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I would be completely OK with the rebels simply using France/England/US as air support, while they advance on the ground.
it seems the rebels are okay with that too
they're not too keen on ground forces it seems
I guess it is kind of important that we're the ones helping and they're the ones doing it
Yeah, if the US would just go back to supporting its allies, instead of "Here, let me do that for you"-ing them, our credibility around the world would be much improved.
The problem is that that while the rebels have a shitload of manpower, they're kindof lacking in the tech-department and have no tanks.
But on the other hand, they were able to shoot down an air fighter so who knows.
Apparently they seized some tanks from the recent incursion. How the fuck that happened is a bit of a mystery, though I suppose its possible the crews abandoned them if it became apparent they'd be overrun.
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that some tank crews have defected to the rebel side. Do we know how loyal the army is to Gaddafi these days?
the rebels report that they're seeing gaddafi's army fight itself
I'm not sure this is a fight the US should be involved in, seems like we haven't given enough munitions to both sides yet (since we seem to have this thing where we give fucktons of ordinance to a country then invade it 2 decades later)
Obama has told congress that US fighters will not be involved; Enterprise is still chillin' in the Red Sea.
Nobody actually knows this because this administration sucks at communicating.
We don't even need the Enterprise there really. Back during the Kosovo war B-2s flew bombing runs over Kosovo out of Missouri. The state of Missouri. It was dick waving at its finest. Pimp-handing the world with "we can hit you from anywhere".
Yeah well I'd like to see the logistics chain needed for handling constant CAPs from out of continental US. That's a huge difference.
Lobbing Tomahawks out of the Med though, that's probably right up your alley.
I'm not sure this is a fight the US should be involved in, seems like we haven't given enough munitions to both sides yet (since we seem to have this thing where we give fucktons of ordinance to a country then invade it 2 decades later)
Obama has told congress that US fighters will not be involved; Enterprise is still chillin' in the Red Sea.
Nobody actually knows this because this administration sucks at communicating.
We don't even need the Enterprise there really. Back during the Kosovo war B-2s flew bombing runs over Kosovo out of Missouri. The state of Missouri. It was dick waving at its finest. Pimp-handing the world with "we can hit you from anywhere".
Yeah well I'd like to see the logistics chain needed for handling constant CAPs from out of continental US. That's a huge difference.
Lobbing Tomahawks out of the Med though, that's probably right up your alley.
you know europe is like, right north of there
everything you guys don't have in the middle east or at home you have here
Maybe a better (cheaper, more humane thing to do would be to drop videos of the Best Hits of the US Airforce or something. That way we don't actually have to hurt anyone.
What is Gaddafi's plan here? Kill all the rebels and hope the world goes back to treating him as before? I don't know very much about Libya at all, so apologies if there's an obvious answer that I've missed.
pots+pans on
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
What is Gaddafi's plan here? Kill all the rebels and hope the world goes back to treating him as before? I don't know very much about Libya at all, so apologies if there's an obvious answer that I've missed.
It seems he seeks to maintain his control over Libya, regardless of how many Libyans he has to kill to do so. If that means killing them all, I'm fairly certain he's okay with that.
To borrow from Alan Moore, as long as he gets his way, he won't mind being the richest dictator on the cinder.
What is Gaddafi's plan here? Kill all the rebels and hope the world goes back to treating him as before? I don't know very much about Libya at all, so apologies if there's an obvious answer that I've missed.
Drive out al-qaida, adopt Barack Obama and fuck NATO's shit up, seems to be his plan
if anyone is interested (and you most likely aren't) here's the norwegian prime minister Jens Stoltenberg's speech to the summit in paris
Thank you Mr. President.
First, I would like to commend the decision taken by President Sarkozy to convene this crucially important meeting. We are facing an urgent situation in Libya, and we have no time to loose.
Norway strongly supports the historic resolution adopted by the Security Council two days ago. For the first time, the Security Council invokes the principle of Responsibility to Protect as the primary reason for authorizing the use of force against a Member State.
As a firm believer in this novel principle, and in the importance of an UN-led world order, Norway stands ready to contribute to its full implementation, through political, military and humanitarian means.
With this resolution the international community sends a strong and unmistakable signal to Colonel Gaddafi and his regime.
Colonel Gaddafi must now respect the legitimate demands and democratic aspirations of the Libyan people. Libyan authorities must protect the civilian population from the escalating violence. They must provide full and unhindered access for humanitarian actors.
Gaddafi met peaceful demonstrators with brutality. A leader who wages war against his own people has lost his legitimacy. We therefore call for Colonel Gaddafi?s immediate resignation.
The bold decisions taken by the Arab League and the African Union were essential for developing the broad international support for the historic decision taken by the Security Council.
