and i'm not excited by tree, since they got rid of his eyes i just think he's a worse tidehunter (unless the game goes super late where people have multiple blinks and shit)
and i'm not excited by tree, since they got rid of his eyes i just think he's a worse tidehunter (unless the game goes super late where people have multiple blinks and shit)
I dunno being able to heal buildings seems pretty cool.
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CreamstoutWhat you think I program for, to push a fuckin' quad-core?Registered Userregular
and i'm not excited by tree, since they got rid of his eyes i just think he's a worse tidehunter (unless the game goes super late where people have multiple blinks and shit)
I like tree in more of a supporting role than I usually go with Tidehunter. Drow + Tree seems like a fun lane. Nature's Guise is such a good ability for setting up lane ganks.
and i'm not excited by tree, since they got rid of his eyes i just think he's a worse tidehunter (unless the game goes super late where people have multiple blinks and shit)
I dunno being able to heal buildings seems pretty cool.
its alright but you have to stand around and with his new invis and shit i'd rather be roaming around
but even then its like
low casting range slow, eh
i mean, he's definitely all right and not a bad hero at all -- his ult is great and being able to have some decent passive regen and spammy invis eventually is nice
I've never been good with Tiny, so I've decided to try figuring out how to play him.
Unless I luck into a matchup with certain other melee heros, he's a poor solo; I think that much is obvious. He has no real ability to control the lane, and while his base damage is among the higher ones, it doesn't top Naix or Doom or a few others who aren't in the game yet. The total amount of money he needs is really not that high (early game does he really need anything more than blink/bottle/boots?), but he absolutely needs to get that money in a hurry. The fact that blink dagger costs 2150 in one big chunk hurts. Aside from trying to get as much out of his high base damage for last hits as possible, what's a good laning strategy for Tiny? Pair with Shadow Shaman for kills in lane? Is it more effective to head out for ganks early, or to stay in lane until both boots and bottle have been acquired? The cost of failed ganks gets to be steep since it feels like there's such a small window in which Tiny's combo is truly deadly, so if he's not getting money/xp from the ganks I feel like he's doubly hurt.
Bottle and rune control are critical to sustaining his ganking as everybody knows, but finding ways to mitigate the negative impact of others getting the runes is tricky. You can't get ALL the runes, and there will be times when the rune just spawns right beside an enemy. A very nice thing is that a full bottle gives 225 mana, which is almost enough for ava/toss all by itself. Passing the bottle to the courier is probably the best way to go should I fail to get a rune. Is there a better strategy?
The way I'm building right now is:
2 tangos
stout
3 branches
boots/bottle
- If enemy is dumb and I'm able to bag kills just with that, then sustaining myself in the field makes me get arcane boots. In most cases, I'll try to get the blink dagger first, because it's often a necessary condition for effective ganking)
- If things are going really badly/well, I get the jango; it combined with grow ms buff makes it hard for people to run away from me, which is useful for finishing people off or just charging in when I don't have blink at the moment)
- After that I build for aghanims so that I can be relevant as a pusher (which I don't always finish), and the luxury item after that would probably be whatever the team needs (ac, sheepstick, etc.)
Skill build is the cookie cutter ava/toss, with lvl 4 avalanche taken after maxing toss. I might take grow at 6 just for the move speed.
Solo mid. bottle then boots then blink dagger.
Gank with invis and haste. Grab the rest for regen/refilling bottle/last hitting.
Don't be afraid not to gank, failed ganks have a HUGE opportunity cost and you need that blink dagger. You're exponentially scarier once you have it. But you need it early. Like level 8-11 early. I skip arcane boots to get blink faster. You need that 1000 gold for blink way more than you need more mana.
You get overleveled with blink early you can basically end the game on your own.
I like cuirass--gives you armor and IAS, both of which you lack.
Also dagon, because dagon is fun. And you have a vested interest in keeping your ability to one shot people and continue to snowball. Dagon gets better as it levels too.
