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The American Jobs Act OR Stimulus 2: The Stimulating

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Posts

  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    Wait, the plan is tax cuts?

    TAX CUTS!

    TAX FREAKIN' CUTS!

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    wwtMask wrote:
    Tomanta wrote:
    If this was The West Wing, Sam, Josh, Toby, and CJ would be wandering the halls frantically trying to figure out who had the bright idea of releasing a terror threat alert right at the end of the speech.

    ... it wouldn't surprise me to find their real life equivalents doing the same thing right now.

    EDIT: Is Bachmann going to look at the right camera this time?

    It was actually just before.

    By the way, for liberals: since the cuts aren't in THIS bill, you can call your Congresspeople and tell them to vote for it and vote against whatever cuts the super committee comes up with. This is a have cake and eat it too moment.

    This doesn't work for those of us that are represented by Republicans. I mean, I'm gonna call them and all, but since I'm not Daddy Warbucks, they won't give a shit about what I have to say.

    Pretend to be the President of the local monocle enthusiasts club.

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  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Team regular
    rockrnger wrote:
    Wait, the plan is tax cuts?

    TAX CUTS!

    TAX FREAKIN' CUTS!
    Sort of.

    It's tax cuts aimed squarely at the middle and lower classes. And credits only for companies that start hiring american, and exporting products overseas.

    And stimulus spending: part II.

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  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote:
    rockrnger wrote:
    Wait, the plan is tax cuts?

    TAX CUTS!

    TAX FREAKIN' CUTS!
    Sort of.

    It's tax cuts aimed squarely at the middle and lower classes. And credits only for companies that start hiring american, and exporting products overseas.

    And stimulus spending: part II.

    This whole thing has got me so pissed.

    The whole plan is to take the stimulus that didn't work last time because it was A:To small and B:mostly tax cuts and make it smaller and more tax cuts. It doesn't matter who you give your tax cut to. If they can save it they will and if they can't they pay their credit card with it and they save it.

    Here is a idea. If we have any money left over we can back a dumptruck of it to Texas so they don't have to pay taxes. Gobama!

  • Brian KrakowBrian Krakow Registered User regular
    Jobs plan! Hurray! A pretty bad jobs plan but nothing will ever get passed anyways, so whatever.

    Hopefully it will improve the President's political prospects. Have to agree with Thanatos that the time for this was two years ago, though.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    It doesn't matter who you give your tax cut to. If they can save it they will and if they can't they pay their credit card with it and they save it.

    Well, sort of. It's called the Marginal Propensity to Save, and as a person gets richer that propensity rises higher and higher. If you give a poor person - say, me - 200 dollars, that's all getting spent. Granted I may spend it on my credit card bill, but lets face it then I'll be using the credit card again next month anyway. Not only that, but I'm spending that 200 dollars on goods and services, which helps provide immediate stimulation of the environment as those people receive wages and profits from my business, and on down the road.

    As you get richer though, your propensity to save rises very, very high. If you give Bill Gates an extra 200,000 dollars, is he going to change his spending habits? Not really. It'll go into his same investment accounts as all his other billions, which really doesn't do jack for the economy at large.

    That's why not all tax cuts are equal.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Snoqualmie, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Look, people, get over it. We are fucked now and forever. Our "Corporate Overlords" have been and will continue to run shit in this country and the world until the end. "Money talks, Bullshit walks"; has been always the ultimate truth since the inception of the Industrial Revolution. So if you have thoughts of rainbows and unicorns (which the majority of liberals have.) just drop it, shits done. Liberals are far outnumbered by Conservatives as far as TEXA$ powering their agendas is concerned.

    As long as the rich and upper middle class have their jobs, homes and lives unaffected by this climate, they could give two shits about the middle class and the poor. Someone should've trademarked T-Shirts with Saint Regan's mug on one side and on the back it should say; "FUCK IT! I'VE GOT'S MINES".


    Notice how politicians, who don't back "corporate interest", are DOA before even going through preliminary primaries. Perry will win & will be worse than W and O combined, but he is folksy and thats what matters to TRUE AMERICA.