The Security Council resolution and the strong regional support provide the necessary legality and legitimacy. Still, this is just the first step. Now it is time to act.
We should be under no illusion that solving the crisis in Libya will be either easy or swift. Broad and sustained participation is now essential. It is particularly important that key Arab states and other countries of the region play their full part in all aspects of our common effort.
To prevail, it requires will, perseverance, and sacrifice.
We fully support the UN Secretary General?s Special Envoy in his efforts to find a sustainable and peaceful solution to the crisis.
While force alone will not be enough, there are times where the collective will of the international community must be imposed by military means. As we speak, Norway is therefore preparing relevant Air Force assets for the task, including 6 combat aircraft.
In addition to military contributions, Norway stands ready to help develop a broad and effective response, including economic sanctions, international legal action, and a well coordinated humanitarian assistance.
Norway has contributed close to 10 million US dollars to the emergency relief efforts.
This is a moment of truth. History will judge us by the actions we are taking these very days. I call on you all to play your part in this endeavour
I'm not sure this is a fight the US should be involved in, seems like we haven't given enough munitions to both sides yet (since we seem to have this thing where we give fucktons of ordinance to a country then invade it 2 decades later)
Obama has told congress that US fighters will not be involved; Enterprise is still chillin' in the Red Sea.
Nobody actually knows this because this administration sucks at communicating.
We don't even need the Enterprise there really. Back during the Kosovo war B-2s flew bombing runs over Kosovo out of Missouri. The state of Missouri. It was dick waving at its finest. Pimp-handing the world with "we can hit you from anywhere".
Yeah well I'd like to see the logistics chain needed for handling constant CAPs from out of continental US. That's a huge difference.
Lobbing Tomahawks out of the Med though, that's probably right up your alley.
you know europe is like, right north of there
everything you guys don't have in the middle east or at home you have here
also, the rest of NATO is here
I would be surprised to learn most US government officials are aware Europe exists outside of some vague notion of some kind of commie social enclave where people speak french and hate freedom
I'm not sure this is a fight the US should be involved in, seems like we haven't given enough munitions to both sides yet (since we seem to have this thing where we give fucktons of ordinance to a country then invade it 2 decades later)
Obama has told congress that US fighters will not be involved; Enterprise is still chillin' in the Red Sea.
Nobody actually knows this because this administration sucks at communicating.
We don't even need the Enterprise there really. Back during the Kosovo war B-2s flew bombing runs over Kosovo out of Missouri. The state of Missouri. It was dick waving at its finest. Pimp-handing the world with "we can hit you from anywhere".
Yeah well I'd like to see the logistics chain needed for handling constant CAPs from out of continental US. That's a huge difference.
Lobbing Tomahawks out of the Med though, that's probably right up your alley.
you know europe is like, right north of there
everything you guys don't have in the middle east or at home you have here
also, the rest of NATO is here
I would be surprised to learn most US government officials are aware Europe exists outside of some vague notion of some kind of commie social enclave where people speak french and hate freedom
yyyyyeah that's more the public
you guys have a lot of military manpower and materiel over here
I'm not sure this is a fight the US should be involved in, seems like we haven't given enough munitions to both sides yet (since we seem to have this thing where we give fucktons of ordinance to a country then invade it 2 decades later)
Obama has told congress that US fighters will not be involved; Enterprise is still chillin' in the Red Sea.
Nobody actually knows this because this administration sucks at communicating.
Except for the press conference he had at the end of the first NCAA game on CBS yesterday and explained this. It's not his fault the American public just doesn't pay attention.
Interesting that the French are taking such an active, aggressive role so fast. I guess it's because their oil comes from Libya.
I think it's more a national pride thing, one of the main themes of Sarkozy's administration. He needs to be seen as spearheading this in order to rally his waning approval ratings ahead of next year's election.
I for one am glad that we are taking a backseat in this crisis and letting someone else drive.
It's funny. The same people who gripe and complain about us being "world police" are the same people who are griping and complaining about us not taking a lead role during this.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
Yeah, a Mig-23 in Libyan colors being flown by a rebel and a Mig-23 in Libyan colors being flown by a Gaddafi supporter are hard to tell apart apparently. Fortunately the pilot ejected.
5.46pm: Al-Jazeera is reporting that French war planes have destroyed four Libyan tanks in air strikes to the south west of Benghazi.
5.40pm: French media is reporting that Benghazi rebels admit they shot down their own plane today.
Oh dear
...someone should probably tell them in any case that unless they're going to learn NATO's IFF protocols, the no fly zone kinda applies to them, too.
SammyF on
0
HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
On the one hand, I am extremely nervous about getting involved in another altercation. On the other, I'm way more comfortable with it if the US takes the backseat while the British and French (apparently) take on the offensive. But I also think the Arab states which pushed for this intervention should be the fucking ones leading this, but evidently they're too busy oppressing their own people (See: Saudis in Bahrain) to lend mans and resources.