There's also always guinsoo and forcestaff and euls and other disables/movement if you want to be all tryhard, or you know "good." but I prefer dagon, if I can get it early enough.
Tree was more cool with his old free ward skill. However I played the most annoying game of Dota 2 ever. Opposing team had Treant, Enchantress, Necrolyte, Bounty Hunter and Invoker. It was one big heal heal heal. We did manage to win but every single teamfight was just so annoying. Also it didn't help that our Ancient Apparation kept mistiming his ulti.
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CreamstoutWhat you think I program for, to push a fuckin' quad-core?Registered Userregular
Played Tree last night, went with the a typical support spec (Mana Boots, Drum of Endurance, Mekanism). We were able to push the opposing teams t1 towers and gank them constantly 4v5 while our SK just sat in our forest and farmed for the first 30 minutes. Ended around 45 minute mark when our SK was really farmt.
Glad to have Tree back into the fray, he offers a lot of team flexibility.
Tree was more cool with his old free ward skill. However I played the most annoying game of Dota 2 ever. Opposing team had Treant, Enchantress, Necrolyte, Bounty Hunter and Invoker. It was one big heal heal heal. We did manage to win but every single teamfight was just so annoying. Also it didn't help that our Ancient Apparation kept mistiming his ulti.
I wasn't in that game, but when I play AA, I'm that guy.
I only wonder if the limited pool might see him at least get played in some high level scrims. Nobody touches him in dota 1, but he was out of the CM pool for like 2 years.
His problems now are that he is a melee support with no aoe and an ult that scales for shit because everyone can bkb out of it. His early and mid game laning is still decent, though.
I'm ambivalent about his 2 remakes. Original Roof was a hero with some unique mechanics (eyes in the forest = free ward), and he was an excellent babysitter for hard carries (his aura used to be a single target heal that added tons of regen and armour, and his invis used to be instant).
But then several deliberate changes were made to the game that essential meant Roof had to be changed. First was the introduction of quelling blades. Before a support would have to sacrifice a tango in order to take out one of Roof's eyes--they were just extra trees that he could place and receive vision from--and as the game went on less people had them and it was less worthwhile to carry them around. With quelling blade each team would have at least 1 hero who could always take out a tree with no cost to themselves. Then that skill was replaced with a very interesting nuke/stun that he could lay all over the place, like Lanaya's traps except they did damage and stunned instead of just slowing. It was a very strong skill that made him more active in games. But it was also kind of ridiculous.
I can see why other changes were made and then undone. Like how he became able to cast living armour on buildings. It was a way to make keeping towers alive easier after all the changes to tps. But it was also kind of ridiculous and just slowed the game down. Icefrog wanted a more active pushing and ganking game. And really, with the way pushes work now it would barely have mattered. The first two tiers are going down all at once anyway. It would have made base defending somewhat easier, but since Roof himself contributes nothing to actual defending (no aoe or long range spammable nukes) a team would have to be deliberately going for a super late game turtle strat to make good use of it. Which is, again, the exact opposite of what Icefrog wanted.
Personally, I hated all the meta game surrounding a hero like Roof (and never liked playing him outside of early laning), but I can't deny that he has lost many of his unique qualities, and overall I prefer unique ideas a little too much.
Tree was more cool with his old free ward skill. However I played the most annoying game of Dota 2 ever. Opposing team had Treant, Enchantress, Necrolyte, Bounty Hunter and Invoker. It was one big heal heal heal. We did manage to win but every single teamfight was just so annoying. Also it didn't help that our Ancient Apparation kept mistiming his ulti.
I wasn't in that game, but when I play AA, I'm that guy.
I'm the same way with Sand King. I'm still pretty new at Dota (never played the original and maybe have 30 games under my belt in Dota 2) and I've played like 10 matches with Sand King. I've gotten a lot better with him than I was originally, but I still do a poor job at initiating. I'll start my ult and shift queue blink and either take damage which puts blink on cooldown, run out of mana, leaving me with not enough to blink, or, even more embarrassing, hit capslock instead of shift and blink in before I finish channeling, which end up with me dead and a wasted ult with a long cooldown. And even when I'm successful I usually end up dying b/c I don't know how to extract myself. I get yelled at so much. But I really enjoy playing him (much more fun than skeleton king whom I started off with) and am determined to get decent with him. Though I should probably start trying out other characters.