    Ticaldfjam on
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    Being more cynical than Rust doesn't make you cool or right, you know.

  • dbrock270dbrock270 Registered User regular
    Ticaldfjam wrote:
    Look, people, get over it. We are fucked now and forever. Our "Corporate Overlords" have been and will continue to run shit in this country and the world until the end. "Money talks, Bullshit walks"; has been always the ultimate truth since the inception of the Industrial Revolution. So if you have thoughts of rainbows and unicorns (which the majority of liberals have.) just drop it, shits done. Liberals are far outnumbered by Conservatives as far as TEXA$ powering their agendas is concerned.

    As long as the rich and upper middle class have their jobs, homes and lives unaffected by this climate, they could give two shits about the middle class and the poor. Someone should've trademarked T-Shirts with Saint Regan's mug on one side and on the back it should say; "FUCK IT! I'VE GOT'S MINES".


    Notice how politicians, who don't back "corporate interest", are DOA before even going through preliminary primaries. Perry will win & will be worse than W and O combined, but he is folksy and thats what matters to TRUE AMERICA.

    And let me guess, you support Ron Paul right?

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Being more cynical than Rust doesn't make you cool or right, you know.

    Isn't that like being colder than absolute zero?

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  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Snoqualmie, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    dbrock270 wrote:
    Ticaldfjam wrote:
    Look, people, get over it. We are fucked now and forever. Our "Corporate Overlords" have been and will continue to run shit in this country and the world until the end. "Money talks, Bullshit walks"; has been always the ultimate truth since the inception of the Industrial Revolution. So if you have thoughts of rainbows and unicorns (which the majority of liberals have.) just drop it, shits done. Liberals are far outnumbered by Conservatives as far as TEXA$ powering their agendas is concerned.

    As long as the rich and upper middle class have their jobs, homes and lives unaffected by this climate, they could give two shits about the middle class and the poor. Someone should've trademarked T-Shirts with Saint Regan's mug on one side and on the back it should say; "FUCK IT! I'VE GOT'S MINES".


    Notice how politicians, who don't back "corporate interest", are DOA before even going through preliminary primaries. Perry will win & will be worse than W and O combined, but he is folksy and thats what matters to TRUE AMERICA.

    And let me guess, you support Ron Paul right?

    Hey, might as well. At least Ron does'nt Bullshit around with his craziness and we will know what to expect.

    Ticaldfjam on
  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Did you just refer to yourself in the third person?

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Snoqualmie, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Chanus wrote:
    Did you just refer to yourself in the third person?

    I did, but seeing enough of politics on the internet alone just makes my brains go to mush.

    And yes Cap I know what you're talking about, but are the continous, "Hopes and Dreams", of a bunch of libs any better when we damn well know its like talking to a brick wall as far as today's American Politics are concerned?

    The only way stuff starts going liberals way is another depression when enough of the Middle class ( All levels, Upper, Middle and Lower.) become poor themselves for anything to change. As far as "The Joneses" are doing well in their McMansions, they could care less about anyone else. Its basic, logical, human nature. No amount of screaming is going to change that.

    Ticaldfjam on
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    I know a dude who owns a couple of restaurants who swears up and down he makes little money because of the payroll tax. He's a nice guy, he hired my sister, but man does he hate some Democrats.

    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote:
    I know a dude who owns a couple of restaurants who swears up and down he makes little money because of the payroll tax. He's a nice guy, he hired my sister, but man does he hate some Democrats.

    Er, most servers don't claim a lot of their income, so he's not actually paying the full payroll tax to begin with.

    Chances are, if he's not making money, it has fuck all to do with taxes and everything to do with how he's running his business.

    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Derrick wrote:
    Cantido wrote:
    I know a dude who owns a couple of restaurants who swears up and down he makes little money because of the payroll tax. He's a nice guy, he hired my sister, but man does he hate some Democrats.

    Er, most servers don't claim a lot of their income, so he's not actually paying the full payroll tax to begin with.

    Chances are, if he's not making money, it has fuck all to do with taxes and everything to do with how he's running his business.

