Glad it's that much. Given they already tried to run, wish it was more, or flat out denied.
Waiting for the conservative numbnut brigade to make them the next cause celeb. An still reading reports, but there's got to be an angle they'll exploit where they're the victims here.
I'm sure they'll make bail but I figure it's 50/50 if right wing media makes a go at if he was justified or a secret leftist. His parents might help make either case to help their own.
I'm sure either way they'll be a lot of "This is a mental health issue" sprinkled in.
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Cash bail remains a stupid tragedy. They are a clear flight risk. They should be held until trial regardless of if they can scrounge up $100k/ take out a second mortgage or not.
Glad it's that much. Given they already tried to run, wish it was more, or flat out denied.
Waiting for the conservative numbnut brigade to make them the next cause celeb. An still reading reports, but there's got to be an angle they'll exploit where they're the victims here.
This is the weird thing. I think they're assholes and terrible people and parents but I don't know if they get convicted for that. Like, I don't think I'd take an even money bet they would do jail time....if they hadn't run. Now they've just publicly admitted in a national news story that they think they fucked up. If they had stayed, maybe tried to spin it in some stupid right wing fashion, they would have probably gotten away with it and gotten their legal fees paid!
They are either very dumb or there is worse stuff than has been released publicly still to come.
The legal theory under which they are charged with manslaughter is new and untested as far as I know. Seems like the kind of thing a frustrated Jack McCoy would do on Law and Order, not a real life thing. Running from it is insane, especially because it means they know they are morally culpable.
Like, they're clearly guilty of some misdemeanors under Michigan law, but would probably be fined and get at most a couple weeks.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Glad it's that much. Given they already tried to run, wish it was more, or flat out denied.
Waiting for the conservative numbnut brigade to make them the next cause celeb. An still reading reports, but there's got to be an angle they'll exploit where they're the victims here.
This is the weird thing. I think they're assholes and terrible people and parents but I don't know if they get convicted for that. Like, I don't think I'd take an even money bet they would do jail time....if they hadn't run. Now they've just publicly admitted in a national news story that they think they fucked up. If they had stayed, maybe tried to spin it in some stupid right wing fashion, they would have probably gotten away with it and gotten their legal fees paid!
They are either very dumb or there is worse stuff than has been released publicly still to come.
I suspect it's both. They both appear to be massive idiots and really awful parents who decided to mostly ignore that they had a mentally troubled kid (or possibly enabled/encouraged it). But the mother also clearly fell down the Trump hole and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out they were grooming their son to do it.
Yeah, Pioneer High in Ann Arbor handled things very poorly on Thursday. They sent out a vague email that contributed to the unease, then basically let the kids leave, no announcements to the students or anything. And so the district shut down again yesterday. Now we've used 4 days and haven't had any weather issues yet.
Here's what we know (and this is super early in the game so we'll see where it goes, this may be the tip of the iceberg or some of this may not even see court):
-they bought the gun and did not purchase any kind of lock or safe
-they had fought the school to keep him in class the very day of the attack
-the parents knew the gun was not in its usually storage spot AFTER the meeting at school
Now the rest comes from police statements about text history that hasn't itself been released, but supposedly that history shows:
-the mother confirmed the boy had the gun with him and told him not to get caught and he wouldn't be in trouble
-she ascertained his intent before the attack and communicated with him about it
-she did not contact the school or police
-she texted him during the attack, unclear if he responded
There's points on both lists that could uphold a conviction on... Something, maybe not manslaughter, but charges can be amended and leading with that makes a lot of interstate/international dealings more expedited, because it was VERY clear they were fleeing and their lawyer knew it and was covering (he arranged a fake appointment for them to turn themselves in and then gave a false location and story for why they didn't show) .
Yeah, Pioneer High in Ann Arbor handled things very poorly on Thursday. They sent out a vague email that contributed to the unease, then basically let the kids leave, no announcements to the students or anything. And so the district shut down again yesterday. Now we've used 4 days and haven't had any weather issues yet.
You got more than the staff did, for what it's worth.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I can't imagine being a parent or a teacher in the United States and having to live in fear of this stuff.
