Well, compared to, say...Heroic Deadmines at launch or a full clear of HoO, yeah, MgT is "short".
And honestly, compared to other TBC dungeons, it wasn't even up there as the longest compared to Shadow Labs or SH. MgT wasn't that bad at all. It was more "right" IMO than any of the cata heroics at launch as far as time vs difficulty vs reward. But that could just be time making me remember poorly.
I enjoyed the fact that the Cata heroics often required things like CC. The AoE fests of WOTLK were boring as fuck.
I think Blizzard should have made the Cata heroics even shorter. Very few pulls, put each pull is harder.
I did too, but every one was just too much. The cata heroics just never. fucking. ended. If they had made sections of various ones have a high challenge requiring proper CC and difficult boss mechanics, but left the rest mostly tame WotLK style stuff, it wouldn't have been that bad. But virtually every boss and half the trash pulls of each instance could easily result in a wipe with an average lfd pug and it just made instances that were already longer than most of the WotLK ones take considerably longer because it was just wipewipewipewipe.
But they still haven't figured out proper balance in where to put content in dungeons if DS is any indication. It takes easily twice as long to do the first 4 as it does the last four, at least in LFR. The warlord and slime boss have too much trash with too much health that do absolutely nothing except take up time. And to make it worse, the fucking slime trash seems to be more difficult for your average lfr than the bosses themselves and I can count on one hand how many LFR groups I've been in that didn't wipe on the first slime trash (due to pulling both groups every fucking time. Then Hagara with her gauntlet of trash, which, honestly isn't that bad, but it all adds up to Siege taking ~2hrs easily every time, whereas madness can be done in well under an hour without wipes.
It's not balanced at all. If we have to waste our time with stupid trash in raids, 7 years later, at least balance that shit out so it's not so front loaded or feeling like between certain bosses is just the biggest damn chore in history. Which is weird because they did it pretty damn well in ICC; though personally I'm quite the fan of ToGC style no-trash raids, because, seriously what is the fucking point? Do they really need a place to dump some BoE's that bad?
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
MgT was short by BC standards, and really by wrath standards too in terms of number of mobs. The first boss had like five trash pulls before him; vexallus just had the mana worm room, then two more robots and two blood elf packs to get to arena boss, then one more trash pack before kael'thas. Some of the cata heroics were similar in length, but I don't think any were shorter (maybe throne of the tides, if you skipped bosses.)
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
and I mean, trash in dragon soul is too onerous? really?
slimeguy has like, six short trash pulls in his room. Zon'ozz has three (granted they're kind of annoying, but still.) Hagera has four quick pulls and the little miniboss guy. ultraxion trash is irritating but it takes literally four minutes and you're done, and then there's no trash at all the rest of the way.
that's like, nothing compared to the endless pile of pointless mobs in icc.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Here's a thought I've been having:
The modern day Azeroth is a pretty boring place, comparatively. Take the Well of Eternity instance from the latest patch. Place is full of demons, they're invading the world, shit is epic and busted. Then take the actual world. Nothing super interesting going on, bandits and nagas and sometimes some faction rivalry, bloop bleep. I really wish that sooner or later they'll properly apocalyptise WoW. I mean, hell, even if they won't do it to current WoW, it'd be interesting if WoW2 took place in an Azeroth that is overrun by demons because the Well of Eternity has a really good thing going for it and I'd like to see that spread out over the entire world.
and I mean, trash in dragon soul is too onerous? really?
slimeguy has like, six short trash pulls in his room. Zon'ozz has three (granted they're kind of annoying, but still.) Hagera has four quick pulls and the little miniboss guy. ultraxion trash is irritating but it takes literally four minutes and you're done, and then there's no trash at all the rest of the way.
that's like, nothing compared to the endless pile of pointless mobs in icc.
Ultraxion.
Edited: Oh, right; didn't see that in your post. Sorry about that.
Part of me wants to take vicious vengeance upon the sick and twisted individual who gave us Hyjal trash, the ICC spider room, and Ultraxion.