I think it kind of played to an interesting theme that the big tree aimed to slow the game down. Of course, back then (i.e. back when his skills where single target armor/regen, eyes, and invis) Roof also had the overall highest stat gain in the game as well as the highest STR game. Considering that his only ability that dealt damage was his ult, it made for a curious mix. His current Living Armor is a powerful laning tool, as is Leech Seed, but I'm sad that he no longer provides any kind of map control/recon/intelligence tools. While I'm not sure I'd want him to become a nuker like Maokai in LoL, I really like how Maokai's saplings are a multipurpose tool that can act as a recon/ward.
I also think it's kind of interesting how hero/unit abilities slowly get added to items in the shop. Ghost Scepter is a buyable Decrepify, Jango is a portable Endurance Aura, Smoke is a limited version of potm's ult, Ethereal Blade has a component of Morph's adaptive strike, Urn is a highly modified Shadow Word.... I wonder what other hero abilities will be transitioned to items.
So i'm not really sure if get Tree. He just seems like a worse version of Tidehunter. I tried using him in a game and his slow is super short range and his ult I have to be standing in the middle of a team for it to hit more than one guy and then they just bkb out of it anyway.
Had a couple respectable matches last night, one with LIon and another with Necrolyte. I really like Necro, still plays the support role but can take more of a hit. Did much better with Lion this time, probably because i had better item management.
So i'm not really sure if get Tree. He just seems like a worse version of Tidehunter. I tried using him in a game and his slow is super short range and his ult I have to be standing in the middle of a team for it to hit more than one guy and then they just bkb out of it anyway.
Tree used to be awesome, but you have it pretty much nailed on there. He is a worse version of Tidehunter. Personally I can't wait for Chaos Knight and Ogre Magi. Randomness FTW!!!
u guys are saying that the tree is a worse version of tidehunter, i find this ironic because their ultis can work extremely well together stunning/disablingsnaring a whole team for 5 sec.
also tree's ulti goes through bkb, except for the dam.
But Roof's ult is a snare, not a stun. Which means that players can still cast and use items during it. Which means that they can just wait for the ult and then bkb. Or pipe. Or mek. Or just nuke and stun the shit out of Roof anyway.
i mean, if we are talking about stacking ults, why not just have an enigma along with your tide, a hero that provides way better pushing, can give you a jungler for team makeup flexibility, and honestly a stronger ganker with eidolons and The Most Annoying Stun In Dota
i guess this is a pretty noobish question but here it goes:
do all auto attacks count as physical damage?
Yes, though some auto attacks with Unique Attack Modifiers may cause additional damage based on other types. For example, Obsidian Destroyer's causes pure damage, while Viper's Poison Attack deals magic damage.
Cole's Law: "Thinly sliced cabbage."
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
i guess this is a pretty noobish question but here it goes:
do all auto attacks count as physical damage?
Yes, though some auto attacks with Unique Attack Modifiers may cause additional damage based on other types. For example, Obsidian Destroyer's causes pure damage, while Viper's Poison Attack deals magic damage.
For the sake of completeness, Enchantress's Impetus ability converts the whole attack into pure damage, including her regular base damage. I'm not aware of any other abilities that work like that, though.
Just finished watching this. That is something that actually makes Tiny a good pick again, but Lumi is probably right and they'll nerf it somehow, like no damage to things that have backdoor protection. That would be too bad, because that was a well thought out strat.
