was more of a kneejerk "I really like this word, and it'd be a cool looking mascot" rather than "olol screw those people, dickwovles all up ins!"
If you can't recognize deliberate trolling outside the internet, then you may need like, a personal interaction trainer.
You don't turn on the TV and see Regis crack a rape joke. The dickwolves comic in general doesn't use rape as a joke either. The joke is about how unsympathetic a gamer can be to a rape victim because they've accomplished a task and the victim can't be used to further a goal.
Shouldn't that be used to highlight a problem we have in this country with the tepid, unsympathetic responses rape victims sometimes receive?
Saying "rape jokes aren't cool" isn't a problem. We're already on a path in this country that shames people for saying really insensitive things. But we still have acceptable jokes based on race.
Demanding that dialog and rhetoric be shaped a certain way doesn't fix the problem or make it go away. Mis-characterizing a comic definitely doesn't help the cause. Mis-characterizing and sensationalizing the problem in our country doesn't help the cause. Rehashing decades old "proof" that discussing "topic" is bad because it will influence "person" to commit "topic" definitely doesn't help.
Didn't work for Tipper Gore in the 80s or Jack Thompson in the 90s and 00s.
EDIT
Oh no top of the page.
If G&T had taken the spin, I would have been very proud of them. Instead they decided to troll feminist bloggers and stoke the flames.
If someone were waging a campaign against my character and ethics, I might find it hard not to be a jerk. It's a normal response.
Completely agree. Does M&J's status change how they should have handled it though, or should the viewers of this site be expected to know who they are and that the response was completely in character? I think I lean towards the latter myself.
A reader of this comic should at least be aware of how their attitude depends on how you approach them.
Approach them politely, and you'll probably get your way. Approach them in a way that makes you look like a jerk, and you'll probably end up disbarred.
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I'm not sure I agree.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Much crossover? I would think humanitarian beliefs and education were the very weapons against rape. Which would, I would think, precede the talk about moving culture past a broad acceptance of rape humor.
People have a remarkable ability to rationalize conflicting ideas, especially on this particular topic.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Apologies, rephrase for clarity. It remains difficult to think of rape as something other than a "women's issue" because:
1) It is still the case that a far greater proportion of rape survivors are women. Think assumptions that make sexual aggression against women "normal" when similar aggression against men would be taboo.
2) It is still the case that "masculinity" is difficult to reconcile with the notion of a "male" rape survivor. Either men "can't" be assaulted or the men who are assaulted are not "real men." Think Deliverance, here. Think "I made him my bitch."
Resolve these two issues and you get a pretty long way in managing the relationship between rape and culture.
Maybe another rephrase: a post-rape culture would be a culture where noone would have reason to think of rape as a "gender issue."
How do we address rape fantasies? Are they part of human nature or a social byproduct? And how does the answer to that affect our vision of this post-rape future?
Posting a Family Guy clip and saying "This joke isn't funny" isn't saying much. FG couldn't make clowns hitting each other with pies funny these days.
I think if we say rape fantasies are natural it impacts the notion of rape's "role" in culture. Certainly there are fewer people with "murder" fantasies. Definitely not as acceptable or common, aye?
A healthy culture wouldn't assume the fact that someone has a certain fantasy gives them sufficient reason to act on that fantasy. Beyond that, a person's fantasy life is irrelevant.
Wasn't the T-Shirt released months later?
The 2 comics are back-to-back, but I'm pretty sure the T-Shirt came much latter and was released based on the idea that Dickwolves is a funny word.
Shit, the first comic came out 6 months ago. I was shocked to see it on the front page of D&D since I thought everyone got tired of going in circles discussing it ages ago.
The problem with doing away with rape jokes is that rape is funny. In fact it's hilarious. To paraphrase Mel Brooks, "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and get raped by a mythological creature composed entirely of erect phalluses."
A number of years ago, when I was not quite so cynical and morbid yet, there aired a South Park episode wherein Cartman is tormented by a boy named Scott Tenorman. At the end of the episode, instead of one of them receiving an ultimate humiliation, Cartman reveals his real plan was to murder Scott's parents, make them into chili, and feed them to him. Cartman succeeded in this. After watching it I didn't laugh. I was taken aback. I was shocked. I had to ask myself, "Was it okay for them to make that joke?" The conclusion I reached was yes, yes it was. And it was very funny.
I may be a dreamer, but I'd like to believe that we can deal with the silly geese who think a woman cannot say no just because she's a little cockthirsty without sacrificing our freedom to make really awful jokes. And even someday chicks will be acceptable targets for slapstick outside of "edgy" comedies.
What do you mean there are fewer people with murder fantasies? Haven't you ever been employed?
Further, there are people who fantasize about being the victim of a rape. Fantasies and fetishes are complicated and weird. Seriously.
And if this distinction is lost on you, you have problems.
I wonder what you mean by this. Do you mean that some or all rape jokes are funny? If so, can you think of a situation where a rape joke wouldn't be funny?
Or do you mean that the actual act of rape is funny?
The first two questions are relevant to the discussion. Answering yes to the last question would be, um, controversial.
