Angry, you are fooling yourself if you believe that after making expose armor and sunder stack that blizzard wouldn't then raise mob armor values to compensate thus negating the stacking effectively.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
blizzard has already upped the armor levels of mobs by an extreme amount and i didn't petition for them to be usable together.
On another note, I think I will be trying this after our Kara runs this weekend. Gonna see how well it does in PvP vs my old Shadowstep build, maybe spend the weekend getting some honor for the PvP Dagger or something since my daggers are pure ass at this point.
Any comments on it? I opted out of Imp. Ambush because well, if I'm not Cheapshotting something, i'll be opening with Mutilate. Also no Imp Evisc since that will be completely replaced by Envenom. The only thing I'm unsure of is the use of Shiv since I haven't really played with a poison heavy build in a long ass time. Where does Shiv fit into a build like that?
On another note, I think I will be trying this after our Kara runs this weekend. Gonna see how well it does in PvP vs my old Shadowstep build, maybe spend the weekend getting some honor for the PvP Dagger or something since my daggers are pure ass at this point.
Any comments on it? I opted out of Imp. Ambush because well, if I'm not Cheapshotting something, i'll be opening with Mutilate. Also no Imp Evisc since that will be completely replaced by Envenom. The only thing I'm unsure of is the use of Shiv since I haven't really played with a poison heavy build in a long ass time. Where does Shiv fit into a build like that?
note~ ive never used Mutilate, so my advice is not based on practice.
why imp bs if you have Mute? will you genuinely use it? Ruthlessness might be better ;o
serrated blades, but Vile may be a better choice for you in the pve aspect, they should break pretty even in pvp. unless you have a feral druid with you alot to mangle & buff your rupture.
Oh christ, yeah I totally didn't mean to put points in Imp BS.
As for the Vile Poisons, I've never even thought to compare it to Serrated Blades. It seems that Serrated Blades would be a bigger DPS boost but I honestly don't know, anyone have first hand info on that?
as for shiv, i think you dont use it unless you need an emergency poison app or cant get rear positional. CP gen and DPS will both be better with Mute.
My guild just uses rolls for Karazhan and, being that it was our first time in there, we used rolls for Gruul's Lair the other night too. I lost rolls on both my tier 4 helm and shoulders to our two new pallies. Damn pallies are ruining my racket here.
Also, 25-man bosses dropping one turn-in is pretty shitty. It would take fucking forever to get anywhere near most of the raid geared. A lot of people never got their pieces in the 40-mans, so let's make it take even longer in the future.
My guild just uses rolls for Karazhan and, being that it was our first time in there, we used rolls for Gruul's Lair the other night too. I lost rolls on both my tier 4 helm and shoulders to our two new pallies. Damn pallies are ruining my racket here.
Also, 25-man bosses dropping one turn-in is pretty shitty. It would take fucking forever to get anywhere near most of the raid geared. A lot of people never got their pieces in the 40-mans, so let's make it take even longer in the future.
The upside is that by and large, tier 4 sucks shit, so there should be less people rolling on most pieces.
My guild just uses rolls for Karazhan and, being that it was our first time in there, we used rolls for Gruul's Lair the other night too. I lost rolls on both my tier 4 helm and shoulders to our two new pallies. Damn pallies are ruining my racket here.
Also, 25-man bosses dropping one turn-in is pretty shitty. It would take fucking forever to get anywhere near most of the raid geared. A lot of people never got their pieces in the 40-mans, so let's make it take even longer in the future.
