Look at sword knights. They look underwhelming, but they can turn into tiny blenders. Just about anything you can do for storm knights works with sword knights too. Just trigger flank and go to town.
I can see why Cygnar doesn't use Sword Knights much, but I'd kill for them as Menoth. They'd go great with Devouts and would shore up some weakness for guys like Reclaimer and Vindictus.
I use them with eStryker at 35 points, and also sometimes at 50. Arcane Shield, Deflection, and Defensive Line puts them at ARM 21 against magic and shooting which is pretty respectable.
I had a grand old time at Warmachine night tonight. I'm trying to get used to turn time limits, and this game really speeds up on ten minute turns. No time for my mind to wander. I'm going to spend some time getting familiar with the SR 2012 rules this week, and try to start playing scenarios with timed turns every game. It really makes the game better.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I had a grand old time at Warmachine night tonight. I'm trying to get used to turn time limits, and this game really speeds up on ten minute turns. No time for my mind to wander. I'm going to spend some time getting familiar with the SR 2012 rules this week, and try to start playing scenarios with timed turns every game. It really makes the game better.
There are two tournaments coming up in the area -- 3/3 and 3/10 at 3G and Card Kingdom respectively. You should try and make it!
I had a grand old time at Warmachine night tonight. I'm trying to get used to turn time limits, and this game really speeds up on ten minute turns. No time for my mind to wander. I'm going to spend some time getting familiar with the SR 2012 rules this week, and try to start playing scenarios with timed turns every game. It really makes the game better.
There are two tournaments coming up in the area -- 3/3 and 3/10 at 3G and Card Kingdom respectively. You should try and make it!
I think I'll be able to make it up to the 3/10 at CK. Tournaments are a new and terrifying arena for me. I figure the safest way to play will be to just take some lists that are fun to play and not be to serious about the whole thing.
Edit: What do my fellow Cygnar players think of this tactics article from the PP forums? Kara Sloan Tactics
She was my first caster, and I really like the ranged attrition play that she can pull off. I think the article makes a really good analysis of her playstyle and brings up some tactics that I hadn't considered before. I'm always interested in making Sloan a more effective caster, and I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Herp derped pSevvy into Saeryn-free-strike-immune-slipstreamed Angelius range yesterday. I need to play against more Legion, Cryx, and really, not-Khador.
I had a pretty brutal game of Scaverous vs Kromac tonight, 50 points. Barely won at the end, but it was a brutal fight. Unfortunately I still don't have Deathjack despite having ordered him at an LGS over 2 weeks ago; that woulda made things a bit easier on me.
Also, mysteriously not being able to find cards for figs that you own is pretty annoying.
Don't use Vindictus's feat against a caster with Influence. Your dudes will kill your own dudes, and then take a damage for doing it.
THE MORE YOU KNOW...
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited February 2012
I think I have enough stuff now. I'm getting my tax return soon and there really isn't anything I want to buy. Of course, at this point, I need to paint a lot of it. Modeling time!
Edit: Unless I want to start that Circle Army. Hmm...
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Under Influence, I suppose they don't count as friendly models anymore? That is nasty. pHexeris and his feat might also be a poor matchup in that sense.
Anybody got any advice for getting dedicated Warhammer and 40k players to try Warmachine or Hordes? I'm thinking of putting together 2 good armies for Warmachine, just to get some people around here to give it a chance.
Anybody got any advice for getting dedicated Warhammer and 40k players to try Warmachine or Hordes? I'm thinking of putting together 2 good armies for Warmachine, just to get some people around here to give it a chance.
Battleboxes. Battleboxes & quick and dirty demo games are your friends. Remember the words of the wise pusher: Make the first taste free, and they'll be hooked until they die with a needle hanging out of their arm.
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited February 2012
Just grab two battleboxes and go. Pick the ones you think look the coolest. It might even be worth getting the two player battlebox as you get more models, a full rulebook, and some extra goodies (dice, rules etc).
You can get one Hordes box and one Warmachine box, as the games can be played against each other.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Anybody got any advice for getting dedicated Warhammer and 40k players to try Warmachine or Hordes? I'm thinking of putting together 2 good armies for Warmachine, just to get some people around here to give it a chance.
Play it around them.
Don't badmouth their games in their presence.
Talk up the badass things you can do in the game -- slams, two-handed throws, etc.
VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Yeah, don't get into any sort of comparison argument. Just play the game, have fun (make sure they see how much fun you're having), and they'll be itching to play in no time.
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
Ideally I'd go with the Menoth and Cygnar battleboxes, and the Skorne and Circle battle boxes. They're probably the most balanced against each other on the whole, and they have the same breakdown (1 heavy, 2 lights). That way you can do Warmachine vs Warmachine, Hordes vs Hordes, or a mix of the two.
