I'm uncomfortable how quickly you jumped to that assertion, Undead Scotsman. I don't think anyone is unreasonably demanding some sort of censorship. You're conflating the right to say anything with the decision to say anything.
Did I bring up rights at all? I was asking in the context of what the person I quoted said, nothing more.
The Roman Polanski situation is Celebrity Worship, not "rape culture"
Rape culture is a term invented by victims who want to blame the world for them being raped instead of the person who actually raped them. "If only society had been like ________, then that perfectly nice guy/gal wouldn't have done that to me!"
This is wildly off-base. Rape Culture isn't about absolving individual rapists. Not even close. It's about identifying rape as a social problem, which is definitely is.
That's really my point, you can't cater to one group without denying the other.
Well in that case I'd cater more to the people who are made uncomfortable. I might not agree with taking down the DICKWOLVES shirt, but I can definitely understand why someone would be uncomfortable with people wearing it. We all know rape isn't a trivial thing, and because it's not a trivial thing, I think we should take it seriously when someone is made uncomfortable by the jokes.
We should ban Dark Knight Joker shirts and cosplay from PAX too, since it's a character that was only portrayed as an assassin, mass murderer, and overall psycho. It'll trigger the people who have had a friend or family member murdered. Strangely, nobody cares.
Perhaps you need a bit of a reminder.
The controversy is not about what the shirt triggers in certain people. It's about how Mike reacted to those people's complaints.
You don't need to be crass.
When you troll him over Twitter, you should expect vitriol in return. They should either unfollow him or have presented their points more calmly than starting 7 different "fuck PA" blogs and claiming that his randomly shuffled playlist while drawing a comic on-stream was a 'secret message' to the people on the other side of this. They're complaining about getting burned while throwing wood into the fucking bonfire, and I have zero sympathy for these kinds of people.
You're switching tangents here. I'm not defending any of their actions and if I were Mike, I would be annoyed too. Frankly, I didn't know about half that stuff, and that blows.
But you were talking about censorship. Suggesting that we should cease production of Joker t-shirts because he's a character that stands for murder, mayhem and anarchy.
I'm simply saying that I would like to think there are many, many people that were not offended by the shirt itself, but disappointed by Mike's reaction. In attempting to respond to the vocal minority, he in fact responded to a much greater audience, and it was dismissive, arrogant, and brash.
Just as Penny Arcade is not responsible for the few trolls that are bombarding Bits blog and those of other rape victims with violent messages, the juvenile people that declared war on Penny Arcade are not representative of the majority of rape victims who might have been offended by the comic, the shirt, both, or neither.
I feel that way. And I would bet you that my girlfriend does too.
many folks might wear a shirt with a picture of a murderer on it, or a quote like "Don't mess with me or I'll kill you," or similar silliness. I probably wouldn't bat an eye, and neither would you. Would someone wear a shirt that says "Don't mess with me or I will rape you"? Or "Stay in the kitchen or I'll rape you"? I would say no.
People condoning or normalizing or tacitly/explicitly encouraging murder is not a systemic problem. These things are a systemic problem with rape.
Aren't these contradictory statements?
People who have assaulted or murdered others and gotten away with it presumably don't walk around telling everyone how great a time it was, either.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
As someone who wasn't offended by the first comic but was disappointed by both the second comic and the shirt, I'd note that the first comic was an instance of offending someone by accident (with subject matter that had been covered before by the comic without major outcry), while the second was G&T addressing the people saying they were offended, and thumbing their noses at those people, and the shirt was an attempt to rally support among the fanbase to defend themselves (and possibly a fuck-you to the offended people as well).
Yeah, if you're an entertainer, god knows you're going to offend people at some point. For me personally, the line between fearless entertainer and jerk is how you react when people are offended by something you hadn't intended to offend them with. (If you're trying to offend people because you disagree with their politics or something, that's an entirely different matter, and it's clear that G&T weren't trying to start a fight with the rape survivor groups.)
A fearless entertainer moves on, or apologizes and says, "Sorry, I'll try not to do that again," and then moves on. A jerk gets nervous at being accused and essentially says, "I'll GIVE you something to be offended by," as a defensive reaction.
Or maybe I'm full of crap. I dunno.
This is more or less my stance. I had no problem with the comic and thought it was hilarious. The second comic was kind of in poor taste, but I can empathize a bit, because the original outcry to the first comic was generally unfair and reactionary. The response boiled down to "fuck you, you insensitive pro-rape shitwads," and would probably have been better realized as "while you probably meant no harm, this comic is offensive because of X, Y and Z." When someone overreacts to something you've done in which you meant no harm, it's natural to get defensive. It doesn't make it okay, but it's natural.
The biggest thing that got me over the controversy was the singling out of rape as, effectively, the worst thing that someone can possibly joke about. It really isn't. Objectively speaking, the Holocaust was a fuckton worse than any number of rapes. I don't think it's possible to deny this and claim to be a rational person. But Holocaust jokes draw virtually no ire. Part of this is because of "rape culture" (which I loathe as a term, not because there isn't something that can reasonably be labeled that, but because it's misued all the damned time. It ranks right up there with "political correctness".) There are few people left who deny the Holocaust, which is the closest analogy I can think of to "rape culture proponents."
Mostly, though, I think it's because lots of people know folks who have been raped, while few people know, or are, Holocaust victims. It's something that happened 60+ years ago and exists as a historical statistic these days. Nobody can relate to it. So while Holocaust jokes are necessarily worse than rape jokes, there are very few people around to really take offense at Holocaust jokes in the way that people can take offense at rape jokes.
So yeah, I'd rather be raped than Holocaust'd. I can't imagine a reasonable person who would choose otherwise. But rape jokes are still going to piss off more people.
That said, I have no problem with entertainers using rape as a source of humor in the way PA has, on occasion. And I think a proper response from Gabe would've been along the lines of "I understand that you are offended, and I assure you that we think rape is a terrible thing and blah blah blah. But we are not going to change our comedic style. If this is a deal breaker for you, we understand, and we will miss your patronage."
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
That said, I have no problem with entertainers using rape as a source of humor in the way PA has, on occasion. And I think a proper response from Gabe would've been along the lines of "I understand that you are offended, and I assure you that we think rape is a terrible thing and blah blah blah. But we are not going to change our comedic style. If this is a deal breaker for you, we understand, and we will miss your patronage."