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
I enjoyed the fact that the Cata heroics often required things like CC. The AoE fests of WOTLK were boring as fuck.
I think Blizzard should have made the Cata heroics even shorter. Very few pulls, put each pull is harder.
I did too, but every one was just too much. The cata heroics just never. fucking. ended. If they had made sections of various ones have a high challenge requiring proper CC and difficult boss mechanics, but left the rest mostly tame WotLK style stuff, it wouldn't have been that bad. But virtually every boss and half the trash pulls of each instance could easily result in a wipe with an average lfd pug and it just made instances that were already longer than most of the WotLK ones take considerably longer because it was just wipewipewipewipe.
But they still haven't figured out proper balance in where to put content in dungeons if DS is any indication. It takes easily twice as long to do the first 4 as it does the last four, at least in LFR. The warlord and slime boss have too much trash with too much health that do absolutely nothing except take up time. And to make it worse, the fucking slime trash seems to be more difficult for your average lfr than the bosses themselves and I can count on one hand how many LFR groups I've been in that didn't wipe on the first slime trash (due to pulling both groups every fucking time. Then Hagara with her gauntlet of trash, which, honestly isn't that bad, but it all adds up to Siege taking ~2hrs easily every time, whereas madness can be done in well under an hour without wipes.
It's not balanced at all. If we have to waste our time with stupid trash in raids, 7 years later, at least balance that shit out so it's not so front loaded or feeling like between certain bosses is just the biggest damn chore in history. Which is weird because they did it pretty damn well in ICC; though personally I'm quite the fan of ToGC style no-trash raids, because, seriously what is the fucking point? Do they really need a place to dump some BoE's that bad?
The key, imo, is just less fucking pulls and less bosses (at least in Heroics).
3-4 bosses is perfect. Anything more then like 3 pulls between each boss is too much as well imo. Just make each pull more interesting. Make the trash require some CC and a bit of strategy. But just make the number of pulls small so it doesn't get laborious. Lots of pulls feels like a slog, even if they are easy. Fewer more interesting pulls is better imo.
Think something like the top floor of HoO. But, you know, with less lazy architecture. Or like BWD. Again, with less lazy architecture. And less fucking dwarves.
Have 2-3 pulls that resemble the boss thematically and mechanically and then boss. Mix it up with some interesting stuff like gauntlets and the like, but stick to that formula. The bosses are the highlight of instancing, focus on them.
and I mean, trash in dragon soul is too onerous? really?
slimeguy has like, six short trash pulls in his room. Zon'ozz has three (granted they're kind of annoying, but still.) Hagera has four quick pulls and the little miniboss guy. ultraxion trash is irritating but it takes literally four minutes and you're done, and then there's no trash at all the rest of the way.
that's like, nothing compared to the endless pile of pointless mobs in icc.
The spider room didn't actually take very long unless your raid was full of idiots. But I don't support it. It was, however, considerably less annoying than DS trash.
However, I just want to say, as I said in my post, that I'm against trash in raids altogether. It's stupid, a straight up pure time sink that isn't even embarrassed about what it is, and is insulting.
The only good reason in any situation for "trash" is if you need to teach a mechanic for a boss; and even then it's probably the least elegant solution. In DS the only trash that teaches the boss mechanics is the slime trash, and after a pack or two, you get the point; there's like 7 packs. They're not "hard" except for, again, idiots, they simply take up time and the entire thing is stupid.
It's fine and dandy that someone might be ok with pointless trash, but don't act all "shocked" that someone who doesn't like having absurd amounts of their time wasted when they play, doesn't like having something that is purely to waste said time right there. You don't mind wasting your own time; fine.
But there is no point to it and in every instance of trash in DS, the trash itself takes at least twice as long to kill than the boss itself, which is, again, stupid and insulting. At least they could try to pretend the trash is there for a reason. Hagara trash is the least offensive trash in DS because it makes sense given the encounter. The rest? No.
Have 2-3 pulls that resemble the boss thematically and mechanically and then boss.