Just finished watching this. That is something that actually makes Tiny a good pick again, but Lumi is probably right and they'll nerf it somehow, like no damage to things that have backdoor protection. That would be too bad, because that was a well thought out strat.
eh i dont think that
i believe that icefrog doesn't totally want backdoors gone, as they give a team a persistent option to win the game if you need to go all in (other variations are mass bot, bkbs, maybe farming a rapier on a dude and making sure they don't die)
i think the thing in that game that was really the danger was multiple backdoors going on -- maybe some sort of deterrent to split backdooring? i don't know
really, at the end of the day, that was an amazingly executed strategy that took a lot of skill to pull off, and the game is mega impressive
if there are balance ramifications from one game's example, i don't know
if it is a dominant strategy, then sure
plus i think it happened because wisp is literally a nonpick so the other team didn't think much of it -- but they already had lycan and were stacking necros, so it was a strategy that they were able to pick because the other team conciously didn't think the sentinel were going all out push
Went for mana boots, anghs, soul ring, bottle. Ended up destroying (lol) an Outworld Destroyer as mid, and got the first five runes even.
Whoo! What hero?
Bane, which would have been apparent if the thread hadn't moved to a new page when I wasn't looking. Stupid thread.
Not really sure what to build on him, the Sheepstick is pretty expensive, as is Ethereal Blade. Refresher Orb and Dagon fall into the same caveats in addition to taxing my already really fucking taxed mana pool. Necronomicon is great, but hard to use effective; I guess I should just nut up and learn it.
My typical build is Soul Ring, Arcane Boots, Scepter, and Perseverance. Maybe I should look at Eul's and Orchid.
I rarely have issues. Sometimes a situation crops up where there is someone seriously worse than everyone else in the game, oh well.
The system definitely works though, I spectated someone I play with sometimes and holy shit it was like looking into another world.
5 of the players bought no regen, 1 player bought nothing and walked back to base at level 2 to buy Blades of Alacrity.
I think there were at least 5 boots firsts.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
is there any situation where boots first is the right choice? I can't think of any.
or, to be more specific, is there any situation where 2x tango, 2x slippers/gauntlets/mantle + fill up on ironwood is the wrong choice?
I split regen between tangos and salve. One of each.
Salve gives you more hp per gold and gets you back to laning safely quickly after an attempt on your life.
I also bring 1/2x clarity depending on the hero.
Sometimes mid I take 3 branches + nothing else and rush bottle.
Supports should always buy a courier if no one else does. I'd say get wards if another support buys a courier, but the courier is more important and pubs don't pay attention to the minimap anyway.
My support loadout is generally (courier | wards) + tango + salve + clarity -> fill branches.
I think I heard someone say once windrunner hard lane sometimes goes boots tango first to dart in and out of xp range, but I prefer tango, salve, ring of protection (can finish bassy at side shop) and 3 branches.
Maybe jugg or something for a firstblood attempt? But even then you don't need that if you have a slow helping you (which you should), slow and auto attack until it wears off then whirl and keep pace with them till they die.
the awful matchmaking just makes this game unplayable right now if you have any self respect
there is no light at the end of the tunnel, you can even watch the prostreams and see entry level awfulness abound
this is not scrutinized enough
hopefully they are working on something to make it better
Any self respect? Like you're so good you shouldn't have to have your time wasted playing with such total scrublords?
I mean...every once in awhile I'll notice an extra long queue will have some outliers, but in that instance, given the matchmaker has to exponentially expand its search parameters to fill the round, it's expected. The small population may be contributing as well.
Posts
and i'm not excited by tree, since they got rid of his eyes i just think he's a worse tidehunter (unless the game goes super late where people have multiple blinks and shit)
I dunno being able to heal buildings seems pretty cool.
I like tree in more of a supporting role than I usually go with Tidehunter. Drow + Tree seems like a fun lane. Nature's Guise is such a good ability for setting up lane ganks.
its alright but you have to stand around and with his new invis and shit i'd rather be roaming around
but even then its like
low casting range slow, eh
i mean, he's definitely all right and not a bad hero at all -- his ult is great and being able to have some decent passive regen and spammy invis eventually is nice
just not excited for him at all
Solo mid. bottle then boots then blink dagger.
Gank with invis and haste. Grab the rest for regen/refilling bottle/last hitting.