I haven't read the whole thread but I'm responding anyway, which makes me a terrible person.
IMO the shirt is in poor taste, since it deliberateately targets the feelings of people who are probably mostly reasonable and well-intentioned, and those people should be engaged with rather than targeted with satire.
The dickwolves joke itself however I have no problems with whatsoever. Part of comedy's job is to make light of terrible things.
(I kind of wish the whole controversy would just disappear, since apparently many of the people who were offended have been very earnest and honest and polite in their complaints. But I can't start from their earnestness, honesty and good manners and end at a reasonable critique of the strip. So I'd rather just ignore it.)
Oh, yeah, also: I think the curtain of silence around this whole thing is shite. It does no one any good: on the critics' side, it means people just blame vocal commentators like kirbybits; on PA's side, it makes them look like they caved to a vocal minority instead of prominent people with considered opinions, despite what they say. I really wish we'd get the full story on all this already.
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Except the reaction was not claiming that they were pro-rape. I am sitting here, READING blogs on the day the comic went up.
It has precious little to do with advocating rape, and that's why the second comic pissed people off so much: it waves that strawman high and proud, which gets everyone else to beat on it and call the bloggers silly.
That said, I have no problem with entertainers using rape as a source of humor in the way PA has, on occasion. And I think a proper response from Gabe would've been along the lines of "I understand that you are offended, and I assure you that we think rape is a terrible thing and blah blah blah. But we are not going to change our comedic style. If this is a deal breaker for you, we understand, and we will miss your patronage."
Could not have put it more perfectly.
Exactly the right reaction. Would have been a much better move. If apologizing would compromise your artistic integrity, then don't. No need to fan the flames. Just tell people to move on. Don't like our website, move on to the next.
I find the apology comic offensive on a wholly artistic level, too.
I mean, yes, it was dripping with condescension, which I found distasteful, but it was basically a fourth-wall break just so they could call people stupid. Right or wrong, that was inappropriate, and I'm sure they could have found a better use for their time that day. Make up another pun about anemones or some shit - ANYTHING but that travesty.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
Salvation122 on
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ProprietyPAX Pokemon League Leader!Registered Userregular
Well, I guess I might as well sum up what I said before. I don't think I really expressed my full view in the other thread anyway...
I was going to repost the post I made in the other thread, but you have basically said everything I did/was going to say again, more eloquently.
Some people have said they are upset by the shirts. Mike and Jerry have always said that PAX is like a giant party for all their friends and they're the hosts. Would a host purposefully try to make a guest feel uncomfortable, depressed, or traumatized? Mike and Jerry have every right to do so, but in doing so, they are being dicks.
It kind of hurts when people who you like, people you look up to, say you're foolish for feeling a certain way, or for having PTSD or anxiety or depression triggered by certain topics, and that you should just sit out, not participate, in a really wonderful, great experience (PAX, I mean) just because you have anxiety, or PTSD. It hurts when a creator of something you love basically says they're going to go out of their way to wear a shirt that you've said makes you feel bad, that you're going to do it just to spite them, or to rub it in their face.
Everyone else seems to be making the point that "well, there's LOTS of things out there in the world that are uncomfortable and offensive, you should just suck it up." Why wouldn't you just go out of their way to make PAX a great experience for everyone? A large number of people have come forward and complained about this very thing. Clearly, there is something in particular that is bad about it for a lot of people. Why can't we just come together as a community, say, "yes, we care about making you feel welcome and safe," and drop the shirt?
Mostly, though, I think it's because lots of people know folks who have been raped, while few people know, or are, Holocaust victims. It's something that happened 60+ years ago and exists as a historical statistic these days. Nobody can relate to it. So while Holocaust jokes are necessarily worse than rape jokes, there are very few people around to really take offense at Holocaust jokes in the way that people can take offense at rape jokes.
It's also because, as we are beginning to touch upon in this thread, virtually every person recognizes the Holocaust as a horrible thing, as contemptible. Everyone agrees on what the Holocaust was, and everyone would probably agree that it must be prevented from ever happening again.
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
Propriety on
That guy with the ridiculously long scarf at PAX. Say Hi!
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I find the apology comic offensive on a wholly artistic level, too.
I mean, yes, it was dripping with condescension, which I found distasteful, but it was basically a fourth-wall break just so they could call people stupid. Right or wrong, that was inappropriate, and I'm sure they could have found a better use for their time that day. Make up another pun about anemones or some shit - ANYTHING but that travesty.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
The pedophile one is a bit different, as they are almost universally loathed to such a degree that it's hard to defend their rights without be labeled negatively.
The other comic is eight years old. Penny Arcade's fanbase is vastly different now, and that's a good thing. You just have to be aware of that.
Except the reaction was not claiming that they were pro-rape. I am sitting here, READING blogs on the day the comic went up.
It has precious little to do with advocating rape, and that's why the second comic pissed people off so much: it waves that strawman high and proud, which gets everyone else to beat on it and call the bloggers silly.
That is NOT what is going on here.
Exactly. Its a very good point. And a better way to do it would be El Jeffe's post. Instead of Strawmanning the bloggers simply to say "We understand your concerns. However this is our style of writing and storytelling. We will NOT be changing. You may feel free to read some other webcomic."
When someone says "Hey, this symbol/image of yours is really making me uncomfortable and is serving as a bit of a trigger for my PTSD," you have a few responses.
"Ok, I'll put it on a shirt, and a flag, and I'll sell both at my huge convention, so that this symbol is worn and flown high and proud" is not the right response.
When told that the whole "Dickwolves" thing made rape survivors uncomfortable and serve as a trigger, Mike's response was to wear it on his T-shirt. That, as far as I'm concerned, is that.
Where do you draw that line though? Should we remove guns out of mainstream entertainment because of people with shooting related PTSD? What about war films that distress combat vets? Terrorisim themed shows because of 9/11 survivors? Where does it end? What gives something the criteria of being "too offensive"?
It doesn't matter what you make someone, somewhere is going to be offended/affected by it.
I would draw the line at making shirts that said TALIBAN on them, but it depends. You're going to make something that offends everyone, sure, but at least be compassionate about it, no matter how one decides to deal with a situation like this. That is, don't paint people who are offended by rape jokes as those people who are trying to ruin all our fun! (Which I think the community is doing moreso than Gabe and Co.)
