May 2007 Marvel/DC Solicitations

13

Posts

  • The Laughing ManThe Laughing Man Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    So the argument is that, since Doom thinks everyone is beneath him, he's therefore incapable of being racist. That's not only retarded as fuck, but the fact that many of you acknowledge that Doom has such an attitude also makes it a hell of a lot more plausible that he's racist than not.



    What the hell does this have to do with whether Doom was being racist by calling T'Challa a "noble savage"? You're saying that, since Doom's done much worse things, him being racist isn't such a big deal. That's an awesome bit of rationalization, really. It still doesn't address the issue, the contention that Hudlin is making every white character racist, despite the fact that he's characterizing Doom in the same way he was characterized by an earlier BP writer.

    Also, Bloods End, I'm right with you on the meeting between Doom and Storm and T'Challa.

    Are you aware of the fact that the term "noble savage" was used by people during the Victorian Era to describe the Roma people, whom many Romantic and Victorian writers sympathized with and admired for their independence? Doom is a member and leader of a tribe of Roma. Most Eastern/Southern European people write the Roma off as evil uneducated thieves and I know this first hand from the many people I've met from Romania and Bulgaria. Doom, whose mother killed herself saving their people from persecution, would be grossly out of character for making a racially motivated comment like that.

    The laws of Latveria also strictly prohibit the persecution of any people based upon their ethnicity, religion, nationality, and anything else you can think of. Doom doesn't hate black people, he hates everyone who doesn't bow down to his "genius" or thinks Latveria is the greatest nation on the face of the world.

    Doom is not racist, Hudlin is not a good writer and does not look into facts about characters, and this isn't even worth arguing about because of how insignificant and asinine it is.

    The Laughing Man on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I love how

    I HATE ALL OF YOU SHUT UP SHUT UP STOP TALKING

    Bloods End on
  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    WHY WOULDN'T DOOM BE RACIST

    WHY ARE YOU QUESTIONING HIS MORALITY

    Garlic Bread on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    KEITH YOU ARE ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT 2 THINGS

    CAPTAIN MARVEL AND HIS PENIS

    AND HOW YOU WANT TO BE ROBIN IN THE NEXT BATMAN MOVIE

    THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE THINGS

    Bloods End on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    CAPTAIN MARVEL'S PENIS TO PLAY ROBIN IN NEXT BATMAN MOVIE

    The Muffin Man on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I wonder if Lex Luthor should be considered a racist for his actions towards Superman which, under certain writers, seem motivated solely towards the hero because of his extraterrestrial origins.

    I suppose the difference between his feelings towards Superman and his feelings towards Batman settle the matter, as any particular distaste he may have for Batman beyond his associating with Superman would have to be for the man's actions rather than his heritage.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Are you aware of the fact that the term "noble savage" was used by people during the Victorian Era to describe the Roma people, whom many Romantic and Victorian writers sympathized with and admired for their independence? Doom is a member and leader of a tribe of Roma. Most Eastern/Southern European people write the Roma off as evil uneducated thieves and I know this first hand from the many people I've met from Romania and Bulgaria.

    I don't see how this makes your point better (if not worse). Look up the word savage and see if adding the word "noble" to any of the definitions makes it any better. I guess it's a compliment to have someone say that you're "one of the good ones"? Oh, see, T'Challa speaks so well, and good for him that he isn't like those other savages!
    Doom, whose mother killed herself saving their people from persecution, would be grossly out of character for making a racially motivated comment like that.

    Because being the target of racism precludes you from ever being racist. Where are you living that this is always the case?
    The laws of Latveria also strictly prohibit the persecution of any people based upon their ethnicity, religion, nationality, and anything else you can think of. Doom doesn't hate black people, he hates everyone who doesn't bow down to his "genius" or thinks Latveria is the greatest nation on the face of the world.

    That's all well and good, but I don't see how that rules out Doom being racist in general. It certainly doesn't rule out his being racist in that instance.
    Doom is not racist, Hudlin is not a good writer and does not look into facts about characters, and this isn't even worth arguing about because of how insignificant and asinine it is.

