Hell if they lose this game of chicken they're not going to have anything left to govern.
For a certain portion of the players here, that's the desired outcome. They want a return to the Articles of Confederation - a neutered federal government that only exists to run the military and all other powers returned to the states. Some are even batting around the idea of reverting back to state militias.
That's why this is asinine. Does the Tea Party understand that they've been bought and paid for by corporate money? The same companies that need the US to remain a populous first-world superpower in order to remain profitable? If the US defaults and begins a descent into irrelevence then the people who've been pulling the Tea Party strings are going to suffer just as much as anyone else. They're biting the hand that feeds them.
I guess that's the problem with hiring rabid attack dogs to do your work; they'll get it done, but they won't know when to stop.
On the plus side this might result in the dawning of the Cyberpunk age wherein corporate nation-states begin to rule the world and national governments begin to be relegated to obscurity. I'd kind of like to see that (but I'd have to live in it).
Tea Partiers are not real republicans. They are a separate faction.
Tea Partiers are nothing but real Republicans. They are the base courted by Nixon's Southern Strategy. They are the secret weapon that Lee Atwater used to such great effect. They were George W.'s biggest fans.
The Tea Party is nothing more than a clever rebranding of the GOP's rank and file, the Rush Limbaugh listening, black people hating mass that has kept the GOP in office since the 1960s.
They're the Republican Frankenstein.
Tea Partiers think they're republicans, because they're not democrats.
But Republicanism is based on conservative, rational reflection.
Not "fuck everybody blow this bitch up" style politics.
Well, that's what it was based on.
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I have a feeling the radicals on both ends of the spectrum are being a bunch of stubborn assholes (more so the tea party), the moderates need to get together and draft something up pretty quickly.
Oh yes, the radicals at both ends of the spectrum.
A lot of conservatives are struggling between "what the SHIT, tea party?" and "Liberal = Bad" thinking they've pretty much grown up on.
My main issue with the Tea Party not being just a rebranding of the crazy that's been driving the GOP is that they basically didn't form until the end of Bush's term in office when he was thrown under the bus as a RINO. Because he raised the deficit a lot and bailed out companies, and thus was obviously not a conservative. Then suddenly you had this mess of people wanting to take back conservative government, by going harder right.
Mostly because they've been told time and again that if a liberal agrees with them on something, that something is NOT FAR ENOUGH RIGHT. So every time the liberals get more moderate, the line to be a conservative slides farther to keep away from the liberal cooties.
I don't think this crisis is being used as some crazy way to restart the articles of confederation, I just think it's the end result of training people that if the other side EVER is okay with something, that something must not pass. Regardless of what it is. That's why they turned down Obama's fucking sweetheart conservative gift basket.
I have a feeling the radicals on both ends of the spectrum are being a bunch of stubborn assholes (more so the tea party), the moderates need to get together and draft something up pretty quickly.
Oh yes, the radicals at both ends of the spectrum.
I think he was talking about those in office, not people's opinions of what they want in office.
I have a feeling the radicals on both ends of the spectrum are being a bunch of stubborn assholes (more so the tea party), the moderates need to get together and draft something up pretty quickly.
Oh yes, the radicals at both ends of the spectrum.
I think he was talking about those in office, not people's opinions of what they want in office.
What liberal radicals are subbornly refusing a deal? You might be able to pick out some random dude, but you're not going to find anyone making a pledge to never ever make any form of deal.
If there's one dude way out on one side, and sixty way out on the other side, there's no equivalence. You have a nutcase as an example, against a caucus of crazy. That's what drives people nuts with this line of reasoning: the dems have pretty much dropped every demand they had, and gone hard right to try and reach a compromise. And in response, the reps have gone "shit, no, that's not what we wanted, we want.. uh.. quick guys, find something else we think they'll never agree to!"
I have a feeling the radicals on both ends of the spectrum are being a bunch of stubborn assholes (more so the tea party), the moderates need to get together and draft something up pretty quickly.
Oh yes, the radicals at both ends of the spectrum.
I think he was talking about those in office, not people's opinions of what they want in office.