I don't know if you include me in that statement but nothing is further from the truth. I've stated before that I believe in their right to complain. I'm also a firm believer in allowing comedy/parody/art or whatever to push boundries and if need be push peoples buttons. So as far as compassion goes I'm not without sympathy. Rape is a horrible thing to go through for anyone and it's going to shape the way you react to things.
But those of us without that experience don't want our tastes dictated by people who do. Who gets to draw the line? What makes them qualified to judge what other people find funny/offensive?
I just feel that theres is no way to sugar coat entertainment in an offensive free coating without removing it's entertainment value. You shouldn't try, if something offends you that badly choose other means of entertainment.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
What's sort of interesting, though, is that you (or at least I) see very little outcry about jokes pertaining to prison rape. And I would argue that every complaint about "rape culture" involving female victims applies even more so to prison rape. Prison rape is accepted, even condoned and encouraged, in a way that conventional rape typically isn't. It's joked about constantly in popular media. And this seems to get a pass.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I find the apology comic offensive on a wholly artistic level, too.
I mean, yes, it was dripping with condescension, which I found distasteful, but it was basically a fourth-wall break just so they could call people stupid. Right or wrong, that was inappropriate, and I'm sure they could have found a better use for their time that day. Make up another pun about anemones or some shit - ANYTHING but that travesty.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
The pedophile one is a bit different, as they are almost universally loathed to such a degree that it's hard to defend their rights without be labeled negatively.
The other comic is eight years old. Penny Arcade's fanbase is vastly different now, and that's a good thing. You just have to be aware of that.
Actually, I still find the AT&T robot funnier then hell. And I imagine that a great deal of the fanbase does as well. You don't stick with Penny-Arcade without knowing what you are going to get.
Which is why I like ElJeffe's line. "We will miss your patronage."
Rchanen on
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Except the reaction was not claiming that they were pro-rape. I am sitting here, READING blogs on the day the comic went up.
It has precious little to do with advocating rape, and that's why the second comic pissed people off so much: it waves that strawman high and proud, which gets everyone else to beat on it and call the bloggers silly.
That is NOT what is going on here.
I'll have to go back and re-read some of the original posts. I read them once upon a time, and I recall thinking they were grossly unfair, but perhaps the unfairness has grown in my mind after months of stewing.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
What's sort of interesting, though, is that you (or at least I) see very little outcry about jokes pertaining to prison rape. And I would argue that every complaint about "rape culture" involving female victims applies even more so to prison rape. Prison rape is accepted, even condoned and encouraged, in a way that conventional rape typically isn't. It's joked about constantly in popular media. And this seems to get a pass.
Nope.
Even that crazy Shakespeare's blog points out how, in the comic, the slave is a man and thus the rape appears more acceptable as humor. There's a HUGE write-up on rape culture that touches on prison rape and male victims. They're not giving anything a pass here.
many folks might wear a shirt with a picture of a murderer on it, or a quote like "Don't mess with me or I'll kill you," or similar silliness. I probably wouldn't bat an eye, and neither would you. Would someone wear a shirt that says "Don't mess with me or I will rape you"? Or "Stay in the kitchen or I'll rape you"? I would say no.
People condoning or normalizing or tacitly/explicitly encouraging murder is not a systemic problem. These things are a systemic problem with rape.
Aren't these contradictory statements?
People who have assaulted or murdered others and gotten away with it presumably don't walk around telling everyone how great a time it was, either.
they're not contradictory statements because the attitude surrounding murder and assault is not contradictory or confused.
let me make it clear: i am not saying that wearing a dickwolf shirt is promoting or endorsing rape. that's a couple pretty long jumps, in my mind.
what i am suggesting is that when one's culture is largely unanimous on what constitutes a heinous violent offense, and it is not condoned or excused on a regular basis, it is more acceptable to make light of it or treat it with irony and so on, in many informal contexts.
it seems unlikely that a joke about murdering your buddy could in any way contribute or be indicative of a permissive attitude towards murder, or a lack of concern regarding murder.
the difference is that rape is a problem because of permissive or indifferent attitudes. it is a serious problem not taken seriously enough. this is how rape is perpetuated. murder and violence are perpetuated largely by different means.
on another note, there is a kind of dissonance between the two. telling your buddy that you will kill his family, as a joke, after he insults you or something, is ridiculous - it is dark humour, but it is absurd, and treated as such. if someone said he would rape your mother as a joke, in the same situation, you'd probably find it a bit out of place or more fucked up.
I think we are all, to some extent, aware that sexual assault is a problem on a different level than other forms of violence - the way it is perpetuated and excused and ignored means that we have to be more careful about how we treat it, i think.
Except the reaction was not claiming that they were pro-rape. I am sitting here, READING blogs on the day the comic went up.
It has precious little to do with advocating rape, and that's why the second comic pissed people off so much: it waves that strawman high and proud, which gets everyone else to beat on it and call the bloggers silly.
That is NOT what is going on here.
I'll have to go back and re-read some of the original posts. I read them once upon a time, and I recall thinking they were grossly unfair, but perhaps the unfairness has grown in my mind after months of stewing.
I'm sure there's plenty of people that lashed out, which may be trolling or just anger at having been triggered by a webcomic. But that's on both sides, and that could be what ticked off G&T. But the main players here specifically point out the response comic as the real pisser precisely because it misses the point.
I find the apology comic offensive on a wholly artistic level, too.
I mean, yes, it was dripping with condescension, which I found distasteful, but it was basically a fourth-wall break just so they could call people stupid. Right or wrong, that was inappropriate, and I'm sure they could have found a better use for their time that day. Make up another pun about anemones or some shit - ANYTHING but that travesty.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
The pedophile one is a bit different, as they are almost universally loathed to such a degree that it's hard to defend their rights without be labeled negatively.
The other comic is eight years old. Penny Arcade's fanbase is vastly different now, and that's a good thing. You just have to be aware of that.
I really don't buy that there wasn't an outlet for reactionary feminists on the web eight years ago, or that the demographic composition of the readership of PA has significantly changed (age aside.)
Except the reaction was not claiming that they were pro-rape. I am sitting here, READING blogs on the day the comic went up.
It has precious little to do with advocating rape, and that's why the second comic pissed people off so much: it waves that strawman high and proud, which gets everyone else to beat on it and call the bloggers silly.
That is NOT what is going on here.
I'll have to go back and re-read some of the original posts. I read them once upon a time, and I recall thinking they were grossly unfair, but perhaps the unfairness has grown in my mind after months of stewing.
