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JUST Black Panther Thread
wwtMask
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Well, since there's been a lot of talk about the king of Wakanda and the current writer of his exploits, it looked like we needed a thread. The thread is to discuss the entire history of this character but, I'll be honest, I imagine the majority of the posts will be related to the current run.
If you're out of the loop, Wikipedia can educate you on King T'Challa.
That said, let's kick it off with a couple of related topics that have generated buzz around here lately. First, given the direction of the book since he took over, would Reggie Hudlin be considered a racist? This discussion began here and quickly derailed the thread. It's quite long and I won't repost it, but you should read it. I'll just say that I was one of maybe three people that said no.
Second, are the Wakandans really mass murderers for refusing to share their advanced technology and knowledge with the rest of the world? That one started here, in the new Civil War thread, citing the current run's assertion that the Wakandans have the cure for cancer. Again, I say no, due to cultural and political implications.
So what do you think? Also, Hudlin's Black Panther: great Black Panther, or greatest Black Panther?
If you're out of the loop, Wikipedia can educate you on King T'Challa.
That said, let's kick it off with a couple of related topics that have generated buzz around here lately. First, given the direction of the book since he took over, would Reggie Hudlin be considered a racist? This discussion began here and quickly derailed the thread. It's quite long and I won't repost it, but you should read it. I'll just say that I was one of maybe three people that said no.
Second, are the Wakandans really mass murderers for refusing to share their advanced technology and knowledge with the rest of the world? That one started here, in the new Civil War thread, citing the current run's assertion that the Wakandans have the cure for cancer. Again, I say no, due to cultural and political implications.
So what do you think? Also, Hudlin's Black Panther: great Black Panther, or greatest Black Panther?
Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy TallahasseeWhen he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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I swear, sometimes I think you guys don't want to give the book a chance at all, despite the fact that the post wedding issues have been the best of the run. How many of you even read the book and know what you're criticizing?
There's been no indication of any plans she may have as a figurehead, and at best she's being portrayed as the woman behind the powerful man (convincing T'Challa to get on board isn't much of a contribution since it makes it clear that T'Challa is the one with the power). Furthermore, in situations where BP and Storm have gone to visit rulers as representatives of Wakanda it is always BP who does the majority of discussion and action.
And I hated Hudlin's portrayal of Monica Rambeau as child in need of a lecture from the magnificent Black Panther on how to use her own powers to beat vampires, as if she hasn't shown herself to be a capable fighter and strategist on numerous occasions. This is in addition to showing the most ineffective iteration of the X-Men yet (with Iceman getting crapped on for the second time since HoM), making a new Black Knight who is a racist zealot, turning the Inhumans into slave owners again just so Black Bolt can reject slavery a second time, transforming Doom into a villain who intimidates through dated pop culture references and racism rather than sheer power and grandeur, douching P.Diddy for some reason, and using all of this to elevate Black Panther in the process.
I have not read much BP, but from what ive heard from people I can say that I probably would not like it and would probably even find it offensive.
Monica Ranbeau as in the same one from NextWave? What, are they trying to cram every black character ever into one book?
I still find it offensive that Storm is all married to T'Challa for the simple reason that at the time they were pretty much the only two characters of african descent and mixed race marriage was too heretical.
Was the fake Black Knight a racist? I rather thought he was a religious zealot for the Church.
I do believe you're blowing those other complaints out of proportion, with the possible exception of Monica. Even then, wasn't she in some kind of funk at the time, unconfident about her powers? What's wrong with a little encouragement from someone she looks up to? And Storm is coming into her own in the series since the wedding issue, at least in my opinion.
So are you saying you have nothing to add to the thread but your opinion on other people's opinions?
I threw in that question just to get it out of the way. Knowing the circular nature of the conversation around here, I figure it'll come back up again anyway.
That was the "BlacK Avengers" arc, and I thought it was pretty cool.
The fun thing about this argument is that Hudlin is criticized for this decision when he wasn't even the first person to come up with it. I can't recall exactly how much he talked with Priest about what he never got to do with BP, but I do know that Priest had planned to hook up Storm and T'Challa. The editors at Marvel had to have known about this plan, so I don't think you can lay this "gimmick" at Hudlin's feet so sanctimoniously. A more fair criticism is that it was rushed, and the Storm retcon miniseries a bit too obvious. Given another arc or two with their relationship developing, there might not be so much bellyaching.
I have to admit, though, that as a black guy who is a fan of Storm and BP, I thought it was pretty cool that they got together.
That doesn't make it less dumb.
The way it was rushed and that they just sort of retconned BP into Storm's life was dumb.
He may have been acting with the hopes of eventually converting all the Wakandans to Christianity (at least in death), but the idea that the Africans are in particular need of saving and can only be converted through violence and forced conversion rather than mere conversation is still racist.