Thanks for the advice guys, I think I will probably order a couple battleboxes of each . I'm not trying to badmouth or get people to quit playing Warhammer, but my gaming groups have been focused on Warhammer for wargames and D&D for RPGs for years. I want to try new things!
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
I wanted to show this off here, because I'm pretty proud of how it turned out. The below pic is of Thyra, the Protectorate caster from Wrath. I converted her from an idea I got after reading her story and background in that book - she's standing on eMagnus' base, which is part of a wrecked Cygnar light jack. I had to dremel out a bunch of her robes underneath and bend her front leg a bit to get her to fit correctly, but I think it turned out awesome. She was painted using my "dipping" technique - basecoated in colors, then Minwax woodstain was painted on with a brush. Some small highlights were added after it dried and was hit with matte varnish, and her face was detailed more.
Anybody got any advice for getting dedicated Warhammer and 40k players to try Warmachine or Hordes? I'm thinking of putting together 2 good armies for Warmachine, just to get some people around here to give it a chance.
It's been pretty easy in my area. A bunch of 40k players will be playing games and then from across the room you'll hear a dozen WM players going "Oh MY GOD look at this shit! That was ridiculous!" while the 40k players all peak their heads up and try to see what's going on to cause such a ruckus :P
Just having people playing the game while they're around has converted a bunch of warhammer players. Not that they stopped playing GW games, but they play PP stuff now too.
Interestingly, it looks like no qualifier for Masters this year, just a pre-tournament to determine seeds. Also, the Speedmachine tourney sounds so, so fun and I do intend to win it.
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
The Friday tournament is a qualifier...
16 minutes for Speechmachine is fucking fantastic.
I would say go for the 2 player starter box that comes with more stuff. One of the big whoah factors for me was how infantry functions in this game as compared to 40k and the battleboxes have no infantry.
Also the balance on the battle boxes kinda blows and I can see some match ups (khador vs. cryx) really turning off a new player who doesn't know much about the game. I'm pretty new to this game myself, and I still get frustrated by some of this games incredibly unfun mechanics sometimes, even when I know they are coming.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Man, I'm jealous. Never been to a big event like that and I am in NYC. No Lock and Load for me.
I'm definitely getting better, but I still can't beat most of the top players in my meta.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
In all seriousness, they use the word "seed" but they really just mean "qualify." The Masters event has no reserved seats because you can't reserve a seat. The reason both descriptions say 128 players is because they used the same description page for both events.
For more technical evidence: the Masters tournament is listed as three rounds and you cannot run a 128 player tournament in three rounds; you would have 16 winners.
If this is true, it saddens me as I will not be able to participate in the Masters Qualifiers on Friday and therefore will not be able to participate in the Masters Sunday. Oh well. At least there's the 'Blood Sweat and Tiers', 'Speedmachine', and '3 Commanders' tournaments to play in. I've already got my list for Speedmachine: Mohsar, a WWStalker, a FeralWW, and Megalith. Come get some, b****es.
2010 PAX DM Challenge Grand Champion 2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
If this is true, it saddens me as I will not be able to participate in the Masters Qualifiers on Friday and therefore will not be able to participate in the Masters Sunday.
An optimist, eh?
I'm more disappointed that I can't plan on failing out of the Qualifier and arrange a three-man team, because on the off chance that I make it through I'll have ruined two other people's day. It seems like the team tournament should be on Saturday and the Masters should overlap with weird things, like Tiers and Speedmachine.
My current plan is to sign up for the Qualifier, Tiers, and Speedmachine. If I somehow qualify I'll drop out of Tiers and Speedmachine and use Saturday as a practice/relaxation day.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
(Sort of going back a few posts here):
I think most Cygnar dislike Sword Knights because they need babysitting (As SJ said, they are best when used with spells like Arcane Shield), which puts strain on our limited Focus casters and they don't synergize terribly well with a lot of Cygnar meta right now. Right now, I see Sword Knights as a counter pick. It's something you put in your list when you understand your local meta well, or you know your playing against a list where Sword Knights are going to be super useful.
In almost every normal case, the Stormblade's are going to synergize better with the poke and prod, fast strike, nature of the way Cygnar is played right now.
Sword Knights are ten bodies for six points, and if timed right, weapon masters. They soak up bullets for your back line, and if they don't take them out, you flank the shit out of them.
I don't bother putting upkeeps on TFG, Zealots, McThralls, etc. (10 for 6 units) unless I'm dead sure that they're going to be targeted or if I simply need them to stay alive/kill something.
I think most Cygnar dislike Sword Knights because they need babysitting (As SJ said, they are best when used with spells like Arcane Shield), which puts strain on our limited Focus casters and they don't synergize terribly well with a lot of Cygnar meta right now. Right now, I see Sword Knights as a counter pick. It's something you put in your list when you understand your local meta well, or you know your playing against a list where Sword Knights are going to be super useful.