I'm sure there's plenty of people that lashed out, which may be trolling or just anger at having been triggered by a webcomic. But that's on both sides, and that could be what ticked off G&T. But the main players here specifically point out the response comic as the real pisser precisely because it misses the point.
Exactly.
Man, the original comic is funny.
The t-shirt is a little tactless, but a stretch.
The response comic was just a bad, bad move, and that's what's offensive.
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
What's sort of interesting, though, is that you (or at least I) see very little outcry about jokes pertaining to prison rape. And I would argue that every complaint about "rape culture" involving female victims applies even more so to prison rape. Prison rape is accepted, even condoned and encouraged, in a way that conventional rape typically isn't. It's joked about constantly in popular media. And this seems to get a pass.
it shouldn't get a pass.
prison rape is a horrifying problem - one that is potentially exaggerated in terms of frequency, but still occurs with a frequency that should make us question the very foundations of a legal system which permits it.
males raping females and males raping children are the most commonly discussed problems. this does not mean that males raping males, females raping females, females raping males, or whatever other gender combinations you can imagine, are not horrific. they are all severe problems and they spring, i think, from similar problems (if not the very same problems).
i think the reason you see the first two discussed is 1) they are more commonly known, and possibly more frequent, and 2) there are many more venues, communities and means for victims or activists to speak out about these particular forms of rape. such people usually speak from their particular experiences.
to be less charitable, when faced with the true scope of the problem of sexual violence, the mind recoils. it confounds one's intellect and ethical senses. it is understandable that people narrow their focus, either out of practicality or familiarity, even if it isn't necessarily laudable.
I find the apology comic offensive on a wholly artistic level, too.
I mean, yes, it was dripping with condescension, which I found distasteful, but it was basically a fourth-wall break just so they could call people stupid. Right or wrong, that was inappropriate, and I'm sure they could have found a better use for their time that day. Make up another pun about anemones or some shit - ANYTHING but that travesty.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
The pedophile one is a bit different, as they are almost universally loathed to such a degree that it's hard to defend their rights without be labeled negatively.
The other comic is eight years old. Penny Arcade's fanbase is vastly different now, and that's a good thing. You just have to be aware of that.
I really don't buy that there wasn't an outlet for reactionary feminists on the web eight years ago, or that the demographic composition of the readership of PA has significantly changed (age aside.)
The internet has changed though. Eight years ago, there was no Twitter or Tumblr - you'd be hard pressed to propogate information as fast as you can do now. Calling people to arms against a cause is a hell of a lot easier now than it was then.
Social engagement is a recent phenomenon, I think.
I don't know if you include me in that statement but nothing is further from the truth. I've stated before that I believe in their right to complain. I'm also a firm believer in allowing comedy/parody/art or whatever to push boundries and if need be push peoples buttons. So as far as compassion goes I'm not without sympathy. Rape is a horrible thing to go through for anyone and it's going to shape the way you react to things.
But those of us without that experience don't want our tastes dictated by people who do. Who gets to draw the line? What makes them qualified to judge what other people find funny/offensive?
I just feel that theres is no way to sugar coat entertainment in an offensive free coating without removing it's entertainment value. You shouldn't try, if something offends you that badly choose other means of entertainment.
I think you're talking about the comic strip itself here. I don't think there was anything wrong with it. People can get offended and complain, which is fine, but I think the T-Shirt and the follow-up comic were somewhat out of line. That's what I'm saying.
EDIT:
reactionary feminists
I have never seen the word "reactionary" used like this before.
I find the apology comic offensive on a wholly artistic level, too.
I mean, yes, it was dripping with condescension, which I found distasteful, but it was basically a fourth-wall break just so they could call people stupid. Right or wrong, that was inappropriate, and I'm sure they could have found a better use for their time that day. Make up another pun about anemones or some shit - ANYTHING but that travesty.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
The pedophile one is a bit different, as they are almost universally loathed to such a degree that it's hard to defend their rights without be labeled negatively.
The other comic is eight years old. Penny Arcade's fanbase is vastly different now, and that's a good thing. You just have to be aware of that.
I really don't buy that there wasn't an outlet for reactionary feminists on the web eight years ago, or that the demographic composition of the readership of PA has significantly changed (age aside.)
The internet has changed though. Eight years ago, there was no Twitter or Tumblr - you'd be hard pressed to propogate information as fast as you can do now. Calling people to arms against a cause is a hell of a lot easier now than it was then.
Social engagement is a recent phenomenon, I think.
I'd argue that RSS feeds and blogs more or less filled the same niche, although they had lower participation simply because it was a giant pain in the ass to post from your phone.
I don't know if you include me in that statement but nothing is further from the truth. I've stated before that I believe in their right to complain. I'm also a firm believer in allowing comedy/parody/art or whatever to push boundries and if need be push peoples buttons. So as far as compassion goes I'm not without sympathy. Rape is a horrible thing to go through for anyone and it's going to shape the way you react to things.
But those of us without that experience don't want our tastes dictated by people who do. Who gets to draw the line? What makes them qualified to judge what other people find funny/offensive?
I just feel that theres is no way to sugar coat entertainment in an offensive free coating without removing it's entertainment value. You shouldn't try, if something offends you that badly choose other means of entertainment.
I think you're talking about the comic strip itself here. I don't think there was anything wrong with it. People can get offended and complain, which is fine, but I think the T-Shirt and the follow-up comic were somewhat out of line. That's what I'm saying.
EDIT:
reactionary feminists
I have never seen the word "reactionary" used like this before.
Perhaps, but arguably neither the shirt or the follow up comic are out of line with PA's style of humour. In that case I'd echo Mikes reasoning, if you don't like the shirt, don't buy it. If you don't like the comic, don't read it. If you feel this will ruin you PAX experience, don't go.
These events haven't changed anything about PA other than some peoples perception of it.
That's a cop-out response, especially since people got PA to change their mind on the shirt. I really don't like the notion of "Hey rape survivors, this website? Yeah, it's not for you." There's nothing wrong with making the place more welcoming to people.
Hi, I just registered to post some things -- a question, and a statement that might get me in shit. Not sure.
Firstly: Can someone explain "rape apologists" to me? I keep seeing people toss that at Mike and Mike's defenders, and it's a little mindboggling. I mean, if you break it down it should mean somebody who is apologizing for rape, but obviously that isn't the case. You'd think somebody apologizing for a rape would be a good thing, assuming they committed it. Even barring that idea, I still don't see Mike apologizing for rapes anywhere -- which means I'm totally missing the actual definition of the term.