Imagine a sword is always dangling over your head. It can drop at any moment and completely destroy your life. It probably won’t drop on you, but the threat is always there. You learn to ignore it because you have to, otherwise you can’t function.
I can honestly say that I fucking hate these parents. Their awful, childish behavior got people killed. I genuinely hate their fucking guts and hope their lives are nothing but misery and regret from now on.
Yeah, Pioneer High in Ann Arbor handled things very poorly on Thursday. They sent out a vague email that contributed to the unease, then basically let the kids leave, no announcements to the students or anything. And so the district shut down again yesterday. Now we've used 4 days and haven't had any weather issues yet.
You got more than the staff did, for what it's worth.
And it was fun the next day when they had that meeting and every person went and blamed social media. :rotate:
There's points on both lists that could uphold a conviction on... Something, maybe not manslaughter, but charges can be amended and leading with that makes a lot of interstate/international dealings more expedited, because it was VERY clear they were fleeing and their lawyer knew it and was covering (he arranged a fake appointment for them to turn themselves in and then gave a false location and story for why they didn't show) .
My depth of American law knowledge is all from TV, so I don't know how much trouble the lawyer can be in for this, but I'd like to learn.
He could get in a lot of trouble, but I doubt he will - lawyers are a self policing profession, the people who would punish him are other lawyers and their punishments would be against his standing in the legal profession.
Professions that police themselves are notoriously resistant to imposing any real punishments. If you follow DMCA trolling at all, you might recognize the name Liebowitz, who had hundreds of trips to multiple state disciplinary boards and thousands of sanctions before getting suspended, and he's still not permanently disbarred.
I mean, Jack Thompson took decades to finally get put down and even then he was going to get a slap on the wrist until he started directly threatening the lawyers on his disciplinary review board and it became personal.
Hevach on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Here's what we know (and this is super early in the game so we'll see where it goes, this may be the tip of the iceberg or some of this may not even see court):
-they bought the gun and did not purchase any kind of lock or safe
-they had fought the school to keep him in class the very day of the attack
-the parents knew the gun was not in its usually storage spot AFTER the meeting at school
Now the rest comes from police statements about text history that hasn't itself been released, but supposedly that history shows:
-the mother confirmed the boy had the gun with him and told him not to get caught and he wouldn't be in trouble
-she ascertained his intent before the attack and communicated with him about it
-she did not contact the school or police
-she texted him during the attack, unclear if he responded
There's points on both lists that could uphold a conviction on... Something, maybe not manslaughter, but charges can be amended and leading with that makes a lot of interstate/international dealings more expedited, because it was VERY clear they were fleeing and their lawyer knew it and was covering (he arranged a fake appointment for them to turn themselves in and then gave a false location and story for why they didn't show) .
I thought the mother said not to get caught again with the drawings, or maybe looking through his phone for places to get ammo? First I've heard about the mother telling him not to get caught with the gun.
This is gonna be one of those things with a lot of misinformation, huh
Here's what we know (and this is super early in the game so we'll see where it goes, this may be the tip of the iceberg or some of this may not even see court):
-they bought the gun and did not purchase any kind of lock or safe
-they had fought the school to keep him in class the very day of the attack
-the parents knew the gun was not in its usually storage spot AFTER the meeting at school
Now the rest comes from police statements about text history that hasn't itself been released, but supposedly that history shows:
-the mother confirmed the boy had the gun with him and told him not to get caught and he wouldn't be in trouble
-she ascertained his intent before the attack and communicated with him about it
-she did not contact the school or police
-she texted him during the attack, unclear if he responded
There's points on both lists that could uphold a conviction on... Something, maybe not manslaughter, but charges can be amended and leading with that makes a lot of interstate/international dealings more expedited, because it was VERY clear they were fleeing and their lawyer knew it and was covering (he arranged a fake appointment for them to turn themselves in and then gave a false location and story for why they didn't show) .
I thought the mother said not to get caught again with the drawings, or maybe looking through his phone for places to get ammo? First I've heard about the mother telling him not to get caught with the gun.