That's a pretty good idea. Have each trash pack have it's own "mini-boss" (not necessarily a named dude, but obviously a tougher dude than the rest) who does a thing. Like one mini-boss might do a big AoE attack, another might spew poison clouds all over the place, and one might cast a nasty debuff on one dude at a time, and then when you get to the boss he does all those things.
The idea that the trash should teach you how to fight the boss is a great one. But blizzard is terrible at teaching people to play their games. I predict they'll continue to be terrible at it in the future.
The idea that the trash should teach you how to fight the boss is a great one. But blizzard is terrible at teaching people to play their games. I predict they'll continue to be terrible at it in the future.
Blizzard already does this with trash in some places.
And WoW is as good as any other MMO I've ever seen in teaching you how to play.
Yeah, if you're wiping on the initial Cata heroics with well-geared people, someone is doing something very fucking wrong.
Sadly, that was a regular occurrence before 4.3. Corla's beams, Deadmines robot, Stonecore Golem boss's instakill stomp, nearly every Cata heroic had a 'fuck this up and it's a wipe' mechanic, and that (as Blizzard has learned) is a bad thing to combo with the general population of this game.
Cata's heroics can get impaled on a white-hot pike through the ass and out the mouth, forever. I hope that style stays dead and buried, if for no other reason than that no matter how good you may be, it doesn't mean shit when you have to deal with the successes and failures of four other people.
Also, 'slow, deliberately longer heroics' is a bad idea when heroics are the sole means of generating the currency for your gear-driven, currency-based game. Fun the first few times, slogging hell the other several dozen. This may even out in MoP now that questing will (fucking finally) award said points, but my guess is that we'll see something in between the ICC 5s and 4.3's 5s in terms of difficulty.
This may even out in MoP now that questing will (fucking finally) award said points, but my guess is that we'll see something in between the ICC 5s and 4.3's 5s in terms of difficulty.
Oh, H-HoR... getting that for our post raid cleave-group is still one of my all time favorite Warcraft moments.
Yeah, if you're wiping on the initial Cata heroics with well-geared people, someone is doing something very fucking wrong.
Sadly, that was a regular occurrence before 4.3. Corla's beams, Deadmines robot, Stonecore Golem boss's instakill stomp, nearly every Cata heroic had a 'fuck this up and it's a wipe' mechanic, and that (as Blizzard has learned) is a bad thing to combo with the general population of this game.
Sure, those caused occasional wipes, but not really constant wipefests after getting past the first months of gearing up.
Corla's mostly an explanation thing and convincing people that looking at their debuff stacks is the #1 most important task ahead of DPS.
mgt was frustrating as fuck because it had delrissa. absolute zero fun fight. oh your healer is a priest and they just got instagibbed by the warrior. awesome! at least doing the instance as shadow was fun because you could do a ton of dps by mind controlling the warlocks. shadow lab had that going too where you could MC the shadow priests and do about 3500 dps with their sw:p and mind flay that ticked for 2800 damage. the only BC heroics I remember being out of line were the hellfire ones and arcatraz. Stuff in the bloodforge hit so hard
cata heroics were(are) just stupid. instances should either be hard or long, not both.
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
Well, you did say it wasn't short by any description, and I provided a description where it was short.
The only long period of pulls in MgT was between the elemental boss and the arena boss, and that was what, 6? 7? pulls where 3 of them didn't need any CC.
Granted, it wasn't a 10 minute heroic like AN, but I'd bet people would jump for a shot to get a heroic like that over one of the cata launch heroics.
mgt was frustrating as fuck because it had delrissa. absolute zero fun fight. oh your healer is a priest and they just got instagibbed by the warrior. awesome! at least doing the instance as shadow was fun because you could do a ton of dps by mind controlling the warlocks. shadow lab had that going too where you could MC the shadow priests and do about 3500 dps with their sw:p and mind flay that ticked for 2800 damage. the only BC heroics I remember being out of line were the hellfire ones and arcatraz. Stuff in the bloodforge hit so hard
cata heroics were(are) just stupid. instances should either be hard or long, not both.