Original comic: not really offensive at all. And it was latched on to when other comics weren't by chance, for those people who apparently still don't understand social networks and how memes propagate virally. Get over it. However, people who've been raped are allowed to upset about it, and are allowed to deal with it in whatever way helps them.
Response comic: Weak-ass shit, also PR fail. A prime example of allegedly progressive dudes getting stupidly defensive when called upon to actually be, you know, progressive. They're hardly the first guys ever to fail in this manner; we've had the Daily Show and the Moore/Olbermann thing just in the last what, six months? And the history of minority issues being marginalised by the progressive movement is as old as the progressive movement itself. There's always something more important than women, than crips, than coloured folk. That doesn't make it ok, though. It would have been so, so easy for PA to come through this smelling like roses, but they dived right into the pigshit instead.
T-shirt: Further fail. As many others have pointed out, managed to strip the context that made the original comic non-offensive away, and implicitly identified the wearer with the side of the dickwolves, the exact opposite of the comic's intent. Hamfistedly stupid, and all money invested in the idea should be donated to an appropriate charity posthaste.
Telling upset people that they can be blacklisted from PAX on request? What in the I don't even know just... this is the stuff professional PR people have recurrent sweaty nightmares about.
People who can't manage to defend the comic and/or PA without indulging in misogyny, hyperliteralism, failure to understand the Constitution, and a wide range of logical fallacies: I hate all of you so much I hardly need to eat, because I'm fuelled by hate. I want you to live long, long lives filled with misery and depressing events. If I could afford it, I'd hire a guy to come over to your house and shit on your front doorstep every night. I'd supply them with beans and fibre and eggs and a fancy ninja suit to make sure that that happened. You're lucky I'm poor, and far away.
That is all.
So how do rape fantasies feed into Rape Culture?
Presumably, actual rape is the problem (and all instances of misogyny thereof which results in the societal oppression of a gender) - does rape fantasy play into the Culture, or is it an acceptable side event due to its fantastical nature and underlying sexual motive?
Ie does the underlying motive/intent of the subject matter, or is the topic itself the overriding consideration?
Who knows. I don't think we're capable of researching it objectively. Its my personal opinion that such fantasies are a result of living in a culture where sexual relations and power relations are very closely intertwined, and not really a cause of anything except a rise in the share price of fuzzy-handcuffs companies.
Why are you asking the question?
There really is no reason for PA to have to "hit back" against small vocal minorities with small blogs. It's not a fair fight and makes them look like bullies when they're a big company with a heavy punch.
I love seeing leftists at each others' throats for not being progressive enough.
While the Daily Show is certainly an agenda-driven program, portraying the Penny Arcade comic as such is stretching things. You seriously think that the Penny Arcade comic is part of the "progressive movement"? That they felt a duty to respond to an insane reaction shows that they were probably genuinely confused to be attacked by people who basically share the same worldview. The end response seems to have been the most sane, however: filter out the nonsense and continue as they were. And that is why I love Penny Arcade.
That is definitely a huge stretch, but if it's supposed to be a document of what people think or believe, right or wrong, then I can see why it would be listed.
Not among feminist bloggers though, and not among genuinely progressive organisations. The report 'not part of my sentence' was published by Amnesty, for instance, and deals with prison rape in general as well as the treatment of women in custody. In fact, until I googled it just now, I thought the body of the report was primarily about prison rape and not about women specifically at all, which indicates that the way it was promoted actually emphasized the plight of men in the US prison system over women. That's weird...
PA is at fault meanwhile for spinning this way out of control. Had the status quo continued after the comic, these topics wouldn't have been made, the complaints would have died out and everything would have went back to normal. Instead PA chose to respond in a slapstick and frankly trollish manner that has resulted in the comic becoming infamous. PA is at fault for not managing this particular topic the same way it managed the fruit fucker, or the countless jokes that could be seen in bad taste. PA is at fault for blowing this out of proportion.
When the majority of readers understand the joke without getting offended, you don't respond to the minority who don't get it, and more than likely never will.
Oh, I'm so glad I made you happy! That's why I post, you know.
They were horribly offended by the accusation of insensitivity, and are one of the better groups around at making con spaces friendly to everyone. And I think that after reading them for years I've got a fair sense of them as not being, you know, redstate wingnuts. That's enough to qualify as progressive for the purposes of this discussion. I know perfectly well that they were confused; that's evident in their very poor handling of the situation. But "filter out the nonsense"? That didn't happen. Your framing of the situation is at best faulty and at worst deliberately misrepresenting the situation.
Well its an important subject - I think in a lot of ways humor, done correctly can act to remove entrenched power structures through satire... but of course before you can use humor as a weapon in that context you need to understand the dimension of the problem first.
Knowing where the boundaries lie is important - eg jokes about frustrated rape fantasies may be within bounds, but other types of jokes which deal with rape de facto may not be appropriate.
People laugh at jokes such as these due to their absurdity... in some contexts this absurdity is useful, in others it is offensive... really that is a legitimate facet of humor (to push the boundaries), but in doing so its also important to reflexively consider the result of that action as well.