This is gonna be one of those things with a lot of misinformation, huh
Probably, this kind of conflicting stuff always starts when you're dealing with a plagiarism chain in the news where MLive is copying the local paper and CNN is copying MLive and Fox is making it up as they go... And the police will probably clam up now that the parents are in custody so nothing will get clarified until the trial which is months away.
Between the crap going on in Three Rivers (teachers had gay pride flags on display in their classrooms in at least the middle school, somebody apparently made a legal threat or complaint or something, resulting in the principal folding like a card table and declaring the flags had to come down- leading to one teacher resigning in protest in the middle of the school day) and in Vicksburg (a student at the middle school was wearing a pride flag like a cape, and another student tried to yank it off their backs, and all of the shootings going on in this state... just fucking yikes.
And did the administration even call things off yesterday, after all that madness, with everything going on?
O'Neill said he did not send students home Friday since crisis teams had already been at the school to help students cope with Tuesday's event.
"We're hoping the disruption happened today, we can start healing from this and begin doing the work we're committed to doing," O'Neill said.
LOL, of course not. The response to threats of shooting up a protest at a middle school shouldn't be to fucking go "*shrug* No need to cancel classes, this is what the crisis team is for. Carry on."
It reads like they're hoping this will have put paid to the protest so they can sweep this whole mess under the rug and out of sight.
Between the crap going on in Three Rivers (teachers had gay pride flags on display in their classrooms in at least the middle school, somebody apparently made a legal threat or complaint or something, resulting in the principal folding like a card table and declaring the flags had to come down- leading to one teacher resigning in protest in the middle of the school day) and in Vicksburg (a student at the middle school was wearing a pride flag like a cape, and another student tried to yank it off their backs, and all of the shootings going on in this state... just fucking yikes.
And did the administration even call things off yesterday, after all that madness, with everything going on?
O'Neill said he did not send students home Friday since crisis teams had already been at the school to help students cope with Tuesday's event.
"We're hoping the disruption happened today, we can start healing from this and begin doing the work we're committed to doing," O'Neill said.
LOL, of course not. The response to threats of shooting up a protest at a middle school shouldn't be to fucking go "*shrug* No need to cancel classes, this is what the crisis team is for. Carry on."
It reads like they're hoping this will have put paid to the protest so they can sweep this whole mess under the rug and out of sight.
That's just schools preparing kids for the modern workplace.
The sequence of events, as I heard directly from a recording of the press conference/announcement of the charges:
Son was spotted shopping for ammo by teacher, teacher reported, school contacts mother, mother's response was the "lol don't get caught text"
Father buys gun with son present, claims on federal forms the gun is for himself
Son posts on social media a picture of the gun with the caption claiming it was his new gun
Mother posts on social media they were out trying their new Christmas presents with a picture of them at the shooting range.
Teacher finds drawing, takes picture and contacts the school admin, admin contact parents to come pick up son. By the time the parents arrived the drawing had been altered by scribbling out what we're obvious cries for help. School says to get the boy help and asks they take him home, parents refuse.
Father gets home, hears about the shooting and finds the gun was missing and calls 911 to say the gun is missing and thinks his son is the shooter
Shooter's mother texts him not to do it.
Parents refuse to allow the police to question their son, attain a lawyer, and clam up like they think they can mount a defense to save their son from prison.
I'm guessing they realized they were really fucked when they were charged and panicked did the stupid thing by trying to run. Now they should be extra super fucked
Edit: ALL of this happened after the Thanksgiving break. This kid was completely and utterly failed by his parents. There must have been so many warning signs before the gun was bought saying that it was a bad idea
It’s absolutely wild that their son killed 4 kids and somehow they’ve become the bigger story and almost more hated. Like man that’s a feat.
Maybe because we’re used to shooters now, used to nothing changing, and in most cases the parents of shooters are hidden figures, that this has become a point of diversion from the horrifically “normal” narrative
But man, trying to illegally go to Canada and abandoning your child to his fate. We definitely know where the kid got his arrogance and lack of empathy from
It’s absolutely wild that their son killed 4 kids and somehow they’ve become the bigger story and almost more hated. Like man that’s a feat.
