May 2007 Marvel/DC Solicitations

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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Hey guys, you know what I hate about Hudlin?

    The fact that he writes Storm so far out of character she might as well be someone else.

    This race stuff is just dumb.

    indeed...

    But, to be fair, she's just a girl... :roll:

    Sentry on
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    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with that book, but isn't it ending soon?

    I can't comment on Priests run or the prevailing opinions of it since I haven't read it. I have, though, heard some opinions that he shied away from making T'Challa too outspokenly black. This is what I meant by "assertive black figure", not whether the person is wont to take charge.

    I honestly wish there were more black characters that weren't either caricatures or tokens whose characterizations barely acknowledge that they're black. BP has been like a godsend to me, and I'm looking at older black characters in a new light now.

    Actually, that's a big part of why I don't like it. Every issue it's like he has to slap you in the face with a "I'm black, bitch!", and it's like, dude, I could tell by looking at you. Northstar isn't defined by being gay, Shadowcat isn't defined by being Jewish, and you could go quite some time without either even being mentioned, but Black Panther does seem to get defined by being black these days (which ties in with my complaint that the only reason he and Storm got married is because they're both black characters).

    Scooter on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I was not aware of the whole name thing but it still seems kind of ironic.

    Marvel does have some strong black characters but none of them are pushed nearly as much as Black Panther has been in recent years which is a shame because I like Luke Cage and Monica Rambeau. The part about Black Panther that I find racist is the fact that it seems to put across the message that it is not the strong black man who made the nation but the unbelievable circumstances that made him what he is. Sure, Marvel is based on weird unbelievable nations but they were not made by distinctly ethnic superheros and they certainly aren't the center of an ongoing series that Marvel tries to push more and more each week. Doom made Latveria, Magneto made Genosha, and it wasn't the other way around like it is for Black Panther.

    I'm sorry if you guys don't agree with my view but that's how I see it. I guess I just prefer the treatment black superheroes get in DC comics over that in Marvel.

    EDIT: wwtmask, read JSA.

    Did Doom "make" Latveria? I thought he was born/raised there and later came back to take the bitch over.

    I'm still don't understand what your problem with BP is.

    Sure, there would be no BP without Vibranium falling in Wakanda, But your ignoring that T'Chaka used the vibranium to get money to send his people to the best schools in the world. They could have ignored the mound, but instead used it to become one of the richest and techno advanced nations in the world.

    You seem to have a problem with Marvel getting behind Black Panther as a character, finally.

    I have a problem that they are just now getting around to realizing that they have one of the coolest black characters in comics and they gave the book to a hack.

    LRG on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    Actually, that's a big part of why I don't like it. Every issue it's like he has to slap you in the face with a "I'm black, bitch!", and it's like, dude, I could tell by looking at you. Northstar isn't defined by being gay, Shadowcat isn't defined by being Jewish, and you could go quite some time without either even being mentioned, but Black Panther does seem to get defined by being black these days (which ties in with my complaint that the only reason he and Storm got married is because they're both black characters).

    It would be a disservice to the character to ignore that he is black and rich and royalty and pretty much the opposite of what alot of people expect a black man to be, even other black people.

    A good writer can incorporate this well, like say, that Chris Priest fellow.

    But Hudlin has got no tact or charm with handling race in Black Panther.

    LRG on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    really? could have sworn Mr. Terrific, The Manhattan Gaurdian, Firestorm, Falcon, and the Steel Family are some of favorite charecters AND black

    But hey, you wanna keep defending a racist go ahead

    Explain to me how Hudlin is racist. I'm dying to hear your justification for that label.

    It's awesome that there are other black characters in comics. But it'll be even more awesome when they're all more than just tokens or racially neutral or caricatures. I'm happy with the "I'm black, bitch" stuff. It's far better to me than the "I may as well be white, for all the attention that's paid to my race and heritage". You guys are so used to the latter that the former must seem like you're being slapped with it.

    And still no comment about the disconnect between those who like the way race is handled in the book and those who don't. Isn't anyone slightly curious why I'd think that it's been brutally honest, while you guys think it's race-baiting?

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Luke Cage is the current leader of the Avengers.
    Mister Terrific if the third smartest man in the DC Universe, and in 10 short years as risen to the top of one of the premier groups.