    This is a fact about his character. How many fucking times do I have to say that it was done before Hudlin? Okay, so you don't like that part of continuity, but it doesn't make it go away, and saying Hudlin has double standards or is mischaracterizing Doom on this issue is bullshit. Doom said something racist about T'Challa in the past. Can you get past the fact that Hudlin's writing the book to at least admit that it's possible for Doom to do so again?

    And I'm arguing about this because everytime BP is brought up, this little straw man about Hudlin race-baiting is tossed out like it's gospel truth. I bring out evidence to refute it, and everyone gets to rationalizing the situation. No matter how many times someone trots out this little assertion, I'm going to step up and say something.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Ignoring the debate if Doom is racist or not, the entire confrontation was stupid and poorly written. If we disregard bad characterization we are still left with bad writing.

    Bloods End on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I don't see how Doom appropriating the term "noble savage", a condescending pair of words commonly directed at his own people, for his own use is any different from the movement to take other harmful words and insulting names for minorities and turn them into expressions of brotherhood and sisterhood among such groups, examples being the words nigger, queer, and fag.

    If Doom was conscious of the fact that "noble savage" had been used as a backhanded compliment towards his Roma ancestors (and he must have been, learned gentleman he is), then referring to someone else as a "noble savage" would be an expression of comradery and common ground. In the mentioned case, it would likely be an acknowledgment of the fact that both Doom and his guest share the distinction of being two wholly remarkable, distinguished people who have risen above everyone else despite hailing from races commonly ridiculed or even despised by the apparently more civilized, respectable peoples of the world.

    It's like John Lennon's "Woman is the Nigger of the World". Basically, the use of a racial slur to provoke thought and imply the similarity between two maligned groups.

    robosagogo on
  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I have to admit that this is one of the reasons why I love posting here, simply because you never know which way a thread will turn. :) Now I haven't read this issue of Black Panther where this meeting with Doom takes place, so I can't really give my two cents about it. Still, I do know of a story back in the 70's (thanks to a website named Comics-101) where Doom showcased his interpersonal skills dealing with African-American superheroes. A story involving a newly-elected leader of Earth's Mightest Heroes and which produced such panels as this...

    doom.jpg

    ...and this...

    welsher.jpg

    ...and this.

    money.jpg

    Said money BTW is 200 bucks. Makes me seriouslly hope that with Doom back on Earth, Bendis will deliver a fresh meeting between him and Cage in New Avengers. Oh, and that Doom's not a racist. Just a major cheapskate.

    Owenashi on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Oh man, I can see it now. Doom descends upon New York to see the NA defeating a random horde of Ninjas or some shit. Luke sees him.
    "Avengers, ASSEMBLE!"
    "He hasn't done anything?"
    "Motherfucker owes me 200!"
    "...Luke."
    "Fuck you, Danny. I'm leader of the Avengers. I can swear all I want!"
    "Crap boobs crap!"
    "Not quite, but good effort, Pete."

    The Muffin Man on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Doom's a dick.

    He's the dictator of his own nation and one of the greatest minds on the planet. Why would he just jip Cage out of $200?


    fuckin' dick.

    LRG on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    I don't see how Doom appropriating the term "noble savage", a condescending pair of words commonly directed at his own people, for his own use is any different from the movement to take other harmful words and insulting names for minorities and turn them into expressions of brotherhood and sisterhood among such groups, examples being the words nigger, queer, and fag.

    If Doom was conscious of the fact that "noble savage" had been used as a backhanded compliment towards his Roma ancestors (and he must have been, learned gentleman he is), then referring to someone else as a "noble savage" would be an expression of comradery and common ground. In the mentioned case, it would likely be an acknowledgment of the fact that both Doom and his guest share the distinction of being two wholly remarkable, distinguished people who have risen above everyone else despite hailing from races commonly ridiculed or even despised by the apparently more civilized, respectable peoples of the world.

    It's like John Lennon's "Woman is the Nigger of the World". Basically, the use of a racial slur to provoke thought and imply the similarity between two maligned groups.

    I really can't respond to this without retreading the same things I've been saying for the last few posts. If you want to jump through hoops to rationalize it away, be my guest, if it makes you happy. Comparing this situation to the use of the N word or fag, when Doom clearly means it in a condescending way, is reaching way too hard. I know you want to be right, but that's seriously ridiculous.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    I don't see how Doom appropriating the term "noble savage", a condescending pair of words commonly directed at his own people, for his own use is any different from the movement to take other harmful words and insulting names for minorities and turn them into expressions of brotherhood and sisterhood among such groups, examples being the words nigger, queer, and fag.