Maybe because we’re used to shooters now, used to nothing changing, and in most cases the parents of shooters are hidden figures, that this has become a point of diversion from the horrifically “normal” narrative
But man, trying to illegally go to Canada and abandoning your child to his fate. We definitely know where the kid got his arrogance and lack of empathy from
Seems like some people are pushing for the shooter to throw his parents under the bus.
This has farce written all over the tragedy of those killed. But it'll get clicks, and allow the rivers of blood to continue to flow as business as usual.
Kid probably has a legit defense by saying that his parents were neglectful in ignoring obvious signs of mental distress.
By charging him as an adult I'm betting that the prosecutor did so to get around that defense. Which is a double ballsy move and I hope they're preparing themselves for the shitshow that the trial is going to be.
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It’s absolutely wild that their son killed 4 kids and somehow they’ve become the bigger story and almost more hated. Like man that’s a feat.
Maybe because we’re used to shooters now, used to nothing changing, and in most cases the parents of shooters are hidden figures, that this has become a point of diversion from the horrifically “normal” narrative
But man, trying to illegally go to Canada and abandoning your child to his fate. We definitely know where the kid got his arrogance and lack of empathy from
When right wing troll becomes your personality, bad things can happen. It’s not surprising these people are shitheads and I suspect a lot of the hatred for them is informed by this fact. Last I heard cops were saying neither parent had expressed much in the way of remorse.
So I guess we have this bit of paranoia to look forward to; the right wing is already trying to get its culture war hackles up, going by this piece from The Hill, fearmongering that the shooting will be parleyed by dastardly liberal media into… a crusade against white domestic terrorism
Got to admit, did not expect “the someodd-thousandth mass shooting in America gets adopted as a new front by paranoid white folks afraid of being accused of being racist on the basis of the shooter being white” to come up in the culture war bingo.
It's still surprising and infuriating how nakedly the fascists appropriate progressive language in order to promote their own agenda.
It’s amazing, like the dichotomy between white mass shooters and any black suspect always gets reported with the most sympathetic images of the white suspect, but black folks will get the most intimidating images they have on hand…
…so now you have the right actively realizing they can weaponize that into “They want to make you scared of nice white people!!!”
It looks like Oxford Schools are in full cover your ass mode right now, and aren't allowing Nessel (Michigan's AG) to conduct a comprehensive investigation into the shooting.
I'm not quite clear why this is a voluntary thing they can simply decline, and of course the Department of Attorney General will continue to support the existing investigations, but with all the questions about the morning of the shooting and real questions about the school failing to take steps that may have prevented the shooting, a thorough 3rd party review is really needed.
It looks like Oxford Schools are in full cover your ass mode right now, and aren't allowing Nessel (Michigan's AG) to conduct a comprehensive investigation into the shooting.
I'm not quite clear why this is a voluntary thing they can simply decline, and of course the Department of Attorney General will continue to support the existing investigations, but with all the questions about the morning of the shooting and real questions about the school failing to take steps that may have prevented the shooting, a thorough 3rd party review is really needed.
It looks like Oxford Schools are in full cover your ass mode right now, and aren't allowing Nessel (Michigan's AG) to conduct a comprehensive investigation into the shooting.
I'm not quite clear why this is a voluntary thing they can simply decline, and of course the Department of Attorney General will continue to support the existing investigations, but with all the questions about the morning of the shooting and real questions about the school failing to take steps that may have prevented the shooting, a thorough 3rd party review is really needed.
It likely won't be now that they have decided against being amicable. Same with courts and committees. You ask nicely, and then you ask with a subpoena.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Considering that the USA, as a whole, is unwilling to actually address any of the root causes of these shootings, I can't say I blame the school district for not wanting to get on the sharp end of an investigation that'll likely pin as much blame on them as possible.
Even if the district handled this situation perfectly, and I'm not sure how much should be expected when the student lied and his parents backed him up, the only thing that I can see coming is an even worse experience for students. "Welcome to your first day of school, we'd like you to hand over access to all your social media accounts for monitoring. Your curriculum will include monthly doses of PTSD via our active shooter drills while simultaneously being treated as a potential lethal threat by our public safety officers."