And on the other other hand, I think Sullivan is having an absolutely hysterical reaction to this
As posted in the ME thread, I'm very glad to hear Canadian aircraft will be involved. If there was ever a respectable use of military hardware, it's in the defense of civilians and those being crushed underfoot by a regime.
God speed and good hunting to those ruling the skies and striving to minimize Gadaffi's ability to massacre his own people.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Its hilarious to see all the Western nations swooping in like vultures. Gaddafi has literally been there for decades, but maybe now, when he's wounded, they can muster the strength to defeat him.
Its hilarious to see all the Western nations swooping in like vultures. Gaddafi has literally been there for decades, but maybe now, when he's wounded, they can muster the strength to defeat him.
I wish him luck in resisting Western imperialism.
I don't see how that is funny. Sad maybe, but funny?
Its hilarious to see all the Western nations swooping in like vultures. Gaddafi has literally been there for decades, but maybe now, when he's wounded, they can muster the strength to defeat him.
I wish him luck in resisting Western imperialism.
They could have "mustered the strength" long ago. Hell, in the early 80's half the US navy was off the Libyan coast. But, like Iraq and Afghanistan it would've been an invasion of a sovereign nation just because he was a "bad guy".
Now, however, it's a people's revolt. The citizens of Libya want it for themselves. And there's no shame in helping an oppressed population fight their oppressor.
Interesting that the French are taking such an active, aggressive role so fast. I guess it's because their oil comes from Libya.
I think it's more a national pride thing, one of the main themes of Sarkozy's administration. He needs to be seen as spearheading this in order to rally his waning approval ratings ahead of next year's election.
My impression is that it's a combination of the two factors. Sarkozy spoiling for a win, and it's not looking like he's going to get that on the domestic front with all the labor disputes. I wouldn't describe it as politically calculating, necessarily, just that he's motivated. Additionally, France does have strategic interests in Libya and some stronger domestic political considerations related to the country's immigrant population from North Africa which makes an aggressive approach more popular.
Its hilarious to see all the Western nations swooping in like vultures. Gaddafi has literally been there for decades, but maybe now, when he's wounded, they can muster the strength to defeat him.
I wish him luck in resisting Western imperialism.
They could have "mustered the strength" long ago. Hell, in the early 80's half the US navy was off the Libyan coast. But, like Iraq and Afghanistan it would've been an invasion of a sovereign nation just because he was a "bad guy".
Now, however, it's a people's revolt. The citizens of Libya want it for themselves. And there's no shame in helping an oppressed population fight their oppressor.
To be fair, despite Obama's words, he's been very restrained in his actions. Which is good.
There have been revolts in the past, crushed of course. I think the difference is that this time there is no Cold War two bloc balance to be maintained, media coverage is far better and the "movement" across the Middle East has focused attention in a way that it did not before. Also, Britain has a new government who would like to have a "win" and France's president needs one as well given elections are coming soon
Yes, allowing nations to inflict horrors upon their own population is a blight that will remain upon humanity and particularly those nations who could have done something about it for the duration of our recorded history.
However, what has changed is that it's not The Great Western Saviours who are swooping in to uplift the downtrodden here. Support is instead being given to a group of Libyans who finally had enough of Gaddafi's bullshit and decided "you know what? Fuck that guy" and chose to do something about him. They put their lives on the line and were opposed by modern military firepower and mercenaries.
Perhaps it's semantics, but the key difference I see it is that regardless of how much assistance is given, it is assistance, treating the rebels as something closer to equals than as lesser peoples in need of saving. No matter how many tanks and bunkers are destroyed by international forces, hopefully this regime change succeeds based on the will of the Libyan people and those who supported them.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Britain has a new government who would like to have a "win" and France's president needs one as well given elections are coming soon
Well, that's it, really.
Its all fun and games watching people rise up against their incompetent governments, but when your incompetent government sees an opportunity to divert people's attention from their real problems at home, you know you are in for another fun ride. America would be all over this under normal circumstances, but there already are multiple foreign wars going. Who knows though, maybe they'll plunge in anyway.
Britain has a new government who would like to have a "win" and France's president needs one as well given elections are coming soon
Well, that's it, really.
I certainly think it is part of it. That being said, I do think that at least part of the cabinet in Britain have a certain amount of idealism etc. Then there is the political issue of Lockerbie - Cameron and the Tories were not happy with Labour's cosying up to Gaddafi, especially wrt the bomber Megrahi. So if Britain stages a successful deployment here, then they make Labour and Tony Blair look rather foolish
Its hilarious to see all the Western nations swooping in like vultures. Gaddafi has literally been there for decades, but maybe now, when he's wounded, they can muster the strength to defeat him.