    If Doom was conscious of the fact that "noble savage" had been used as a backhanded compliment towards his Roma ancestors (and he must have been, learned gentleman he is), then referring to someone else as a "noble savage" would be an expression of comradery and common ground. In the mentioned case, it would likely be an acknowledgment of the fact that both Doom and his guest share the distinction of being two wholly remarkable, distinguished people who have risen above everyone else despite hailing from races commonly ridiculed or even despised by the apparently more civilized, respectable peoples of the world.

    It's like John Lennon's "Woman is the Nigger of the World". Basically, the use of a racial slur to provoke thought and imply the similarity between two maligned groups.

    Does the term "Noble Savage" actually have anything to do with Roma people? I didn't think it did but I could be wrong.
    My understanding of it was that it referred to various other types of tribes but not necessarily Roma groups.
    Gypsies are primarily social and religious outcasts whereas the "savages" the term refers to deals with tribal peoples in lands such as Africa, Papa New Guini, Amazon, etc.
    In short, I don't think he's appropriating the term because it doesn't really apply to him in the first place.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    This is such a weird arguement... I mean, it's freaking Dr. Doom, the quintissential narcissist of the Marvel Universe. Of course he's going to be racist.

    But that doesn't mean Hudlin doesn't suck.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Does the term "Noble Savage" actually have anything to do with Roma people? I didn't think it did but I could be wrong.
    My understanding of it was that it referred to various other types of tribes but not necessarily Roma groups.
    Gypsies are primarily social and religious outcasts whereas the "savages" the term refers to deals with tribal peoples in lands such as Africa, Papa New Guini, Amazon, etc.
    In short, I don't think he's appropriating the term because it doesn't really apply to him in the first place.

    I was just building on this statement, which wasn't contradicted and I therefore took as true.
    Are you aware of the fact that the term "noble savage" was used by people during the Victorian Era to describe the Roma people, whom many Romantic and Victorian writers sympathized with and admired for their independence?

    I also think it's worth pointing out that condescension is hardly the same as using slurs and hateful words, at least when the person dispensing the condescension has an extreme superiority complex and addresses everyone with disdain for their ignorance and never directs earnest compliments towards anyone. Even if the prior example of Doom's supposed inclinations towards racism wasn't also a misstep on the part of a writer who assumes all European dictators are racists, it's not the same kind of the racism that Hudlin has Doom displaying in Black Panther.



    And like I said, simply hating all people of a certain nationality doesn't make you a racist. Race itself has to be the source of your hatred towards them. If I hate everything that's usually born with two legs then I also hate French people, but that doesn't make me a racist. Unless Doom has been seen treating members of one race differently from members of other races (and even if Doom has directed condescension at an African prince at one point, he's done the same to members of every other race he's encountered), then he's not discriminating based on race.

    robosagogo on
  • skippydumptruckskippydumptruck begin again Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    LRG wrote: »
    Doom's a dick.

    He's the dictator of his own nation and one of the greatest minds on the planet. Why would he just jip Cage out of $200?


    fuckin' dick.

    This is an awesome comment considering where this thread's gone.

    Did you know that gyp is short for Gypsy, and the connotation comes from the sterotype of thieving Gypsies? And Doom is a Rom?

    skippydumptruck on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    This is such a weird arguement... I mean, it's freaking Dr. Doom, the quintissential narcissist of the Marvel Universe. Of course he's going to be racist.

    But that doesn't mean Hudlin doesn't suck.


    This is pretty much what I thinking.
    This is an awesome comment considering where this thread's gone.

    Did you know that gyp is short for Gypsy, and the connotation comes from the sterotype of thieving Gypsies? And Doom is a Rom?

