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I need educating on The Avengers history/canon - pretty please with a cherry on top!
poshniallo
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hi
So, I need some help with a card game I'm working on.
It uses The Avengers, and I haven't read the book or the books of the main heroes in a LONG time. My Avengers were the 70s and 80s. I'm trying (and this is perhaps doomed) to integrate the 'classic' Avengers with the modern ones and the upcoming movie(s). I know classic 70s & 80s Marvel to fanboy levels, but since then I just kinda know about the comics because I'm a dork and I have friends who read these books.
My first question is about line-up. I need 8 heroes, and my current line-up is:
Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Hawkeye, Black Widow... and two more.
I am toying with Spiderman and Wolverine, because I hear they're both involved in the Avengers nowadays. But neither is quintessentially Avengers, and having Wolverine in The Avengers means he can't be in an X-men version of the game later, so I feel it should be Wasp and Hank Pym, or even Scarlet Witch and The Vision, who I personally love. Have I missed anyone major? If you were to play an Avengers game would you feel cheated without Giant Man and The Wasp? Or disgruntled that Spiderman and Wolverine had muddied the waters?
The second is about enemies. I need the foes to be in groups of about 10 villains, though of course I could just have a group of miscellaneous lone wolves. My very tentative shortlist is:
Skrulls & Kree
Loki & Asgardians (Enchantress, Wrecking Crew etc)
Red Skull & Nazis, e.g. Arnim Zola
Hydra
Baron Zemo & The Masters of Evil
Aliens (assorted)
Magical/Mystical (assorted)
Hi-tech (assorted) e.g. Ultron, Kang.
My problems with this list are numerous, partly to do with thematic concerns, partly to do with the necessity of organising enemies into groups.
(1) I think of Galactus as much more of a FF enemy, but it seems weird to have Galactus not battling Earth's Mightiest Heroes. No Galactus on the list, but I worry that he's appeared in Avengers stories I'm not familiar with.
(2) The Red Skull doesn't seem to have enough allies to sustain an entire group, without padding it out with Nazi Robots etc. Perhaps I should just put him in with Hydra.
(3) Ultron and Kang seem too important to have as just part of a misc. group, but I don't know of enough allies to do them justice as a group. I could put Ultron in the Masters of Evil, but that group will be overloaded as it is.
(4) I feel I'm missing some big names, but I can't put my finger on them. I need a variety of power levels, so I can't just put big name after big name. Low- and mid-level villains are necessary. Is there anyone hugely important I've missed? Or a type? Cosmic/Dimensional seemed a possible group, separate from Aliens.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
So, I need some help with a card game I'm working on.
It uses The Avengers, and I haven't read the book or the books of the main heroes in a LONG time. My Avengers were the 70s and 80s. I'm trying (and this is perhaps doomed) to integrate the 'classic' Avengers with the modern ones and the upcoming movie(s). I know classic 70s & 80s Marvel to fanboy levels, but since then I just kinda know about the comics because I'm a dork and I have friends who read these books.
My first question is about line-up. I need 8 heroes, and my current line-up is:
Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Hawkeye, Black Widow... and two more.
I am toying with Spiderman and Wolverine, because I hear they're both involved in the Avengers nowadays. But neither is quintessentially Avengers, and having Wolverine in The Avengers means he can't be in an X-men version of the game later, so I feel it should be Wasp and Hank Pym, or even Scarlet Witch and The Vision, who I personally love. Have I missed anyone major? If you were to play an Avengers game would you feel cheated without Giant Man and The Wasp? Or disgruntled that Spiderman and Wolverine had muddied the waters?
The second is about enemies. I need the foes to be in groups of about 10 villains, though of course I could just have a group of miscellaneous lone wolves. My very tentative shortlist is:
Skrulls & Kree
Loki & Asgardians (Enchantress, Wrecking Crew etc)
Red Skull & Nazis, e.g. Arnim Zola
Hydra
Baron Zemo & The Masters of Evil
Aliens (assorted)
Magical/Mystical (assorted)
Hi-tech (assorted) e.g. Ultron, Kang.
My problems with this list are numerous, partly to do with thematic concerns, partly to do with the necessity of organising enemies into groups.
(1) I think of Galactus as much more of a FF enemy, but it seems weird to have Galactus not battling Earth's Mightiest Heroes. No Galactus on the list, but I worry that he's appeared in Avengers stories I'm not familiar with.