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I'm sure they'll make bail but I figure it's 50/50 if right wing media makes a go at if he was justified or a secret leftist. His parents might help make either case to help their own.
I'm sure either way they'll be a lot of "This is a mental health issue" sprinkled in.
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Cash bail remains a stupid tragedy. They are a clear flight risk. They should be held until trial regardless of if they can scrounge up $100k/ take out a second mortgage or not.
This is the weird thing. I think they're assholes and terrible people and parents but I don't know if they get convicted for that. Like, I don't think I'd take an even money bet they would do jail time....if they hadn't run. Now they've just publicly admitted in a national news story that they think they fucked up. If they had stayed, maybe tried to spin it in some stupid right wing fashion, they would have probably gotten away with it and gotten their legal fees paid!
They are either very dumb or there is worse stuff than has been released publicly still to come.
Like, they're clearly guilty of some misdemeanors under Michigan law, but would probably be fined and get at most a couple weeks.
It's terrifying. I have to fight the dread pretty frequently, and it makes me want to home school even though I know that's impossible.
I suspect it's both. They both appear to be massive idiots and really awful parents who decided to mostly ignore that they had a mentally troubled kid (or possibly enabled/encouraged it). But the mother also clearly fell down the Trump hole and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out they were grooming their son to do it.
The parents sound like real pieces of work though.
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-they bought the gun and did not purchase any kind of lock or safe
-they had fought the school to keep him in class the very day of the attack
-the parents knew the gun was not in its usually storage spot AFTER the meeting at school
Now the rest comes from police statements about text history that hasn't itself been released, but supposedly that history shows:
-the mother confirmed the boy had the gun with him and told him not to get caught and he wouldn't be in trouble
-she ascertained his intent before the attack and communicated with him about it
-she did not contact the school or police
-she texted him during the attack, unclear if he responded
There's points on both lists that could uphold a conviction on... Something, maybe not manslaughter, but charges can be amended and leading with that makes a lot of interstate/international dealings more expedited, because it was VERY clear they were fleeing and their lawyer knew it and was covering (he arranged a fake appointment for them to turn themselves in and then gave a false location and story for why they didn't show) .
You got more than the staff did, for what it's worth.
I can honestly say that I fucking hate these parents. Their awful, childish behavior got people killed. I genuinely hate their fucking guts and hope their lives are nothing but misery and regret from now on.
And it was fun the next day when they had that meeting and every person went and blamed social media. :rotate:
Professions that police themselves are notoriously resistant to imposing any real punishments. If you follow DMCA trolling at all, you might recognize the name Liebowitz, who had hundreds of trips to multiple state disciplinary boards and thousands of sanctions before getting suspended, and he's still not permanently disbarred.
I mean, Jack Thompson took decades to finally get put down and even then he was going to get a slap on the wrist until he started directly threatening the lawyers on his disciplinary review board and it became personal.
I thought the mother said not to get caught again with the drawings, or maybe looking through his phone for places to get ammo? First I've heard about the mother telling him not to get caught with the gun.
This is gonna be one of those things with a lot of misinformation, huh
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Probably, this kind of conflicting stuff always starts when you're dealing with a plagiarism chain in the news where MLive is copying the local paper and CNN is copying MLive and Fox is making it up as they go... And the police will probably clam up now that the parents are in custody so nothing will get clarified until the trial which is months away.
There's more to the Vicksburg story, too- there was a planned student walkout and protest at Vicksburg Middle School over this, but thanks to the shootings in Oxford stirring things up, people started a shit-ton of rumors that the protest at the middle school was going to be the target of a drive-by, and that more rumors were swirling about that someone was going to be bringing a gun to the protest. So that put paid to the protest and traumatized plenty more students who were thinking they were possibly going to be shot because they were out protesting.
And did the administration even call things off yesterday, after all that madness, with everything going on?
O'Neill said he did not send students home Friday since crisis teams had already been at the school to help students cope with Tuesday's event.
