What are you confused by, they changed the line from Jewish families to donated from the finest families in germany, not signaling one group out from the lot. So it more accurately reflected that the nazis stole from everyone not just jewish people.
Who did they steal from?
The german people? Russians, gyspies, homosexuals, anyone who wound up in a concentration camp didn't get to keep their stuff. People always talk about the jewish holocaust and they made up a large majority of the camp population but they were not alone.
I thought that's where you were going, but I didn't want to assume. But the fact that the Nazi's also killed Slavs and gypsies and such doesn't particularly matter when Donovan's line specifies locale, "...in all Germany..."
because only blond haired blue eyed people lived in germany???
What? Read the conversation again. Jewish families are the ones you'd rob IN GERMANY.
well they robbed jewish families outside germany too. also, non-jewish families in germany.
DONOVAN:
Your highness, these treaures were donated from some of the finest Jewish families in all Germany. Also, those rings come from some homosexuals. That vase was from a group of intellectuals. Those three bangles came from some Slavs we killed. I don't remember all of them, but Franz has a list here so that no other victim of the Nazis will feel less victimized than any of the rest. Oh, what's that? You want the car instead?
I look forward to a future where Oskar Schindler is as firmly established an action hero as James Bond and we're all lecturing our kids about how much better Liam Neeson was in the role compared to Jonathan Rhys Meyers.
Schindler's Pissed can be about him kcicking the shit out of Japanese people to end the Bataan Death March.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
11 million people died in the holocaust.
6 million Jews
5 million other (Gays, Gypsies, Catholics, Communists, etc.)
Jews were not the only people the Nazis persecuted, but they were by far the largest group. Many people forget about the other five million, though.
I don't understand this conversation.
I said I think Lucas was a chicken by switching out the "Jesse Owens"/"Jewish families" lines in Last Crusade, everyone else apparently, based on arguing the opposite, must think Lucas was instead being well-educated and culturally sensitive to all the other victims of said holocaust and the Nazi regime.
Ah, yeah that's kind of a bitchout. On the other hand I can see the logic in not talking about the holocaust in an Indiana Jones movie.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
First off, "Mickey Mouse" is just funnier there, sorry.
Secondly, I hardly think The Last Crusade white-washes the Nazis--if anything, it's more directly critical of them than Raiders, what with the Berlin scene and Sean Connery acting as the voice of righteous indignation. "It tells me that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them."
First off, "Mickey Mouse" is just funnier there, sorry.
Secondly, I hardly think The Last Crusade white-washes the Nazis--if anything, it's more directly critical of them than Raiders, what with the Berlin scene and Sean Connery acting as the voice of righteous indignation. "It tells me that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them."
The german butler wasn't funny even.
And if you're gonna be critical, be critical. You don't have to have Indy fight his way through a concentration camp, but you can leave in the single, solitary reference to the holocaust. Instead, the book burning is turned into a morbid joke with Hitler signing the diary.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Crusade isn't about the holocaust; it doesn't factor into why Indy is fighting the Nazis. The same goes for Raiders, really, where the Nazis are evil because they attempt to take the ineffable power of God and use it as a weapon. In Crusade they're portrayed as a people as against academia and the pursuit of knowledge as the man who refuses to let Coronado's cross go to a museum. They're arrogant and willfully ignorant, and it's the lack of knowledge that ultimately destroys Donovan. Indie, on the other hand, fights with and for knowledge, from the irony of going to a book-burning to rescue a book to using his religious historical upbringing to solve the deadly puzzles. Even his relationship with his father feels more like teacher/pupil than father/son most of the time.
The Holocaust was a terrible thing; but in both of these movies, it was thematically off-point. Regardless of Lucas's reasoning here, he made the right call.
Pretty sure "Jesse Owens" was changed to "Mickey Mouse" because people don't know who Jesse Owens is. I mean, quick informal poll, who here on the forums knows who he is? And for christ's sake don't Google it first.
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NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
Famous black athlete.
Possibly famous for running.
Course I only know this because of Blazing Saddles.
I actually knew who he was, though it was mostly because we talked about him in my World Religions class not too long ago, and a book I like has a character who's obsessed with him.
