[WARMACHINE & HORDES] Now with even GIANTEST robots

Vanguard

From all the theorymachine I've read, Zealots are the cheap infantry to take with her. The real benefit of taking Errants with her is that they shoot. Thyra usually doesn't have much in the way of range, and Errants can absolutely mow down an entire unit with good positioning on the feat turn. I like to crowd them behind a house or some larger obstacle, pop feat, place, and then declare charges.

TheConstantWay

Man, podcasts.

I do love me some Chain-Attack, but some of the match-ups they choose just make me go whaaaa? Darius vs. Absylonia?

SJ

At least the game wouldn't last that long

susan

TheConstantWay wrote: »

Man, podcasts.

I do love me some Chain-Attack, but some of the match-ups they choose just make me go whaaaa? Darius vs. Absylonia?

They've also only had one Circle warlock ever win a match (Grayle vs Gorton), and they game Mohsar an 'F' ranking. This saddens me. Though I do still listen to and enjoy the podcast.

admanb

susan wrote: »

TheConstantWay wrote: »

Man, podcasts.

I do love me some Chain-Attack, but some of the match-ups they choose just make me go whaaaa? Darius vs. Absylonia?

They've also only had one Circle warlock ever win a match (Grayle vs Gorton), and they game Mohsar an 'F' ranking. This saddens me. Though I do still listen to and enjoy the podcast.

lol wut

admanb

That's pretty much why I can't listen to podcasts: unless I have some evidence of their skill I can't assume that their theory machine is based on good play on the table, which basically makes them forum posters that talk into my ear.

SJ

They got chewed up in their forums about it and I think admitted that they needed to give him another try. The problem with their system isn't even that they rank things, it's that they rank things in a general manner as opposed to how well something performed in the matchup they were playing. It's one thing to say Moshar is an F and another thing to say that Moshar was an F in this matchup, which is not what happens unfortunately.

Caenem

Yeah Chain Attack admitted their f up on Mohsar. They had someone from the Detroit meta (I wanna say it was Pagani) on and they admitted their rankings were a little...off. They can be fun though. They occasionally have some "names" on and ask at least semi-intelligent questions. Their show with Neutralyze was pretty good and they had a long conversation about eVayl. I'd be really interested to see how that conversation would go now since he's committed to eVayl as one of his casters this year.

admanb

Pagini was on their eBaldur show.

Pagini ran Mohsar in the L&L Masters. He wouldn't have stood for an "F."

susan

I'm bringing Mohsar to L&L Speedmachine. I reeeeeeeeally hope I come up against one of them.

Anon the Felon

So, I asked about Darius, and since receiving the expert opinion (and reading all sorts of other sources) here...I'm probably dropping that idea.

What about Karchev?

kaorti

Karchev is a beast. He's got a limited number of tricks, but they are very good tricks. Unearthly rage is practically a feat, and Tow is great for enhancing jack mobility.

SJ

Anon the Felon wrote: »

So, I asked about Darius, and since receiving the expert opinion (and reading all sorts of other sources) here...I'm probably dropping that idea.

What about Karchev?

Solid generally speaking, though his bad matchups are very bad for him. But he's infinitely better than Darius. Go for it.

Anon the Felon

Oh great oracle, do you have any suggestions?

My initial concept was something involving Bombards, Mechanik's + Officer, and maybe some Kodiak action?

kaorti

Kodiaks and Berserkers are good with him. The Behemoth is popular because it brings two bombards and nasty melee threat. Khador Mechaniks are great, and their ability to repair Karchev is really useful. Think about bringing Reinholdt for an extra spray with Karchev.

Maybe something like this:

Karchev the Terrible (*5pts)
* Berserker (6pts)
* Berserker (6pts)
* Kodiak (8pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
* Battle Mechanik Officer (2pts)
Man-o-war Bombardiers (Leader and 4 Grunts) (11pts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (4pts)

Edit: I should say that I don't play Khador, so it's a pretty good bet that this list isn't optimal. Still, it's got good synergy with Karchev's spell list, lots of hit points and high armor, and the ability to repair the front line models. The Bombadiers provide AoE coverage to help deal with chaff and high defense infantry, and the Widowmakers provide spot removal.

SJ

I'd probably suggest something like this; plenty of ways to kill infantry and hard targets, plus lots of cloud effects for you to enjoy concealment from. Plus: Grenade Launchers! And using Karchev's giant fuck off spray twice a turn!

Points: 35/35
Karchev the Terrible (*5pts)
* Berserker (6pts)
* Kodiak (8pts)
* Spriggan (10pts)
Battle Mechaniks (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Greylord Ternion (Leader and 2 Grunts) (4pts)
Man-o-war Bombardiers (Leader and 2 Grunts) (7pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)

TheConstantWay

Theorymachine: Have something to kill Eiryss. She will ruin Karchev's day.

kaorti

Someone please explain to me how eHaley is supposed to work. I cannot seem to make her function. I think I'm running a pretty standard list:

Points: 35/35
Major Victoria Haley (*5pts)
* Lancer (6pts)
* Stormclad (10pts) (Bonded)
* Squire (2pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)
Precursor Knights (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Precursor Knight Officer & Standard (2pts)
Captain Arlan Strangewayes (2pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)

But I can't seem to sync my play with her strengths. People talk about her like she's a power caster. She has a bunch of utility, but she's so focus-hungry that I can't really use it.

admanb

She is far less powerful than people say, but she is vital to Cygnar because of the importance of control feats. I will have thoughts for you tomorrow because I am tired.

tzeentchling

I would think you'd have Thorn in that list. Her character lancer is pretty good.