Don't be afraid not to gank, failed ganks have a HUGE opportunity cost and you need that blink dagger. You're exponentially scarier once you have it. But you need it early. Like level 8-11 early. I skip arcane boots to get blink faster. You need that 1000 gold for blink way more than you need more mana.
You get overleveled with blink early you can basically end the game on your own.
I like cuirass--gives you armor and IAS, both of which you lack.
Also dagon, because dagon is fun. And you have a vested interest in keeping your ability to one shot people and continue to snowball. Dagon gets better as it levels too.
There's also always guinsoo and forcestaff and euls and other disables/movement if you want to be all tryhard, or you know "good." but I prefer dagon, if I can get it early enough.
Glad to have Tree back into the fray, he offers a lot of team flexibility.
I wasn't in that game, but when I play AA, I'm that guy.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
His problems now are that he is a melee support with no aoe and an ult that scales for shit because everyone can bkb out of it. His early and mid game laning is still decent, though.
I'm ambivalent about his 2 remakes. Original Roof was a hero with some unique mechanics (eyes in the forest = free ward), and he was an excellent babysitter for hard carries (his aura used to be a single target heal that added tons of regen and armour, and his invis used to be instant).
But then several deliberate changes were made to the game that essential meant Roof had to be changed. First was the introduction of quelling blades. Before a support would have to sacrifice a tango in order to take out one of Roof's eyes--they were just extra trees that he could place and receive vision from--and as the game went on less people had them and it was less worthwhile to carry them around. With quelling blade each team would have at least 1 hero who could always take out a tree with no cost to themselves. Then that skill was replaced with a very interesting nuke/stun that he could lay all over the place, like Lanaya's traps except they did damage and stunned instead of just slowing. It was a very strong skill that made him more active in games. But it was also kind of ridiculous.
I can see why other changes were made and then undone. Like how he became able to cast living armour on buildings. It was a way to make keeping towers alive easier after all the changes to tps. But it was also kind of ridiculous and just slowed the game down. Icefrog wanted a more active pushing and ganking game. And really, with the way pushes work now it would barely have mattered. The first two tiers are going down all at once anyway. It would have made base defending somewhat easier, but since Roof himself contributes nothing to actual defending (no aoe or long range spammable nukes) a team would have to be deliberately going for a super late game turtle strat to make good use of it. Which is, again, the exact opposite of what Icefrog wanted.
Personally, I hated all the meta game surrounding a hero like Roof (and never liked playing him outside of early laning), but I can't deny that he has lost many of his unique qualities, and overall I prefer unique ideas a little too much.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
I'm the same way with Sand King. I'm still pretty new at Dota (never played the original and maybe have 30 games under my belt in Dota 2) and I've played like 10 matches with Sand King. I've gotten a lot better with him than I was originally, but I still do a poor job at initiating. I'll start my ult and shift queue blink and either take damage which puts blink on cooldown, run out of mana, leaving me with not enough to blink, or, even more embarrassing, hit capslock instead of shift and blink in before I finish channeling, which end up with me dead and a wasted ult with a long cooldown. And even when I'm successful I usually end up dying b/c I don't know how to extract myself. I get yelled at so much. But I really enjoy playing him (much more fun than skeleton king whom I started off with) and am determined to get decent with him. Though I should probably start trying out other characters.
I also think it's kind of interesting how hero/unit abilities slowly get added to items in the shop. Ghost Scepter is a buyable Decrepify, Jango is a portable Endurance Aura, Smoke is a limited version of potm's ult, Ethereal Blade has a component of Morph's adaptive strike, Urn is a highly modified Shadow Word.... I wonder what other hero abilities will be transitioned to items.
I have never won a game with Bane.
This makes me sad.
That is more or less Bane in a nutshell.
Incredibly powerful early/mid game, unreliable or useless late game.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Went for mana boots, anghs, soul ring, bottle. Ended up destroying (lol) an Outworld Destroyer as mid, and got the first five runes even.
