the VO for David Serif in DE:HR was on some radio show for some reason
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Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
General me3 spoilers and a tiny bit of the wire.
I'm fine with Sheperd dying, the mass effect 1-3 has been sheperd's story and it's over. His death is a bookend to the story. It's over, and so is he, sure he may have gone and lived happily ever after with whatever fan fiction you liked, but death is an acceptable end.
People who complain just prove my point. They don't want Sheperd to die. The writers have done their job. They have created an emotional connection between the player and Sheperd. And death, provides (an admittedly easy) emotional reaction.
A valid complaint could have been that his death wasn't cheap, and I suppose with the combination of the weakness of the ending it can be argued that it was cheap. But it was a sacrifice which makes sense for sheperd's character.
A good death doesn't need to be a sacrifice though, a good death needs to be reflective of the character's lifestyle. Omar's death is a good example for this. He lived very much on opportunistic violence for money, and that is how he died. He died suddenly by a kid who saw a chance. Conversely sheperd's life has been about making hard, long term choices for the greater good.
Ignoring the choices made at the crucible, Sheperd made a very clear sacrifice. He will activate the crucible and sacrifice his life so that others may live. Which has many parallels with the game where Sheperd asks many people to do the same.
Actually it's kind of hard to really nail down some of the themes and tones of the trilogy because those very things can be presented quite differently depending on how you play.
It's one of the inherent problems with the very ambitious nature of the story they set out to build.
I'm most concerned that this apparent (and well-publicized) "failure" will give other developers cold feet with this sort of epic narrative, and I think that would be a tremendous shame.
I don't know that many other developers are really cut out to even attempt something like the Mass Effect trilogy, regardless of the response to the ending. There are plenty of epic narratives rolling around in gaming, or attempts at an epic narrative, but most don't let players affect the story with their choices. And the ones they do tend to neuter those choices to the point where the effect is felt more from a gameplay perspective than a narrative perspective.
Certainly not the scale, but the notion of telling a multi-chaptered epic story isn't limited to fully-rendered 3D with multiplayer and all of the other features that ME was able to bring to bear. I'm nervous that nobody will touch the save-importing mechanic for a long time, and I think that's unfortunate.
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
because i'm a giant baby who can't handle anything that isn't sunshine and rainbows"
honestly, I seldom see this as a complaint
I see this as what people THINK complainers are complaining about, but I've not actually seen very many people actively complain about this
honestly, it's just that the ending doesn't make any fucking sense, and in a game where 99% of it is watertight in detail and writing and thought, for it to completely fall apart in basic logic in the last 1% is super, super bad
maybe if the rest of the game was less watertight with its detail, the ending may actually have been forgivable
but because the rest of the game is of such great quality and makes so much sense and forces you think weigh options and think critically (well, more critically than most other games encourage), the expectations on the ending were that it would be of equal quality on those counts, and it wasn't, because it falls apart with just a few basic questions
yeah i'm willing to accept this was a localized thing because i've really only seen it in one place
they were just particularly loud about it in that place
Actually it's kind of hard to really nail down some of the themes and tones of the trilogy because those very things can be presented quite differently depending on how you play.
It's one of the inherent problems with the very ambitious nature of the story they set out to build.
I'm most concerned that this apparent (and well-publicized) "failure" will give other developers cold feet with this sort of epic narrative, and I think that would be a tremendous shame.
I don't know that many other developers are really cut out to even attempt something like the Mass Effect trilogy, regardless of the response to the ending. There are plenty of epic narratives rolling around in gaming, or attempts at an epic narrative, but most don't let players affect the story with their choices. And the ones they do tend to neuter those choices to the point where the effect is felt more from a gameplay perspective than a narrative perspective.
Certainly not the scale, but the notion of telling a multi-chaptered epic story isn't limited to fully-rendered 3D with multiplayer and all of the other features that ME was able to bring to bear. I'm nervous that nobody will touch the save-importing mechanic for a long time, and I think that's unfortunate.
Well, the only notable company that's doing it is Bioware and I don't think they're going to stop. I would like to see more of that happen in the future, though.
I'm fine with Sheperd dying, the mass effect 1-3 has been sheperd's story and it's over. His death is a bookend to the story. It's over, and so is he, sure he may have gone and lived happily ever after with whatever fan fiction you liked, but death is an acceptable end.
People who complain just prove my point. They don't want Sheperd to die. The writers have done their job. They have created an emotional connection between the player and Sheperd. And death, provides (an admittedly easy) emotional reaction.