(2) The Red Skull doesn't seem to have enough allies to sustain an entire group, without padding it out with Nazi Robots etc. Perhaps I should just put him in with Hydra.
(3) Ultron and Kang seem too important to have as just part of a misc. group, but I don't know of enough allies to do them justice as a group. I could put Ultron in the Masters of Evil, but that group will be overloaded as it is.
(4) I feel I'm missing some big names, but I can't put my finger on them. I need a variety of power levels, so I can't just put big name after big name. Low- and mid-level villains are necessary. Is there anyone hugely important I've missed? Or a type? Cosmic/Dimensional seemed a possible group, separate from Aliens.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
I figure I could take a bear.
poshniallo on
0
Posts
Iron Man
Captain America (Steve Rogers)
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Sentry
Luke Cage
and during/after civil war was
Captain America (Bucky Barnes)
Spider-man
Spider-woman
Wolverine
Luke Cage
Ronin (Hawkeye)
Dr. Strange
Ms. Marvel
And now is
Luke Cage
Spider-man
Hawkeye
Ms. Marvel
Iron Fist
Thing
Mockingbird
Wolverine
So, those are people who are now Avengers.
So many
Echo doesn't count, she was on the team for like ten seconds and then Hawkeye took her identity. Steve was the leader of the resistance, but the second list is mostly after civil war and dark reign, because civil war includes like, every resistance member as the new avengers became the core of that group. Jewel is on the third list, but I left her out because she is such an unknown and isn't someone you would want for a card game.
Initial lineup:
cage
cap
iron man
Wolverine
spider-man
Spider-woman
Sentry
Then, Ms. Marvel joined after House of M
Then, after civil war the anti-reg New Avengers were
Cage
Spider-Man
wolverine
dr strange
Iron fist
Echo
Ronin (Clint Barton)
Spider Woman (later defected to pro-reg side)
The pro reg Mighty Avengers were
Ms. marvel
iron Man
wasp
Wonder man
Ares
Sentry
Black Widow
After Secret Invasion the renegade New Avengers were
Ms. marvel
Bucky cap
Spider man
wolverine
Mockingbird
Ronin
Luke Cage
echo
Spider Woman
Jessica Jones
The new mighty avengers were
Hank Pym
US Agent
Hercules
Amadeus Cho
Jocasta
Stature
Vision
Quicksilver
Scarlet Witch (was actually Loki in disguise)
Norman Osborn's Dark Avengers were
Norman as Iron Patriot
bullseye as hawkeye
Venom as spidey
Moonstone as ms marvel
Noh-Var
Sentry
Ares
Daken as Wolverine
After Siege, the New Avengers were
Wolverine
Cage
Thing
Spider Man
Ms marvel
Mockingbird
Iron fist
Jessica Jones
Dr strange
Victoria Hand
Mighty Avengers ended but regular Avengers came back with a lineup of
Bucky Cap
Thor
Iron man
Maria hill
Hawkeye
Spidey
Wolverine
Red Hulk
Protector (Noh-var)
Spider-Woman
Steve Rogers also put together a covert ops Secret Avengers team with
Beast
black widow
Moon knight
Nova
Price of Orphans
Shang chi
Valkryie
War Machine
But I'm not sure it affects my attempt to find the quintessential Avengers team?
Classic
Cap
Thor
Iron Man
Hawkeye
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Wasp
Giant Man
Mighty
Ms Marvel
Wonder Man
War Machine
Quasar
Black Widow
She Hulk
Beast
Hercules
New
Spider-Man
Wolverine
Luke Cage
Spider-Woman
Protector
The Sentry
Iron Fist
Echo
Galactus isn't really an Avengers enemy, so you're right in that he'd feel weird on the list. Avengers bad guys foremost in my mind are: Kang, Ultron, Zemo and the Masters of Evil*, the Skrulls and the Kree (especially the Supreme Intelligence - what a dick) fucking each other up, the Red Skull (if Cap was on the team), Hydra, AIM, the Wrecking Crew, the various pantheons (as long as either Thor or Herc was on the team) and then major one-offs like Count Nefaria. Then you have second-string teams like the Zodiac who'd show up once in a while to get their asses kicked. They don't have a great set of villains, to be honest. Compared to Doom, Galactus, Annihilus, etc for the FF and Magneto, Sinister, the Sentinels, Apocalypse and Mojo for the X-Men, the A-List Avengers villains who aren't really just villains of individual members are Ultron, Kang and the Masters of Evil.