Not necessarily. On things like Rag, it was 2 pant drops ( :winky: ) per 40 people. Twp of which could be classes that you don't even have (Shaman/Paladin). Now it is 1 drop per 25. Yeah it's a little bit less statistically but given the drops can be used by multiple classes, you are almost guaranteed someone will be able to use it as opposed to "Oh wow look, two Judgement leggings and zero Paladins. AWESOMESAUCE"
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
the rogue shoulders are awful, you don't want those anyways.
as for mut build, why not both vile and serrated?
oh i see your build now.
well, camo is useless pve, i would much rather have mod, initiative and serrated blades. initiative pretty much guarantees that no matter what you have 5 cp after your ks mut. it's a pvp talent that has some use in pve. improved poisons is nice, but definitely not necessary. i used to run with 4/5 in imp poisons and honestly i haven't noticed much difference in poison application while raiding. envenom with vile poisons is so good that you don't even need to worry about using 5cp/5poisons. a 3 point envenom crit hits for me harder then a 5 point evis crit on pretty much every mob and i have 2 in imp evis for pvp. you also want to be tossing out finishers as much as possible while maintaning a mut string so that you never lose find weakness.
Edit2- Is anyone else annoyed as hell at the second tier talents for Assassination? I mean fucking hell those talents all suck ass. Worst 5 points wasted evar.
the rogue shoulders are awful, you don't want those anyways.
as for mut build, why not both vile and serrated?
oh i see your build now.
well, camo is useless pve, i would much rather have mod, initiative and serrated blades. initiative pretty much guarantees that no matter what you have 5 cp after your ks mut. it's a pvp talent that has some use in pve. improved poisons is nice, but definitely not necessary. i used to run with 4/5 in imp poisons and honestly i haven't noticed much difference in poison application while raiding. envenom with vile poisons is so good that you don't even need to worry about using 5cp/5poisons. a 3 point envenom crit hits for me harder then a 5 point evis crit on pretty much every mob and i have 2 in imp evis for pvp. you also want to be tossing out finishers as much as possible while maintaning a mut string so that you never lose find weakness.
the rogue shoulders are awful, you don't want those anyways.
as for mut build, why not both vile and serrated?
oh i see your build now.
well, camo is useless pve, i would much rather have mod, initiative and serrated blades. initiative pretty much guarantees that no matter what you have 5 cp after your ks mut. it's a pvp talent that has some use in pve. improved poisons is nice, but definitely not necessary. i used to run with 4/5 in imp poisons and honestly i haven't noticed much difference in poison application while raiding. envenom with vile poisons is so good that you don't even need to worry about using 5cp/5poisons. a 3 point envenom crit hits for me harder then a 5 point evis crit on pretty much every mob and i have 2 in imp evis for pvp. you also want to be tossing out finishers as much as possible while maintaning a mut string so that you never lose find weakness.
i guess you didn't see my edit.
Yeah completely missed that. As well as Initiative, that is definitely a required talent that I completely forgot to put into the build.
I like Camo over MoD because of the quick out of stealth cooldown which has saved my ass many times as well as the speed increase, with fleet footed I will be hauling ass while stealthed. MoD just seems underwhelming to me and only really useful in PvP against other Rogues.
So after fine tuning it a bit, this looks pretty nice.
I just hate giving up Imp Poisons. But hey i'm only losing 6% chance which I think is the lesser of two evils considering what else i'd be giving up taking points from anywhere else.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
Feel free to switch endurance and imp sprint depending on your preference. Also you only need fleet footed if you don't have the minor speed increase boot enchant or the meta gem. If all you want is the speed and not the snare resist you could considering putting those points elsewhere.
No vile poisons or imp poisons, so I put the points in imp evis instead. Mainly because deadly poison is worthless in pvp. Cripple is required on one hand and wound or mind-numbing are both far better choices than deadly is. So no envenoms.
I found after playing a mut/sub build for a long time that the damage was too inconsistent. Either I'd get a few huge crits and completely own, or I'd get a string of non-crits and be left thinking what the hell just happened. Switching to 41/20 mut/combat gives a lot more consistancy to your damage. Dual wield spec > opportunity for mutilate, and it also boosts your white damage a lot. Plus you get another root/snare breaker with imp sprint. And precision is always nice. The only thing I miss from sub is imp sap, and thats only when I'm running instances.
Wait what? That's like the opposite of the norm. First is a 5-man/PvP (modified with a poison talent instead of initiative), second is pretty much raiding mutilate if you take the talents from dodge/parry and put them in SnD. I know I'd rater PvP/5-man with this than the one you have (preference though), and the 'standard' 41/20 for raiding. Interested in why you take the other. 41/0/20 (or 41/3/17) gives you initiative/imp.ambush, some points in MoD, higher dmg mutilates, and elusiveness which is the best CD-lowering talent and one of the best PvP talents around.