And what lines are we talking about? This is the first I've ever heard of it.
Just back from Prometheus. First off, seeing it in 3D was a waste of money. There's a few parts it stands out but mostly it's unnoticeable. Definitely not worth the extra cost and as the film is pretty dark overall you miss out on a lot of detail due to the darkness of the glasses (why can't they ramp the brightness / contrast up slightly?).
So, spoilers;
None of it really makes any sense.
The intro, what the hell? Do the engineers sacrifice themselves to kickstart life on new planets? Is that what we're supposed to believe?
"It's an invitation" we are told at the start of the film. From aliens who have been in contact with ancient civilisations in the past. Whom we had some kind of relationship with and worshipped. But then, for reasons unknown we fell out with them, contact ceased and they wanted to destroy us? But still they left us this 'invitation' to find them?
But then it gets worse. Stringer Bell explains the moon is some sort of weapons research facility, maybe military and it's full of WMD's. In which case, why have the engineers (who want to destroy us apparently) left star maps all over Earth detailing the location of what is for all intents and purposes their version of Area 51? What is the purpose of that?
Why was Peter Weyland so old? Apparently his TED talk happened decades earlier, did he know about the engineers then? Was he aware of these star maps? Apparently not as Theron tells us it was down to Shaws pitch that they were on this expedition. So where does the TED talk fit in? I have no idea as nothing is ever explained!
What's with the giant head? What was the green stone Holloway is looking at? What is 'changing' (it was too dark to see) when they're in that room with the canisters? Why did that guy try to interact with the eel? What was with the giant squid? Why the fuck did the proto-xeno look so cute and cuddly?
This is speculative, but
I get the impression that the Engineer that sacrifices himself in the opening scene of Prometheus is the thematic tie-in to the film's title. That is, he's a rogue member of the species that has given Earth the building blocks from which humanity will eventually be formed and the rest of the species have taken a dim view of this 'heresy' and decided his creation should be culled. Maybe this renegade wanted to level the playing field by giving the galaxy some competition for the Engineers. Maybe the maps are less of an invitation than a warning, or they've been planted by the Engineer orthodoxy as a trap should humanity master space travel. We never find out anything conclusively (a flaw of the screenplay and another indication of its lack of focus).
The opening scenes of Temple of Doom, right up until they close the door of the airplane, are absolutely incredible. The musical number, the stuff at the club, the chase, all of it.
Pretty sure "Jesse Owens" was changed to "Mickey Mouse" because people don't know who Jesse Owens is. I mean, quick informal poll, who here on the forums knows who he is? And for christ's sake don't Google it first.
I dunno if young folk know who he was, but back when The Last Crusade was released I'd say a high number of people would have known who Jesse Owens was.
Yeah, Prometheus really lacked focus. It was fun though, and it's nice to get a horror/sci fi/suspense movie again. And it at least seemed they did use practical effects quite a bit, which is always nice in my books.
I think it's testament to how much I've blocked out KotCS from my memory that I honestly can't remember if I've seen that red letter media review before.
I think it's testament to how much I've blocked out KotCS from my memory that I honestly can't remember if I've seen that red letter media review before.
Its a good review and for me it brought up a lot of things about the Indy franchise I hadn't thought about. Like how Indy is just a stand in for the audience and thats one of the primary reasons KOTCS didn't work. We want Sean Connery to be our absentee father, we don't want Indianna Jones, because thats who we are supposed to be
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
You know, I didn't hate KotCS.
It was out of place, and trying to recapture the spirit of something that was, at the time, over 20 years old even through it's previous installment, and had been suitably replaced franchise wise by the Mummy (albeit a letdown of a third film in that series)
Having said that, there were parts of it I found entertaining, enough so that if it comes on television in HD I can sit through it, despite the nuclear fridge relay and daddy issues from a kid who is both incredibly good at something as obscure as fencing yet has no real working knowledge of foreign travel and survival, despite having a mother who most likely traveled the globe during his adolescence.
The Jesse Owens --> Mickey Mouse line change really says a lot about what popcorn flick filmmakers think about their audiences. The condescension, the assumed educational level and disconnect with our own history. There's so much there to unpack.