    Didn't even think about that when I wrote the comment.

    fuckin' gyps

    LRG on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Having just read the comic, I find less issue with the fact that Doom is apparently a racist and more with the fact that his racism seems more so born of ignorance than anything else.

    img011.jpg

    I find it very hard to believe that someone like Doom, who has a very sophisticated understanding of human physiology on top of his other numerous expertises, would be under the impression that there were something mentally inferior about African men and women due to some kind of flaw in their biology when no evidence to support such a claim exist in either our universe or the Marvel Universe. Furthermore, I don't see why he'd need to be lectured about the commonly known histories behind the early development of the African and European peoples, namely the bit about how early European men and women were still crouching in caves while some Africans were engaging in early astronomy (and the implications that arise from that). Again, Doom is more educated and would therefore have had any racist assumptions (be they about the biology or history of African people) dispelled very early on through readily available and easily verifiable literature to the contrary.

    Hudlin also seems to suggest that there is a kind of connection between Doom and the European leaders who preceded him such that he would consider himself a European in the same way T'Challa sees himself as a Wakandan and an African, with pride about his ancestry and reverence for his predecessors. But Doom overthrew the former leaders of his own country-men and, prior to then, lived under their boots, and so Panther would have no reason to undercut Doom's notions of superiority by suggesting the weakness of Europeans as a whole compared to Wakandans since Doom likely hates the European leaders he did encounter and thusly has no reason to believe that there is anything inherently superior about being European.

    And "Tonto"? Would Doom really use a pop-culture reference from a television show he probably isn't aware of to insult a hero who, most likely, wouldn't have gotten the reference himself (especially if maintaining cultural integrity means, as one would generally think, rejecting Westernization and the encroachment of Western media and especially American media)?

    robosagogo on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Hey, look! Storms in that picture...

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Facts and truth have no effect on someone that's an unyielding racist. The fact that he's a genius hardly precludes that Doom is racist. I don't believe that Doom is above racism.

    In that page, I see less racism and more of Doom pushing T'Challa's buttons. It clearly worked, seeing the almost knee-jerk defensiveness from T'Challa.

    The best I can say about the "Tonto" remark is that, while neither T'Challa nor Doom are very knowledgeable of each others' culture, knowledge of American culture is probably one of the few things they share. While a more obscure reference could probably be found, I think it's one that they both understood. Even better, the readers could understand it without having to google some obscure name. However, it's a valid point. I just can't think of a better example that could've been used instead of "Tonto".

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Facts and truth have no effect on someone that's an unyielding racist. The fact that he's a genius hardly precludes that Doom is racist. I don't believe that Doom is above racism.

    I do think Doom is "above" racism. He thinks he's better than everyone, no matter what color they are

    reggie hudlin is a racist, his hatred toward "white" people is pathetic

    Algertman on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Facts and truth have no effect on someone that's an unyielding racist. The fact that he's a genius hardly precludes that Doom is racist. I don't believe that Doom is above racism.

    In that page, I see less racism and more of Doom pushing T'Challa's buttons. It clearly worked, seeing the almost knee-jerk defensiveness from T'Challa.

    The best I can say about the "Tonto" remark is that, while neither T'Challa nor Doom are very knowledgeable of each others' culture, knowledge of American culture is probably one of the few things they share. While a more obscure reference could probably be found, I think it's one that they both understood. Even better, the readers could understand it without having to google some obscure name. However, it's a valid point. I just can't think of a better example that could've been used instead of "Tonto".
    Genius doesn't preclude racism, granted, but genius in the area of human biology precludes racism based upon mistaken beliefs about inherent biological flaws that simply do not exist and which Doom would know do not exist. If he can perfect a device that negates the genetic traits of mutants, then surely he knows enough about the human body to realize that African and European males are equals, at least so far as their bodies are concerned.

    If Doom were to have a prejudice against Africans, it would have to be founded upon beliefs that he doesn't know to be false and wouldn't be disproven by something so simple as cursory understandings of human history and biology. It'd have to be a distaste for African culture or African civilizations beyond mistaken beliefs of them being savages, like perhaps the shape of modern Africa and its handling of its current problems like health, poverty, and human rights, and a belief that these problems have more to do with the African people themselves and their (apparently negative) proclivities rather than things such as mishandling of aid to them and the rest of the world's prior mistreatment to them.

    In regards to the Tonto comment, I think that it was chosen simply because it was so easy for the writer. For better commentary on token Africans in predominantly white superhero teams, see Nighthawk's statements on Blur in the Marvel Max version of Supreme Power. Personally, I consider Nighthawk to be what Hudlin wishes he could turn Black Panther into, namely a profoundly capable and strong-willed Black hero whose race and heritage are treated as an asset to his mission rather than a source of derision for the character or, perhaps worse, something to be ignored altogether simply so the character can better fit into a white man's world.

    robosagogo on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I think wwt is missing the point.
    Yes, Doom is racist in that scene.