A valid complaint could have been that his death wasn't cheap, and I suppose with the combination of the weakness of the ending it can be argued that it was cheap. But it was a sacrifice which makes sense for sheperd's character.
A good death doesn't need to be a sacrifice though, a good death needs to be reflective of the character's lifestyle. Omar's death is a good example for this. He lived very much on opportunistic violence for money, and that is how he died. He died suddenly by a kid who saw a chance. Conversely sheperd's life has been about making hard, long term choices for the greater good.
Ignoring the choices made at the crucible, Sheperd made a very clear sacrifice. He will activate the crucible and sacrifice his life so that others may live. Which has many parallels with the game where Sheperd asks many people to do the same.
I think you've got a case for that being present in the narrative, but I don't know if it's presented well or accessible to the average player. If that's your ending, then it ought to be the culmination of themes that have been present through-out. That is to say, it really should be obvious to anybody, and it seems pretty clear that a lot of people feel that that isn't the case.
Although personally, based on your description of Shepard's life, I'd be inclined to agree with you. In those terms, the series seems a lot more consistent.
I gotta take issue with the notion that a writer's job is to trigger an emotional response, though. That's far too general a statement to be worth anything.
Actually it's kind of hard to really nail down some of the themes and tones of the trilogy because those very things can be presented quite differently depending on how you play.
It's one of the inherent problems with the very ambitious nature of the story they set out to build.
I'm most concerned that this apparent (and well-publicized) "failure" will give other developers cold feet with this sort of epic narrative, and I think that would be a tremendous shame.
I don't know that many other developers are really cut out to even attempt something like the Mass Effect trilogy, regardless of the response to the ending. There are plenty of epic narratives rolling around in gaming, or attempts at an epic narrative, but most don't let players affect the story with their choices. And the ones they do tend to neuter those choices to the point where the effect is felt more from a gameplay perspective than a narrative perspective.
Certainly not the scale, but the notion of telling a multi-chaptered epic story isn't limited to fully-rendered 3D with multiplayer and all of the other features that ME was able to bring to bear. I'm nervous that nobody will touch the save-importing mechanic for a long time, and I think that's unfortunate.
Well, the only notable company that's doing it is Bioware and I don't think they're going to stop. I would like to see more of that happen in the future, though.
I'm less confident with EA calling the shots
but then I get a bee in my bonnet whenever somebody says "lol Acti-Blizzard", so maybe I'm jumping to conclusions unfairly.
I'm fine with Sheperd dying, the mass effect 1-3 has been sheperd's story and it's over. His death is a bookend to the story. It's over, and so is he, sure he may have gone and lived happily ever after with whatever fan fiction you liked, but death is an acceptable end.
People who complain just prove my point. They don't want Sheperd to die. The writers have done their job. They have created an emotional connection between the player and Sheperd. And death, provides (an admittedly easy) emotional reaction.
A valid complaint could have been that his death wasn't cheap, and I suppose with the combination of the weakness of the ending it can be argued that it was cheap. But it was a sacrifice which makes sense for sheperd's character.
A good death doesn't need to be a sacrifice though, a good death needs to be reflective of the character's lifestyle. Omar's death is a good example for this. He lived very much on opportunistic violence for money, and that is how he died. He died suddenly by a kid who saw a chance. Conversely sheperd's life has been about making hard, long term choices for the greater good.
Ignoring the choices made at the crucible, Sheperd made a very clear sacrifice. He will activate the crucible and sacrifice his life so that others may live. Which has many parallels with the game where Sheperd asks many people to do the same.
I think you've got a case for that being present in the narrative, but I don't know if it's presented well or accessible to the average player. If that's your ending, then it ought to be the culmination of themes that have been present through-out. That is to say, it really should be obvious to anybody, and it seems pretty clear that a lot of people feel that that isn't the case.
Although personally, based on your description of Shepard's life, I'd be inclined to agree with you. In those terms, the series seems a lot more consistent.
I gotta take issue with the notion that a writer's job is to trigger an emotional response, though. That's far too general a statement to be worth anything.
In regards to your final paragraph I would ask what is the writer's job.
At it's simplest I would say it is to make the player/reader have a reaction. Be it simple emotions or questioning themes. As such it might be better to say triggering an emotional response is a writer's tool to further engage the player/viewer.
purely to get an emotional response from your audience (instead of, say adding a new wrinkle in the plot that the other characters will be forced to address), then what you are doing is akin to kicking someone in the groin.