Secondly: In regards to the idea that the comic/response comic/ t-shirt promoted/ promotes "rape culture", and specifically towards the blogs, writers, and 'safe places' taking aim and firing at it: If these PA related things are at the top of your list for shit-to-get-mad-about-that-promotes-rape-culture, you need to take a good, long look at yourselves.
What I mean is this: As far as I am concerned one of the worst offenders for the promotion of "rape culture" is the staggering numbers of victims, both male and female, who refuse to report the attack after the fact. I have had two friends in this situation, one a victim, one an attempted-victim who both had to be badgered into reporting it.
"The cops won't do anything," was the argument. No, not reporting it means the cops won't do anything. Reporting it at least offers the chance that they will. The idea that all of the stuff swirling around in this controversy is even as infinitesimally important as getting the absolute necessity of reporting a rape or attempted rape to the authorities into the heads of the victims who refuse to do so is insane. The efforts at work here could, and should, be better spent there.
Whether PA has changed or not isn't the issue. Whether the critique came from people who regularly read PA isn't either. I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh's show, but if I did choose to listen to one episode, my lack of commentary on his previous shows would not invalidate my response to the one show I had in fact watched.
Hi, I just registered to post some things -- a question, and a statement that might get me in shit. Not sure.
Firstly: Can someone explain "rape apologists" to me? I keep seeing people toss that at Mike and Mike's defenders, and it's a little mindboggling. I mean, if you break it down it should mean somebody who is apologizing for rape, but obviously that isn't the case. You'd think somebody apologizing for a rape would be a good thing, assuming they committed it. Even barring that idea, I still don't see Mike apologizing for rapes anywhere -- which means I'm totally missing the actual definition of the term.
It's an alternate meaning of apologist, essentially meaning "defender of"
Firstly: Can someone explain "rape apologists" to me? I keep seeing people toss that at Mike and Mike's defenders, and it's a little mindboggling. I mean, if you break it down it should mean somebody who is apologizing for rape, but obviously that isn't the case. You'd think somebody apologizing for a rape would be a good thing, assuming they committed it. Even barring that idea, I still don't see Mike apologizing for rapes anywhere -- which means I'm totally missing the actual definition of the term.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
In fact, "apologist" means "defender." "A person who defends, in speech or writing, a faith, doctrine, idea, or action."
That's a cop-out response, especially since people got PA to change their mind on the shirt. I really don't like the notion of "Hey rape survivors, this website? Yeah, it's not for you." There's nothing wrong with making the place more welcoming to people.
I don't get that line of reasoning at all. How is it a cop out? The PA message is not "this comic is not for you". The message is "I'm sorry jokes about rape offend you, but we're not going to stop making jokes about rape, so with that in mind unless your opinions about rape jokes change coming here is just going to further offend and/or distress you".
No one is saying anyone isn't welcome, just that the criteria for them to have a flawless time here are never going to be met. They should either accept that and in doing so forfit their right to complain about seeing rape jokes here or decide that is not a comprimise they are willing to make and go elsewhere.
I see no cop out or problem with that line of reasoning. Really I would compare this reaction to someone buying a snoop dogg CD and getting offended he drops the N-bomb. You knew what this place was about before you stepped through the door, PA has never made any secret that it's humour touches on what some people consider sensitive subjects.
I don't know if you include me in that statement but nothing is further from the truth. I've stated before that I believe in their right to complain. I'm also a firm believer in allowing comedy/parody/art or whatever to push boundries and if need be push peoples buttons. So as far as compassion goes I'm not without sympathy. Rape is a horrible thing to go through for anyone and it's going to shape the way you react to things.
But those of us without that experience don't want our tastes dictated by people who do. Who gets to draw the line? What makes them qualified to judge what other people find funny/offensive?
This is what I don't understand; in what way did any of these people "dictate your tastes"? They complained about something and either by M&J decree or by some arcane democratic process, Penny Arcade decided to stop selling the shirts. They did not take either of the comics down. I don't think they should feel obligated to do so either.
You believe in these people's right to voice complaint, so long as it doesn't actually convince anyone of anything you don't agree with, is the impression I'm left with.
What I mean is this: As far as I am concerned one of the worst offenders for the promotion of "rape culture" is the staggering numbers of victims, both male and female, who refuse to report the attack after the fact. I have had two friends in this situation, one a victim, one an attempted-victim who both had to be badgered into reporting it.
"The cops won't do anything," was the argument. No, not reporting it means the cops won't do anything. Reporting it at least offers the chance that they will. The idea that all of the stuff swirling around in this controversy is even as infinitesimally important as getting the absolute necessity of reporting a rape or attempted rape to the authorities into the heads of the victims who refuse to do so is insane. The efforts at work here could, and should, be better spent there.
People being raped and then not reporting it could be a result of rape culture, though. People might not report it for a lot of reasons. They might feel ashamed, even they they were attacked. They might be afraid no one will believe them. They might be afraid no one will take it seriously. They might even want to deny that it was rape, either to keep the ugly thought away, or because they believe on some level that people who are raped deserve it it some way, as in "oh, she was dressed a certain what. What did she expect?"
I guess you could make the argument though that by not reporting it, they are letting a rapist go free, letting him think he can rape without consequence, which I suppose would contribute. Still, I think this is blaming the victim, for the most part.
That's a cop-out response, especially since people got PA to change their mind on the shirt. I really don't like the notion of "Hey rape survivors, this website? Yeah, it's not for you." There's nothing wrong with making the place more welcoming to people.
I don't get that line of reasoning at all. How is it a cop out? The PA message is not "this comic is not for you". The message is "I'm sorry jokes about rape offend you, but we're not going to stop making jokes about rape, so with that in mind unless your opinions about rape jokes change coming here is just going to further offend and/or distress you".
No one is saying anyone isn't welcome, just that the criteria for them to have a flawless time here are never going to be met. They should either accept that and in doing so forfit their right to complain about seeing rape jokes here or decide that is not a comprimise they are willing to make and go elsewhere.
I see no cop out or problem with that line of reasoning. Really I would compare this reaction to someone buying a snoop dogg CD and getting offended he drops the N-bomb. You knew what this place was about before you stepped through the door, PA has never made any secret that it's humour touches on what some people consider sensitive subjects.