    Anyone who isn't doing well because of taxes needs an accountant. Or a better one.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    rockrnger wrote:
    Wait, the plan is tax cuts?

    TAX CUTS!

    TAX FREAKIN' CUTS!

    It's 60-40, and these are pretty well targeted, as things go. Also apparently replaces the lost SSI income from the general fund so it won't be a stealth way to cut social security.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Kana wrote:
    It doesn't matter who you give your tax cut to. If they can save it they will and if they can't they pay their credit card with it and they save it.

    Well, sort of. It's called the Marginal Propensity to Save, and as a person gets richer that propensity rises higher and higher. If you give a poor person - say, me - 200 dollars, that's all getting spent. Granted I may spend it on my credit card bill, but lets face it then I'll be using the credit card again next month anyway. Not only that, but I'm spending that 200 dollars on goods and services, which helps provide immediate stimulation of the environment as those people receive wages and profits from my business, and on down the road.

    As you get richer though, your propensity to save rises very, very high. If you give Bill Gates an extra 200,000 dollars, is he going to change his spending habits? Not really. It'll go into his same investment accounts as all his other billions, which really doesn't do jack for the economy at large.

    That's why not all tax cuts are equal.

    It also depends on how the tax cuts are given. Bush's "Here's a check for $300!" is more likely to be saved than a payroll tax cut that increases your check $20 every couple of weeks. I'm betting the average American does not even realize that they already had one such tax cut.

  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote:
    Kana wrote:
    It doesn't matter who you give your tax cut to. If they can save it they will and if they can't they pay their credit card with it and they save it.

    Well, sort of. It's called the Marginal Propensity to Save, and as a person gets richer that propensity rises higher and higher. If you give a poor person - say, me - 200 dollars, that's all getting spent. Granted I may spend it on my credit card bill, but lets face it then I'll be using the credit card again next month anyway. Not only that, but I'm spending that 200 dollars on goods and services, which helps provide immediate stimulation of the environment as those people receive wages and profits from my business, and on down the road.

    As you get richer though, your propensity to save rises very, very high. If you give Bill Gates an extra 200,000 dollars, is he going to change his spending habits? Not really. It'll go into his same investment accounts as all his other billions, which really doesn't do jack for the economy at large.

    That's why not all tax cuts are equal.

    It also depends on how the tax cuts are given. Bush's "Here's a check for $300!" is more likely to be saved than a payroll tax cut that increases your check $20 every couple of weeks. I'm betting the average American does not even realize that they already had one such tax cut.

    Yeah, Dems are the worst at political messaging. The stimulus cut the shit out of taxes and the tax compromise cut the shit out of taxes. I mean, I had a conversation with conservative co-workers recently and I had to constantly remind them to stop bitching about high taxes because tax burden is lowest it's been in like 40 years. Then I had to remind them of the payroll tax cut and how it directly affects them and how Republicans don't want to renew it.

    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Tax cuts? Are you fucking kidding me?

    Obama is a Republican, again. Thankfully, there's zero chance of anything getting by the house.

    Edit: seething done with

    It's not going to pass, but it's not completely awful.

    override367 on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2011
    What is more important than it passing is the message when it doesn't. Obama is stacking the deck.

    Edit: Xanatos Gambit. Fail condition is a win condition.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Barney Frank joined Chuck Schumer's they're intentional sabotaging the economy line. I suspect you'll hear that a lot from surrogates without it ever once crossing the lips of the President or Vice President.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Cantor is actually for most of this stuff except raising taxes on the richest, so I'm guessing tomorrow he's going to be against all of it?

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Cantor is actually for most of this stuff except raising taxes on the richest, so I'm guessing tomorrow he's going to be against all of it?

    Duh. Which is most of the point. He's going to basically say that this is a proposal that the Chamber of Commerce supports and that the AFL-CIO supports, but Republicans in Congress are more interested in winning elections than helping the country (I suspect he'll saying "playing political games" and "the next election" which are slightly less stark terms, but whatever) and then he'll run against that and tell people to vote for a Congress that is interested in solving problems.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    I'm seriously considering linking Obama's proposal to my brother and saying it's Cantor's counter-proposal

    Just because it would be great to hear him praise Obama accidentally again (last time was after his rant on Obamacare destroying his health insurance costs, I sent him a breakdown of the ACA and said it was Romney's plan if he gets elected, and my bro was like "that sounds great!")