Yes, you got an emotional response. But your method was lazy and unsophisticated, and you shouldn't expect your audience to take it well.
I think it works well enough in ME3, by the way. I'm just responding to the idea of an "emotional response" being the only criteria a writer should care about when doing something that drastic.
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Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
And stills that is my point.
The base reason is to get an emotional response, but it needs to fit within the themes of the character.
purely to get an emotional response from your audience (instead of, say adding a new wrinkle in the plot that the other characters will be forced to address), then what you are doing is akin to kicking someone in the groin.
Yes, you got an emotional response. But your method was lazy and unsophisticated, and you shouldn't expect your audience to take it well.
I think it works well enough in ME3, by the way. I'm just responding to the idea of an "emotional response" being the only criteria a writer should care about when doing something that drastic.
I agree, spoilers regarding character deaths in ME3
Mordin's death had emotional resonance because in his last days he had turned his genius to correcting what he saw as a horrible mistake that he'd been complicit in years ago, and his last act is succeeding in that goal and finally putting his guilt to rest and being at peace as he dies (unless you were an asshole and shot him)
Thane is a man who, by his own admission, has done a lot of violent and horrible things which he previously has taken no responsibility for due to drell views on the body/soul dichotomy; in addition, due to Kepral's Syndrome he's been living under the shadow of his own death for a while now. Like Mordin, his last days are spent in healing, in this case strengthening the bond between himself and his previously neglected son as he waits for his peaceful end. While he still winds up dying violently, it's due to his efforts to protect a life for once, rather than to take it, and his last words are to wish that you too will find the peace that he has achieved
They were meaningful resolutions to those characters' story arcs and they made us feel happy that our friends had come to a fitting end
Rather than picking a guy and going, "let's box this guy up now"
purely to get an emotional response from your audience (instead of, say adding a new wrinkle in the plot that the other characters will be forced to address), then what you are doing is akin to kicking someone in the groin.
Yes, you got an emotional response. But your method was lazy and unsophisticated, and you shouldn't expect your audience to take it well.
I think it works well enough in ME3, by the way. I'm just responding to the idea of an "emotional response" being the only criteria a writer should care about when doing something that drastic.
purely to get an emotional response from your audience (instead of, say adding a new wrinkle in the plot that the other characters will be forced to address), then what you are doing is akin to kicking someone in the groin.
Yes, you got an emotional response. But your method was lazy and unsophisticated, and you shouldn't expect your audience to take it well.
I think it works well enough in ME3, by the way. I'm just responding to the idea of an "emotional response" being the only criteria a writer should care about when doing something that drastic.
I agree, spoilers regarding character deaths in ME3
Mordin's death had emotional resonance because in his last days he had turned his genius to correcting what he saw as a horrible mistake that he'd been complicit in years ago, and his last act is succeeding in that goal and finally putting his guilt to rest and being at peace as he dies (unless you were an asshole and shot him)
Thane is a man who, by his own admission, has done a lot of violent and horrible things which he previously has taken no responsibility for due to drell views on the body/soul dichotomy; in addition, due to Kepral's Syndrome he's been living under the shadow of his own death for a while now. Like Mordin, his last days are spent in healing, in this case strengthening the bond between himself and his previously neglected son as he waits for his peaceful end. While he still winds up dying violently, it's due to his efforts to protect a life for once, rather than to take it, and his last words are to wish that you too will find the peace that he has achieved
They were meaningful resolutions to those characters' story arcs and they made us feel happy that our friends had come to a fitting end
Rather than picking a guy and going, "let's box this guy up now"
this is also how i feel about that other thing and part of why i think a happy ending is dumb as butts
i mean
the last time you talk to everyone is reminiscing about the times you've had and the adventures you've gone on and saying shep's possible good-byes and the player's definite ones
nowhere left to go from there
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
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the VO for David Serif in DE:HR was on some radio show for some reason
I'm fine with Sheperd dying, the mass effect 1-3 has been sheperd's story and it's over. His death is a bookend to the story. It's over, and so is he, sure he may have gone and lived happily ever after with whatever fan fiction you liked, but death is an acceptable end.
People who complain just prove my point. They don't want Sheperd to die. The writers have done their job. They have created an emotional connection between the player and Sheperd. And death, provides (an admittedly easy) emotional reaction.