As for expose, only time I find it to be actually worth using is against resto shammies and really well geared Spriests. Sure, it helps, but hardly the best finisher there is. Add to that, against Spriests, a 2/3 pointer (depending on improved or not) is enough. I'd use it against arms/fury warrs, but unless I'm combat I can't survive long enough without either stunlock (needs most CP for KS/maybe evis) or kiting (requires most CP into rupture/KS). Fully exposed warr with zerker and deathwish is fun to beat on though.
the rogue shoulders are awful, you don't want those anyways.
as for mut build, why not both vile and serrated?
oh i see your build now.
well, camo is useless pve, i would much rather have mod, initiative and serrated blades. initiative pretty much guarantees that no matter what you have 5 cp after your ks mut. it's a pvp talent that has some use in pve. improved poisons is nice, but definitely not necessary. i used to run with 4/5 in imp poisons and honestly i haven't noticed much difference in poison application while raiding. envenom with vile poisons is so good that you don't even need to worry about using 5cp/5poisons. a 3 point envenom crit hits for me harder then a 5 point evis crit on pretty much every mob and i have 2 in imp evis for pvp. you also want to be tossing out finishers as much as possible while maintaning a mut string so that you never lose find weakness.
i guess you didn't see my edit.
Yeah completely missed that. As well as Initiative, that is definitely a required talent that I completely forgot to put into the build.
I like Camo over MoD because of the quick out of stealth cooldown which has saved my ass many times as well as the speed increase, with fleet footed I will be hauling ass while stealthed. MoD just seems underwhelming to me and only really useful in PvP against other Rogues.
So after fine tuning it a bit, this looks pretty nice.
I just hate giving up Imp Poisons. But hey i'm only losing 6% chance which I think is the lesser of two evils considering what else i'd be giving up taking points from anywhere else.
Explain to me why you don't pick up Imp Eviscerate. And no, fuck you angry, imp KS isn't required in a non mutilate build.
Explain to me why you don't pick up Imp Eviscerate.
Envenom synergizes well with the poison talents that generally run with Mutilate and you don't need to be good at both.
Fuck Envenom. Eviscerate's just a fast way to shed off combo points that doesn't break CC. When are you using deadly? That's right, hardly ever. It's always wound/crippling. It's used on fights where you can just be amused with your dot damage and in fights that you should have won anyways.
And no, fuck you angry, imp KS isn't required in a non mutilate build.
10% damage boost for yourself is excellent. for your entire group/raid its insane.
This is a PvP. The 10% damage bonus is fine, but not required. No one ever won a fight saying, "Thank god you had Imp KS"
Wait what? That's like the opposite of the norm. First is a 5-man/PvP (modified with a poison talent instead of initiative), second is pretty much raiding mutilate if you take the talents from dodge/parry and put them in SnD. I know I'd rater PvP/5-man with this than the one you have (preference though), and the 'standard' 41/20 for raiding. Interested in why you take the other. 41/0/20 (or 41/3/17) gives you initiative/imp.ambush, some points in MoD, higher dmg mutilates, and elusiveness which is the best CD-lowering talent and one of the best PvP talents around.
As for expose, only time I find it to be actually worth using is against resto shammies and really well geared Spriests. Sure, it helps, but hardly the best finisher there is. Add to that, against Spriests, a 2/3 pointer (depending on improved or not) is enough. I'd use it against arms/fury warrs, but unless I'm combat I can't survive long enough without either stunlock (needs most CP for KS/maybe evis) or kiting (requires most CP into rupture/KS). Fully exposed warr with zerker and deathwish is fun to beat on though.