In almost every normal case, the Stormblade's are going to synergize better with the poke and prod, fast strike, nature of the way Cygnar is played right now.
Cygnar needs some unit to stand in front. Sword Knights provide the best combination of cheap, fast, durable and disposable. Combine this with the fact that support for sword knights either:
a) Also benefits the rest of your army (deflection, deceleration);
b) Can be reapplied to other important models after the sword knights are committed (arcane shield, blur, polarity field, Rhupert/Runewood, Jr.); or
c) Is useful on it's own (reach jacks).
The end result is that bringing Sword Knights puts little additional burden on your caster and gives you a unit which takes the enemy inordinate effort to remove. This gives you time to kill key enemy models at range with your other units or jacks. If necessary your sword knights can also become nasty melee threats with just a little bit of clever positioning. They aren't quite the tarpit that Boomhowler is, but they're more offensively dangerous and cheaper.
They need the buffs, but so does every Cygnar unit except Gun Mages. Even Gun Mages really like deadeye.
I know you guys don't get much of that sweet, sweet weapon master action, but if you get even one SK to charge+flank a jack, that's very often an entire line and change, if not a system.
Cygnar might not have the jacks to really force that kind of situation, but even making your opponent move around it can be useful.
If you can get three or four sword knights on a jack, It's often worth sending your lancer or firefly in to certain doom to confirm the kill. Cygnar doesn't usually bring more than one heavy, so crippling an opposing heavy jack without risking your own heavy can really swing the game's momentum.
Alternately, you can use long gunners, a defender or a storm strider to force the enemy to move to engage as quickly as possible, making it easier to pull off flank defensively while screening your more expensive ranged options.
They aren't invincible - high damaged ranged specialists like bloodtrackers and invictors will give them trouble - but even then you gain by forcing such dangerous troops to focus on your chaff instead of your heavy jacks or your caster.
Edit: @GnomeTank I'd like you to elaborate on what you mean. I'd like to hear your take on the Cygnar meta. I agree that we can do a really good skirmishing list via things like rangers, gun mages, trencher commandos and storm lances. I like to play that way, but I've been having increasing difficulty pulling it off as my local opponents learn how to engage me and limit my mobility. Skirmishing also tends to fall apart against lists designed to jam you with masses of models or large numbers of beasts/jacks. Maybe I'm missing something though, and I'd like to hear your perspective.
In almost every normal case, the Stormblade's are going to synergize better with the poke and prod, fast strike, nature of the way Cygnar is played right now.
This is an odd position to take considering how limited their mobility and threat ranges are. I know for eStryker I always prefer Sword Knights because I have the option of a 12" run + 3.5" feat attack as opposed to the 'blades 10+3.5. That can make a big difference, especially when you run a Positive Charge laden lancer up the center to help them out.
Posts
There are two tournaments coming up in the area -- 3/3 and 3/10 at 3G and Card Kingdom respectively. You should try and make it!
I think I'll be able to make it up to the 3/10 at CK. Tournaments are a new and terrifying arena for me. I figure the safest way to play will be to just take some lists that are fun to play and not be to serious about the whole thing.
Edit: What do my fellow Cygnar players think of this tactics article from the PP forums?
Kara Sloan Tactics
She was my first caster, and I really like the ranged attrition play that she can pull off. I think the article makes a really good analysis of her playstyle and brings up some tactics that I hadn't considered before. I'm always interested in making Sloan a more effective caster, and I'd be interested in your thoughts.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Still, I got my faction coin today. First one ever.
You lucky dude. I still havn't gotten a coin, and I've been playing since the second book.
The one time I *might've*, there wasn't a Ret coin in the kits yet.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Also, mysteriously not being able to find cards for figs that you own is pretty annoying.
Don't use Vindictus's feat against a caster with Influence. Your dudes will kill your own dudes, and then take a damage for doing it.
THE MORE YOU KNOW...
Edit: Unless I want to start that Circle Army. Hmm...
Battleboxes. Battleboxes & quick and dirty demo games are your friends. Remember the words of the wise pusher: Make the first taste free, and they'll be hooked until they die with a needle hanging out of their arm.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
You can get one Hordes box and one Warmachine box, as the games can be played against each other.
Play it around them.
Don't badmouth their games in their presence.
Talk up the badass things you can do in the game -- slams, two-handed throws, etc.
Quick demo games.
It's been pretty easy in my area. A bunch of 40k players will be playing games and then from across the room you'll hear a dozen WM players going "Oh MY GOD look at this shit! That was ridiculous!" while the 40k players all peak their heads up and try to see what's going on to cause such a ruckus :P
Just having people playing the game while they're around has converted a bunch of warhammer players. Not that they stopped playing GW games, but they play PP stuff now too.