Those Republican jackasses in Congress don't live in a bubble, but in a self-reinforcing jackass ecosystem. A Republican elite and media that pushes a message of non-compromise and punishment for collaboration, and an electorate that reinforces it.
I'd think it might be safe to extrapolate from that graph that Democratic voters are more likely to elect someone who will compromise, as that is what appeals to them. Similarly, Republican voters will vote for the types of candidates they prefer: people who stick to their principles, no matter what.
Assuming that's the case, which I feel is likely, the graph backs up what we're seeing right now! Surprise!
When one side of the "debate" has, as a central tenet to it's governing philosophy, that anything the other side is willing to give them is either inadequate or somehow tainted, it's really hard to give any sort of credence to the old "both sides are just as bad, vote Republican" canard.
I don't think this crisis is being used as some crazy way to restart the articles of confederation, I just think it's the end result of training people that if the other side EVER is okay with something, that something must not pass. Regardless of what it is. That's why they turned down Obama's fucking sweetheart conservative gift basket.
Read some of their shit. That's exactly the kind of stuff you find out there on TP friendly places like Red State and the TP blogs. Just Google Tea Party blog for a lot of fascinating reading.
A lot of these guys really do have a huge American Revolutionaryfetish. They talk about stuff like restarting the country to just after the Revolution. Nutty stuff.
Obviously some of this is just a slice of the great fruitcake that is the Tea Party, but the conversations they have with themselves on their blogs are very revealing.
SO HARRY REID is currently amending his plan to raise the debt ceiling in order to attract more Republican support. And John Boehner has just amended his plan to raise the debt ceiling in order to do the same. One of these is a useful form of compromise.
We are way past the point of absurdity when it comes to the fight over paying our bills, and yet every new development seems more ridiculous than the last. This makes it difficult to discern the mindset of the opposing sides, but a chart in this week's print edition is illuminating:
The results reminded me of my post from last week and George Packer's contention that Democrats are operating under an "ethic of responsibility" while Republicans prefer an "ethic of ultimate ends". You could hear it in the interviews with Republican hold-outs last night, when many said that their compromise plan was "Cut, Cap and Balance", the most uncompromising proposal mooted thus far.
But Republicans do not all prioritise the same ends, hence the dust-up in the House. Those who refused to vote for the speaker's bill last night are unlikely to budge from their dogmatic fiscal beliefs, their principles. Were the consequences not so great, it would be a respectable form of obstinacy. Other Republicans, though, seem to be more motivated by the thought of scoring political points and sticking it to the Democrats. Here, for example, is how Allen West, the Republican congressman, described his grudging support for the Boehner plan: "Boehner Plan is not a perfect bill. However, the fact Pelosi, Reid and Obama hate it doggone makes it perfect enough—where is their plan?" Mr Boehner himself used similar words, referencing the three Democratic leaders, to sell his plan on talk radio. One wonders what this group of Republicans could've accomplished if not for the president's "poisonous embrace", as Peggy Noonan called it, of grander bargains.
The result of this dynamic, says Ezra Klein, is that "In order to have any chance of surviving as Speaker of the House, Boehner needs to produce legislation that is completely unacceptable to the White House and the Senate." And much good that would do. Unfortunately, looking at the situation from the opposite direction also leads to frustration. Democrats have little hope of convincing the fiscal zealots to vote for a compromise in the House. So they must target that other group of Republicans, those who prioritise a political victory, in order to make a deal. Hm, does anyone know where I can buy Swiss Francs?
I admit that this may be a less-than-comprehensive take on the Republican Party. If there is a group of Republicans that I have failed to account for, would they please make their presence known.
A lot of conservatives are struggling between "what the SHIT, tea party?" and "Liberal = Bad" thinking they've pretty much grown up on.
My main issue with the Tea Party not being just a rebranding of the crazy that's been driving the GOP is that they basically didn't form until the end of Bush's term in office when he was thrown under the bus as a RINO. Because he raised the deficit a lot and bailed out companies, and thus was obviously not a conservative. Then suddenly you had this mess of people wanting to take back conservative government, by going harder right.
Mostly because they've been told time and again that if a liberal agrees with them on something, that something is NOT FAR ENOUGH RIGHT. So every time the liberals get more moderate, the line to be a conservative slides farther to keep away from the liberal cooties.