If Monica was ever in a funk, it must have been during her appearance in New Thunderbolts because the Black Avengers storyline depicts BP expressing confusion over what her codename was at the time. She was Photon before then and, afterwards, just Monica and kicking ass.
It wasn't just encouragement. Panther told her she was using her powers wrong and not exploring them to their full potential, that being using them to create Ultraviolet Radiation. It doesn't matter if he did so in a compassionate fashion, because in any case she was still shown as someone who didn't really know how to use her abilities despite being a higher ranking Avenger than Panther had ever been.
Meanwhile, I think the fact that Panther managed to single-handedly beat the X-Men, then order them around in a condescending fashion, then insult them to Storm and have her no be offended, and then save them and Wolverine is enough to justify my opinion that other characters are being shown in a negative light to help make Black Panther seem stronger.
And yes, Monica's loss of confidence is apparently something Hudlin made up specifically for the Black Avengers storyline. I found her appearance in New Thunderbolts and she's happy as hell, and in terms of continuity that's her most recent appearance prior to the Black Panther storyline.
That is all I have to say.
I heard him described as a black captain america except with vibranium claws.
House Party?
It'll be a lot better if you avoid adding any trolling retardedness to the mix. Fuck, too late...
Lightbringer, regarding T'Challa's powers:
So far, his victories almost always have something to do with the tech he has. He can fight and all, but there's no way he can overpower too many people. He did manage to put the beatdown on Batroc, but I dunno if that's necessarily that awesome. He also temporarily slowed down Iron Man with the Ebony Blade (which had been appropriated from the imposter Black Knight), though it was pretty apparent that, had Rhodey not stopped the fight, he would've gone down. I'm actually really sorta surprised at the charge that BP is beating people he shouldn't because I can't think of anyone he's fought that should walk all over him. With Storm on his side now, I'd say that he's able to take on even more powerful people.
Mask, why do you do this to yourself? Are you some sort of crazy sadomasochist?
To be fair, I think Kirby and Lee started Wakanda as being super high tech and stuff. Maybe not as super as it's become but still pretty high.
And it doesn't matter because Atlantis could take them out in a second, along with the rest of the world
And, incidentally, I keep reading the book because I like BP and I like what Hudlin is doing with the character. I wouldn't waste my time or money otherwise.
BEAT YOU
AND I DON'T EVEN LIKE THE CURRENT SERIES
HA
It becomes Mary Sue territory in my mind when they go overboard talking about how freaking awesome it is and how everyone else is a retarded infant culture. You can have super advanced places as much as you want, but they're generally above talking about how primitive the main culture is. In the cases where they talk down on the other culture is when they're the bad guy or we're not supposed to relate to them. We are supposed to relate to the Black Panther.
And with "why do you do this to yourself" I meant set yourself up to be attacked by everyone. You can read and enjoy whatever you like! I'm glad you like the current Black Panther because it makes your comics experience that much better. More power to Hudlin for connecting with you!
Again, this was done prior to Hudlin as well. And I think it's pretty fair to say that most of this "outsiders suck" mentality is reflected in T'Challa's advisors and ruling council, not him. We should expect as much from people who grew up thinking Wakanada was the shit and never really left the country. As for relating to him, I think we can to an extent, but since Hudlin is really playing up the fact that he's the ruler of a major nation, there seems to be less to relate to.
I like the book enough that I want to defend it when I feel people aren't giving it a fair shake. I've been online too long to be bothered by anyone attacking my views.
You're thinking of Fantastic Four #546. And that's a question for Dwayne McDuffie. I'd like to think that T'Challa wouldn't fight Silver Surfer unless it was desparate.
Actually, it's based of an idiotic comment from the main BP comic that T'Challa inexplicably has a contingency plan for Galactus.
For Galactus.
No entity had ever challenged Galactus before Reed Richards, and Richards only succeeded because the Watcher broke his oath and told Richards about the Ultimate Nullifier. Given that we now know that the UN is actually a part of Galactus - and has now been re-absorbed - what could T'Challa's plan possibly be?
It's just stupid. It's awful writing. The only "contingency plan" for Galactus is to get the hell out of dodge and find a new planet.
Also, before people start bitching about Hudlin, note that this contingency plan was mentioned in Priest's run. I'd like to see what McDuffie and Hudlin do with it (if they do anything with it at all).
Reed wasn't kidding when he said that he could spend his entire life studying even the most rudimentary devices on Taa 2 during the first Galactus arc.
EDIT: No, actually, make that DEVICE. Singular. Reed could spend his entire life studying even the absolute most rudimentary device on Taa 2 and still not figure out a whole lot about it.
The fact that anyone, anyone at all from earth who is not the Sentry could even hope to stand up to Galactus is completly ridiculous. To even fight him to a stalemate you would need either the power of a million exploding suns or the Ultimate Nullifier and the help of the Silver Surfer and the Watcher, as well as the single most giant brain on earth, namely that of Reed Richards.