The comic itself is not what (most of us) are taking issue with. It is how the situation was handled after the comic, with the follow-up comic and the shirt.
I don't get that line of reasoning at all. How is it a cop out? The PA message is not "this comic is not for you". The message is "I'm sorry jokes about rape offend you, but we're not going to stop making jokes about rape, so with that in mind unless your opinions about rape jokes change coming here is just going to further offend and/or distress you".
No one is saying anyone isn't welcome, just that the criteria for them to have a flawless time here are never going to be met. They should either accept that and in doing so forfit their right to complain about seeing rape jokes here or decide that is not a comprimise they are willing to make and go elsewhere.
Why should they have to "foreit their right to complain about rape jokes" if rape jokes offend them and particularly if they feel rape jokes encourage the normalization of rape? You can agree or disagree that rape jokes do that, but to say "Oh well, just pretend like the rape jokes don't exist" . . . What?
If someone prints comics that where the punchline is "olol all Muslim ragheads are terrorists" or "gays are all pedophiles, ha ha pervy gays", you may not be able to make any headway in the audience that finds that amusing. But you can sure as hell comment on it, analyze why / how those types of jokes became acceptable to that crowd, and the real life implications of those jokes.
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
What's sort of interesting, though, is that you (or at least I) see very little outcry about jokes pertaining to prison rape. And I would argue that every complaint about "rape culture" involving female victims applies even more so to prison rape. Prison rape is accepted, even condoned and encouraged, in a way that conventional rape typically isn't. It's joked about constantly in popular media. And this seems to get a pass.
The New York Review of Books did a great long article or two about how rison rape is horrifyingly unreported and widespread without any real attempt to curb it. aaannnd here it is!
What I mean is this: As far as I am concerned one of the worst offenders for the promotion of "rape culture" is the staggering numbers of victims, both male and female, who refuse to report the attack after the fact. I have had two friends in this situation, one a victim, one an attempted-victim who both had to be badgered into reporting it.
"The cops won't do anything," was the argument. No, not reporting it means the cops won't do anything. Reporting it at least offers the chance that they will. The idea that all of the stuff swirling around in this controversy is even as infinitesimally important as getting the absolute necessity of reporting a rape or attempted rape to the authorities into the heads of the victims who refuse to do so is insane. The efforts at work here could, and should, be better spent there.
This is a legitimate concern, and I understand why you bring it up.
* I would be too embarrassed / ashamed of what had happened (55%)
* I would just want to forget it ever happened (41%)
* I wouldn’t want to go to court (38%)
* I would be afraid of repercussions from the assailant (31%)
* I would be afraid that my family would find out (25%)
There are many situations in which some people feel that a person should take responsibility for being raped. Over half (56%) of those surveyed think that there are some circumstances where a person should accept responsibility. Women and young people are more likely to consider victims more responsible. Of those people the circumstances are:
* Performing another sexual act on them (73%)
* Getting into bed with a person (66%)
* Drinking to excess / blackout (64%)
* Going back to theirs for a drink (29%)
* Dressing provocatively (28%)
* Dancing in a sexy way with a man at a night club or bar (22%)
* Acting flirtatiously (21%)
* Kissing them (14%)
* Accepting a drink and engaging in a conversation at a bar (13%)
Posts
Did I bring up rights at all? I was asking in the context of what the person I quoted said, nothing more.
You're switching tangents here. I'm not defending any of their actions and if I were Mike, I would be annoyed too. Frankly, I didn't know about half that stuff, and that blows.
But you were talking about censorship. Suggesting that we should cease production of Joker t-shirts because he's a character that stands for murder, mayhem and anarchy.
I'm simply saying that I would like to think there are many, many people that were not offended by the shirt itself, but disappointed by Mike's reaction. In attempting to respond to the vocal minority, he in fact responded to a much greater audience, and it was dismissive, arrogant, and brash.
Just as Penny Arcade is not responsible for the few trolls that are bombarding Bits blog and those of other rape victims with violent messages, the juvenile people that declared war on Penny Arcade are not representative of the majority of rape victims who might have been offended by the comic, the shirt, both, or neither.
I feel that way. And I would bet you that my girlfriend does too.
Do you understand what I mean?
Aren't these contradictory statements?
People who have assaulted or murdered others and gotten away with it presumably don't walk around telling everyone how great a time it was, either.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
This is more or less my stance. I had no problem with the comic and thought it was hilarious. The second comic was kind of in poor taste, but I can empathize a bit, because the original outcry to the first comic was generally unfair and reactionary. The response boiled down to "fuck you, you insensitive pro-rape shitwads," and would probably have been better realized as "while you probably meant no harm, this comic is offensive because of X, Y and Z." When someone overreacts to something you've done in which you meant no harm, it's natural to get defensive. It doesn't make it okay, but it's natural.
The biggest thing that got me over the controversy was the singling out of rape as, effectively, the worst thing that someone can possibly joke about. It really isn't. Objectively speaking, the Holocaust was a fuckton worse than any number of rapes. I don't think it's possible to deny this and claim to be a rational person. But Holocaust jokes draw virtually no ire. Part of this is because of "rape culture" (which I loathe as a term, not because there isn't something that can reasonably be labeled that, but because it's misued all the damned time. It ranks right up there with "political correctness".) There are few people left who deny the Holocaust, which is the closest analogy I can think of to "rape culture proponents."
Mostly, though, I think it's because lots of people know folks who have been raped, while few people know, or are, Holocaust victims. It's something that happened 60+ years ago and exists as a historical statistic these days. Nobody can relate to it. So while Holocaust jokes are necessarily worse than rape jokes, there are very few people around to really take offense at Holocaust jokes in the way that people can take offense at rape jokes.
So yeah, I'd rather be raped than Holocaust'd. I can't imagine a reasonable person who would choose otherwise. But rape jokes are still going to piss off more people.
That said, I have no problem with entertainers using rape as a source of humor in the way PA has, on occasion. And I think a proper response from Gabe would've been along the lines of "I understand that you are offended, and I assure you that we think rape is a terrible thing and blah blah blah. But we are not going to change our comedic style. If this is a deal breaker for you, we understand, and we will miss your patronage."
Could not have put it more perfectly.
IMO the shirt is in poor taste, since it deliberateately targets the feelings of people who are probably mostly reasonable and well-intentioned, and those people should be engaged with rather than targeted with satire.