Delrissa wasn't that bad in the long run, just make sure to look down while you are first in the instance and see what she has. If there's a bad combo, run out and reset, then go back in and check again.
Corla's beams are really the only ones that cause any issue, assuming you don't tell your groupmates basic things. Ozruk's stomp was nerfed a LONG time ago, and has been pathetically easy to get out of since like 4.1 . SFK had the first boss as a major stumbling block until they took away his heal (I think this was between 4.1 and 4.2? Maybe even earlier) and made tank interrupts not missable. Heroics have been nerfed a ton in general.
So yeah, I stand by my statement that if someone is wiping a lot in them in current-day gear, then someone in their group is fucking up - big time. Most of the bosses and trash can just be steamrolled, and if people don't grasp the basic mechanics of this shit after earning all that gear, then they get no sympathy from me.
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
Well, you did say it wasn't short by any description, and I provided a description where it was short.
The only long period of pulls in MgT was between the elemental boss and the arena boss, and that was what, 6? 7? pulls where 3 of them didn't need any CC.
Granted, it wasn't a 10 minute heroic like AN, but I'd bet people would jump for a shot to get a heroic like that over one of the cata launch heroics.
No, you provided a comparison where it was the shorter of the options you included. It doesn't matter if it's shorter then something else, it's still not short. 6-7 pulls is a bunch.
I still wonder why they didn't split HoO into two seperate dungeons, with the second floor being its own dungeon. Anyone with half a brain could have seen with the LFD system people would skip almost all of the bosses to get the VP reward from the endboss.
Okay, this has been driving me crazy. I'm looking for an addon that will display my Rage bar (or hell, any resource bar for that matter) seperate from my unit frame. Something that I can resize and put anywhere on the screen. I don't want a unitframe addon, just the resource bar. I know something like this exists but for the life of me I can't find anything worthwhile. I found this one but apparently it spams the chat window and is not very good.
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
Well, you did say it wasn't short by any description, and I provided a description where it was short.
The only long period of pulls in MgT was between the elemental boss and the arena boss, and that was what, 6? 7? pulls where 3 of them didn't need any CC.
Granted, it wasn't a 10 minute heroic like AN, but I'd bet people would jump for a shot to get a heroic like that over one of the cata launch heroics.
No, you provided a comparison where it was the shorter of the options you included. It doesn't matter if it's shorter then something else, it's still not short. 6-7 pulls is a bunch.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then as I'm looking at time investment, not total number of pulls. A 30 minute dungeon, by my definition, is short.
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
Well, you did say it wasn't short by any description, and I provided a description where it was short.
The only long period of pulls in MgT was between the elemental boss and the arena boss, and that was what, 6? 7? pulls where 3 of them didn't need any CC.
Granted, it wasn't a 10 minute heroic like AN, but I'd bet people would jump for a shot to get a heroic like that over one of the cata launch heroics.
No, you provided a comparison where it was the shorter of the options you included. It doesn't matter if it's shorter then something else, it's still not short. 6-7 pulls is a bunch.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then as I'm looking at time investment, not total number of pulls. A 30 minute dungeon, by my definition, is short.
30 minutes is pushing it. Especially 30 minutes of alot of pulls. Because it's not just about time, but about feel. I could blow through WOTLK heroics in like 20 minutes back during the ICC days. They still felt like a slog because they were dull and what we were doing wasn't interesting.
Make instances shorter and more interesting. And that means way fewer but more involving pulls.
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
Well, you did say it wasn't short by any description, and I provided a description where it was short.
The only long period of pulls in MgT was between the elemental boss and the arena boss, and that was what, 6? 7? pulls where 3 of them didn't need any CC.
Granted, it wasn't a 10 minute heroic like AN, but I'd bet people would jump for a shot to get a heroic like that over one of the cata launch heroics.
No, you provided a comparison where it was the shorter of the options you included. It doesn't matter if it's shorter then something else, it's still not short. 6-7 pulls is a bunch.
I guess we'll just have to disagree then as I'm looking at time investment, not total number of pulls. A 30 minute dungeon, by my definition, is short.