Well, I chose my build around arena performance. I don't instance much and don't raid at all anymore. Before I switched to combat mutilate I ran with a build much like the one you're talking about. It's good, but like I mentioned before I found it wasn't doing reliable damage. I would either get a string of crits and annihilate someone, or I'd get none and be looking at someone with a ton of health. And that's using the standard cheap shot-mutilate-kidney shot-cold blood mutilate-evis combo. So I switched to combat mut and I find it much better. First of all the mutilate damage is very close to what opportunity gives you. A bit less I think. Second, the white damage increase from dual wield spec combined with precision makes overall damage much higher with 41/20.
Elusiveness is nice, but in arena it isn't missed much. I have endurance in my build but that's more for bg honor farming than for arena battles. Most of the time the fight doesn't last long enough for those cooldowns to refresh.
As for expose armor...well in 2v2 I run with a holy pally and we are into the 1900+ ratings now. I'm finding that its pretty much impossible to burst someone down at this rating level. Everyone has too much health/resilience, as well as someone spamming heals on them (or on themselves). So even if I burst them down to 30% health, a big heal is coming soon. I'm getting much more success with an expose armor up there. Either my target dies outright soon after, or I put that much more pressure on them for heals. So they die or the healer runs out of mana.
Of course it all depends on the class combination. For some I don't bother with expose at all. But considering how useful it is vs others, I find it more than worth two talent points.
Deadly is the highest DPS poison we have. im not even Mute and i run Deadly on the OH pretty much constantly. the only time i use wound/crip is in the arenas. Remember, we're commenting on Wave's Mut build here (arent we?) which he said he wanted to be both pve and pvp viable. He (and rogues aiming to do dps in general) should be using deadly. If your goal is to dump CP's into a less than optimal finisher you can use Evisc just fine without talenting it.
In pve all the gear upgrades you get are generally going to be small boosts from item to item that add up to bump your DPS a percent or two at a time. +10% DPS that scales, for your entire party, is undeniably huge. people dont say 'wow you imp ks'd the shit outta that guy!', they say 'wow that fucker went down fast! my fireball hit for 3300!' 'yeah my BS landed for 2400' 'my Execute was 12k (but he had 100hp lewlewl)' 'gais i haev to pee afk' etc.
Deadly is the highest DPS poison we have. im not even Mute and i run Deadly on the OH pretty much constantly. the only time i use wound/crip is in the arenas. Remember, we're commenting on Wave's Mut build here (arent we?) which he said he wanted to be both pve and pvp viable. He (and rogues aiming to do dps in general) should be using deadly. If your goal is to dump CP's into a less than optimal finisher you can use Evisc just fine without talenting it.
In pve all the gear upgrades you get are generally going to be small boosts from item to item that add up to bump your DPS a percent or two at a time. +10% DPS that scales, for your entire party, is undeniably huge. people dont say 'wow you imp ks'd the shit outta that guy!', they say 'wow that fucker went down fast! my fireball hit for 3300!' 'yeah my BS landed for 2400' 'my Execute was 12k (but he had 100hp lewlewl)' 'gais i haev to pee afk' etc.
Yes, it's very high DPS. Yes, Envenom can be nice. But, I don't recall him mentioning PvEing with the build.
Of course you'd use Deadly poison PvEing, but in PvP it screws with CC. Imagine being a mage who has to deal with a crappily-geared dot happy warlock who just dots the shit outta everything. Very frustrating.I still just...don't like envenom that much.
On another note, I think I will be trying this after our Kara runs this weekend. Gonna see how well it does in PvP vs my old Shadowstep build, maybe spend the weekend getting some honor for the PvP Dagger or something since my daggers are pure ass at this point.
The beauty of mutilate is that it does well in both PvP and PvE and there's not a lot of ways to screw yourself entirely for one of those aspects of the game. Mutilate can get Imp KS and that whole line of sexy talents but in, say, a 30/0/31 build, you probably won't be able to snag imp KS over getting something like Quick Recovery. I think QR helps you more in PvP then imp KS, but it's not like you don't get that 10% to damage bonus when you come right out of stealth with that build.
PvE wise, all the fights that are a challenge or actually matter are boss fights. And unless I'm mistaken, all bosses are immune to stuns. Making imp ks pretty much worthless, aside from trash. Of course there might be the rare boss thats stunnable that I don't know about, but in general they aren't.