Tree used to be awesome, but you have it pretty much nailed on there. He is a worse version of Tidehunter. Personally I can't wait for Chaos Knight and Ogre Magi. Randomness FTW!!!
also tree's ulti goes through bkb, except for the dam.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
do all auto attacks count as physical damage?
Yes, though some auto attacks with Unique Attack Modifiers may cause additional damage based on other types. For example, Obsidian Destroyer's causes pure damage, while Viper's Poison Attack deals magic damage.
Whoo! What hero?
why can't wisp be in this game yet HOLY DUNK
For the sake of completeness, Enchantress's Impetus ability converts the whole attack into pure damage, including her regular base damage. I'm not aware of any other abilities that work like that, though.
Just finished watching this. That is something that actually makes Tiny a good pick again, but Lumi is probably right and they'll nerf it somehow, like no damage to things that have backdoor protection. That would be too bad, because that was a well thought out strat.
eh i dont think that
i believe that icefrog doesn't totally want backdoors gone, as they give a team a persistent option to win the game if you need to go all in (other variations are mass bot, bkbs, maybe farming a rapier on a dude and making sure they don't die)
i think the thing in that game that was really the danger was multiple backdoors going on -- maybe some sort of deterrent to split backdooring? i don't know
really, at the end of the day, that was an amazingly executed strategy that took a lot of skill to pull off, and the game is mega impressive
if there are balance ramifications from one game's example, i don't know
if it is a dominant strategy, then sure
plus i think it happened because wisp is literally a nonpick so the other team didn't think much of it -- but they already had lycan and were stacking necros, so it was a strategy that they were able to pick because the other team conciously didn't think the sentinel were going all out push
Bane, which would have been apparent if the thread hadn't moved to a new page when I wasn't looking. Stupid thread.
Not really sure what to build on him, the Sheepstick is pretty expensive, as is Ethereal Blade. Refresher Orb and Dagon fall into the same caveats in addition to taxing my already really fucking taxed mana pool. Necronomicon is great, but hard to use effective; I guess I should just nut up and learn it.
My typical build is Soul Ring, Arcane Boots, Scepter, and Perseverance. Maybe I should look at Eul's and Orchid.
there is no light at the end of the tunnel, you can even watch the prostreams and see entry level awfulness abound
this is not scrutinized enough
hopefully they are working on something to make it better
all
i want
is wisp
I would like to know this as well.
The system definitely works though, I spectated someone I play with sometimes and holy shit it was like looking into another world.
5 of the players bought no regen, 1 player bought nothing and walked back to base at level 2 to buy Blades of Alacrity.
I think there were at least 5 boots firsts.
or, to be more specific, is there any situation where 2x tango, 2x slippers/gauntlets/mantle + fill up on ironwood is the wrong choice?
Should casters be taking claritys?
Salve gives you more hp per gold and gets you back to laning safely quickly after an attempt on your life.
I also bring 1/2x clarity depending on the hero.
Sometimes mid I take 3 branches + nothing else and rush bottle.
Supports should always buy a courier if no one else does. I'd say get wards if another support buys a courier, but the courier is more important and pubs don't pay attention to the minimap anyway.
My support loadout is generally (courier | wards) + tango + salve + clarity -> fill branches.
I think I heard someone say once windrunner hard lane sometimes goes boots tango first to dart in and out of xp range, but I prefer tango, salve, ring of protection (can finish bassy at side shop) and 3 branches.
Maybe jugg or something for a firstblood attempt? But even then you don't need that if you have a slow helping you (which you should), slow and auto attack until it wears off then whirl and keep pace with them till they die.
still not sure I would do it.
it's also less bad if you have random gold, but there's really no reason to do it now that you can get boots from the sideshop
Any self respect? Like you're so good you shouldn't have to have your time wasted playing with such total scrublords?
I mean...every once in awhile I'll notice an extra long queue will have some outliers, but in that instance, given the matchmaker has to exponentially expand its search parameters to fill the round, it's expected. The small population may be contributing as well.