Or Doctor Doom. You need the Sentry, Reed, the Surfer and the Watcher, or Doctor Doom. That is it. That is precisely it. Those three things.
Black Panther has none of those. Therefore his contingency plans are gauranteed to fail. Anything else is bad writing. It's preposterous.
The problem people have with Hudlin's Black Panther is exactly that: It is bad, bad, shameful writing. It mischaracterizes almost every single person appearing in the series. Doom a rascist? Since when? Does Hudlin even know WHY Doom is Doctor Doom? Eveidently not! Seeing as Doom is a gypsy who became who he is largely because of the prejudice his people suffered. Shit, even when interacting with Luke Cage in the past did Doom display no rascist tones like he did in Hudlin's BP run.
Storm is okay with BP having a harem? What? That's retarded!
Namor politely asking BP to join a coalition against Registration? WHAT? Namor is king of seventy per cent of the entire planet! Wakandan tech is child-like compared to Atlantean stuff! Everybody from Atlantis can beat up a tank with their bare hands! Namor doesn't give a shit about diplomacy OR registration! He's fucking NAMOR! Imperius REX! He doesn't care about tact or whatever, by virtue of him having the largest, most advanced and most powerful army in the entire world he has a ton more political influence than BP. He wouldn't ask for diplomatic measures, he'd set an ultimatum. He doesn't need allies! He outnumbers almost every major country on earth put together!
(i don't know if Strange has tried before, so don't bite my head off if he has and failed miserably. I'm just going by powersets)
PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
But yeah, Black Panther? No.
And Panther has the potential to do limitless good with the newly acquired power cosmic, but instead relinquishes all of it conditional upon a peace treaty and then says that "no man should have that much power" or "it'd be foolhardy for one man to affect that much change in the universe, when growth and development is the responsibility of an entire population rather than just one king". Probably the latter, as it doubles as justification for T'Challa's position of non-intervention when it comes to the rest of Africa and the world.
*Uneducated being a statement on the fact that it seems Hudlin has done very little research on how T'Challa's real life counterparts, namely African monarchy and non-African kings and leaders, conduct themselves, not an allegation that Hudlin isn't very smart in general. Namely, in regards to Black Panther's semi-frequent uses of American phrases and even pop culture despite a near total rejection of Western society, decidedly undiplomatic conduct when venturing overseas, and a tendency to take charge of any situation (even in the presence of more capable leaders, like Monica Rambeau) though that runs against a position of non-intervention which you'd think would at least require him to reduce his presence if not outright conceal his actions when super-heroing abroad.
It doesn't exactly make sense for T'Challa to ignore problems in Africa and then go on to fight vampires in New Orleans, least of all when vampires can be dealt with by almost anyone while AIDs is really more of a job for Black Panther than anything else out there.
Since you have such intimate knowledge of BP's contingency plan, I'd love to hear all about it. As far as I know, it was only tangentially mentioned in the previous BP run. But, you know, thanks for your vastly uninformed opinion based on a comment that wasn't expounded upon in any detail that could give your opinion any weight.
Sigh...this again. Being the subject of racism and oppression doesn't preclude one from, in turn, being racist. But thanks for trying to imply that.
BP has a harem? I've read every issue of the current run and I haven't seen it.
A few things here. First, Namor is seen as a villain by most of the world, so the idea that he has any political influence that doesn't involve threatening people with violence is retarded. For the moment, at least, BP and Storm are pretty popular around the world, so having them front the coalition is a smart thing to do. Wouldn't people react better to the Avengers with Cap at the lead instead of Wolverine? It's the same thing here.
Second, why is Namor supposed to be above politicking or having political machinations? Or even approaching a problem without resorting to punching stuff first? That's what he's doing in New Avengers:Illuminati, but I don't see you bitching about that.
Third, why wouldn't he be concerned about SHIELD raising a superhero army? Do you think the surface world will take his inevitable future invasion lightly when they have that at their disposal? Shit, do you think they'll even wait for that to happen and instead just pre-emptively strike? These are the sorts of things to consider when you're the ruler of a nation.
In the end, I wonder why you can't be open to the idea that there are some things about these characters that you haven't seen yet. I guess if Namor isn't mindlessly punching shit while leading an army out of the sea, he's just out of character.
And being the victim of racism on the grounds of being genetically inferior, on top of being a brilliant scientist who knows enough about human biology to know how to negate an innate characteristic like mutant powers, precludes one from believing that Africans are genetically inferior in regards to their mental abilities. It's not just that Doom was behaving like a racist, but rather that he subscribed to the very same racist notions that were
a) Directed at his people.
b) The very same notions that a basic knowledge of the human body, which Doom certainly has, would dispel.
Doom wouldn't claim that Africans were naturally less mentally capable than Caucasians if he knew this for a fact, which he clearly doesn't since it isn't true. If he was going to cut Black Panther with racist remarks, surely he'd use ones that cannot be so easily dismissed since those would have actually had an affect on the man.