    These are just two that I didn't feel like Wiki'ing to shut you up.

    The Muffin Man on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Explain to me how Hudlin is racist. I'm dying to hear your justification for that label.

    It's awesome that there are other black characters in comics. But it'll be even more awesome when they're all more than just tokens or racially neutral or caricatures. I'm happy with the "I'm black, bitch" stuff. It's far better to me than the "I may as well be white, for all the attention that's paid to my race and heritage". You guys are so used to the latter that the former must seem like you're being slapped with it.

    And still no comment about the disconnect between those who like the way race is handled in the book and those who don't. Isn't anyone slightly curious why I'd think that it's been brutally honest, while you guys think it's race-baiting?

    It's cause you're black and we're white, isn't it

    Scooter on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Explain to me how Hudlin is racist. I'm dying to hear your justification for that label.

    It's awesome that there are other black characters in comics. But it'll be even more awesome when they're all more than just tokens or racially neutral or caricatures. I'm happy with the "I'm black, bitch" stuff. It's far better to me than the "I may as well be white, for all the attention that's paid to my race and heritage". You guys are so used to the latter that the former must seem like you're being slapped with it.

    And still no comment about the disconnect between those who like the way race is handled in the book and those who don't. Isn't anyone slightly curious why I'd think that it's been brutally honest, while you guys think it's race-baiting?

    Read the first six issues of the run, it's pretty clear the man HATES white people.

    Algertman on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I can't wait for Silver Surfer and Black Panther meeting up.
    "It is a shame you are the most inferior of your inferior species."
    "Excuse me, good sir?"
    "You are a filthy brown Earth dweller who is stupid and smelly."
    "Please do not insult my people."
    "Pfft. Your people smell too."
    "I will not stand for such disrespect! My honor shall be preserved!"
    "OH GOD PLEASE I FORFEIT MISTER PANTHER DON'T HIT ME!"

    The Muffin Man on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    And Patriot is a reference to the forgotten accomplishments of black soldiers during various wars as a relation of the forgotten precursor to Captain America while Nighthawk beats the shit out of the Superman analogue despite having no powers and is easily the most resourceful and dangerous character in his universe (in addition to being brutally honest, which you seem to love).

    I've only made it to issue six of Panther volume 4, but so far there hasn't been a single positive portrayal of a non-African character despite the fact that Hudlin took special care to note that a wide variety of nationalities (all white) were represented. Each of those were, of course, member of an invading force that tries to lay siege to Wakanda.

    Meanwhile, one of Panther's relatives is brought to his doom by someone disguised as a white woman.

    robosagogo on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I just wanna see Captain America or Spider-man show up in BP.

    Just as a dare to Hudlin to make 2 of the most beloved characters in comics into racists.

    The Muffin Man on
  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Don't forget ol Crispus Allen, who now wields the power of the Spectre.



    Sooo...black people won?

    I mean c'mon, the Spectre!

    Bad Karma on
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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I just wanna see Captain America or Spider-man show up in BP.

    Just as a dare to Hudlin to make 2 of the most beloved characters in comics into racists.

    Like how Spider-man was in Blade for about 5 seconds and was a vampire. In Blade World, everyone's a vampire!

    Scooter on
  • The Laughing ManThe Laughing Man Registered User
    edited February 2007
    To name a few African American or African characters from the DCU who are not only distinctly "black" but successful and strong role models:

    Mr. Terrific - 3rd smartest man in the DCU, self made millionaire, Gold Winning Olympic Athelete, Chairman of the JSA, and White King of Checkmate.

    Jon Stewart - One of the great Green Lanterns and distinctly opposed to authority figures due to his own background, especially so in his early adventures.

    Cyborg - One of the senior Titans and a mentor to new members.

    John Henry Irons - Brilliant inventor and engineer, and pillar of the Metropolis community.

    Natasha Irons - Brilliant young independent African American woman and teenage superhero.

    Black Lightning - Intercity school teacher who became a superhero to save his neighborhood from crime and corruption, pillar of his community, Secretary of Education under President Luthor, and member of the JLA.

    Thunder - Strong indepent African American woman, member of the Outsiders, and possibly a lesbian.

    Vixen - African woman, world famous model, and currently on the roster of the JLA.