"We're hoping the disruption happened today, we can start healing from this and begin doing the work we're committed to doing," O'Neill said.
LOL, of course not. The response to threats of shooting up a protest at a middle school shouldn't be to fucking go "*shrug* No need to cancel classes, this is what the crisis team is for. Carry on."
It reads like they're hoping this will have put paid to the protest so they can sweep this whole mess under the rug and out of sight.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
That's just schools preparing kids for the modern workplace.
But just Jesus damn, this whole situation and series of events, what in the holy hell
Son was spotted shopping for ammo by teacher, teacher reported, school contacts mother, mother's response was the "lol don't get caught text"
Father buys gun with son present, claims on federal forms the gun is for himself
Son posts on social media a picture of the gun with the caption claiming it was his new gun
Mother posts on social media they were out trying their new Christmas presents with a picture of them at the shooting range.
Teacher finds drawing, takes picture and contacts the school admin, admin contact parents to come pick up son. By the time the parents arrived the drawing had been altered by scribbling out what we're obvious cries for help. School says to get the boy help and asks they take him home, parents refuse.
Father gets home, hears about the shooting and finds the gun was missing and calls 911 to say the gun is missing and thinks his son is the shooter
Shooter's mother texts him not to do it.
Parents refuse to allow the police to question their son, attain a lawyer, and clam up like they think they can mount a defense to save their son from prison.
I'm guessing they realized they were really fucked when they were charged and panicked did the stupid thing by trying to run. Now they should be extra super fucked
Edit: ALL of this happened after the Thanksgiving break. This kid was completely and utterly failed by his parents. There must have been so many warning signs before the gun was bought saying that it was a bad idea
Maybe because we’re used to shooters now, used to nothing changing, and in most cases the parents of shooters are hidden figures, that this has become a point of diversion from the horrifically “normal” narrative
But man, trying to illegally go to Canada and abandoning your child to his fate. We definitely know where the kid got his arrogance and lack of empathy from
Seems like some people are pushing for the shooter to throw his parents under the bus.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/4208355/ethan-crumbley-parents-blame-shooting/
"Ethan Crumbley ‘could receive a lighter sentence if he turns the blame on parents for giving him gun,’ expert claims"
This has farce written all over the tragedy of those killed. But it'll get clicks, and allow the rivers of blood to continue to flow as business as usual.
Not even just ignoring, but actively refusing to take the warning signs that the school explicitly told them needed to be addressed.
By charging him as an adult I'm betting that the prosecutor did so to get around that defense. Which is a double ballsy move and I hope they're preparing themselves for the shitshow that the trial is going to be.
Got to admit, did not expect “the someodd-thousandth mass shooting in America gets adopted as a new front by paranoid white folks afraid of being accused of being racist on the basis of the shooter being white” to come up in the culture war bingo.
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It’s amazing, like the dichotomy between white mass shooters and any black suspect always gets reported with the most sympathetic images of the white suspect, but black folks will get the most intimidating images they have on hand…
…so now you have the right actively realizing they can weaponize that into “They want to make you scared of nice white people!!!”
I'm not quite clear why this is a voluntary thing they can simply decline, and of course the Department of Attorney General will continue to support the existing investigations, but with all the questions about the morning of the shooting and real questions about the school failing to take steps that may have prevented the shooting, a thorough 3rd party review is really needed.
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2021/12/07/oxford-community-schools-decline-michigan-ags-offer-to-launch-investigation-into-shooting-i-am-extremely-disappointed/
I'll put money down that this has it's roots in Republicans stripping powers away from Executive positions, when the Executive is a Democrat.
It likely won't be now that they have decided against being amicable. Same with courts and committees. You ask nicely, and then you ask with a subpoena.
Even if the district handled this situation perfectly, and I'm not sure how much should be expected when the student lied and his parents backed him up, the only thing that I can see coming is an even worse experience for students. "Welcome to your first day of school, we'd like you to hand over access to all your social media accounts for monitoring. Your curriculum will include monthly doses of PTSD via our active shooter drills while simultaneously being treated as a potential lethal threat by our public safety officers."