I agree that quick recovery is very strong for pvp. I also agree that envenom has seemed underwhelming when I've used it. Requiring a five stack of deadly on your target, just to do damage that seemed about the same as evis. AND it consumes your deadly stack. Although maybe I just didn't give it a chance, as I barely use deadly as it is and thus can't use envenom often.
PvE wise, all the fights that are a challenge or actually matter are boss fights. And unless I'm mistaken, all bosses are immune to stuns. Making imp ks pretty much worthless, aside from trash. Of course there might be the rare boss thats stunnable that I don't know about, but in general they aren't.
I agree that quick recovery is very strong for pvp. I also agree that envenom has seemed underwhelming when I've used it. Requiring a five stack of deadly on your target, just to do damage that seemed about the same as evis. AND it consumes your deadly stack. Although maybe I just didn't give it a chance, as I barely use deadly as it is and thus can't use envenom often.
I contest the only way to really "screw" yourself for going PVE or PvP with Mut is deciding to go Opp or DW Spec.
EDIT- And didn't you, like, hate Mut Wavechaser?
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
@Raavin: Well arena IS a whole other ballpark, especially in the 1900+. Personally I prefer sword/mace/fists there (Even though I'm using 30/0/31 BS ATM) although the difference isn't large untill you get to fairly high ratings. Problem with daggers in arena from my experience (which admittedly isn't as much as you, as I said only been fighting 1600 + 3v3 for a week) is if you can't burst them down really quickly (in my case premed - Ambush - KS - BS - CB evis if still alive, while a teammate lock/arcane+fire mage/oomkin nukes at the same time), it's way too easy to negate BS or mut by simply running around (BoF/abolish poison) or putting your back to a corner. This is even worse in smaller arenas due to not having the option of changing targets as much, and also since your dps matters more.
As for expose, I suppose it might have its use on clothies in long arena fights, esp. if teamed with another physical dpser. However, it doesn't do enough IMO to be worth it on anything with leather or more unless you can be certain that you'll be meleeing for most of those 30 secs. I'd rather use rupture/SnD/deadly throw (lol).
I'm lvling a warr more than playing my rogue atm, and it's reaaaaaally annoying before lvl 36 (first instant). Got zerker rage and 2 top blue weapons today (fury all the way, still a rogue at heart) making it easier, more buttons to push ftw, but having to wait for on-next-attack is ridiculously annoying.
And anyone not taking imp. KS in a 30+ sub build better have a good reason, no other talent to spend points on. Only malice, relentless, lethality (if dagger) and quick recovery is better for PvP/5-man IMO. And Imp. BS if you do 30/0/31 or a variant
Posts
hurray!
But acronyms are all cool.
Hmm, perhaps you should spend more time in the trade channel of any major city? That will make you more at ease.
Any comments on it? I opted out of Imp. Ambush because well, if I'm not Cheapshotting something, i'll be opening with Mutilate. Also no Imp Evisc since that will be completely replaced by Envenom. The only thing I'm unsure of is the use of Shiv since I haven't really played with a poison heavy build in a long ass time. Where does Shiv fit into a build like that?
Now we're really in Rouge town, dawg. I'm jumping up and down as I type this, btw.
note~ ive never used Mutilate, so my advice is not based on practice.
why imp bs if you have Mute? will you genuinely use it? Ruthlessness might be better ;o
As for the Vile Poisons, I've never even thought to compare it to Serrated Blades. It seems that Serrated Blades would be a bigger DPS boost but I honestly don't know, anyone have first hand info on that?
Fixed the build.
Vile Poisons version
Also, 25-man bosses dropping one turn-in is pretty shitty. It would take fucking forever to get anywhere near most of the raid geared. A lot of people never got their pieces in the 40-mans, so let's make it take even longer in the future.
The upside is that by and large, tier 4 sucks shit, so there should be less people rolling on most pieces.