    Jakeem Thunder - Major member of the JSA and controls a genie making him very powerful.

    Amanda Waller - One of the most powerful "unpowered" women in the DCU, wasSeecretary of Metahuman Affairs under President Luthor, and is White Queen of Checkmate.

    Firestorm - Hands down, one of the most powerful characters in the DCU.

    EDIT:

    I almost forgot,

    Crispus Allen - Brilliant police detective and currently the Spectre, the Angel of Vengeance and one of the most powerful beings in the DCU if not the most powerful.

    The Laughing Man on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I think it's important to state that while there aren't necessarily enough minority heroes out there, Hudlin's Black Panther is hardly the sole example and certainly not the best example. There are enough minority heroes out there that we can demand they be good in addition to simply existing, and this portrayal of one of the original minority heroes isn't very good.

    I hope Hudlin is replaced and that, when that does happen, his replacement continues to address issues of race and the position of African nations (fictional and otherwise) amongst others. Black Panther is a great character, and he should become an even more prominent member of the Marvel Universe in the future and a tool through which talented writers can write good stories and address important issues.

    robosagogo on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I can't wait for Silver Surfer and Black Panther meeting up.
    "It is a shame you are the most inferior of your inferior species."
    "Excuse me, good sir?"
    "You are a filthy brown Earth dweller who is stupid and smelly."
    "Please do not insult my people."
    "Pfft. Your people smell too."
    "I will not stand for such disrespect! My honor shall be preserved!"
    "OH GOD PLEASE I FORFEIT MISTER PANTHER DON'T HIT ME!"

    I'm for superior than you Black Panther

    Why? Cause I'm BLACK

    No. Cause I'm fuckin' CHROME beyotch!

    Algertman on
  • LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Hudlin wrote:
    Nope, all this article does is parrot complaints about Black Panther and Storm getting married “just because they are black”, which dismisses everything else they are (and all the things they have in common) in lieu of their race, and presumes that a black couple is automatically ghettoization, which is a projection of your own contempt for black love.

    This attack is then followed by whining about the supposed diminishment of Storm as Panther’s wife, which has no basis in the reality of the book. Perhaps you think marriage inherently diminishes women, or that marriage to T’Challa inherently diminishes Ororo. I don’t really know what you think because you just repeat complaints without giving examples. Of course, it’s hard to give examples when you don’t read the book, which you admitted in your blog.

    Not that I agree, but it's good to hear how the guy defends his writing.

    It was in response to this article, which has a small subsection reviewing the whole Black Panther debacle.

    Lux on
  • PbPb Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Lux wrote: »
    Not that I agree, but it's good to hear how the guy defends his writing.

    "Any flaws you see in my writing are just projections of your own inadequacies."

    Pb on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Pb wrote: »
    "Any flaws you see in my writing are just projections of your own inadequacies."

    mother of God what an ass

    Algertman on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Pb wrote: »
    "Any flaws you see in my writing are just projections of your own inadequacies."
    what the shit

    Sars_Boy on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    What about the flaws we see in House Party? What are those a reflection of...

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • Psychotic OnePsychotic One The Lord of No Pants Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Your sexual disfunction?

    Psychotic One on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    What about the flaws we see in House Party? What are those a reflection of...

    Your inability to "get down with your bad self."

    The Muffin Man on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    That argument is so bad it makes House Party look like House Party 2!

    Bloods End on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    This is nice. I ask for justifications for calling Hudlin a racist, and what do I get? An assload of straw men. Bellyaching about his response to critics. Good job, guys, way to stay on topic there. Muffin and Algertman specifically, the strawman crap is annoying. Please stop it.

    RE: DCU black characters; I plead ignorance. I honestly have read very little in the DC universe, so I can't comment until I do. I meant to mention this earlier.

    FYI, Cap and Iron Man have been in BP within the last five or so issues. Of course, if you'd read the book, you'd fucking know that. It's almost too much to ask that you read the book before you comment, I guess. And, no, they weren't racist, though, from the way you guys carry on, I wouldn't be surprised if you thought Hudlin had made them Grand Wizards of the KKK.

    Once again, Algertman, explain why the first six issues of BP were about hating white people. Cite something, anything, for fuck's sake. Just saying "oh, well if you read those issues, it's obvious" doesn't cut it. I read those issues and I don't think it's obvious. Hell, if you manage to do this without resorting to strawmen, I'll be astounded.