I wish him luck in resisting Western imperialism.
They could have "mustered the strength" long ago. Hell, in the early 80's half the US navy was off the Libyan coast. But, like Iraq and Afghanistan it would've been an invasion of a sovereign nation just because he was a "bad guy".
Now, however, it's a people's revolt. The citizens of Libya want it for themselves. And there's no shame in helping an oppressed population fight their oppressor.
That's not why we're doing anything though. As we are blissfully ignoring/endorsing the actions of the Bahrain and Yemeni governments.
enlightenedbum on
The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
Posts
the rebels report that they're seeing gaddafi's army fight itself
so, not very much, I'd wager
Yeah well I'd like to see the logistics chain needed for handling constant CAPs from out of continental US. That's a huge difference.
Lobbing Tomahawks out of the Med though, that's probably right up your alley.
being bombed can ruin your entire day
you know europe is like, right north of there
everything you guys don't have in the middle east or at home you have here
also, the rest of NATO is here
It seems he seeks to maintain his control over Libya, regardless of how many Libyans he has to kill to do so. If that means killing them all, I'm fairly certain he's okay with that.
To borrow from Alan Moore, as long as he gets his way, he won't mind being the richest dictator on the cinder.
Drive out al-qaida, adopt Barack Obama and fuck NATO's shit up, seems to be his plan
judging from his press releases
I would be surprised to learn most US government officials are aware Europe exists outside of some vague notion of some kind of commie social enclave where people speak french and hate freedom
yyyyyeah that's more the public
you guys have a lot of military manpower and materiel over here
we're going to war again woop-de-whoo!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12787015
Seeing how Ivory Coast doesn't have much oil, I doubt we'll be seeing any intervention here.
Except for the press conference he had at the end of the first NCAA game on CBS yesterday and explained this. It's not his fault the American public just doesn't pay attention.
I think it's more a national pride thing, one of the main themes of Sarkozy's administration. He needs to be seen as spearheading this in order to rally his waning approval ratings ahead of next year's election.
It's funny. The same people who gripe and complain about us being "world police" are the same people who are griping and complaining about us not taking a lead role during this.
WTF GEESE!? YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!
Oh dear
The fog of war also covers cities it seems
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
...someone should probably tell them in any case that unless they're going to learn NATO's IFF protocols, the no fly zone kinda applies to them, too.
And on the other other hand, I think Sullivan is having an absolutely hysterical reaction to this
NNID: Hakkekage
God speed and good hunting to those ruling the skies and striving to minimize Gadaffi's ability to massacre his own people.
I wish him luck in resisting Western imperialism.
I don't see how that is funny. Sad maybe, but funny?
Black humor.
Now, however, it's a people's revolt. The citizens of Libya want it for themselves. And there's no shame in helping an oppressed population fight their oppressor.
My impression is that it's a combination of the two factors. Sarkozy spoiling for a win, and it's not looking like he's going to get that on the domestic front with all the labor disputes. I wouldn't describe it as politically calculating, necessarily, just that he's motivated. Additionally, France does have strategic interests in Libya and some stronger domestic political considerations related to the country's immigrant population from North Africa which makes an aggressive approach more popular.
To be fair, despite Obama's words, he's been very restrained in his actions. Which is good.
However, what has changed is that it's not The Great Western Saviours who are swooping in to uplift the downtrodden here. Support is instead being given to a group of Libyans who finally had enough of Gaddafi's bullshit and decided "you know what? Fuck that guy" and chose to do something about him. They put their lives on the line and were opposed by modern military firepower and mercenaries.
Perhaps it's semantics, but the key difference I see it is that regardless of how much assistance is given, it is assistance, treating the rebels as something closer to equals than as lesser peoples in need of saving. No matter how many tanks and bunkers are destroyed by international forces, hopefully this regime change succeeds based on the will of the Libyan people and those who supported them.
Well, that's it, really.
Its all fun and games watching people rise up against their incompetent governments, but when your incompetent government sees an opportunity to divert people's attention from their real problems at home, you know you are in for another fun ride. America would be all over this under normal circumstances, but there already are multiple foreign wars going. Who knows though, maybe they'll plunge in anyway.
I certainly think it is part of it. That being said, I do think that at least part of the cabinet in Britain have a certain amount of idealism etc. Then there is the political issue of Lockerbie - Cameron and the Tories were not happy with Labour's cosying up to Gaddafi, especially wrt the bomber Megrahi. So if Britain stages a successful deployment here, then they make Labour and Tony Blair look rather foolish
That's not why we're doing anything though. As we are blissfully ignoring/endorsing the actions of the Bahrain and Yemeni governments.