I don't think this crisis is being used as some crazy way to restart the articles of confederation, I just think it's the end result of training people that if the other side EVER is okay with something, that something must not pass. Regardless of what it is. That's why they turned down Obama's fucking sweetheart conservative gift basket.
It's as if Repiblican members of Congress are about 2 seconds away from shooting spit-wads at Democrats the next time they take the floor. That is the only thing more childish that the "It's perfect because Dems hate it" approach.
I'm honestly surprised the larger corporations haven't started sending hit squads to visit the tea party guys, at this point.
I'm surprised that organized crime hasn't started sending hit squads to visit them. A fucking huge amount of this money is in the hands of criminals. The fucking dollar and T-Bill are the official currency of Crime.
It's not even complicated. It's his fault for being born black and for a sizable number of complete fucking nutjobs becoming completely motherfucking unhinged because of that fact.
No, it's his fault for utterly botching the messaging with the stimulus and bailouts. He was fully in his bipartisanship over all mode and let the GOP run the room with him. He never called them on anything. It was really cringe-worthy.
And, if you remember, this was the climate where Fox News and MSNBC birthed the Tea Party.
Messaging is overrated. There are three things that birthed the Tea Party:
1) Racism
2) Democrats are inherently illegitimate rulers to a large percentage of the nation
3) The GOP needed to re-brand
While I agree on those three things, it really took a lot of corporate money (United Healthcare, Koch Bros, etc) and Fox News fellating them 24/7 to make this thing happen
Edit: Can anyone else figure out why Fox News is taking Boehner's side in this? Shouldn't they be going about raising the debt limit, because Murdoch's holdings will be worth a haypenny and some lint if we default
Technically the Treasury doesn't pay SS, the SSTF does that. The Treasury pays the SSTF. So: accounting shenanigans, again.
magicking up $2T: it's not going to be all unleashed at one go, so it really depends what happens and how the Fed and markets respond. Some inflation at this point would indeed be a positive, though - see sig.
I don't see how the trillion dollar coin option could produce any inflation. It would all go to pay the fed, and effectively it's just a legal loophole- instead of increasing the debt ceiling, we decrease the amount of debt on the books. The fed wouldn't spend any more money, so it would never go into circulation. Where's the inflation going to come from?
Maybe they expect to get demographic'd into irrelevance within half a decade, that's the only way I can explain the fervor with which the GOP is demanding enormous concessions from Democrats while refusing to compromise on their own pet issues. It makes no sense to not strike a bargain now and hold out for the chance to pass a much more sweeping and permanent bill. Hell if they lose this game of chicken they're not going to have anything left to govern.
I really do feel like they're taking us all down with them. Gay marriage should have popular support in 95% of the country in about 20 years. Americans are becoming less Christian, and whites will no longer be a majority in a few decades. The middle class is shrinking and the lower class is growing, and eventually people are going to stop deciding abortion is a more important issue than their own livelihoods. This could be (and god I hope it is) their last gasp before they slide into irrelevancy and the Democrats end up becoming the new rightwing party.
If this was 1860, we'd be having a Civil War. That can't happen now, with the military being strongly federal, and all the cities even in the South are liberal. Richmond's not going to be capital of the South after just voting for Obama. So instead they're doing as much damage as they can in Congress. A much lower bodycount, but potentially just as damaging to the country.
So based on McConnell's unwillingness to work with Senate Democrats, I am going to go ahead and predict that the end result Republicans are hoping for is indeed for Obama to use the 14th Amendment to raise the debt ceiling himself.
This whole thing is ridiculous, but I can not turn away from it. It is rather fascinating to see something like this situation actually be reality...
Let's not pretend that the crazy wing of the Republican Party hasn't been around for a long time. Sinclair Lewis was writing about bible crazy Republican lunes in the 1920s. Members of the GOP were fellating Hitler and Mussolini in the '30s and asking bold questions like "Is fascism the right answer for America?"