Inquisitor

So, I'm going to start making terrain for my Warmachine group to play with. I want to make sure I hit the basic essentials at least that you'd want to play the game. What should I make sure to have? A couple forests, a hill, some low walls, maybe a small building, some ruins? I'm not even sure how terrain dense a Warmachine table is on average.

kaorti

tzeentchling wrote: »

I would think you'd have Thorn in that list. Her character lancer is pretty good.

I've never really felt like I wanted Thorn in the list. The Lancer + Arlan can do most of what thorn can (disengage, disrupt), and Arlan's ability to stick the Arc Node back on the Lancer has been invaluable against some ranged-heavy enemies.

Inquisitor wrote: »

So, I'm going to start making terrain for my Warmachine group to play with. I want to make sure I hit the basic essentials at least that you'd want to play the game. What should I make sure to have? A couple forests, a hill, some low walls, maybe a small building, some ruins? I'm not even sure how terrain dense a Warmachine table is on average.

You've got the general idea. Terrain isn't that dense on most tables. I usually don't play with more than six pieces of terrain. Maybe consider a small pond and some obelisks or boulders?

TheConstantWay

kaorti wrote: »

Someone please explain to me how eHaley is supposed to work. I cannot seem to make her function.

It's not you, it's her. You should go your separate ways before the break-up gets ugly. She's just not worth it.


;D

AbesolutZERO

1. Get her a Squire.
2. Get most of their army in their control area.
3. Use your feat.
4. ????
5. PROFIT

susan

I got to live out one of my dreams today:

Mohsar killed Venethrax. In hand to hand combat.

F**k yeah.

Vanguard

So I've been pretty set on making Circle my next faction, but I think I might just start Cygnar. They were my second pick after Menoth and I would love to do a bright yellow scheme. Thinking about grabbing the battle box, Stormclad, Rangers, Stormguard, and a few other things to start. pNemo, Kara Sloan, and Constance Blaze too.

Vanguard

I listed so much stuff I had to post twice.

SJ

Vanguard wrote: »

So I've been pretty set on making Circle my next faction, but I think I might just start Cygnar. They were my second pick after Menoth and I would love to do a bright yellow scheme. Thinking about grabbing the battle box, Stormclad, Rangers, Stormguard, and a few other things to start. pNemo, Kara Sloan, and Constance Blaze too.

All of the casters you posted are sub par/mediocre and the battlebox contains nothing you'll end up using very often other than a lancer.

Carnarvon

SJ wrote: »

Vanguard wrote: »

So I've been pretty set on making Circle my next faction, but I think I might just start Cygnar. They were my second pick after Menoth and I would love to do a bright yellow scheme. Thinking about grabbing the battle box, Stormclad, Rangers, Stormguard, and a few other things to start. pNemo, Kara Sloan, and Constance Blaze too.

All of the casters you posted are sub par/mediocre and the battlebox contains nothing you'll end up using very often other than a lancer.

You best get out of town before Kaorti gets here.

Anon the Felon

SJ thinks everything is sub par/medicore though.

SJ

Why? pNemo is one of my favorite casters and I love playing Sloan but I'm not going to pretend that they're super stars.

kaorti

Vanguard wrote: »

So I've been pretty set on making Circle my next faction, but I think I might just start Cygnar. They were my second pick after Menoth and I would love to do a bright yellow scheme. Thinking about grabbing the battle box, Stormclad, Rangers, Stormguard, and a few other things to start. pNemo, Kara Sloan, and Constance Blaze too.

Sloan and Blaize are great casters, but they have some seriously bad match-ups which limit their tournament viability. I don't play pNemo, so I can't really speak to him.

Cygnar's tournament casters either give no fucks and kill the enemy (eStryker, eCaine) or have a tool for every situation (eHaley). That said, any caster is viable and the ones you list are super fun. Just try to avoid those match-ups which negate their abilities.

Personally I think that Sloan is much more dangerous now that the avenger and storm strider are in play.

Looking at units and Jacks:
pNemo usually runs with the Thunderhead and a Lancer. He can also do well with melee jacks in general, but he prefers to supercharge one already good jack rather than to run multiple heavies at once.

Blaize likes cheap infantry. Precursor knights and sword knights fit her lists very well. Stormguard shine with her as well. She brings Gallant and maybe one other jack, usually a light. The Black 13th are usually all the ranged options she brings.