    Which is why it pisses me off, personally. Especially the Tonto remark.

    I'm half-expecting Doom to see the Fantastic Four bust into the embassy, and Doom just alleviate there fears with "Don't have a cow, man."

    The Muffin Man on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    Genius doesn't preclude racism, granted, but genius in the area of human biology precludes racism based upon mistaken beliefs about inherent biological flaws that simply do not exist and which Doom would know do not exist. If he can perfect a device that negates the genetic traits of mutants, then surely he knows enough about the human body to realize that African and European males are equals, at least so far as their bodies are concerned.

    If Doom were to have a prejudice against Africans, it would have to be founded upon beliefs that he doesn't know to be false and wouldn't be disproven by something so simple as cursory understandings of human history and biology. It'd have to be a distaste for African culture or African civilizations beyond mistaken beliefs of them being savages, like perhaps the shape of modern Africa and its handling of its current problems like health, poverty, and human rights, and a belief that these problems have more to do with the African people themselves and their (apparently negative) proclivities rather than things such as mishandling of aid to them and the rest of the world's prior mistreatment to them.[/quote]

    I think you missed the part where I said that Doom was probably saying all of that to push T'Challa's buttons. Whether or not he really believes it is up in the air. I can only really judge by what Doom says or does.
    In regards to the Tonto comment, I think that it was chosen simply because it was so easy for the writer. For better commentary on token Africans in predominantly white superhero teams, see Nighthawk's statements on Blur in the Marvel Max version of Supreme Power. Personally, I consider Nighthawk to be what Hudlin wishes he could turn Black Panther into, namely a profoundly capable and strong-willed Black hero whose race and heritage are treated as an asset to his mission rather than a source of derision for the character or, perhaps worse, something to be ignored altogether simply so the character can better fit into a white man's world.

    Again, I agreed with you mostly that the "Tonto" remark was probably easier for Hudlin (and the reader). If he'd used the same reference as Nighthawk did, would it have made you feel any better? And I don't believe that T'Challa nor Doom are ignorant of American culture, both having spent a reasonable amount of time in the country.

    Muffin Man, If I'm missing the point, please tell me why it's impossible to believe that Doom could be racist? He's too smart for it? It's out of character?

    Algertman, I can barely dignify your post with a response. If that's what you get from reading the book, there's no point in arguing with you. You only serve to strengthen my opinion that most white people don't want or welcome any frank and open discussion of race matters, nor are they comfortable with any powerful and assertively black/African people or characters. Where you read racism into the book, I read it and think that it's being pretty damn honest on the race issues, and I'm not the only black person that feels that way. Shouldn't that disconnect raise some kind of flag with you guys? If we both see the same thing and draw two different conclusions, shouldn't we be looking closer at the underlying issues to find out why we think what we think? But that'd actually take some real thought. It's much easier to write Hudlin off as a racist because it makes it so much easier to cling to your beliefs.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    LOL Black Panther is Black and he's the BLACK panther. Get it?! RACISM.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I guess for some people seeing Doom make racist statements would be akin to Stephen Hawking suddenly spouting off the n-word during a speech... it just seems so... low brow.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »

    I think you missed the part where I said that Doom was probably saying all of that to push T'Challa's buttons. Whether or not he really believes it is up in the air. I can only really judge by what Doom says or does.

    That's not exactly in character for Doom either, nor is ending a fight just to joke about how Black Panther marrying a strong woman is like willingly entering hell (Doom has never said the same to Reed Richards, who is married to one of the strongest women in the Marvel Universe as well).

    And Doom certainly isn't a sexist, having never displayed any overt signs of sexism in any of his prior appearances and trusting only two people in his entire life, both of whom were women. Nonetheless, there's the remark on how Panther should put Storm in her place. And then Panther doesn't even defend Storm, but rather states that Doom doesn't have the right to speak that way. Worse yet, Panther goes on to order Storm around in the fight, effectively telling her that it's not her place to fight Doom. Ugh.