A valid complaint could have been that his death wasn't cheap, and I suppose with the combination of the weakness of the ending it can be argued that it was cheap. But it was a sacrifice which makes sense for sheperd's character.
A good death doesn't need to be a sacrifice though, a good death needs to be reflective of the character's lifestyle. Omar's death is a good example for this. He lived very much on opportunistic violence for money, and that is how he died. He died suddenly by a kid who saw a chance. Conversely sheperd's life has been about making hard, long term choices for the greater good.
Ignoring the choices made at the crucible, Sheperd made a very clear sacrifice. He will activate the crucible and sacrifice his life so that others may live. Which has many parallels with the game where Sheperd asks many people to do the same.
Satans..... hints.....
Certainly not the scale, but the notion of telling a multi-chaptered epic story isn't limited to fully-rendered 3D with multiplayer and all of the other features that ME was able to bring to bear. I'm nervous that nobody will touch the save-importing mechanic for a long time, and I think that's unfortunate.
yeah i'm willing to accept this was a localized thing because i've really only seen it in one place
they were just particularly loud about it in that place
Well, the only notable company that's doing it is Bioware and I don't think they're going to stop. I would like to see more of that happen in the future, though.
I think you've got a case for that being present in the narrative, but I don't know if it's presented well or accessible to the average player. If that's your ending, then it ought to be the culmination of themes that have been present through-out. That is to say, it really should be obvious to anybody, and it seems pretty clear that a lot of people feel that that isn't the case.
Although personally, based on your description of Shepard's life, I'd be inclined to agree with you. In those terms, the series seems a lot more consistent.
I gotta take issue with the notion that a writer's job is to trigger an emotional response, though. That's far too general a statement to be worth anything.
I wish Blizzard would hurry up and jump on that band wagon.
It's like riding a horse made of money and simply watching a train made of money steam right past you.
Sure, you have a money horse, but money train.
I'm less confident with EA calling the shots
but then I get a bee in my bonnet whenever somebody says "lol Acti-Blizzard", so maybe I'm jumping to conclusions unfairly.
Time will tell!
"Angry Arakkoa"
They're just so furious about the Quilboar taking their eggs.
In regards to your final paragraph I would ask what is the writer's job.
At it's simplest I would say it is to make the player/reader have a reaction. Be it simple emotions or questioning themes. As such it might be better to say triggering an emotional response is a writer's tool to further engage the player/viewer.
Satans..... hints.....
Yes, you got an emotional response. But your method was lazy and unsophisticated, and you shouldn't expect your audience to take it well.
I think it works well enough in ME3, by the way. I'm just responding to the idea of an "emotional response" being the only criteria a writer should care about when doing something that drastic.
The base reason is to get an emotional response, but it needs to fit within the themes of the character.
Satans..... hints.....
Your "people who complain just prove my point" threw me off.
Because no, they don't inherently do that.
I agree, spoilers regarding character deaths in ME3
Thane is a man who, by his own admission, has done a lot of violent and horrible things which he previously has taken no responsibility for due to drell views on the body/soul dichotomy; in addition, due to Kepral's Syndrome he's been living under the shadow of his own death for a while now. Like Mordin, his last days are spent in healing, in this case strengthening the bond between himself and his previously neglected son as he waits for his peaceful end. While he still winds up dying violently, it's due to his efforts to protect a life for once, rather than to take it, and his last words are to wish that you too will find the peace that he has achieved
They were meaningful resolutions to those characters' story arcs and they made us feel happy that our friends had come to a fitting end
Rather than picking a guy and going, "let's box this guy up now"
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
what do they think we ought to do
"horde loot"
this is also how i feel about that other thing and part of why i think a happy ending is dumb as butts
i mean
nowhere left to go from there
no, an army of loot.
that's a racial stereotype man, i expected better of you.
But only the hot ones.
With Dichotomy that's always your first mistake
if the giant pile of treasure fits, wear it
i
you don't know anything about dragons, do you?
Kill things.
Eat them.
Secretly run Cash for Gold services.
Why I fear the ocean.
my first reaction is to say "hey, that's not fair", but no, it is
you're confusing dragons with the mafia again.
unless it's a dragon mafia.
then you're right.
Dosh 4 Gold is secretly run by dragons. The truth is out there!
Why I fear the ocean.
they're the sticky horse-things that drag you underwater, right
I'm pretty sure those are mermen.
Or Beta Ray Bill in scuba gear.
Why I fear the ocean.