I'm a monkey of average intelligence, and I'm in no way arrogant enough to assume that the majority of moviegoers don't know who Jesse Owens is, or about the damage he caused to Hitler's propaganda machine after the Berlin games--like this is some secret piece of history only I am privy too.
Even if somebody didn't know who Jesse Owens was, like say they're a child or something, they would at least shrug off the line and keep watching. If they're intellectually curious, they may even look it up later or ask their parents about it.
But no. Filmmakers believed we were stupid even then.
The Jesse Owens --> Mickey Mouse line change really says a lot about what popcorn flick filmmakers think about their audiences. The condescension, the assumed educational level and disconnect with our own history. There's so much there to unpack.
I'm a monkey of average intelligence, and I'm in no way arrogant enough to assume that the majority of moviegoers don't know who Jesse Owens is, or about the damage he caused to Hitler's propaganda machine after the Berlin games--like this is some secret piece of history only I am privy too.
Even if somebody didn't know who Jesse Owens was, like say they're a child or something, they would at least shrug off the line and keep watching. If they're intellectually curious, they may even look it up later or ask their parents about it.
But no. Filmmakers believed we were stupid even then.
Gonna have to disagree with you there. I've met people who don't know who Che Guevara is. The prospects for Jesse Owens, name recognition-wise, strike me as dim.
The Jesse Owens --> Mickey Mouse line change really says a lot about what popcorn flick filmmakers think about their audiences. The condescension, the assumed educational level and disconnect with our own history. There's so much there to unpack.
I'm a monkey of average intelligence, and I'm in no way arrogant enough to assume that the majority of moviegoers don't know who Jesse Owens is, or about the damage he caused to Hitler's propaganda machine after the Berlin games--like this is some secret piece of history only I am privy too.
Even if somebody didn't know who Jesse Owens was, like say they're a child or something, they would at least shrug off the line and keep watching. If they're intellectually curious, they may even look it up later or ask their parents about it.
But no. Filmmakers believed we were stupid even then.
Gonna have to disagree with you there. I've met people who don't know who Che Guevara is. The prospects for Jesse Owens, name recognition-wise, strike me as dim.
Che Guevara wasn't a trailblazer for equality and a national hero, redefining attitudes towards blacks worldwide.
Literally just a shitty plain jane revolutionary from a foreign land in comparison.
I assume everybody knows who Rosa Parks is, too. And MLK, at the very least because it's a holiday.
You'd get maybe 1 in 3 with a cat like George Washington Carver?
Tell me I haven't been living a lie with these assumptions about what is and is not common knowledge.
Jesse Owens is by no means in the same ball park awareness wise as rosa parks and MLK. I don't recall at any point in my highschool history classes going over Owens.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Jesse Owens is by no means in the same ball park awareness wise as rosa parks and MLK. I don't recall at any point in my highschool history classes going over Owens.
If this is true, then I don't think I can use my own experiences and education as a benchmark here. It means that I'm wrong, we really are that collectively ignorant, and the filmmakers were right to assume as much.
It wouldn't be the first time someone has been wrong on the internet. If it's too obscure for most people to get, then it's too obscure for most people to get, and they made the right edit.
I did a report on Jesse Owens in the 5th grade, bros.
I did a report on Chinese treasure ships from the 15th century in 9th grade. I see what's going on here. My public school education has turned me into an over-knowledgable, effete film snob, offended by all these Mickey Mouse references in these *scoff* mainstream action films.
Jesse Owens is by no means in the same ball park awareness wise as rosa parks and MLK. I don't recall at any point in my highschool history classes going over Owens.
If this is true, then I don't think I can use my own experiences and education as a benchmark here. It means that I'm wrong, we really are that collectively ignorant, and the filmmakers were right to assume as much.
It wouldn't be the first time someone has been wrong on the internet. If it's too obscure for most people to get, then it's too obscure for most people to get, and they made the right edit.