    Even if it wasn't Hudlin's intention to portray Doom as a racist, the villain still comes off as a blatant sexist and the entire appearance reads as a horrible mischaracterization. That's really no better.
    Again, I agreed with you mostly that the "Tonto" remark was probably easier for Hudlin (and the reader). If he'd used the same reference as Nighthawk did, would it have made you feel any better? And I don't believe that T'Challa nor Doom are ignorant of American culture, both having spent a reasonable amount of time in the country.

    They probably didn't spend their time in America watching television from the 1950's. Lone Ranger is hardly an integral or even especially well known (these days) aspect of American culture.

    Nighthawk's reference was better because it was a direct reference to the practices of American slave-owners and was therefore a bit more relevant and a far more compelling point than a silly jibe about plucky minority sidekicks.

    robosagogo on
  • The Laughing ManThe Laughing Man Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I find it amusing that racism is coming up in relation to a comic where the main character is named after a marxist black power group.

    The fact that a strong black character cannot exist in Marvel comics unless he is from a mystical unrealistic nation that could never exist, regardless of its location or ethnic population, is very disheartening. In all honesty it makes it seem as though Marvel is saying that a strong black character who is a pillar of his community or a leader of large group is a work of pure fantasy relegated to mystical utopias with robot jungles. The unrealistic setting in which a strong black character is shown in is really the true racism because it cheapens the character and the impact it carries.

    The Laughing Man on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • JudasJudas Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I agree with the statement that that scene was more about Doom having fun pushing BP's buttons then anything else. One of the problems with wearing an iron mask is that no one can see you smirking when you're being a sarcastic ass.

    I also think writing Doom as a racist would be profound bullshit; the man once stripped God ( ...ok, the Beyonder, but still... ) of his powers and he believed he had every right to do so. He's a megalomaniacal genius who really does believe the rest of the world is beneath him, so I find it hard to believe he would suddenly adopt a racist attitude; for someone like Doom I would think that racism would seem...banal? Pedestrian? Pathetically small minded?

    Judas on
    Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver.
    Situation excellent. I am attacking.

    - General Ferdinand Foch
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I find it amusing that racism is coming up in relation to a comic where the main character is named after a marxist black power group.
    .

    Actually, he had the name first.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I find it amusing that racism is coming up in relation to a comic where the main character is named after a marxist black power group.

    The fact that a strong black character cannot exist in Marvel comics unless he is from a mystical unrealistic nation that could never exist, regardless of its location or ethnic population, is very disheartening. In all honesty it makes it seem as though Marvel is saying that a strong black character who is a pillar of his community or a leader of large group is a work of pure fantasy relegated to mystical utopias with robot jungles. The unrealistic setting in which a strong black character is shown in is really the true racism because it cheapens the character and the impact it carries.

    Man, are you off.

    First, BP was created before the formation of the Black Panther Party.

    Second, T'Challa is hardly the only strong black character from Marvel comics.

    Thrid, The "mystical unrealistic nation" thing ain't exactly all that rare in MARVEL COMICS BOOKS. Marvel is built upon the unrealistic. Fantasy and Sci-Fi is kinda what Marvel comics is about.

    LRG on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I find it amusing that racism is coming up in relation to a comic where the main character is named after a marxist black power group.

    The fact that a strong black character cannot exist in Marvel comics unless he is from a mystical unrealistic nation that could never exist, regardless of its location or ethnic population, is very disheartening. In all honesty it makes it seem as though Marvel is saying that a strong black character who is a pillar of his community or a leader of large group is a work of pure fantasy relegated to mystical utopias with robot jungles. The unrealistic setting in which a strong black character is shown in is really the true racism because it cheapens the character and the impact it carries.

    Black Panther predates the Black Panther party, actually.

    I was also under the impression that Wakanda's status as a technological marvel of a nation dwarfing everything from America, to Latveria, to the Inhuman nation was a more recent invention, with certain recent aspects being inventions of Hudlin himself.

    Meanwhile, there are a few examples of black Marvel heroes who manage to stand as strong characters without displaying so many fantastic qualities that they become too detached from our own lives to have any impact upon us.