30 minutes is pushing it. Especially 30 minutes of alot of pulls. Because it's not just about time, but about feel. I could blow through WOTLK heroics in like 20 minutes back during the ICC days. They still felt like a slog because they were dull and what we were doing wasn't interesting.
Make instances shorter and more interesting. And that means way fewer but more involving pulls.
Shit, there were WotLK heroics where you could kill the first boss with Bloodlust, and still be sated for the last one.
Extra loot on a timer for every instance? Not necessarily like Zul'Aman, but perhaps like heroic Shattered Halls?
Speaking of instance length, they gave you 55 minutes to get to the Executioner for the Trials of the Naaru quest there. And that wasn't 55 minutes from start to end, that was 55 minutes starting from just after the first boss.
alternatively, it spawns a rogue that immediately buttfucks your healer
oh wait, they did that
in the same instance
Anyway I have always thought MrT should be a baseline for their five mans. There wasn't that much trash, it was mildly interesting and even when you outgeared it you had to sort of pretend to do it correctly.
I have no idea what they were thinking with grim batol. The drake riding mechanic is cool, but having even one person that doesn't know what to do or fails at it or whatever turns that instance into an abysmal slog
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Extra loot on a timer for every instance? Not necessarily like Zul'Aman, but perhaps like heroic Shattered Halls?
Speaking of instance length, they gave you 55 minutes to get to the Executioner for the Trials of the Naaru quest there. And that wasn't 55 minutes from start to end, that was 55 minutes starting from just after the first boss.
it sounds like this is kind of a thing that's happening in MoP with challenge settings, and I'm pretty excited about it. Even dull repetitive content becomes kind of fun when you're trying to see how fast you can do it
we used to have a raidwide 10 dkp bonus for clearing supremus trash in less than 20 minutes and it actually made it kind of entertaining
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Raid Finder class composition at 3AM on a Sunday morning. Wiped twice to Ultraxion, people getting one-shot because other tank wouldn't taunt off my Fading Light, healers not getting their buffs, hitting Berserk timer both times, and then I stepped out.
Okay, this has been driving me crazy. I'm looking for an addon that will display my Rage bar (or hell, any resource bar for that matter) seperate from my unit frame. Something that I can resize and put anywhere on the screen. I don't want a unitframe addon, just the resource bar. I know something like this exists but for the life of me I can't find anything worthwhile. I found this one but apparently it spams the chat window and is not very good.
Try IceHUD, I use that.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
So my guild on Dark Iron has decided to server transfer with.. 22 of their raiders. I'm not sure what to say to that. (I'm not one of the 22)
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And honestly, compared to other TBC dungeons, it wasn't even up there as the longest compared to Shadow Labs or SH. MgT wasn't that bad at all. It was more "right" IMO than any of the cata heroics at launch as far as time vs difficulty vs reward. But that could just be time making me remember poorly.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I did too, but every one was just too much. The cata heroics just never. fucking. ended. If they had made sections of various ones have a high challenge requiring proper CC and difficult boss mechanics, but left the rest mostly tame WotLK style stuff, it wouldn't have been that bad. But virtually every boss and half the trash pulls of each instance could easily result in a wipe with an average lfd pug and it just made instances that were already longer than most of the WotLK ones take considerably longer because it was just wipewipewipewipe.
But they still haven't figured out proper balance in where to put content in dungeons if DS is any indication. It takes easily twice as long to do the first 4 as it does the last four, at least in LFR. The warlord and slime boss have too much trash with too much health that do absolutely nothing except take up time. And to make it worse, the fucking slime trash seems to be more difficult for your average lfr than the bosses themselves and I can count on one hand how many LFR groups I've been in that didn't wipe on the first slime trash (due to pulling both groups every fucking time. Then Hagara with her gauntlet of trash, which, honestly isn't that bad, but it all adds up to Siege taking ~2hrs easily every time, whereas madness can be done in well under an hour without wipes.