McCarthy was GOP in the '50s. The John Birch Society was the Tea Party before the Tea Party. You know that crazy shit the Air Force General was saying in Dr. Strangeglove about communists perverting his bodily fluids through flouride? That was all pulled straight from Birch publications. There's a photo of Sarah Palin with the John Birch newsletter on her desk out there.
I really could go on. The only new thing about this is that the crazy wing has finally gotten large enough to make a play to take over the entire party.
Yeah, the Tea Party are pretty much the Birchers blended with the paranoid right-wing militia fringe that fermented in the Clinton '90s.
Except the Birchers lost the media war with the more sane New Right folks like William F. Buckley, and the '90s militia movement wasn't supported by any major corporate donors and thus didn't get widespread, unquestioning media promotion.
Wow, I have to say that I'm a little bit surprised that he flat out refused any negotiations. That being said, I totally expected it...because this is exactly how a spoiled 4 year old acts when they don't get their way too.
As far as I can tell, much of the public want the ceiling raised and are going to blame politicians for screwing it up. Republicans are basically daring Obama to be a hero at this point, and I have to immagine it will go over positively with a majority of the public if he does. His most staunch detractors would wail and gnash their teeth, but they would do that no matter what he does.
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Tiger BurningDig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tuberegular
Wow, I have to say that I'm a little bit surprised that he flat out refused any negotiations. That being said, I totally expected it...because this is exactly how a spoiled 4 year old acts when they don't get their way too.
As far as I can tell, much of the public want the ceiling raised and are going to blame politicians for screwing it up. Republicans are basically daring Obama to be a hero at this point, and I have to immagine it will go over positively with a majority of the public if he does. His most staunch detractors would wail and gnash their teeth, but they would do that no matter what he does.
That is what I am hoping for. I think the Republicans are going to force Obama into this situation where he either uses the 14th to raise the ceiling, or he lets the country default. If he actually goes through with it, and the SCOTUS takes his side, at the moment, I like to think that this will blow up in the Republicans' faces.
Unfortunately, Fox News still exists, so even if the court were to rule in his favor, there will still be many people frothing at the mouth over his imagined abuse of power, and his chances of reelection will likely go down.
Of course, now that there is so much public attention on the debt ceiling, if he can do away with the entire concept of needing Congress to vote on it, I think he may actually go on to be remembered as a great president, one term or not.
Or maybe I am just trying to be too optimistic about this mess.
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For a certain portion of the players here, that's the desired outcome. They want a return to the Articles of Confederation - a neutered federal government that only exists to run the military and all other powers returned to the states. Some are even batting around the idea of reverting back to state militias.
I guess that's the problem with hiring rabid attack dogs to do your work; they'll get it done, but they won't know when to stop.
On the plus side this might result in the dawning of the Cyberpunk age wherein corporate nation-states begin to rule the world and national governments begin to be relegated to obscurity. I'd kind of like to see that (but I'd have to live in it).
Well, that's what it was based on.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Oh yes, the radicals at both ends of the spectrum.
My main issue with the Tea Party not being just a rebranding of the crazy that's been driving the GOP is that they basically didn't form until the end of Bush's term in office when he was thrown under the bus as a RINO. Because he raised the deficit a lot and bailed out companies, and thus was obviously not a conservative. Then suddenly you had this mess of people wanting to take back conservative government, by going harder right.
Mostly because they've been told time and again that if a liberal agrees with them on something, that something is NOT FAR ENOUGH RIGHT. So every time the liberals get more moderate, the line to be a conservative slides farther to keep away from the liberal cooties.
I don't think this crisis is being used as some crazy way to restart the articles of confederation, I just think it's the end result of training people that if the other side EVER is okay with something, that something must not pass. Regardless of what it is. That's why they turned down Obama's fucking sweetheart conservative gift basket.
I think he was talking about those in office, not people's opinions of what they want in office.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
What liberal radicals are subbornly refusing a deal? You might be able to pick out some random dude, but you're not going to find anyone making a pledge to never ever make any form of deal.