    Finally, I think Patriot and Luke Cage are awesome and that it's great that they're getting to shine right now. I hope more writers work as well with the black characters they have on their books.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    The Strawman only wanted a brain.

    Bloods End on
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    What about the flaws we see in House Party? What are those a reflection of...

    Nothing.

    The House Party series has no flaws.

    LRG on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »

    Once again, Algertman, explain why the first six issues of BP were about hating white people. Cite something, anything, for fuck's sake. Just saying "oh, well if you read those issues, it's obvious" doesn't cut it. I read those issues and I don't think it's obvious. Hell, if you manage to do this without resorting to strawmen, I'll be astounded.


    Once again, read the first 6 issues. If you can't tell that your good ol' pal Reggie is anti-white then you have issues that have their roots far deeper than people criticizing a comic book

    Algertman on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Namely the fact that the first six issues depict every represented nationality in a negative light through the characters who represent them, from the multi-ethnic invading force to the corrupt governments who apparently are so dangerous that the cure for cancer should be kept from them despite the good such a thing would do for their populace.

    robosagogo on
  • hughtronhughtron __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    The first arc of Black Panther seems less "LOL I HATE WHITE PEOPLE", and more, "White people crapped on Africa for like five hundred years, and I'm going to use comic books to talk about it."

    I haven't really read much else of BP, and I 'byrne-stole' the first Black Panther trade while my wife played Magic Cards, so it was a quick read, but that's what I got out of the whole thing.

    hughtron on
    minisy3.gif
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    hughtron wrote: »
    The first arc of Black Panther seems less "LOL I HATE WHITE PEOPLE", and more, "White people crapped on Africa for like five hundred years, and I'm going to use comic books to talk about it."

    I haven't really read much else of BP, and I 'byrne-stole' the first Black Panther trade while my wife played Magic Cards, so it was a quick read, but that's what I got out of the whole thing.

    I would have liked an examination of the damage done to Africa by other countries during its development up until modern times, especially if the development of Wakanda was featured alongside and used to create a contrast. Any real discussion of the situation in Africa doesn't arise until the House of M issue, though.

    Prior to that the focus is exclusively upon Wakanda which, while interesting, is hardly an adequate stand-in for any real African nation.

    robosagogo on
  • Synthetic OrangeSynthetic Orange Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Next issue, Mugabe and T'Challa have a little punch-up.

    Synthetic Orange on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited February 2007
    There are some references to the horrors in Africa, but things like AIDs and sex slavery are paid lip service when the main purpose is always, solely making Black Panther look awesome.

    And women are always being hit and told to know their place. The behavior isn't endorsed, but the response is always, "It's not okay to hit women," as opposed to the idea that women are equals to me.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    Once again, read the first 6 issues. If you can't tell that your good ol' pal Reggie is anti-white then you have issues that have their roots far deeper than people criticizing a comic book

    I have read them several times. I don't see what you're talking about. But obviously, since I'm not agreeing with you, something's wrong with me. Just come out and call me a racist already. If the gist of your argument is "read the issues, it's obvious", and that disagreeing with you means I've got issues, then just please shut up. You have nothing meaningful to add to the discussion, but since it's you, I'm not surprised at all.

    Hughtron: I more or less agree with your assessment of the first arc.

    Robosagogo, I think you bring up some good points. One of the things I wondered was why Wakanda sat back and watched the rest of the continent get raped. While I do believe there are a host of Africa specific issues that can be addressed, I don't think I can really fault Hudlin for not necessarily making it his job to lecture about that stuff. I'd definitely like to see AIDS and other issues worked into the story, but with all the superhero antics that go on, I doubt it'll happen any time soon. I don't, however, think that these things are being pushed aside just to make BP look awesomer than everyone. Unfortunately, there's a sort of built in mechanism to explain away why these issues are not more prominent in the stories, the constant reminder of how insolationist and xenophobic the Wakandans are.

    If anything, I hope Hudlin is reading Hyperion vs. Nighthawk and that it inspires him to put a bit more about African issues into the stories. If anything, BP seems too America focused, but there are stirrings among his council that the Wakandans aren't putting up with it much longer.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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