Not necessarily. On things like Rag, it was 2 pant drops ( :winky: ) per 40 people. Twp of which could be classes that you don't even have (Shaman/Paladin). Now it is 1 drop per 25. Yeah it's a little bit less statistically but given the drops can be used by multiple classes, you are almost guaranteed someone will be able to use it as opposed to "Oh wow look, two Judgement leggings and zero Paladins. AWESOMESAUCE"
as for mut build, why not both vile and serrated?
oh i see your build now.
well, camo is useless pve, i would much rather have mod, initiative and serrated blades. initiative pretty much guarantees that no matter what you have 5 cp after your ks mut. it's a pvp talent that has some use in pve. improved poisons is nice, but definitely not necessary. i used to run with 4/5 in imp poisons and honestly i haven't noticed much difference in poison application while raiding. envenom with vile poisons is so good that you don't even need to worry about using 5cp/5poisons. a 3 point envenom crit hits for me harder then a 5 point evis crit on pretty much every mob and i have 2 in imp evis for pvp. you also want to be tossing out finishers as much as possible while maintaning a mut string so that you never lose find weakness.
Because I refuse to give up Imp KS, Fleet Footed, or Quick Recovery. I love them all.
Edit- Wait... I could probably work with this.
Edit2- Is anyone else annoyed as hell at the second tier talents for Assassination? I mean fucking hell those talents all suck ass. Worst 5 points wasted evar.
I'm combat claws, so you can probably guess which without me telling you.
i guess you didn't see my edit.
Yeah completely missed that. As well as Initiative, that is definitely a required talent that I completely forgot to put into the build.
I like Camo over MoD because of the quick out of stealth cooldown which has saved my ass many times as well as the speed increase, with fleet footed I will be hauling ass while stealthed. MoD just seems underwhelming to me and only really useful in PvP against other Rogues.
So after fine tuning it a bit, this looks pretty nice.
I just hate giving up Imp Poisons. But hey i'm only losing 6% chance which I think is the lesser of two evils considering what else i'd be giving up taking points from anywhere else.
Feel free to switch endurance and imp sprint depending on your preference. Also you only need fleet footed if you don't have the minor speed increase boot enchant or the meta gem. If all you want is the speed and not the snare resist you could considering putting those points elsewhere.
For pvp oriented, this is what I use: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whebRxMsizVohbqbbV
No vile poisons or imp poisons, so I put the points in imp evis instead. Mainly because deadly poison is worthless in pvp. Cripple is required on one hand and wound or mind-numbing are both far better choices than deadly is. So no envenoms.
I found after playing a mut/sub build for a long time that the damage was too inconsistent. Either I'd get a few huge crits and completely own, or I'd get a string of non-crits and be left thinking what the hell just happened. Switching to 41/20 mut/combat gives a lot more consistancy to your damage. Dual wield spec > opportunity for mutilate, and it also boosts your white damage a lot. Plus you get another root/snare breaker with imp sprint. And precision is always nice. The only thing I miss from sub is imp sap, and thats only when I'm running instances.
Also
As for expose, only time I find it to be actually worth using is against resto shammies and really well geared Spriests. Sure, it helps, but hardly the best finisher there is. Add to that, against Spriests, a 2/3 pointer (depending on improved or not) is enough. I'd use it against arms/fury warrs, but unless I'm combat I can't survive long enough without either stunlock (needs most CP for KS/maybe evis) or kiting (requires most CP into rupture/KS). Fully exposed warr with zerker and deathwish is fun to beat on though.
Explain to me why you don't pick up Imp Eviscerate. And no, fuck you angry, imp KS isn't required in a non mutilate build.
EDIT - bam. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0RerRizVoZAMx00h
I like this stuff better than the alternatives
works surprisingly well in arena/farming/5man/raids so far
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ibe0oxxsidVohZEMz
Want to finish Initiative..and then I have no idea really. Elusiveness? Or dropping Imp gouge to get Serrated Blades? Dunno.