If there's one dude way out on one side, and sixty way out on the other side, there's no equivalence. You have a nutcase as an example, against a caucus of crazy. That's what drives people nuts with this line of reasoning: the dems have pretty much dropped every demand they had, and gone hard right to try and reach a compromise. And in response, the reps have gone "shit, no, that's not what we wanted, we want.. uh.. quick guys, find something else we think they'll never agree to!"
pleasepaypreacher.net
Those Republican jackasses in Congress don't live in a bubble, but in a self-reinforcing jackass ecosystem. A Republican elite and media that pushes a message of non-compromise and punishment for collaboration, and an electorate that reinforces it.
Assuming that's the case, which I feel is likely, the graph backs up what we're seeing right now! Surprise!
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Read some of their shit. That's exactly the kind of stuff you find out there on TP friendly places like Red State and the TP blogs. Just Google Tea Party blog for a lot of fascinating reading.
A lot of these guys really do have a huge American Revolutionaryfetish. They talk about stuff like restarting the country to just after the Revolution. Nutty stuff.
Obviously some of this is just a slice of the great fruitcake that is the Tea Party, but the conversations they have with themselves on their blogs are very revealing.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Or our own CIA
I'm surprised that organized crime hasn't started sending hit squads to visit them. A fucking huge amount of this money is in the hands of criminals. The fucking dollar and T-Bill are the official currency of Crime.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
While I agree on those three things, it really took a lot of corporate money (United Healthcare, Koch Bros, etc) and Fox News fellating them 24/7 to make this thing happen
Edit: Can anyone else figure out why Fox News is taking Boehner's side in this? Shouldn't they be going about raising the debt limit, because Murdoch's holdings will be worth a haypenny and some lint if we default
Saved.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
But really, one's just as bad as the other...
I really do feel like they're taking us all down with them. Gay marriage should have popular support in 95% of the country in about 20 years. Americans are becoming less Christian, and whites will no longer be a majority in a few decades. The middle class is shrinking and the lower class is growing, and eventually people are going to stop deciding abortion is a more important issue than their own livelihoods. This could be (and god I hope it is) their last gasp before they slide into irrelevancy and the Democrats end up becoming the new rightwing party.
If this was 1860, we'd be having a Civil War. That can't happen now, with the military being strongly federal, and all the cities even in the South are liberal. Richmond's not going to be capital of the South after just voting for Obama. So instead they're doing as much damage as they can in Congress. A much lower bodycount, but potentially just as damaging to the country.
This whole thing is ridiculous, but I can not turn away from it. It is rather fascinating to see something like this situation actually be reality...
Yeah, the Tea Party are pretty much the Birchers blended with the paranoid right-wing militia fringe that fermented in the Clinton '90s.
Except the Birchers lost the media war with the more sane New Right folks like William F. Buckley, and the '90s militia movement wasn't supported by any major corporate donors and thus didn't get widespread, unquestioning media promotion.
Any thoughts on how accurate it is?
Seeing as how the House isn't going to accept Reid's proposal any time soon, it is incredibly accurate.
That said, I say he should go with option 3's Ignore Ceiling.
He won't risk impeachment because the Senate is 2/3rd democrat and they would never impeach him over this.
Wow, I have to say that I'm a little bit surprised that he flat out refused any negotiations. That being said, I totally expected it...because this is exactly how a spoiled 4 year old acts when they don't get their way too.
As far as I can tell, much of the public want the ceiling raised and are going to blame politicians for screwing it up. Republicans are basically daring Obama to be a hero at this point, and I have to immagine it will go over positively with a majority of the public if he does. His most staunch detractors would wail and gnash their teeth, but they would do that no matter what he does.
No, the court can't issue an opinion on a case that isn't before it. I agree it would be nice here.
That is what I am hoping for. I think the Republicans are going to force Obama into this situation where he either uses the 14th to raise the ceiling, or he lets the country default. If he actually goes through with it, and the SCOTUS takes his side, at the moment, I like to think that this will blow up in the Republicans' faces.
Unfortunately, Fox News still exists, so even if the court were to rule in his favor, there will still be many people frothing at the mouth over his imagined abuse of power, and his chances of reelection will likely go down.
Of course, now that there is so much public attention on the debt ceiling, if he can do away with the entire concept of needing Congress to vote on it, I think he may actually go on to be remembered as a great president, one term or not.
Or maybe I am just trying to be too optimistic about this mess.