What use is internet drama, if you don't have a scrap book to look back on?
Says the fellow who was carded for linking the counter-speech tumblr.
On topic - PR bungles aside, there's no need for the "dickwolves controversy" to continue. Gabe lost an opportunity to be awesome, the greater fuckwad theorem was confirmed by anons everywhere, a t-shirt was lost, some conciousness was raised, and time for everyone to get together in person.
Now this I can get behind.
But this is the point they are making! That rape isn't a requirement as part of the joke: That rape is merely being used in the same "humorous" context that video game players say, "I RAEPED YOU" when they kill their opponent.
That is a valid point, as the supporters of the comic have themselves pointed out: There is no need for the word "rape" to be in there.
That some people have trauma--or simply are sensitive to this--is not funny, either, and yet Mike treated it as funny.
Full disclosure: I read the comic and didn't think about it as offensive, although I did wince when I read "raped to sleep". When I first read the complaints, I thought, "Really? Get over it." When I saw Mike's response to some pretty earnest and heart-felt accounts of "I feel betrayed", I realized that he was on the wrong side.
While I think some of the initial criticism he received was over the top, I think his response was without any merit at all, and further made the point that his critics were making.
With that said, I think some of his critics have completely jumped the shark (Being upset about his music playlist or the "fucknopennyarcade" tumblr for instance) and owe Mike an apology.
Ultimately, I think Mike should just say, "I'm sorry. My response was pretty insensitive. Honestly, we're going to joke about things that might be pretty upsetting here sometimes. If you don't want to read, you don't have to. I never really thought that anyone would consider PA a 'safe' place to go for anything, so I apologize to those people who feel betrayed now. My initial sarcasm was just defensive posturing. Like I said, I really never realized that anyone would feel 'safe' reading comics here, and I had no idea I was going to hurt people. I don't mind offending people, but I do honestly feel badly about hurting people, and I hope that my apology makes it up to them.
With that said, we'll continue using things that some people may be uncomfortable with in the comic. I'd recommend not reading it if the Dickwolves comic upset you."
However, the fallout with the Dickwolves T-Shirt and then some of Gabes responses on Twitter recently made for some pretty uncomfortable reading.
IT was the joke I was posting, more than commenting on FG. You seem to have missed the point.
Perhaps I am missing it now, but, to me, ALL of this seems to stem from the belief that M&J made a joke about rape or that they illustrated that rape is in anyway funny. Some going so far as to then call them "rape supporters". I wanted that terrible FG joke to contrast with the comic. The comic referenced rape. Nothing more. At all. It was a ridiculous setting and so, of course, the rape reference was also ridiculous. If a rape victim, or the family there of was offended by this, they are completely totally in there rights to be. I am not sure, however, they they were within there rights to attack M&J by calling them "rape supporters". That is some damned offensive shit right there. This, I believe, is what sparked the response comic. As to the shirt, I still stand by they M&J were merely capitalizing on something they found to be ridiculous.
My thoughts are, that on all of this, you can question ONLY if M&J should have been more responsible in general. Especially considering there standing in the community at large. To question whether any of this "humour" supports a "rape culture" is completely unfair, and offensive to the artists. Many here seem to be getting this, but many are not. Am I going to far to say I am getting a "Won't someone think of the children?!" vibe from those people?
Is he making a joke about rape culture? No, maybe if you really stretch it and look for a hidden meaning I guess you could. Is he making a joke about how players play MMOs and uses rape to highlight the terribleness of players? Yeah, I'd say that's more appropriate.
I think the shirt was more of a kneejerk "I really like this word, and it'd be a cool looking mascot" rather than "olol screw those people, dickwovles all up ins!"
You don't turn on the TV and see Regis crack a rape joke. The dickwolves comic in general doesn't use rape as a joke either. The joke is about how unsympathetic a gamer can be to a rape victim because they've accomplished a task and the victim can't be used to further a goal.
Shouldn't that be used to highlight a problem we have in this country with the tepid, unsympathetic responses rape victims sometimes receive?
Saying "rape jokes aren't cool" isn't a problem. We're already on a path in this country that shames people for saying really insensitive things. But we still have acceptable jokes based on race.
Demanding that dialog and rhetoric be shaped a certain way doesn't fix the problem or make it go away. Mis-characterizing a comic definitely doesn't help the cause. Mis-characterizing and sensationalizing the problem in our country doesn't help the cause. Rehashing decades old "proof" that discussing "topic" is bad because it will influence "person" to commit "topic" definitely doesn't help.
Didn't work for Tipper Gore in the 80s or Jack Thompson in the 90s and 00s.
EDIT
Oh no top of the page.
Completely agree. Does M&J's status change how they should have handled it though, or should the viewers of this site be expected to know who they are and that the response was completely in character? I think I lean towards the latter myself.
A reader of this comic should at least be aware of how their attitude depends on how you approach them.
Approach them politely, and you'll probably get your way. Approach them in a way that makes you look like a jerk, and you'll probably end up disbarred.