It's not balanced at all. If we have to waste our time with stupid trash in raids, 7 years later, at least balance that shit out so it's not so front loaded or feeling like between certain bosses is just the biggest damn chore in history. Which is weird because they did it pretty damn well in ICC; though personally I'm quite the fan of ToGC style no-trash raids, because, seriously what is the fucking point? Do they really need a place to dump some BoE's that bad?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Compared to the Cata launch Heroics? yes, yes it was. You could do the entire thing in maybe 30 minutes if everybody knew what they were doing. I usually had to look at budgeting 45 minutes - an hour for cata launch heroics (if not longer given Deadmines or Grim Batol).
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
slimeguy has like, six short trash pulls in his room. Zon'ozz has three (granted they're kind of annoying, but still.) Hagera has four quick pulls and the little miniboss guy. ultraxion trash is irritating but it takes literally four minutes and you're done, and then there's no trash at all the rest of the way.
that's like, nothing compared to the endless pile of pointless mobs in icc.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The modern day Azeroth is a pretty boring place, comparatively. Take the Well of Eternity instance from the latest patch. Place is full of demons, they're invading the world, shit is epic and busted. Then take the actual world. Nothing super interesting going on, bandits and nagas and sometimes some faction rivalry, bloop bleep. I really wish that sooner or later they'll properly apocalyptise WoW. I mean, hell, even if they won't do it to current WoW, it'd be interesting if WoW2 took place in an Azeroth that is overrun by demons because the Well of Eternity has a really good thing going for it and I'd like to see that spread out over the entire world.
Ultraxion.
Edited: Oh, right; didn't see that in your post. Sorry about that.
Part of me wants to take vicious vengeance upon the sick and twisted individual who gave us Hyjal trash, the ICC spider room, and Ultraxion.
Yes, but who gives a shit if it was short compared to Deadmines or fucking Shadowlabs.
MgT was still too long. Lots of pulls in that place. It was on the better side of length though.
The key, imo, is just less fucking pulls and less bosses (at least in Heroics).
3-4 bosses is perfect. Anything more then like 3 pulls between each boss is too much as well imo. Just make each pull more interesting. Make the trash require some CC and a bit of strategy. But just make the number of pulls small so it doesn't get laborious. Lots of pulls feels like a slog, even if they are easy. Fewer more interesting pulls is better imo.
Think something like the top floor of HoO. But, you know, with less lazy architecture. Or like BWD. Again, with less lazy architecture. And less fucking dwarves.
Have 2-3 pulls that resemble the boss thematically and mechanically and then boss. Mix it up with some interesting stuff like gauntlets and the like, but stick to that formula. The bosses are the highlight of instancing, focus on them.
The spider room didn't actually take very long unless your raid was full of idiots. But I don't support it. It was, however, considerably less annoying than DS trash.
However, I just want to say, as I said in my post, that I'm against trash in raids altogether. It's stupid, a straight up pure time sink that isn't even embarrassed about what it is, and is insulting.
The only good reason in any situation for "trash" is if you need to teach a mechanic for a boss; and even then it's probably the least elegant solution. In DS the only trash that teaches the boss mechanics is the slime trash, and after a pack or two, you get the point; there's like 7 packs. They're not "hard" except for, again, idiots, they simply take up time and the entire thing is stupid.
It's fine and dandy that someone might be ok with pointless trash, but don't act all "shocked" that someone who doesn't like having absurd amounts of their time wasted when they play, doesn't like having something that is purely to waste said time right there. You don't mind wasting your own time; fine.
But there is no point to it and in every instance of trash in DS, the trash itself takes at least twice as long to kill than the boss itself, which is, again, stupid and insulting. At least they could try to pretend the trash is there for a reason. Hagara trash is the least offensive trash in DS because it makes sense given the encounter. The rest? No.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
That's a pretty good idea. Have each trash pack have it's own "mini-boss" (not necessarily a named dude, but obviously a tougher dude than the rest) who does a thing. Like one mini-boss might do a big AoE attack, another might spew poison clouds all over the place, and one might cast a nasty debuff on one dude at a time, and then when you get to the boss he does all those things.