10% damage boost for yourself is excellent. for your entire group/raid its insane.
meh
OH FECK. Take out what you need in camo and put it into initiative. OOPS.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ihe0RerRizVoZAMe
Well, I chose my build around arena performance. I don't instance much and don't raid at all anymore. Before I switched to combat mutilate I ran with a build much like the one you're talking about. It's good, but like I mentioned before I found it wasn't doing reliable damage. I would either get a string of crits and annihilate someone, or I'd get none and be looking at someone with a ton of health. And that's using the standard cheap shot-mutilate-kidney shot-cold blood mutilate-evis combo. So I switched to combat mut and I find it much better. First of all the mutilate damage is very close to what opportunity gives you. A bit less I think. Second, the white damage increase from dual wield spec combined with precision makes overall damage much higher with 41/20.
Elusiveness is nice, but in arena it isn't missed much. I have endurance in my build but that's more for bg honor farming than for arena battles. Most of the time the fight doesn't last long enough for those cooldowns to refresh.
As for expose armor...well in 2v2 I run with a holy pally and we are into the 1900+ ratings now. I'm finding that its pretty much impossible to burst someone down at this rating level. Everyone has too much health/resilience, as well as someone spamming heals on them (or on themselves). So even if I burst them down to 30% health, a big heal is coming soon. I'm getting much more success with an expose armor up there. Either my target dies outright soon after, or I put that much more pressure on them for heals. So they die or the healer runs out of mana.
Of course it all depends on the class combination. For some I don't bother with expose at all. But considering how useful it is vs others, I find it more than worth two talent points.
In pve all the gear upgrades you get are generally going to be small boosts from item to item that add up to bump your DPS a percent or two at a time. +10% DPS that scales, for your entire party, is undeniably huge. people dont say 'wow you imp ks'd the shit outta that guy!', they say 'wow that fucker went down fast! my fireball hit for 3300!' 'yeah my BS landed for 2400' 'my Execute was 12k (but he had 100hp lewlewl)' 'gais i haev to pee afk' etc.
Yes, it's very high DPS. Yes, Envenom can be nice. But, I don't recall him mentioning PvEing with the build.
Of course you'd use Deadly poison PvEing, but in PvP it screws with CC. Imagine being a mage who has to deal with a crappily-geared dot happy warlock who just dots the shit outta everything. Very frustrating.I still just...don't like envenom that much.
The beauty of mutilate is that it does well in both PvP and PvE and there's not a lot of ways to screw yourself entirely for one of those aspects of the game. Mutilate can get Imp KS and that whole line of sexy talents but in, say, a 30/0/31 build, you probably won't be able to snag imp KS over getting something like Quick Recovery. I think QR helps you more in PvP then imp KS, but it's not like you don't get that 10% to damage bonus when you come right out of stealth with that build.
I agree that quick recovery is very strong for pvp. I also agree that envenom has seemed underwhelming when I've used it. Requiring a five stack of deadly on your target, just to do damage that seemed about the same as evis. AND it consumes your deadly stack. Although maybe I just didn't give it a chance, as I barely use deadly as it is and thus can't use envenom often.
I contest the only way to really "screw" yourself for going PVE or PvP with Mut is deciding to go Opp or DW Spec.
EDIT- And didn't you, like, hate Mut Wavechaser?
good fucking thing we're discussing mutilate builds then isn't it?
As for expose, I suppose it might have its use on clothies in long arena fights, esp. if teamed with another physical dpser. However, it doesn't do enough IMO to be worth it on anything with leather or more unless you can be certain that you'll be meleeing for most of those 30 secs. I'd rather use rupture/SnD/deadly throw (lol).
I'm lvling a warr more than playing my rogue atm, and it's reaaaaaally annoying before lvl 36 (first instant). Got zerker rage and 2 top blue weapons today (fury all the way, still a rogue at heart) making it easier, more buttons to push ftw, but having to wait for on-next-attack is ridiculously annoying.
And anyone not taking imp. KS in a 30+ sub build better have a good reason, no other talent to spend points on. Only malice, relentless, lethality (if dagger) and quick recovery is better for PvP/5-man IMO. And Imp. BS if you do 30/0/31 or a variant