    See the afore-mentioned Nighthawk, and beyond that characters such as Patriot from Young Avengers, the modern Luke Cage, Blur from Supreme Power, Monica Rambeau (unless you think it doesn't count if it's a comedy book), Jim Rhodes in his scattered appearances, and maybe a bunch of characters I'm not particularly familiar with like Falcon.

    robosagogo on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »

    Algertman, I can barely dignify your post with a response. If that's what you get from reading the book, there's no point in arguing with you. You only serve to strengthen my opinion that most white people don't want or welcome any frank and open discussion of race matters, nor are they comfortable with any powerful and assertively black/African people or characters.


    Firestorm? Hello?!

    WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE READING FIRESTORM

    Also Mr. Terrific.


    Edit: Also this ignores the heaps of praise we lay on Christopher Priests BP run.

    Bloods End on
  • SlagmireSlagmire Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »
    Black Panther predates the Black Panther party, actually.

    I was also under the impression that Wakanda's status as a technological marvel of a nation dwarfing everything from America, to Latveria, to the Inhuman nation was a more recent invention, with certain recent aspects being inventions of Hudlin himself.

    Meanwhile, there are a few examples of black Marvel heroes who manage to stand as strong characters without displaying so many fantastic qualities that they become too detached from our own lives to have any impact upon us.

    See the afore-mentioned Nighthawk, and beyond that characters such as Patriot from Young Avengers, the modern Luke Cage, Blur from Supreme Power, Monica Rambeau (unless you think it doesn't count if it's a comedy book), Jim Rhodes in his scattered appearances, and maybe a bunch of characters I'm not particularly familiar with like Falcon.

    Night Thrasher could of used a revitalization...
    ...maybe they'll bring him back from the dead, but given the circumstances on his death (beginning the Civil War), I doubt it'll happen.

    Slagmire on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    robosagogo wrote: »

    I was also under the impression that Wakanda's status as a technological marvel of a nation dwarfing everything from America, to Latveria, to the Inhuman nation was a more recent invention, with certain recent aspects being inventions of Hudlin himself.


    Wakanda has been leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the planet since Stan and Jack created the nation in the 60s.

    LRG on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Firestorm? Hello?!

    WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE READING FIRESTORM

    Also Mr. Terrific.


    Edit: Also this ignores the heaps of praise we lay on Christopher Priests BP run.

    I'm not familiar with that book, but isn't it ending soon?

    I can't comment on Priests run or the prevailing opinions of it since I haven't read it. I have, though, heard some opinions that he shied away from making T'Challa too outspokenly black. This is what I meant by "assertive black figure", not whether the person is wont to take charge.

    I honestly wish there were more black characters that weren't either caricatures or tokens whose characterizations barely acknowledge that they're black. BP has been like a godsend to me, and I'm looking at older black characters in a new light now.

    wwtMask on
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  • The Laughing ManThe Laughing Man Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I was not aware of the whole name thing but it still seems kind of ironic.

    Marvel does have some strong black characters but none of them are pushed nearly as much as Black Panther has been in recent years which is a shame because I like Luke Cage and Monica Rambeau. The part about Black Panther that I find racist is the fact that it seems to put across the message that it is not the strong black man who made the nation but the unbelievable circumstances that made him what he is. Sure, Marvel is based on weird unbelievable nations but they were not made by distinctly ethnic superheros and they certainly aren't the center of an ongoing series that Marvel tries to push more and more each week. Doom made Latveria, Magneto made Genosha, and it wasn't the other way around like it is for Black Panther.

    I'm sorry if you guys don't agree with my view but that's how I see it. I guess I just prefer the treatment black superheroes get in DC comics over that in Marvel.

    EDIT: wwtmask, read JSA.

    The Laughing Man on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I

    Algertman, I can barely dignify your post with a response. If that's what you get from reading the book, there's no point in arguing with you. You only serve to strengthen my opinion that most white people don't want or welcome any frank and open discussion of race matters, nor are they comfortable with any powerful and assertively black/African people or characters.

    really? could have sworn Mr. Terrific, The Manhattan Gaurdian, Firestorm, Falcon, and the Steel Family are some of favorite charecters AND black

    But hey, you wanna keep defending a racist go ahead

    Algertman on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Hey guys, you know what I hate about Hudlin?

    The fact that he writes Storm so far out of character she might as well be someone else.

    This race stuff is just dumb.

    Sars_Boy on
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