0431-6094-6446-7088
Blizzard already does this with trash in some places.
And WoW is as good as any other MMO I've ever seen in teaching you how to play.
They are?
I was chainrunning LFD dungeons all the time before LFR (and before TOR) and I don't recall that many wipefests at all.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Cata's heroics can get impaled on a white-hot pike through the ass and out the mouth, forever. I hope that style stays dead and buried, if for no other reason than that no matter how good you may be, it doesn't mean shit when you have to deal with the successes and failures of four other people.
Also, 'slow, deliberately longer heroics' is a bad idea when heroics are the sole means of generating the currency for your gear-driven, currency-based game. Fun the first few times, slogging hell the other several dozen. This may even out in MoP now that questing will (fucking finally) award said points, but my guess is that we'll see something in between the ICC 5s and 4.3's 5s in terms of difficulty.
Oh, H-HoR... getting that for our post raid cleave-group is still one of my all time favorite Warcraft moments.
Sure, those caused occasional wipes, but not really constant wipefests after getting past the first months of gearing up.
Corla's mostly an explanation thing and convincing people that looking at their debuff stacks is the #1 most important task ahead of DPS.
cata heroics were(are) just stupid. instances should either be hard or long, not both.
Well, you did say it wasn't short by any description, and I provided a description where it was short.
The only long period of pulls in MgT was between the elemental boss and the arena boss, and that was what, 6? 7? pulls where 3 of them didn't need any CC.
Granted, it wasn't a 10 minute heroic like AN, but I'd bet people would jump for a shot to get a heroic like that over one of the cata launch heroics.
Delrissa wasn't that bad in the long run, just make sure to look down while you are first in the instance and see what she has. If there's a bad combo, run out and reset, then go back in and check again.
So yeah, I stand by my statement that if someone is wiping a lot in them in current-day gear, then someone in their group is fucking up - big time. Most of the bosses and trash can just be steamrolled, and if people don't grasp the basic mechanics of this shit after earning all that gear, then they get no sympathy from me.
/bittervet
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
No, you provided a comparison where it was the shorter of the options you included. It doesn't matter if it's shorter then something else, it's still not short. 6-7 pulls is a bunch.
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I guess we'll just have to disagree then as I'm looking at time investment, not total number of pulls. A 30 minute dungeon, by my definition, is short.
30 minutes is pushing it. Especially 30 minutes of alot of pulls. Because it's not just about time, but about feel. I could blow through WOTLK heroics in like 20 minutes back during the ICC days. They still felt like a slog because they were dull and what we were doing wasn't interesting.
Make instances shorter and more interesting. And that means way fewer but more involving pulls.
Shit, there were WotLK heroics where you could kill the first boss with Bloodlust, and still be sated for the last one.
I got it: every pull has mind control
Speaking of instance length, they gave you 55 minutes to get to the Executioner for the Trials of the Naaru quest there. And that wasn't 55 minutes from start to end, that was 55 minutes starting from just after the first boss.
TIME FOR FUN!
oh wait, they did that
in the same instance
Anyway I have always thought MrT should be a baseline for their five mans. There wasn't that much trash, it was mildly interesting and even when you outgeared it you had to sort of pretend to do it correctly.
I have no idea what they were thinking with grim batol. The drake riding mechanic is cool, but having even one person that doesn't know what to do or fails at it or whatever turns that instance into an abysmal slog
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
it sounds like this is kind of a thing that's happening in MoP with challenge settings, and I'm pretty excited about it. Even dull repetitive content becomes kind of fun when you're trying to see how fast you can do it
we used to have a raidwide 10 dkp bonus for clearing supremus trash in less than 20 minutes and it actually made it kind of entertaining
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Raid Finder class composition at 3AM on a Sunday morning. Wiped twice to Ultraxion, people getting one-shot because other tank wouldn't taunt off my Fading Light, healers not getting their buffs, hitting Berserk timer both times, and then I stepped out.
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass
Steam Profile | Signature art by Alexandra 'Lexxy' Douglass