Also, Jarvis has to be some kind of card - Cap says he's an Avenger, and that's good enough for me.
*There are a bunch of incarnations, not all of them led by Zemo, but his was the best by miles and miles.
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If you want classic, it's Ant-Man/Wasp
Spider-Woman and Ms. Marvel also seem to feature a lot. Maybe more than Black Widow?
Shit. Completely forgot about her.
And yeah, Quasar.
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Each hero has about 4 game abilities/disadvantags and 3 of Hank's will be Antman/Giant-man/Yellowjacket, with the 4th being either 'Science!' or 'Sad Sack!'
Jarvis will be in there - lots of non-superhero allies, such as SHIELD characters.
AIM! I'd forgotten them! Thanks!
Actually, personally, the more I delve into their foes, the more I like them. Ultron was great, the Masters of Evil had some classics, The Wrecking Crew were cool, Hydra/Red Skull were retro. I'd forgotten the Supreme Intelligence - it's good to have mastermind/manipulators rather than simple powerhouses.
I know Hulk wasn't a classic Avenger, but he's been in some incarnations of the team, he's in the Ultimates and he's in the movie. And he's perhaps my favourite hero of all time, and he needs a group (Defenders? Nah.)
Quasar was on the team for ages!
Hulk's a founding member. And he's been an off and on member.
Is Terminus an Avengers bad guy? The only stories I have with him are the JLA/Avengers series and an X-Men annual in which he tools about the Savage Land until the team kick his ass.
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Echo is more of an Avengers than he is, let's be fair
See I thought that, but didn't check! I did worry that some people might not look on him as Avengerish enough. It seems like that's not a problem.
If I have to choose between the Pyms and the Maximoff-Williams-Liptons, which would be better? My guts says the Avengers aren't the Avengers without Hank Pym, but I do love the Vision. I do really need to have 8, unfortunately
...well, actually, a multiple of four. So I could go:
Cap
Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Widow
The Vision
Scarlet Witch
Wasp
Hank Pym
2 others.
If I make it 12, who the hell do I choose? Wonder Man, Ms Marvel, Namor, Black Knight, Spider-woman? Once I'm past those 10 I really feel like I'm missing no-one fundamental. Does anyone disagree? Is there anyone after those 10 you'd feel cheated not to have?
I'd like to save Luke Cage for a 'Street-level' group including Iron Fist, DD, Moon Knight etc. Marvel Knights, kinda.
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And Godzilla.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I think other posters have done a great job with addressing the Avengers line-up, let's talk about the villains.
Being your own game, feel free to pull not only from the comics, but from different forms of Marvel media (video games, cartoons, the movies) to pad out your foes.
If I were putting together a list of 10 major enemies with themes...
1. Pantheon: Loki, Enchantress and the Wrecking Crew. The crew are essentially high-end jobbers, tough and scary enough to crush a street level hero or seriously challenge an A-lister, but they're essentially super-powered mooks. They're working for Loki and Amora, who've formed an uneasy alliance (the best kind) to humble Thor and the Avengers. Bonus points for other Thor villains like Malekith and Ulik.
2. Technological: Ultron from the Ultron Unlimited story archttp://www.comicvine.com/ultron-unlimited/39-55757/. Really, the quintessential Ultron story and one that establishes him as a global threat all on his own. Don't forget he's a fan of creating his own robot soldiers like the Vision and Jocasta. Give him some necro-cyborg foot soldiers and "updated" models of other synthezoid and android heroes.
3. Aliens: Kree vs. Skrulls with the Supreme Intelligence and Ronan on one side and the Skrull Empress (there's been a few, so doesn't really matter who) and Super Skrull on the other. This could be a neat angle where the Avengers are caught between the two sides, and your players have to decide who they're going to ally with.
4. Time Traveling: Kang the Conqueror from the Kang Dynasty story arc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kang_Dynasty. What Kurt Busiek did for Ultron he turned it up to 11 for Kang in this story. Throw in Immortus (aka future-future Kang) as a wild card if you'd like.