I wouldn't say its collective ignorance, its just that people now (and even in the late 80s I think crusade was what 89?) wouldn't remember owens as much as say Jackie Robinson. Its one reason that in Cinderella man hollywood was able to have a jewish hero be shown as a straight villain and not a lot of people knew the real story on Max. Sports events from the 30's are just not common knowledge anymore.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Jesse Owens is by no means in the same ball park awareness wise as rosa parks and MLK. I don't recall at any point in my highschool history classes going over Owens.
If this is true, then I don't think I can use my own experiences and education as a benchmark here. It means that I'm wrong, we really are that collectively ignorant, and the filmmakers were right to assume as much.
It wouldn't be the first time someone has been wrong on the internet. If it's too obscure for most people to get, then it's too obscure for most people to get, and they made the right edit.
I wouldn't say its collective ignorance, its just that people now (and even in the late 80s I think crusade was what 89?) wouldn't remember owens as much as say Jackie Robinson. Its one reason that in Cinderella man hollywood was able to have a jewish hero be shown as a straight villain and not a lot of people knew the real story on Max. Sports events from the 30's are just not common knowledge anymore.
Interesting aside:
The real-life villain in Cinderella Man, Max Baer, had a son who he gave his own name to, making that boy Max Baer, Jr.
That boy would go on to be famous in his own right as a lead actor in one of the most famous and long-running sitcoms of all time.
If it's too obscure for most people to get, then it's too obscure for most people to get, and they made the right edit.
The sad paret is, when you watch the scene the words, "Mickey Mouse!" come out of lips saying "Jesse Owens!"
Now, addressing Skull, besides it myriad mentioned flaws, the film is super confused about what it's story is, and it serves only to dirty the series's already shaky mythology. In Skull, Indy gives us two explanations which are somewhat exclusive by saying the aliens are collectors of ancient human artifacts having come to study us and also that they're Chariots of the Gods style ancient aliens; besides the racist implications of this last point put forth yet again and supported by the film, it also begs the quesion of what the other artifacts Indy has collected were. Are they items given to us by aliens? So the Ark doesn't have the power of God but of saucer men? It's so dumb.
Jesse Owens is by no means in the same ball park awareness wise as rosa parks and MLK. I don't recall at any point in my highschool history classes going over Owens.
If this is true, then I don't think I can use my own experiences and education as a benchmark here. It means that I'm wrong, we really are that collectively ignorant, and the filmmakers were right to assume as much.
It wouldn't be the first time someone has been wrong on the internet. If it's too obscure for most people to get, then it's too obscure for most people to get, and they made the right edit.
I wouldn't say its collective ignorance, its just that people now (and even in the late 80s I think crusade was what 89?) wouldn't remember owens as much as say Jackie Robinson. Its one reason that in Cinderella man hollywood was able to have a jewish hero be shown as a straight villain and not a lot of people knew the real story on Max. Sports events from the 30's are just not common knowledge anymore.
Interesting aside:
The real-life villain in Cinderella Man, Max Baer, had a son who he gave his own name to, making that boy Max Baer, Jr.
That boy would go on to be famous in his own right as a lead actor in one of the most famous and long-running sitcoms of all time.
Posts
DONOVAN:
Your highness, these treaures were donated from some of the finest Jewish families in all Germany. Also, those rings come from some homosexuals. That vase was from a group of intellectuals. Those three bangles came from some Slavs we killed. I don't remember all of them, but Franz has a list here so that no other victim of the Nazis will feel less victimized than any of the rest. Oh, what's that? You want the car instead?
Schindler's Pissed can be about him kcicking the shit out of Japanese people to end the Bataan Death March.
Ah, yeah that's kind of a bitchout. On the other hand I can see the logic in not talking about the holocaust in an Indiana Jones movie.
Secondly, I hardly think The Last Crusade white-washes the Nazis--if anything, it's more directly critical of them than Raiders, what with the Berlin scene and Sean Connery acting as the voice of righteous indignation. "It tells me that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them."
The german butler wasn't funny even.
And if you're gonna be critical, be critical. You don't have to have Indy fight his way through a concentration camp, but you can leave in the single, solitary reference to the holocaust. Instead, the book burning is turned into a morbid joke with Hitler signing the diary.
The Holocaust was a terrible thing; but in both of these movies, it was thematically off-point. Regardless of Lucas's reasoning here, he made the right call.