Sloan likes ranged jacks and ranged infantry. Defenders and hunters are standard on her, and the avenger and the minuteman will be cool when they come out. The Storm Strider makes a great centerpiece for her lists as well. For infantry she likes Gun Mages, Rangers and Trencher Commandos. The Commandos are especially useful, since they can clear infantry swarms while still providing Sloan with a proficient melee front line. It's possible to build a storm-themed Sloan list with Refuge on a Stormclad, Stormblades and a Storm Strider, but I don't think that it brings out her best.

You might have noticed that none of my recommendations overlap. pNemo Blaize and Sloan all have wildly divergent toolsets. If you want to get much out of them while limiting the cost you should try proxying them, decide who you like best, and build with them in mind.

Edit: SJ is right when he says that you probably will only use the lancer from the battlebox. The charger is a great jack which wants way too much focus. The Ironclad is solid, but our infantry costs too much to justify taking a back-up heavy, and the points are better spent on making sure that our primary heavy is awesome.

SJ

I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that Sloan is a great caster. She's got a good feat and a good gun but half of her spell list is absolute garbage.

kaorti

SJ wrote: »

I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that Sloan is a great caster. She's got a good feat and a good gun but half of her spell list is absolute garbage.

Yeah her spell list is dumb. Refuge is essential. Fire group is useful in some situations and Deadeye can come up occasionally, But the rest is filler.

I'm kinda insulted that you'd accuse me of being disingenuous. Sloan isn't an assassin like eCaine, but she brings a fun, surprisingly effective ranged attrition game to Cygnar. Just because she isn't at the top of the bell curve for tournaments doesn't make her weak or a bad choice.

SJ

Well when I hear 'great caster' I don't think of casters that have pretty big deficiencies in arguably the most important thing about a caster (their spell list). Like I said, I love playing her (especially since it gives me a great reason to use my Commandos).

And I don't think you are disingenuous, just the labeling of Sloan as a 'great' caster. Didn't mean to offend, so sorry if I did. :bz

kaorti

SJ wrote: »

Well when I hear 'great caster' I don't think of casters that have pretty big deficiencies in arguably the most important thing about a caster (their spell list). Like I said, I love playing her (especially since it gives me a great reason to use my Commandos).

And I don't think you are disingenuous, just the labeling of Sloan as a 'great' caster. Didn't mean to offend, so sorry if I did. :bz

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I read disingenuous as a synonym for insincere. I suspect the whole thread knows how sincerely I like the way Sloan plays. :P I'm perfectly happy to accept that you think I'm wrong.

Regarding the Spell list: the main problem is that her spell list dosen't add any interesting new possibilities. It gives her the essential tools and then leaves her with generic filler. It's a missed opportunity for fun. That said, I don't think that it has a significant negative impact on her power, and the useful spells she does have allow for fun plays on the table. Sloan's focus use is pretty unusual: once her list is build she knows exacly where every point of focus is going every turn until her jacks start to die.
Since she has a productive place to put every bit of her focus, the fact that she isn't using all of her spells doesn't hurt her that much on the table. She lives on boosting the damage her jacks do and disassembling the enemy list, not on spell shenanigans.

That said, she does lack the tools to deal with some enemy casters. Siege is the more traditional choice for ranged pain. I don't really like his play though. Refuge makes such a big difference.

Edit: I will type so many words about Sloan.

SJ

Honestly, I get really frustrated with Cygnar spell lists some times. There's really no excuse for 'filler' like Arcane Bolt/Blast to even be on our casters the vast majority of the time, and it's a missed opportunity not just for fun interactions but for designing good spells that are unique to the faction and the casters. Sloan's a good example: half of her spell list isn't just filler, it's straight up spells that you won't ever, ever be willing to spend the focus on with her. Not having a good spell list forces you to concentrate her efforts on obvious things like taking out solos/officers/support/banging up jacks and stuff (and I'm not trying to downplay how good she is at that, because she's amazing at it) but she could be useful for so much more and have a much more varied and interesting playstyle if they hadn't shat three terrible spells out onto her card.

admanb

SJ wrote: »

Honestly, I get really frustrated with Cygnar spell lists some times. There's really no excuse for 'filler' like Arcane Bolt/Blast to even be on our casters the vast majority of the time, and it's a missed opportunity not just for fun interactions but for designing good spells that are unique to the faction and the casters. Sloan's a good example: half of her spell list isn't just filler, it's straight up spells that you won't ever, ever be willing to spend the focus on with her. Not having a good spell list forces you to concentrate her efforts on obvious things like taking out solos/officers/support/banging up jacks and stuff (and I'm not trying to downplay how good she is at that, because she's amazing at it) but she could be useful for so much more and have a much more varied and interesting playstyle if they hadn't shat three terrible spells out onto her card.

Read a Troll spell list and you won't feel so bad about Cygnar.

eGrissel el-oh-el.

Also kaorti I still owe you a post on eHaley; you can expect it tomorrow.

Carnarvon

You could always get something like pFeora's spell list; six really sweet spells but you'll only ever use the two boring ones.

SJ

e: YOU SAID E GRISSEL HAH

She's more of a gun toting super solo than a support caster so it isn't really that surprising. Dash and Inhospitable are both solid spells though, sucks about Arcane Blast