    Although, just like with the ACA, after the fact he'll just claim I lied about the facts contained within :(

    override367 on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Krugman actually liked it fairly well. Has my basic take that it was better than expected, not good enough, and unlikely to pass but more likely to pass than what would be best.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    I wish it were possible to pass this, if we dropped the payroll tax breaks and an equal amount of rich tax increases (so the overall thing is roughly the same) maybe? I'd be fine with that. The best parts of this are the parts that give hiring incentive, a fucking no brainer that should be automatic economic policy above 7% unemployment

    override367 on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The payroll tax cuts are actually a good idea if a) they're temporary (we'll see) and b) not going to fuck up the SSI budget (it's not). Even more so because these ones don't apply to corporations that aren't small (based on what I was hearing from budget wonks on Maddow).

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Oh I know that, but it seems the thing I'd be most happy with giving up

    More likely, all the good stuff will get cut

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The employer side payroll taxes are probably the best things to go, yeah. The employee side is one of the better ideas that could feasibly be passed by this House though.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Quid wrote:
    Derrick wrote:
    Cantido wrote:
    I know a dude who owns a couple of restaurants who swears up and down he makes little money because of the payroll tax. He's a nice guy, he hired my sister, but man does he hate some Democrats.

    Er, most servers don't claim a lot of their income, so he's not actually paying the full payroll tax to begin with.

    Chances are, if he's not making money, it has fuck all to do with taxes and everything to do with how he's running his business.

    Anyone who isn't doing well because of taxes needs an accountant. Or a better one.

    Or watch the one he has a bit closer.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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  • BarcardiBarcardi All the Wizards Under A Rock: AfganistanRegistered User regular
    I missed this AND football because of this historic power outage. Damn, what a night.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    I personally just love how this capitalist market is falling. Once its over and Capitalism dead forever, I'll be one proud person.

    Wait really? The capitalists are getting stronger and the socialists are getting weaker - labor in the west is being systematically purged while corporate interests are given unlimited power and the content providers are buying the content producers, sidestepping the law with naked bribes. I really wish it was like you said, Capitalism's iron gorilla grip on the psyche of America (probably Canada too if Harper is any indication) is probably our single greatest problem.

    People will gladly be unemployed and have no medical care if it means someone somewhere else gets to own their own chain of private islands, although I do agree this is unsustainable, eventually the poor will eat the rich.

    override367 on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    I personally just love how this capitalist market is falling. Once its over and Capitalism dead forever, I'll be one proud person.

    What do you see it being replaced with? Feudalism back for a second bite of the cherry? And why will you be proud? Is the global recession down to you?

  • WMain00WMain00 Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    I personally just love how this capitalist market is falling. Once its over and Capitalism dead forever, I'll be one proud person.

    Unfortunately the alternatives aren't too great either. Feudalism as Bogart mentioned, probably with a slice of the USA collapsing.

    EDIT: Though personally all I see is mega-corporation dystopia and the eventual growth of neo-conservative tea party members. Hell, maybe in a hundred years time there won't be a unites states. It'll be split between north and south. Civil War 2.

    WMain00 on
  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    I personally just love how this capitalist market is falling. Once its over and Capitalism dead forever, I'll be one proud person.

    Proud? Pleased, I can see. I'm not a big fan of unrestrained capitalism myself. But proud? You live in Canada, if I recall correctly. What are you doing to loosen the corporate deathgrip on US politics?

    WotanAnubis on
  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    The best parts of this are the parts that give hiring incentive, a fucking no brainer that should be automatic economic policy above 7% unemployment

    See, I don't understand how this is going to do anything. Hiring cost are really low right now to begin with so how is lowering them more going to help?

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  • DextaDexta Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2011
    Isn't it incredibly unlikely for the poor to eat the rich in non class based societies?

    And Capitalism is still better than a lot of other alternatives.

    Dexta on
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