Interestingly, it looks like no qualifier for Masters this year, just a pre-tournament to determine seeds. Also, the Speedmachine tourney sounds so, so fun and I do intend to win it.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
16 minutes for Speechmachine is fucking fantastic.
EDIT: *shrug* Perhaps I'm smoking crack again. Oh well.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
Also the balance on the battle boxes kinda blows and I can see some match ups (khador vs. cryx) really turning off a new player who doesn't know much about the game. I'm pretty new to this game myself, and I still get frustrated by some of this games incredibly unfun mechanics sometimes, even when I know they are coming.
I'm definitely getting better, but I still can't beat most of the top players in my meta.
You should stick to crack on the weekends!
In all seriousness, they use the word "seed" but they really just mean "qualify." The Masters event has no reserved seats because you can't reserve a seat. The reason both descriptions say 128 players is because they used the same description page for both events.
For more technical evidence: the Masters tournament is listed as three rounds and you cannot run a 128 player tournament in three rounds; you would have 16 winners.
If this is true, it saddens me as I will not be able to participate in the Masters Qualifiers on Friday and therefore will not be able to participate in the Masters Sunday. Oh well. At least there's the 'Blood Sweat and Tiers', 'Speedmachine', and '3 Commanders' tournaments to play in. I've already got my list for Speedmachine: Mohsar, a WWStalker, a FeralWW, and Megalith. Come get some, b****es.
2011 PAX Warmachine/Hordes Champion
An optimist, eh?
I'm more disappointed that I can't plan on failing out of the Qualifier and arrange a three-man team, because on the off chance that I make it through I'll have ruined two other people's day. It seems like the team tournament should be on Saturday and the Masters should overlap with weird things, like Tiers and Speedmachine.
My current plan is to sign up for the Qualifier, Tiers, and Speedmachine. If I somehow qualify I'll drop out of Tiers and Speedmachine and use Saturday as a practice/relaxation day.
I think most Cygnar dislike Sword Knights because they need babysitting (As SJ said, they are best when used with spells like Arcane Shield), which puts strain on our limited Focus casters and they don't synergize terribly well with a lot of Cygnar meta right now. Right now, I see Sword Knights as a counter pick. It's something you put in your list when you understand your local meta well, or you know your playing against a list where Sword Knights are going to be super useful.
In almost every normal case, the Stormblade's are going to synergize better with the poke and prod, fast strike, nature of the way Cygnar is played right now.
Also a full unit plus the Journeyman clocks in at 8 9 points, which is relatively cheap
I shake my fist at you admanb
I don't bother putting upkeeps on TFG, Zealots, McThralls, etc. (10 for 6 units) unless I'm dead sure that they're going to be targeted or if I simply need them to stay alive/kill something.
Cygnar needs some unit to stand in front. Sword Knights provide the best combination of cheap, fast, durable and disposable. Combine this with the fact that support for sword knights either:
a) Also benefits the rest of your army (deflection, deceleration);
b) Can be reapplied to other important models after the sword knights are committed (arcane shield, blur, polarity field, Rhupert/Runewood, Jr.); or
c) Is useful on it's own (reach jacks).
The end result is that bringing Sword Knights puts little additional burden on your caster and gives you a unit which takes the enemy inordinate effort to remove. This gives you time to kill key enemy models at range with your other units or jacks. If necessary your sword knights can also become nasty melee threats with just a little bit of clever positioning. They aren't quite the tarpit that Boomhowler is, but they're more offensively dangerous and cheaper.
They need the buffs, but so does every Cygnar unit except Gun Mages. Even Gun Mages really like deadeye.
Cygnar might not have the jacks to really force that kind of situation, but even making your opponent move around it can be useful.
Alternately, you can use long gunners, a defender or a storm strider to force the enemy to move to engage as quickly as possible, making it easier to pull off flank defensively while screening your more expensive ranged options.
They aren't invincible - high damaged ranged specialists like bloodtrackers and invictors will give them trouble - but even then you gain by forcing such dangerous troops to focus on your chaff instead of your heavy jacks or your caster.
Edit: @GnomeTank I'd like you to elaborate on what you mean. I'd like to hear your take on the Cygnar meta. I agree that we can do a really good skirmishing list via things like rangers, gun mages, trencher commandos and storm lances. I like to play that way, but I've been having increasing difficulty pulling it off as my local opponents learn how to engage me and limit my mobility. Skirmishing also tends to fall apart against lists designed to jam you with masses of models or large numbers of beasts/jacks. Maybe I'm missing something though, and I'd like to hear your perspective.
This is an odd position to take considering how limited their mobility and threat ranges are. I know for eStryker I always prefer Sword Knights because I have the option of a 12" run + 3.5" feat attack as opposed to the 'blades 10+3.5. That can make a big difference, especially when you run a Positive Charge laden lancer up the center to help them out.