The dickwolves joke itself however I have no problems with whatsoever. Part of comedy's job is to make light of terrible things.
(I kind of wish the whole controversy would just disappear, since apparently many of the people who were offended have been very earnest and honest and polite in their complaints. But I can't start from their earnestness, honesty and good manners and end at a reasonable critique of the strip. So I'd rather just ignore it.)
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
It has precious little to do with advocating rape, and that's why the second comic pissed people off so much: it waves that strawman high and proud, which gets everyone else to beat on it and call the bloggers silly.
That is NOT what is going on here.
Exactly the right reaction. Would have been a much better move. If apologizing would compromise your artistic integrity, then don't. No need to fan the flames. Just tell people to move on. Don't like our website, move on to the next.
I think a big part of their condescension of people that were offended is that they have literally been making jokes along this line for a decade and then people get all up in arms. It's kind of ridiculous that this strip metastasized, for example, while this one caused no comment, or this one.
I was going to repost the post I made in the other thread, but you have basically said everything I did/was going to say again, more eloquently.
Some people have said they are upset by the shirts. Mike and Jerry have always said that PAX is like a giant party for all their friends and they're the hosts. Would a host purposefully try to make a guest feel uncomfortable, depressed, or traumatized? Mike and Jerry have every right to do so, but in doing so, they are being dicks.
It kind of hurts when people who you like, people you look up to, say you're foolish for feeling a certain way, or for having PTSD or anxiety or depression triggered by certain topics, and that you should just sit out, not participate, in a really wonderful, great experience (PAX, I mean) just because you have anxiety, or PTSD. It hurts when a creator of something you love basically says they're going to go out of their way to wear a shirt that you've said makes you feel bad, that you're going to do it just to spite them, or to rub it in their face.
Everyone else seems to be making the point that "well, there's LOTS of things out there in the world that are uncomfortable and offensive, you should just suck it up." Why wouldn't you just go out of their way to make PAX a great experience for everyone? A large number of people have come forward and complained about this very thing. Clearly, there is something in particular that is bad about it for a lot of people. Why can't we just come together as a community, say, "yes, we care about making you feel welcome and safe," and drop the shirt?
---
It's also because, as we are beginning to touch upon in this thread, virtually every person recognizes the Holocaust as a horrible thing, as contemptible. Everyone agrees on what the Holocaust was, and everyone would probably agree that it must be prevented from ever happening again.
The same is not true, unfortunately, of rape. There are many, many people who, as Evil Multifarious put it, "deny that they have perpetrated it, or [deny] that it remains a serious problem, or that it is widespread. people who have sexually assaulted women (or men, or children) will condemn rape as an evil act." It goes unreported, or if reported, uninvestigated, or if investigated, unpunished. This is well documented, it's a huge problem, and it's why rape is different from most other problems society suffers from.
Love Pokemon? Going to PAX Prime/East/Aus/South? Challenge the PAX Pokemon League!!!
The other comic is eight years old. Penny Arcade's fanbase is vastly different now, and that's a good thing. You just have to be aware of that.
Exactly. Its a very good point. And a better way to do it would be El Jeffe's post. Instead of Strawmanning the bloggers simply to say "We understand your concerns. However this is our style of writing and storytelling. We will NOT be changing. You may feel free to read some other webcomic."
"Ok, I'll put it on a shirt, and a flag, and I'll sell both at my huge convention, so that this symbol is worn and flown high and proud" is not the right response.
When told that the whole "Dickwolves" thing made rape survivors uncomfortable and serve as a trigger, Mike's response was to wear it on his T-shirt. That, as far as I'm concerned, is that.
I don't know if you include me in that statement but nothing is further from the truth. I've stated before that I believe in their right to complain. I'm also a firm believer in allowing comedy/parody/art or whatever to push boundries and if need be push peoples buttons. So as far as compassion goes I'm not without sympathy. Rape is a horrible thing to go through for anyone and it's going to shape the way you react to things.
But those of us without that experience don't want our tastes dictated by people who do. Who gets to draw the line? What makes them qualified to judge what other people find funny/offensive?
I just feel that theres is no way to sugar coat entertainment in an offensive free coating without removing it's entertainment value. You shouldn't try, if something offends you that badly choose other means of entertainment.
What's sort of interesting, though, is that you (or at least I) see very little outcry about jokes pertaining to prison rape. And I would argue that every complaint about "rape culture" involving female victims applies even more so to prison rape. Prison rape is accepted, even condoned and encouraged, in a way that conventional rape typically isn't. It's joked about constantly in popular media. And this seems to get a pass.
Actually, I still find the AT&T robot funnier then hell. And I imagine that a great deal of the fanbase does as well. You don't stick with Penny-Arcade without knowing what you are going to get.
Which is why I like ElJeffe's line. "We will miss your patronage."
I'll have to go back and re-read some of the original posts. I read them once upon a time, and I recall thinking they were grossly unfair, but perhaps the unfairness has grown in my mind after months of stewing.
Even that crazy Shakespeare's blog points out how, in the comic, the slave is a man and thus the rape appears more acceptable as humor. There's a HUGE write-up on rape culture that touches on prison rape and male victims. They're not giving anything a pass here.
they're not contradictory statements because the attitude surrounding murder and assault is not contradictory or confused.
let me make it clear: i am not saying that wearing a dickwolf shirt is promoting or endorsing rape. that's a couple pretty long jumps, in my mind.
what i am suggesting is that when one's culture is largely unanimous on what constitutes a heinous violent offense, and it is not condoned or excused on a regular basis, it is more acceptable to make light of it or treat it with irony and so on, in many informal contexts.
it seems unlikely that a joke about murdering your buddy could in any way contribute or be indicative of a permissive attitude towards murder, or a lack of concern regarding murder.
the difference is that rape is a problem because of permissive or indifferent attitudes. it is a serious problem not taken seriously enough. this is how rape is perpetuated. murder and violence are perpetuated largely by different means.
on another note, there is a kind of dissonance between the two. telling your buddy that you will kill his family, as a joke, after he insults you or something, is ridiculous - it is dark humour, but it is absurd, and treated as such. if someone said he would rape your mother as a joke, in the same situation, you'd probably find it a bit out of place or more fucked up.
I think we are all, to some extent, aware that sexual assault is a problem on a different level than other forms of violence - the way it is perpetuated and excused and ignored means that we have to be more careful about how we treat it, i think.