Agree to disagree.
edit: oh because there's a trailers thread, derp.
Possibly famous for running.
Course I only know this because of Blazing Saddles.
And what lines are we talking about? This is the first I've ever heard of it.
This is speculative, but
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
How do you know know who Jessie Owens is?
You went to school in the South i guess?
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I think it's testament to how much I've blocked out KotCS from my memory that I honestly can't remember if I've seen that red letter media review before.
Its a good review and for me it brought up a lot of things about the Indy franchise I hadn't thought about. Like how Indy is just a stand in for the audience and thats one of the primary reasons KOTCS didn't work. We want Sean Connery to be our absentee father, we don't want Indianna Jones, because thats who we are supposed to be
pleasepaypreacher.net
It was out of place, and trying to recapture the spirit of something that was, at the time, over 20 years old even through it's previous installment, and had been suitably replaced franchise wise by the Mummy (albeit a letdown of a third film in that series)
Having said that, there were parts of it I found entertaining, enough so that if it comes on television in HD I can sit through it, despite the nuclear fridge relay and daddy issues from a kid who is both incredibly good at something as obscure as fencing yet has no real working knowledge of foreign travel and survival, despite having a mother who most likely traveled the globe during his adolescence.
I'm a monkey of average intelligence, and I'm in no way arrogant enough to assume that the majority of moviegoers don't know who Jesse Owens is, or about the damage he caused to Hitler's propaganda machine after the Berlin games--like this is some secret piece of history only I am privy too.
Even if somebody didn't know who Jesse Owens was, like say they're a child or something, they would at least shrug off the line and keep watching. If they're intellectually curious, they may even look it up later or ask their parents about it.
But no. Filmmakers believed we were stupid even then.
Che Guevara wasn't a trailblazer for equality and a national hero, redefining attitudes towards blacks worldwide.
Literally just a shitty plain jane revolutionary from a foreign land in comparison.
I assume everybody knows who Rosa Parks is, too. And MLK, at the very least because it's a holiday.
You'd get maybe 1 in 3 with a cat like George Washington Carver?
Tell me I haven't been living a lie with these assumptions about what is and is not common knowledge.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
If this is true, then I don't think I can use my own experiences and education as a benchmark here. It means that I'm wrong, we really are that collectively ignorant, and the filmmakers were right to assume as much.
It wouldn't be the first time someone has been wrong on the internet. If it's too obscure for most people to get, then it's too obscure for most people to get, and they made the right edit.
He was really a distance runner, unfortunately those don't gain as much noteriety.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I did a report on Chinese treasure ships from the 15th century in 9th grade. I see what's going on here. My public school education has turned me into an over-knowledgable, effete film snob, offended by all these Mickey Mouse references in these *scoff* mainstream action films.
I wouldn't say its collective ignorance, its just that people now (and even in the late 80s I think crusade was what 89?) wouldn't remember owens as much as say Jackie Robinson. Its one reason that in Cinderella man hollywood was able to have a jewish hero be shown as a straight villain and not a lot of people knew the real story on Max. Sports events from the 30's are just not common knowledge anymore.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't have a problem with that change.
I wish they had kept the Jewish families line in, though.
Interesting aside:
The real-life villain in Cinderella Man, Max Baer, had a son who he gave his own name to, making that boy Max Baer, Jr.
That boy would go on to be famous in his own right as a lead actor in one of the most famous and long-running sitcoms of all time.
The sad paret is, when you watch the scene the words, "Mickey Mouse!" come out of lips saying "Jesse Owens!"
Now, addressing Skull, besides it myriad mentioned flaws, the film is super confused about what it's story is, and it serves only to dirty the series's already shaky mythology. In Skull, Indy gives us two explanations which are somewhat exclusive by saying the aliens are collectors of ancient human artifacts having come to study us and also that they're Chariots of the Gods style ancient aliens; besides the racist implications of this last point put forth yet again and supported by the film, it also begs the quesion of what the other artifacts Indy has collected were. Are they items given to us by aliens? So the Ark doesn't have the power of God but of saucer men? It's so dumb.
Jethro and Jethrine Bodine.