5. Facists: The Red Skull, Arnim Zola, Baron Strucker and Hydra. Kinda based off the Captain America movie where the Red Skull was the head of Hydra. Fanatical neo-nazis with high tech weapons. Maybe throw in Madame Hydra and Gorgon for kicks as well.
6. Dark Reflections: Norman Osborne, HAMMER and the Dark Avengers. Based off of the upcoming story line, but make it yours and go nuts with it. Norman's using his wealth to fund a private army and team of anti-avengers. Fill it with "dark mirror" characters and arch-nemeses to make it real fun. A counter for your possible Avengers team might consist of Taskmaster, Crimson Dynamo, Abomination, Ares, Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, Moonstone, Satana, Red Wasp (from Ultimates), Atlas.
7. Sorcery: Morgan le Fay with the Darkhold. How do you make a centuries old evil sorceress more of a threat? Give her Chthon's unholy book of dark magic. Marvel has a few notable demons, vampires, and extra-dimensional horrors you could throw in here.
8. Straight-forward Supervillainy: The Masters of Evil. Classic Avenger's foes with an absolutely huge roster to pull from. Just check out the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_Evil and use about a dozen or so that you're not using elsewhere. Put Zemo in charge, or use The Hood if you want to be more hipster about it. As a bonus, I'd have them allied with MODOK and AIM.
9. Monsters: The Deviants are Marvel's original evil empire. Give them control over classic Strange Tales marvel monsters like Grogg, Grottu, Orrgo and others and then you have a rather outlandish, though still very credible, threat.
10. Cosmic: Thanos. Infinity Gems. 'nuff said.
Godzilla is hero to all
TLB did I ever tell you that Champions idea I had where it would be Hank Pym's Super Science Squad and they would fight giant monsters all the time
I still say it would be neat but I want a Hank Pym: Worst Hero ongoing
He fucks up a lot but he does good shit half the time
I like Hank Pym a bunch and not in a ironic USAgent-y way.
Beyond that, have you thought of a more generalized take on the idea? Rather than have a core set of 8, have 20 or so and let the player make his own team of Avengers? So everyone could put together their own personal favorite incarnation, or just their favorite eight heroes.
I've always liked the concept of a core group + rotating members to meet certain specific threats. Depending on the card game format that Poshniallo is working with, making a "hand" of 8 characters from a pool of 20 could work well. Maybe the player is assigned 4 core members and has to "assemble" 4 others?
If you had to pick 20, my list would be:
Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Pym, Wasp, Black Panther, Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Beast, Ms Marvel, Wonder Man, Spider-Man, Quicksilver, Spider-Woman, Black Widow, She Hulk, Quasar, Dr. Strange.
That's assuming you'd want to do something else with the street level heroes (so no Cage or Iron Fist) and mutants (so Wolverine's out, though Quicksilver, Beast, and Scarlet Witch have enough Avengers cred to stay).
I don't want to go into too much detail, but the game is a card game that is deck-building+role selection. Players build a deck of cards in a vaguely (very vaguely) dominion/thunderstone-esque way, and on their turn choose one of the available Avengers (each game has a number of heroes equal to the number of players, plus one), which gives them various special abilities.
It's pretty good so far, but it's early days yet. Got 300+ cards to finish for the first rounds of playtesting. But a better core idea than any other game I've made so far.
I did some maths today, and it really has to be 8 Avengers, but playtesting may see me wrong. I do think, as they are roles analogous to those in Puerto Rico or Race For The Galaxy, 8 is a good number anyway - it gives a good amount of complexity while still allowing people to strategically combine them.
So now it's more about the villains I think.
I do have one question - is there a particular off-world location that the Avengers frequent? The FF have the Negative Zone, X-men have the Shi-ar Empire and a few others. I know of various places the Avengers have ended up, but I can't think of one that they returned to again and again.
probably cause they had to go inside him or some shit.
I don't like any characters ironically
I love hank pym because he is a fuck up who does creepy things that no one should do
He is awful at being a hero
He is good at doing science but he still needs someone to say NO HANK, THAT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA
Purple suit Pym is the best. Pocket quinjets and Lockjaw and pet Tigras for everyone!
I'm with you. He is impressively shit. The only superheroes I really love are fuckups. And also Cap. Dunno why, I'm not even American. He's just so cool.