I really don't buy that there wasn't an outlet for reactionary feminists on the web eight years ago, or that the demographic composition of the readership of PA has significantly changed (age aside.)
Exactly.
Man, the original comic is funny.
The t-shirt is a little tactless, but a stretch.
The response comic was just a bad, bad move, and that's what's offensive.
it shouldn't get a pass.
prison rape is a horrifying problem - one that is potentially exaggerated in terms of frequency, but still occurs with a frequency that should make us question the very foundations of a legal system which permits it.
males raping females and males raping children are the most commonly discussed problems. this does not mean that males raping males, females raping females, females raping males, or whatever other gender combinations you can imagine, are not horrific. they are all severe problems and they spring, i think, from similar problems (if not the very same problems).
i think the reason you see the first two discussed is 1) they are more commonly known, and possibly more frequent, and 2) there are many more venues, communities and means for victims or activists to speak out about these particular forms of rape. such people usually speak from their particular experiences.
to be less charitable, when faced with the true scope of the problem of sexual violence, the mind recoils. it confounds one's intellect and ethical senses. it is understandable that people narrow their focus, either out of practicality or familiarity, even if it isn't necessarily laudable.
The internet has changed though. Eight years ago, there was no Twitter or Tumblr - you'd be hard pressed to propogate information as fast as you can do now. Calling people to arms against a cause is a hell of a lot easier now than it was then.
Social engagement is a recent phenomenon, I think.
I think you're talking about the comic strip itself here. I don't think there was anything wrong with it. People can get offended and complain, which is fine, but I think the T-Shirt and the follow-up comic were somewhat out of line. That's what I'm saying.
EDIT:
I have never seen the word "reactionary" used like this before.
I'd argue that RSS feeds and blogs more or less filled the same niche, although they had lower participation simply because it was a giant pain in the ass to post from your phone.
Perhaps, but arguably neither the shirt or the follow up comic are out of line with PA's style of humour. In that case I'd echo Mikes reasoning, if you don't like the shirt, don't buy it. If you don't like the comic, don't read it. If you feel this will ruin you PAX experience, don't go.
These events haven't changed anything about PA other than some peoples perception of it.
Firstly: Can someone explain "rape apologists" to me? I keep seeing people toss that at Mike and Mike's defenders, and it's a little mindboggling. I mean, if you break it down it should mean somebody who is apologizing for rape, but obviously that isn't the case. You'd think somebody apologizing for a rape would be a good thing, assuming they committed it. Even barring that idea, I still don't see Mike apologizing for rapes anywhere -- which means I'm totally missing the actual definition of the term.
Secondly: In regards to the idea that the comic/response comic/ t-shirt promoted/ promotes "rape culture", and specifically towards the blogs, writers, and 'safe places' taking aim and firing at it: If these PA related things are at the top of your list for shit-to-get-mad-about-that-promotes-rape-culture, you need to take a good, long look at yourselves.
What I mean is this: As far as I am concerned one of the worst offenders for the promotion of "rape culture" is the staggering numbers of victims, both male and female, who refuse to report the attack after the fact. I have had two friends in this situation, one a victim, one an attempted-victim who both had to be badgered into reporting it.
"The cops won't do anything," was the argument. No, not reporting it means the cops won't do anything. Reporting it at least offers the chance that they will. The idea that all of the stuff swirling around in this controversy is even as infinitesimally important as getting the absolute necessity of reporting a rape or attempted rape to the authorities into the heads of the victims who refuse to do so is insane. The efforts at work here could, and should, be better spent there.
Whether PA has changed or not isn't the issue. Whether the critique came from people who regularly read PA isn't either. I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh's show, but if I did choose to listen to one episode, my lack of commentary on his previous shows would not invalidate my response to the one show I had in fact watched.
It's an alternate meaning of apologist, essentially meaning "defender of"
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
I don't get that line of reasoning at all. How is it a cop out? The PA message is not "this comic is not for you". The message is "I'm sorry jokes about rape offend you, but we're not going to stop making jokes about rape, so with that in mind unless your opinions about rape jokes change coming here is just going to further offend and/or distress you".
No one is saying anyone isn't welcome, just that the criteria for them to have a flawless time here are never going to be met. They should either accept that and in doing so forfit their right to complain about seeing rape jokes here or decide that is not a comprimise they are willing to make and go elsewhere.
I see no cop out or problem with that line of reasoning. Really I would compare this reaction to someone buying a snoop dogg CD and getting offended he drops the N-bomb. You knew what this place was about before you stepped through the door, PA has never made any secret that it's humour touches on what some people consider sensitive subjects.
This is what I don't understand; in what way did any of these people "dictate your tastes"? They complained about something and either by M&J decree or by some arcane democratic process, Penny Arcade decided to stop selling the shirts. They did not take either of the comics down. I don't think they should feel obligated to do so either.
You believe in these people's right to voice complaint, so long as it doesn't actually convince anyone of anything you don't agree with, is the impression I'm left with.
People being raped and then not reporting it could be a result of rape culture, though. People might not report it for a lot of reasons. They might feel ashamed, even they they were attacked. They might be afraid no one will believe them. They might be afraid no one will take it seriously. They might even want to deny that it was rape, either to keep the ugly thought away, or because they believe on some level that people who are raped deserve it it some way, as in "oh, she was dressed a certain what. What did she expect?"
I guess you could make the argument though that by not reporting it, they are letting a rapist go free, letting him think he can rape without consequence, which I suppose would contribute. Still, I think this is blaming the victim, for the most part.
The comic itself is not what (most of us) are taking issue with. It is how the situation was handled after the comic, with the follow-up comic and the shirt.
Why should they have to "foreit their right to complain about rape jokes" if rape jokes offend them and particularly if they feel rape jokes encourage the normalization of rape? You can agree or disagree that rape jokes do that, but to say "Oh well, just pretend like the rape jokes don't exist" . . . What?
If someone prints comics that where the punchline is "olol all Muslim ragheads are terrorists" or "gays are all pedophiles, ha ha pervy gays", you may not be able to make any headway in the audience that finds that amusing. But you can sure as hell comment on it, analyze why / how those types of jokes became acceptable to that crowd, and the real life implications of those jokes.
The New York Review of Books did a great long article or two about how rison rape is horrifyingly unreported and widespread without any real attempt to curb it. aaannnd here it is!
This is a legitimate concern, and I understand why you bring it up.
I recommend reading this link: