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[PA Comic] Wednesday, October 15, 2014 - Star Gourds

1235

Posts

  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    Either Tycho is an idiot, or he's mean to Gabe. Knowing him, it's probably the latter.

    Cambiataforty
  • LuncoLunco Registered User new member
    edited October 2014
    Is there a way to read the comics like you could before the site remake? Read the comic, then read the adjoining blog post from Tycho?

    edit: I've just noticed the TXT button next to the title, nm.

    Lunco on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    As it was said before in this very topic, replacing a hashtag won't help one bit.
    I'm wondering why people are so reticent to change their own labels? You can do that on the internet, you know! People do it all the time. And actually, changing the label would make a world of difference, at this point. People should fly their own banners, and do their own thing. They should be their own voice. For god's sake, they can use something other than Twitter to do it, too.

    I think I may have a little insight and/or sympathy on this one.
    It comes down (IMO) to the feeling "why should I have to be the one to concede, to sacrifice, to give way; to abandon my chosen identity, to give up my hobby and my cherished privilege? How is that fair? I was here first! What right do they have, and why aren't they being asked/told to give up anything for the sake of 'compromise'? Why do I always have to be the 'reasonable' one? Not this time! I'm tired of it, I'm done!"
    Because this is how people feel, even when they hold 9/10ths of the pie and are being asked to give up just one. Give "them" anything, the fear whispers, and they'll end up taking it all and leave "us" with nothing. (Because that's what we'd do "they" are greedy and selfish, and "we" are unjustly persecuted. Always.)

    Commander Zoom on
    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    CambiataDjiemImpactWinterSmrtnik
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    Djiem wrote: »
    Either Tycho is an idiot, or he's mean to Gabe. Knowing him, it's probably the latter.
    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/08/03

    steam_sig.png
    GreatLimmick
  • ImpactWinterImpactWinter Kansas CityRegistered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    As it was said before in this very topic, replacing a hashtag won't help one bit.
    I'm wondering why people are so reticent to change their own labels? You can do that on the internet, you know! People do it all the time. And actually, changing the label would make a world of difference, at this point. People should fly their own banners, and do their own thing. They should be their own voice. For god's sake, they can use something other than Twitter to do it, too.

    I think I may have a little insight and/or sympathy on this one.
    It comes down (IMO) to the feeling "why should I have to be the one to concede, to sacrifice, to give way; to abandon my chosen identity, to give up my hobby and my cherished privilege? How is that fair? I was here first! What right do they have, and why aren't they being asked/told to give up anything for the sake of 'compromise'? Why do I always have to be the 'reasonable' one? Not this time! I'm tired of it, I'm done!"
    Because this is how people feel, even when they hold 9/10ths of the pie and are being asked to give up just one. Give "them" anything, the fear whispers, and they'll end up taking it all and leave "us" with nothing. (Because that's what we'd do "they" are greedy and selfish, and "we" are unjustly persecuted. Always.)

    This condenses the "anguished", beating heart of GG in a nutshell. A handful of (female) voices and perspectives that, depending who you ask range in influence from "interesting" to "inconsequential" have held a mirror up to the face of "teh hardcorez" and what they see reflected makes them uncomfortable. That's life, it sucks to discover by honest mistake you have found yourself associating with villains.
    The real moral failure is sticking around or trying to "legitimize" their cause.

    Djiem
  • nxmehtanxmehta Registered User regular
    GamerGate is very clearly a disgusting, misogynist campaign against women. That's not really up for debate at this point, however the movement started.

    What I'd rather talk about is, how in 2014 did this kind of movement actually happen? What does this say about feminism? What does this say about "gamers"?

    Let's take gay rights as an example. In 2011 the majority popular opinion in the US became that gay marriage should be legal: http://xkcd.com/1431/. I think social attitudes to homosexuality have been changing fairly rapidly. There's a lot of reasons for that, but I think a big one is that lots more people are coming out, and almost everyone has a family member or close friend who is gay. At that point it's pretty hard to say that being gay is fundamentally wrong.

    But feminism (and let's remember, the basic definition of the word means that you believe in equal rights) appears to be struggling: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html. It's weird because it's not like we don't all have women in our lives that we know and love. Sure, there may be some crazy minority that hates women who will never change. But shouldn't the general populace be increasingly feminist?

    Specifically on the subject of GamerGate: who exactly are these people on the pro-GG side? It's very hard for me to imagine that any reasonable person over 30 is pro-GG. Are these basically teenage males with underdeveloped empathy/politics? Does this mean that the younger generation of males is increasingly anti-feminist, or is this something that they will essentially grow out of as they get older? For example, I remember believe some pretty dumb shit when I was that age, so I could certainly relate. But I don't think I was making death threats to women...

    The article that brought this to mind was this: http://www.theawl.com/2014/10/the-sad-parents-of-gamergate

    ImpactWinterDjiemSmoogyAegeri
  • nxmehtanxmehta Registered User regular
    The other thing I find so hard to understand about this is, yes, gaming journalism is terrible and corrupt.

    Maybe, maybe the people issuing death threats are just a crazy minority of the pro-GG crowd.

    MAYBE gaming websites have some conspiracy cooked up where they are smearing the pro-GG movement to deflect criticism of their practices.

    Let's assume all of these improbable things are true just for the sake of argument.

    Is the ethics of video games journalism really that big of a deal? Is anyone actually being harmed from this? Lots of journalism is unethical. Hell, you could probably argue that most journalism is unethical these days! If that's the case, let's get more riled up about the journalism that actually impacts people's lives.

    If the risk of being pro-GG is to ally yourself with people who are actually threatening the lives of people, maybe it's not worth it? Maybe just start over with another hashtag or something?

    I don't know. As someone who's gamed my whole life and really identifies as a "gamer", this whole thing is just so sad and embarrassing.

    DjiemGreatLimmick
  • FearghaillFearghaill If there is nothing but what we make in this world let us make goodRegistered User regular
    nxmehta wrote: »
    GamerGate is very clearly a disgusting, misogynist campaign against women. That's not really up for debate at this point, however the movement started.

    What I'd rather talk about is, how in 2014 did this kind of movement actually happen? What does this say about feminism? What does this say about "gamers"?

    Let's take gay rights as an example. In 2011 the majority popular opinion in the US became that gay marriage should be legal: http://xkcd.com/1431/. I think social attitudes to homosexuality have been changing fairly rapidly. There's a lot of reasons for that, but I think a big one is that lots more people are coming out, and almost everyone has a family member or close friend who is gay. At that point it's pretty hard to say that being gay is fundamentally wrong.

    But feminism (and let's remember, the basic definition of the word means that you believe in equal rights) appears to be struggling: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html. It's weird because it's not like we don't all have women in our lives that we know and love. Sure, there may be some crazy minority that hates women who will never change. But shouldn't the general populace be increasingly feminist?

    Specifically on the subject of GamerGate: who exactly are these people on the pro-GG side? It's very hard for me to imagine that any reasonable person over 30 is pro-GG. Are these basically teenage males with underdeveloped empathy/politics? Does this mean that the younger generation of males is increasingly anti-feminist, or is this something that they will essentially grow out of as they get older? For example, I remember believe some pretty dumb shit when I was that age, so I could certainly relate. But I don't think I was making death threats to women...

    The article that brought this to mind was this: http://www.theawl.com/2014/10/the-sad-parents-of-gamergate

    There are plenty of adults that are pro-GG, and that's what makes it so fucked up and scary.. The problem is there are plenty of people over 30 that aren't reasonable. If you think that being against women/women's rights is a thing that people grow out of, you haven't been paying attention. The Men's Rights movement, the Republican Party, the continuing widespread objectification of women in media and entertainment, the continued trend of systematically excusing rape or blaming rape victims, etc, etc, etc.

    CambiataTheCanMan
  • nxmehtanxmehta Registered User regular
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    There are plenty of adults that are pro-GG, and that's what makes it so fucked up and scary.. The problem is there are plenty of people over 30 that aren't reasonable. If you think that being against women/women's rights is a thing that people grow out of, you haven't been paying attention. The Men's Rights movement, the Republican Party, the continuing widespread objectification of women in media and entertainment, the continued trend of systematically excusing rape or blaming rape victims, etc, etc, etc.

    Yeah, those are good points. The former group I always assumed was some idiot group of bros aged 12-30 on reddit; the latter are old assholes aged 60+ who will be gone in a decade or two. This is all probably just wishful thinking though.

    So do you think that we are becoming increasingly anti-feminist as a society? But why exactly would that be? What are your thoughts on the root case?

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I don't have time to comment more right now, but this article talks a lot about what this reactionary movement might mean: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/16/of-gamers-gates-and-disco-demolition-the-roots-of-reactionary-rage.html#

    mare_imbrium
  • ImpactWinterImpactWinter Kansas CityRegistered User regular
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    nxmehta wrote: »
    GamerGate is very clearly a disgusting, misogynist campaign against women. That's not really up for debate at this point, however the movement started.

    What I'd rather talk about is, how in 2014 did this kind of movement actually happen? What does this say about feminism? What does this say about "gamers"?

    Let's take gay rights as an example. In 2011 the majority popular opinion in the US became that gay marriage should be legal: http://xkcd.com/1431/. I think social attitudes to homosexuality have been changing fairly rapidly. There's a lot of reasons for that, but I think a big one is that lots more people are coming out, and almost everyone has a family member or close friend who is gay. At that point it's pretty hard to say that being gay is fundamentally wrong.

    But feminism (and let's remember, the basic definition of the word means that you believe in equal rights) appears to be struggling: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html. It's weird because it's not like we don't all have women in our lives that we know and love. Sure, there may be some crazy minority that hates women who will never change. But shouldn't the general populace be increasingly feminist?

    Specifically on the subject of GamerGate: who exactly are these people on the pro-GG side? It's very hard for me to imagine that any reasonable person over 30 is pro-GG. Are these basically teenage males with underdeveloped empathy/politics? Does this mean that the younger generation of males is increasingly anti-feminist, or is this something that they will essentially grow out of as they get older? For example, I remember believe some pretty dumb shit when I was that age, so I could certainly relate. But I don't think I was making death threats to women...

    The article that brought this to mind was this: http://www.theawl.com/2014/10/the-sad-parents-of-gamergate

    There are plenty of adults that are pro-GG, and that's what makes it so fucked up and scary.. The problem is there are plenty of people over 30 that aren't reasonable. If you think that being against women/women's rights is a thing that people grow out of, you haven't been paying attention. The Men's Rights movement, the Republican Party, the continuing widespread objectification of women in media and entertainment, the continued trend of systematically excusing rape or blaming rape victims, etc, etc, etc.


    That tweet (aatishb's response, really) is freaking amazing.
    Centuries of gender bias in culture, religion and literature do not simply disappear in a generation or two. It's ignorant and self-defeating to think so, and that is probably the biggest obstacle for modern feminism: the attitude it's no longer necessary.

    ceresDjiemAndy JoeLuvTheMonkeyTheCanManAegeri
  • FearghaillFearghaill If there is nothing but what we make in this world let us make goodRegistered User regular
    nxmehta wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    There are plenty of adults that are pro-GG, and that's what makes it so fucked up and scary.. The problem is there are plenty of people over 30 that aren't reasonable. If you think that being against women/women's rights is a thing that people grow out of, you haven't been paying attention. The Men's Rights movement, the Republican Party, the continuing widespread objectification of women in media and entertainment, the continued trend of systematically excusing rape or blaming rape victims, etc, etc, etc.

    Yeah, those are good points. The former group I always assumed was some idiot group of bros aged 12-30 on reddit; the latter are old assholes aged 60+ who will be gone in a decade or two. This is all probably just wishful thinking though.

    So do you think that we are becoming increasingly anti-feminist as a society? But why exactly would that be? What are your thoughts on the root case?

    Honestly, at this point I think it's a realization deep down that they are "losing" and that society is going to be more equal, more inclusive whether they like it or not, so they're flailing about trying to slow the inevitable march of progress as much as they can.

    http://laurie-penny.com/why-were-winning-social-justice-warriors-and-the-new-culture-war/

    Djiem
  • nxmehtanxmehta Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    I don't have time to comment more right now, but this article talks a lot about what this reactionary movement might mean: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/16/of-gamers-gates-and-disco-demolition-the-roots-of-reactionary-rage.html#

    This is a great article. Thanks so much for sharing.

  • MooFooMooFoo Registered User regular
    nxmehta wrote: »
    Specifically on the subject of GamerGate: who exactly are these people on the pro-GG side?

    I picture something akin to a Mr Claw type character petting his MAD cat every time someone is harassed in the name of gaming ethics. Basically a faceless force fooling the sheep into doing the dirty work. Its sad to see good people with good causes, tricked into fighting for the wrong people.

  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    The SSID that I've used for my house wireless has been GamerGate for years. Now I need to change it after this move to not look like I support douchery. :x Those bastard are forcing me to reconfigure 15 wireless devices. /fwp

    Artereis on
    FearghaillPAX_SkeletorseasleepyZxerolRhesus PositivemRahmaniagoajSilverWindCrippl3Aegeri
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    MooFoo wrote: »
    nxmehta wrote: »
    Specifically on the subject of GamerGate: who exactly are these people on the pro-GG side?

    I picture something akin to a Mr Claw type character petting his MAD cat every time someone is harassed in the name of gaming ethics. Basically a faceless force fooling the sheep into doing the dirty work. Its sad to see good people with good causes, tricked into fighting for the wrong people.

    "NEXT TIME, SARKEESIAN! NEXT TIME!"

    AegeriCambiatamRahmani
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    So to return to the point on the charity donations being a "good" thing, let's see how a prominent GG supporter has been using the fact he donated. Notably, to call a group of GGers to attack a blogger on "SJW" issues on race who is not a video game journalist, not a journalist and has nothing to do with GG whatsoever. Most notably, who is this champion of GG proudly proclaiming he donated $1000 to an anti-bullying charity?

    Well, turns out he told someone to go and kill themselves. Yes. Actually did this.

    Bullying non-size zero women (Fatshamingweek).

    Saying that ADD was a "slut" sign.

    And you know what? I can't go through any more of this fucking shit and you can figure out the rest by reading it yourself. Let it be known to the next GG-apologist who wants to pull this narrative out in this thread: The donations were every bit about shielding GG dreadful history of harassment, attacks and covering the individuals doing so. If GG donated around $10k as claimed, then you really need to think very very hard when 1/10 of that came from the scumbag who was doing the above dreadful things. So yes, we can indeed see right through it and it won't persuade us of a damn thing. Doing something vaguely good to cover up the incredible terror, harm and pain being caused under GG does nothing to actually deflect or change what it has done.

    And yes, he's a prominent member of GG with a large amount of influence (just see how he basically called GG into attacking the blogger in the first storify) not just a random, before you go using the usual "But he dooooessssn't represent us!!!!" whinge.

    Once again, it's black and white now. Either you support gamergate and therefore the harassment of women and minorities that is being done and continues to be done under its name, or you don't and you leave it.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I think this would also be helpful to people who want to say that the anti-progressiveness side of Gamergate is the minority and that it's genuinely about corruption. A Boston Globe journalist addressed Reddit directly after they called his article "a poorly researched hit piece." Seems like he discovered the same things I did when talking to gamergaters:

    http://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2h36ue/another_poorlyresearched_hitpiece_from_the_boston/cldrqeu
    Uh huh. That's why at this very moment three of the top six posts on KIA—the subreddit I was explicitly instructed to visit if I wanted to see the real GamerGate—are about Wu and Sarkeesian (oh, I'm sorry, LW1 and LW3 [or is Wu 2? I can't keep track]) and social-justice warriors.

    So, to recap:

    Me: I don't think this is really about corruption as much as it's about discomfort with feminism. After all, a lot of the heat seems to be aimed at small female devs/commentators of a feminist bent.

    GamerGaters on Twitter: Not true! So unfair! Go to KIA!

    [Goes to KIA. Suspicions appear to be mostly confirmed.]

    This has happened over and over and over again (I also looked into the 8chan board and some other “approved” places). As a journalist trying to be fair-minded about this, you can't fucking win. If I'm arguing with someone from the NRA or the NAACP or some other established group, I can point to actual quotes from the group's leadership. With you guys, any bad thing that happens is, by definition, not the work of A True GamerGater. It's one of the oldest logical fallacies in the book.

    So what is GamerGate “really” about? I think this is the kinda question a philosopher of language would tear apart and scatter the remnants of to the wind, because it lacks any real referent. You guys refuse to appoint a leader or write up a platform or really do any of the things real-life, adult “movements” do. I’d argue that there isn’t really any such thing as GamerGate, because any given manifestation of it can be torn down as, again, No True GamerGate by anyone who disagrees with it. And who gets to decide what is and isn’t True GamerGate? You can’t say you want a decentralized, anonymous movement and then disown the ugly parts that inevitably pop up. Either everything is in, or everything is out.

    Anyway, faced with this complete lack of clarity, all I or other journalists can do, then, is journalism: We ask the people in the movement what they stand for and then try to tease out what is real and what is PR. And every every every substantive conversation/forum/encounter I've had with folks from GamerGate has led me to believe that a large part of the reason for the group's existence is discomfort with what its members see as the creeping and increasing influence of what you call social-justice warriors in the gaming world.

    I’m not just making this up based on the occasional Tweet or forum post. After my HuffPost Live appearance, I was invited into a Google Hangout about GamerGate by Troy Rubert, aka @GhostLev. I accepted, and when I got in just about everyone who spoke openly talked about how mad they were that progressive politics and feminism were impinging on gaming, which they saw as an area they had enjoyed, free of politics, forever. They were extremely open about this. A day or so later, another GamerGater, @Smilomaniac, asked me to read a blog post he’d written about his involvement in the movement in which he explicitly IDs as anti-feminist, and says that while some people claim otherwise, he thinks GG is an anti-feminist movement.

    I believe him; I think GamerGate is primarily about anger at progressive people who care about feminism and transgender rights and mental health and whatever else (I am not going to use your obnoxious social-justice warrior terminology anymore) getting involved in gaming, and by what you see as overly solicitous coverage of said individuals and their games. And that's fine! It's an opinion I happen to disagree with, but “at least it’s an ethos.”

    But this is only going to be a real debate if you guys can cop to your real-life feelings and opinions. You should have a bit more courage and put your actual motives front and center. Instead, because some of you do have a certain degree of political savvy, as is evidenced whenever GamerGaters on 8chan and elsewhere try to rein in their more unhinged peers, you've decided to go the "journalism ethics" route.

    Unfortunately, that sauce is incredibly weak. There was no Kotaku review of “Depression Quest,” and fair-minded journalists will see through that line of attack right away since ZQ was receiving hate for DQ long before her boyfriend posted that thing. Journalists donating to crowdfunding campaigns? I bet if you asked 100 journalists you'd get 100 different opinions on whether this should be inherently off-limits (personal take is that it isn't, but that journalists should certainly disclose any projects to which they donate). Collusion to strike at the heart of the gamer identity? Conservatives have been arguing that liberal journalists unfairly collude forever—I was on the “Journolist” that people wrongly claimed was coordinating pro-Obama coverage when really what we were doing, like any other listserv of ideologically like-minded people, was arguing with ourselves over everything. What happened was Gamasutra ran a column, that column went viral, and a lot of people responded to it. That sort of cross-site collusion doesn’t happen the way you think it does. When everyone’s writing about the same thing, that’s because the thing in question is getting a lot of discussion, which LA’s column did.

    You guys know as well as I do that a movement based on the stated goal of regaining gaming ground lost to feminists and (ugh) SJWs would not do very well from a PR perspective. But you’re in a bind, because the ethics charges are 1) 98% false; 2) complicated to follow for the layperson; and 3) pretty clearly a ruse given the underlying ideology of the folks pushing this line forward.

    (Important side note: A lot of the people calling for “journalistic ethics” quite transparently don’t know anything about journalism — to say that sites should clearly label what is and isn’t opinion, for example, is just plain weird, because a) that distinction is less and less relevant and is mostly a relic of newspaper days; and b) it’s a basic reading-comprehension thing; anyone who reads on a daily basis can tell, pretty simply from various cues in the narrative, whether they’re reading a work of “straight” journalism [outdated, troublesome term], “pure” opinion [again, bleh], or some combination of the two [which is what a lot of games coverage is].)

    So I’d make a call, one last time, for honesty: Stop pretending this is about stuff it isn’t. Acknowledge that you do not want SJWs in gaming, that you want games to just be about games. Again: I disagree, but at least then I (and other journalists! you do want coverage, don’t you?) could at least follow what the hell is going on. If your movement requires journalists to carefully parse 8chan chains to understand it, it gets an F- in the PR department.

    You guys need to man and woman up and talk about what’s really on your mind, or stop whining about “biased” coverage and/or blaming it on non-existent conspiracies. And that’s my overlong two cents about your movement and why I’m having a lot of trouble taking it seriously.

    (Edited right away to fix some stuff; more edits surely to come given that I wrote this quickly and in an under-caffeinated state. Feel free to snap a screenshot—I won’t be making any substantive changes.)

    chromdomArtereisAegerikaortiCommander ZoomagoajmRahmaniUreshiiAkumaDjiemAndy JoeSurfpossumSmrtnikceresLars_DomusTofystedethIlpalaStollsMegaMekTheCanMandarleysamDarkewolfe
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    I think this would also be helpful to people who want to say that the anti-progressiveness side of Gamergate is the minority and that it's genuinely about corruption. A Boston Globe journalist addressed Reddit directly after they called his article "a poorly researched hit piece." Seems like he discovered the same things I did when talking to gamergaters:

    I'm not surprised that's what he discovered; that's literally all there is to discover about Gamergate. Even the people who came in here telling us it was about corruption, none of them brought up any such example or argument. All we've heard about was the false corruption accusations regarding Zoe Quinn, and articles like Leigh Alexander's excellent piece about how "gamers" don't have to be your sole public as a developer, and article that, whether you agree or disagree with it, has NOTHING to do with gaming corruption. Even the "moderate" and "good" pro-GG people who posted here betrayed a "SJW will ruin gaming" vibe in their message and worries about what Gamergate is fighting.

    The others have simply spent all their energy convincing us that Gamergate isn't just about harassment. When you have to spend all your time convincing the outside that your movement isn't just about the horrible actions it was created and popularized to commit..... maybe your movement sucks and you need to leave it.

    SmrtnikUreshiiAkumaAndy JoeceresLoonyEclipseSmoogyAegeri
  • MooFooMooFoo Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    It's time to drop the argument. Both sides have caused considerable damage to the industry. As a result of actions taken by some bad-apples in the GG camp and the narrow mindedness of the anti-GG camp to label male gamers as misogynists, I expect that more game companies will choose to focus on social politics and trite political correctness rather than focus on fun escapism.

    Avoid this debate at all costs. At this point it is not possible for either side to intelligently acknowledge points presented by the other. Personally, I will longer identify myself as a gamer. If asked, I'll say no, I'm not a gamer, but I do occasionally play games. I also plan to no longer visit any gaming websites, especially the ones who have chosen to insult the entirety of the customer base in a effort to discuss this topic.

    The good news for me, is that I no longer have to worry about constantly being tempted by previews of games that have not yet been released. I'll likely only know about the large name games when they pop up in either my Steam list or PS4 list.

    I predict that the fallout of this argument will most likely affect small game companies and possibly bring the whole indie movement to a crawl. Without the constant exposure that game websites provide (in the way of previews for early-access games), I wonder if those smaller game companies will be able to weather this storm.

    I hope the best for this industry, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that things will get worse before they get better. My advice is to let this one go. You will be much happier and healthier for it. Let the chips fall where they may. Plan to vote with your wallet over the next 4 years or so. If a game is politically charged, and you don't like that sort of stuff, don't buy it.

    MooFoo on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    MooFoo wrote: »
    It's time to drop the argument.

    He says, as part of the continuation of the argument.
    Both sides have caused considerable damage to the industry. As a result of actions taken by some bad-apples in the GG camp and the narrow mindedness of the anti-GG camp to label male gamers as misogynists, I expect that more game companies will choose to focus on social politics and trite political correctness rather than focus on fun escapism.

    Nobody's labeling all male gamers as misogynists. One tiny minority that calls itself gamergate is acting pretty misogynistic, but they don't represent all of gaming even if they think they do.

    Also "both sides have caused considerable damage" is cute. No one can actually point to the damage that anti-GGers have done, since that's not a unified group nor does it even call itself wanting the same things. There's a group that's doing damage (GG) and a bunch of disparate elements telling them to stop.
    Avoid this debate at all costs.

    He says, while continuing the debate.
    At this point it is not possible for either side to intelligently acknowledge points presented by the other.

    I've asked multiple times in this thread and elsewhere what the points of GG are. In this thread nobody even bothered to answer me. Elsewhere, the answer was "we don't want feminists in gaming." And since I'm a feminist who games, it should be pretty clear why I wouldn't acknowledge that as a good point.

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  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    MooFoo wrote: »
    It's time to drop the argument. Both sides have caused considerable damage to the industry. As a result of actions taken by some bad-apples in the GG camp and the narrow mindedness of the anti-GG camp to label male gamers as misogynists

    GG, as a whole, has done this damage, not just a few bad apples. The anti-GG camp, to the extent that such a thing even exists, has done no such thing.
    I expect that more game companies will choose to focus on social politics and trite political correctness rather than focus on fun escapism.

    Good! There is, frankly, too much escapism and not enough thoughtfulness in modern gaming, at least in the AAA sphere. Everything is political, but when you don't think about it you're just supporting the status quo. And even token steps towards inclusivity, diversity and sensitivity (or "political correctness" for people who don't like how positive those terms sound) are a step forward.
    I also plan to no longer visit any gaming websites, especially the ones who have chosen to insult the entirety of the customer base in a effort to discuss this topic.

    It's a good thing that no gaming websites have done that, then!
    I predict that the fallout of this argument will most likely affect small game companies and possibly bring the whole indie movement to a crawl.

    On the contrary, it's the largest publishers most strongly associated with marketing towards the traditionally white, young, male gamer, and whose poor representation of women and minorities is the status quo that GG seeks to protect from dreaded "SJWs" who are going to come out of this the worst.

    Andy Joe on
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  • MooFooMooFoo Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    This debate is toxic, and will go no where, period. The more it goes on, the worse it gets. Fact.

    Besides what are you worried about? I have no plans to actively support any GG points and will continue to condemn anything even close to harassment. The only affect I'll have in the future will be made by my wallet.

    This is me saying, the anti-GG has won. Enjoy your victory. Is that not enough?

    MooFoo on
  • GanluanGanluan Registered User regular
    Why is it every time people complain about political correctness or politics, what they really seem to mean is "don't challenge my world views"?

    I mean, I'm not a Christian, but I wouldn't give a flying fuck if I played a game with a devout main character who bases his decisions on religious belief. Why is it any different if the main character is gay, or a woman, or...?

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  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    MooFoo wrote: »
    It's time to drop the argument. Both sides have caused considerable damage to the industry. As a result of actions taken by some bad-apples in the GG camp and the narrow mindedness of the anti-GG camp to label male gamers as misogynists, I expect that more game companies will choose to focus on social politics and trite political correctness rather than focus on fun escapism.

    I like how you specify "some bad-apples" for the "GG gamp", and then create a whole anti-GG camp (which doesn't exist per se as there is no banner under which people who oppose GG identify) and claim it is entirely narrow-minded and labels male gamers as misogynists, which makes no sense. I'm a male gamer (although I don't identify as a gamer, I'm interested in games, I enjoy them, I am a gaming enthusiast) and I am firmly opposed to the toxic poison that is GG, but I don't think I'm a misogynist.

    Also, only one side has caused any damage whatsoever to the industry: the side that sends death threats and tries to silence gaming journalists and developers they deem "sjw" or feminist. There's no other side, but if you were to make up one with the people GG seems to be opposing with its actions, it would be a side that is actually trying to elevate gaming to a serious artform and medium, by analyzing it, criticizing it, and discussing its social implications.

    As for your expectation that game companies will focus on social politics: GOOD! Finally! You can have fun escapism and still be inclusive! Some political correctness is trite, as there are crazy people pushing an exaggerated agenda in any social aspect of the world, including progressive people, but to have an industry and community that is more welcoming of minorities, women, marginalized groups, etc. is not "trite political correctness".

    Djiem on
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  • MooFooMooFoo Registered User regular
    Guys, don't read into it too much. I'm not trying to suggest anyone choose a side. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Basically, for someone who's been on the side-lines, this whole argument appears like a gigantic mess, and I am personally ashamed to be associated with either side, even if it is a remote association.

    I'm just trying to provide the best advice I can to those people who hang out in the same place I do. If you choose to let this go, your blood pressure will go down, and you will be much happier for it. Plus, if you allow this storm of 'points and counter-points' to leave your mind, you may find some clarity and come away learning something from all of this. I know I have. I'll even admit that I agree with many of the feminist points made. For example, I'd love to see a Zelda game where Link is instead Captured and we get to see a classy, bad-ass, princess Zelda go rescue him.

    Believe it or not, I care about all of you. All of my posts in this thread so far have been made in an attempt to diffuse this argument, and provide different ways to cope with the situation. I wish you all the best in the future, and may you all find that game that best suits you.

  • Andy JoeAndy Joe The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    MooFoo wrote: »
    Guys, don't read into it too much. I'm not trying to suggest anyone choose a side. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Basically, for someone who's been on the side-lines, this whole argument appears like a gigantic mess, and I am personally ashamed to be associated with either side, even if it is a remote association.

    I'm just trying to provide the best advice I can to those people who hang out in the same place I do. If you choose to let this go, your blood pressure will go down, and you will be much happier for it. Plus, if you allow this storm of 'points and counter-points' to leave your mind, you may find some clarity and come away learning something from all of this. I know I have. I'll even admit that I agree with many of the feminist points made. For example, I'd love to see a Zelda game where Link is instead Captured and we get to see a classy, bad-ass, princess Zelda go rescue him.

    Believe it or not, I care about all of you. All of my posts in this thread so far have been made in an attempt to diffuse this argument, and provide different ways to cope with the situation. I wish you all the best in the future, and may you all find that game that best suits you.

    If we didn't want to make these arguments, then we wouldn't be making them. Your advice, however well-meaning, comes off as condescending at best, and at worst like it's coming from a concern troll.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I don't think there's any way for me, as a woman who wants more diverse portrayal of women and minorities in games, to "stay out of the argument" if I actually care about the topic.

    I mean a gamergater can recuse him or her self from the argument, and nothing much will change for them: 90% of all games will still be white male protagonists with few to no women or people of color. They already have what they want in spades. What gamergate is protesting against is the tiny corner of the industry that caters to me - like them calling for a boycott of Bioware games, which is basically the only triple A studio I buy from.

    seasleepyAegeriDjiemTychoCelchuuuceresCommander ZoomSurfpossumDarkewolfe
  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    MooFoo wrote: »
    Guys, don't read into it too much. I'm not trying to suggest anyone choose a side. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Basically, for someone who's been on the side-lines, this whole argument appears like a gigantic mess, and I am personally ashamed to be associated with either side, even if it is a remote association.

    I'm just trying to provide the best advice I can to those people who hang out in the same place I do. If you choose to let this go, your blood pressure will go down, and you will be much happier for it. Plus, if you allow this storm of 'points and counter-points' to leave your mind, you may find some clarity and come away learning something from all of this. I know I have. I'll even admit that I agree with many of the feminist points made. For example, I'd love to see a Zelda game where Link is instead Captured and we get to see a classy, bad-ass, princess Zelda go rescue him.

    Believe it or not, I care about all of you. All of my posts in this thread so far have been made in an attempt to diffuse this argument, and provide different ways to cope with the situation. I wish you all the best in the future, and may you all find that game that best suits you.
    I've limited my involvement in this fiasco to mostly sighing about it here and honestly it still really sucks, because at the end of the day a bunch of people whose writing I enjoy aren't going to be doing that anymore.

    A bunch of these guys are the same guys that have been harassing Sarkeesian and others for years. If we just stop talking about it, it's still going to keep happening to them. If, on the other hand, we recognize there's a problem and start to take steps to better address harassment when it happens (before it gets to death threats again), the gaming community can become a much more welcoming place for all sorts of people.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    MooFoo wrote: »
    Guys, don't read into it too much. I'm not trying to suggest anyone choose a side. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Basically, for someone who's been on the side-lines, this whole argument appears like a gigantic mess, and I am personally ashamed to be associated with either side, even if it is a remote association.

    The idea that I should feel shame about associating myself with those who oppose the harassment, bullying, misogyny, rape threats and terrorism of GamerGate is utterly bizarre. When one of my friends IRL has come up to me in tears over the subject and outright chosen to leave making games because of how frightening this is for her, I can't think of any other way I would prefer to spend my time arguing on the Internet than this. When GG dehumanises the women it made flee their homes by labelling them just "Literally Who #", it shows the deep rooted misogyny and outright contempt for women that they truly have. The only shame anyone should feel in this argument is having anything to do with GG at this point, its "prominent" members who are all grade A+ misogynists, harassers or generally awful people or who think harassment of women out of games is an actual noble goal.

    Again, all you're trying to do is drag up that incredibly bullshit, asinine and frankly, insulting concept that "both sides" are as bad as one another. They are not.

    Aegeri on
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  • MooFooMooFoo Registered User regular
    A bunch of these guys are the same guys that have been harassing Sarkeesian and others for years. If we just stop talking about it, it's still going to keep happening to them. If, on the other hand, we recognize there's a problem and start to take steps to better address harassment when it happens (before it gets to death threats again), the gaming community can become a much more welcoming place for all sorts of people.

    Good, then it would be more accurate to continue the discussion under the label of "Harassment on the Internet" and leave us gamers out of it. Articles posted on game websites, New York Times, Rolling Stones, paints a bad picture of male gamers without any scientific research to support claims (and certainly does not apply to me). The ones doing the harassment are mega-jerks on the internet who need to be stopped, by law enforcement if need be.

    The word "gamer" should be used with a better sense of responsibility. I support neither side of the argument and do not appreciate the "gamer" identity to be stripped away by way of a tactic to retaliate against the other side. The harassment must stop. If you are a sane individual, you would not harass anyone just because they disagree with you.

    Feminism has won. GG has lost. Harassment is bad. I learned something and feel I also would like to see a better representation of women in games. What more do you guys want? I'm not going to agree with every point made, but I will consider them all. If we disagree, why be mad about it? I'm not going to attack your sole or try to take away your identity because of it.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    MooFoo wrote: »
    Guys, don't read into it too much. I'm not trying to suggest anyone choose a side. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. Basically, for someone who's been on the side-lines, this whole argument appears like a gigantic mess, and I am personally ashamed to be associated with either side, even if it is a remote association.

    The idea that I should feel shame about associating myself with those who oppose the harassment, bullying, misogyny, rape threats and terrorism of GamerGate is utterly bizarre. When one of my friends IRL has come up to me in tears over the subject and outright chosen to leave making games because of how frightening this is for her, I can't think of any other way I would prefer to spend my time arguing on the Internet than this. When GG dehumanises the women it made flee their homes by labelling them just "Literally Who #", it shows the deep rooted misogyny and outright contempt for women that they truly have. The only shame anyone should feel in this argument is having anything to do with GG at this point, its "prominent" members who are all grade A+ misogynists, harassers or generally awful people or who think harassment of women out of games is an actual noble goal.

    Again, all you're trying to do is drag up that incredibly bullshit, asinine and frankly, insulting concept that "both sides" are as bad as one another. They are not.

    Yes, this is the other side of it. I haven't personally been threatened, but I'm not actually trying to create games. The problem with silence in the face of gamergate is that it is fundamentally hostile to women, whatever the more moderate faction might say about it. And at least at the beginning, before I started talking about it openly myself, I was utterly terrified.

    It was only in speaking myself, but more importantly in seeing many other people speak out, that I was able to get past that fear. And like I said, I don't even create games! I can't imagine how much worse it would be for me if I had actually created any games, noteworthy or not.

    Silence may seem like the best bet for people who are not actually getting the bullying, but to me personally it meant a lot to see prominent people telling gamergate in no uncertain terms that what they are promoting is bullshit.

    Aegeri
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    MooFoo wrote: »
    A bunch of these guys are the same guys that have been harassing Sarkeesian and others for years. If we just stop talking about it, it's still going to keep happening to them. If, on the other hand, we recognize there's a problem and start to take steps to better address harassment when it happens (before it gets to death threats again), the gaming community can become a much more welcoming place for all sorts of people.

    Good, then it would be more accurate to continue the discussion under the label of "Harassment on the Internet" and leave us gamers out of it. Articles posted on game websites, New York Times, Rolling Stones, paints a bad picture of male gamers without any scientific research to support claims (and certainly does not apply to me).
    So maybe then those people shouldn't rally under the banner of gamergate?

    Tofystedeth on
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  • RatherDashing89RatherDashing89 Registered User regular
    MooFoo wrote: »
    A bunch of these guys are the same guys that have been harassing Sarkeesian and others for years. If we just stop talking about it, it's still going to keep happening to them. If, on the other hand, we recognize there's a problem and start to take steps to better address harassment when it happens (before it gets to death threats again), the gaming community can become a much more welcoming place for all sorts of people.

    Good, then it would be more accurate to continue the discussion under the label of "Harassment on the Internet" and leave us gamers out of it. Articles posted on game websites, New York Times, Rolling Stones, paints a bad picture of male gamers without any scientific research to support claims (and certainly does not apply to me). The ones doing the harassment are mega-jerks on the internet who need to be stopped, by law enforcement if need be.

    The word "gamer" should be used with a better sense of responsibility. I support neither side of the argument and do not appreciate the "gamer" identity to be stripped away by way of a tactic to retaliate against the other side. The harassment must stop. If you are a sane individual, you would not harass anyone just because they disagree with you.

    Feminism has won. GG has lost. Harassment is bad. I learned something and feel I also would like to see a better representation of women in games. What more do you guys want? I'm not going to agree with every point made, but I will consider them all. If we disagree, why be mad about it? I'm not going to attack your sole or try to take away your identity because of it.

    Lurker interjecting. Gamergate=! gamer.

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  • MooFooMooFoo Registered User regular
    My apologies to the group for my disturbance. After some thought and reading of responses, I understand, more...

    I guess I did have something to say, and chose this forum to voice that. I've been an avid fan of PA since a friend made me listen to the audio post of the support call gone wrong. I've read almost every word posted since, but was never active. I suppose I got to thinking that maybe I'd try to something right, with a group of folks that have been open minded to all kinds of subjects, but who am I to say what's right?

    Never meant to troll. I still stand by my point of view, though I do now regret forcing that on you out of the blue. I understand the pain caused by the harassment, and wish Cambodia's friend all the best in what ever she chooses to do.

  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    Many of you will be shocked, absolutely shocked I tell you, to learn that many of the current lot supporting GamerGate and decrying harassment are those who, in the past, have a chronic obsession with harassing women.

    I was particularly tickled by the folks spamming GamerGate everywhere and saying how much they are against harassment being involved in the vicious and unrelenting attacks upon Jennifer Hepler that the author of the storify found out.

    Aegeri on
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    MooFoo wrote: »
    My apologies to the group for my disturbance. After some thought and reading of responses, I understand, more...

    I guess I did have something to say, and chose this forum to voice that. I've been an avid fan of PA since a friend made me listen to the audio post of the support call gone wrong. I've read almost every word posted since, but was never active. I suppose I got to thinking that maybe I'd try to something right, with a group of folks that have been open minded to all kinds of subjects, but who am I to say what's right?

    Never meant to troll. I still stand by my point of view, though I do now regret forcing that on you out of the blue. I understand the pain caused by the harassment, and wish Cambodia's friend all the best in what ever she chooses to do.
    "I'm still right about everything but I totally regret all the bad things that happen to people" is (in addition to being somewhat inconsistent - the various positions you have taken are in direct opposition to preventing the kind of harassment you ostensibly feel bad about) the kind of stance that doesn't really strike me as well thought out or very nuanced. There are only so many ways to say "I'm right about everything despite having nothing to say to your rebuttals" before it starts to ring false, and it's at about the time when you start to talk about how long you've been a fan or how you didn't mean to troll (this despite nobody having accused you of being a brand new fan [as if that would matter?] or of trolling) that it starts to seem like maybe you're out of useful things to say. One way to acquire useful things to say would maybe be to change your mind so that you're no longer on the intellectually bankrupt side of this whole thing.

    CambiataAegeriMegaMekDarkewolfe
  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    MooFoo wrote: »
    A bunch of these guys are the same guys that have been harassing Sarkeesian and others for years. If we just stop talking about it, it's still going to keep happening to them. If, on the other hand, we recognize there's a problem and start to take steps to better address harassment when it happens (before it gets to death threats again), the gaming community can become a much more welcoming place for all sorts of people.

    Good, then it would be more accurate to continue the discussion under the label of "Harassment on the Internet" and leave us gamers out of it. Articles posted on game websites, New York Times, Rolling Stones, paints a bad picture of male gamers without any scientific research to support claims (and certainly does not apply to me). The ones doing the harassment are mega-jerks on the internet who need to be stopped, by law enforcement if need be.

    The word "gamer" should be used with a better sense of responsibility. I support neither side of the argument and do not appreciate the "gamer" identity to be stripped away by way of a tactic to retaliate against the other side. The harassment must stop. If you are a sane individual, you would not harass anyone just because they disagree with you.
    The thing is, yes, this sort of thing happens on the internet. It isn't entirely exclusive to gaming -- it happens semi-regularly in the tech industry as well, for instance. But it happens so much more in games. And this is a months-long crusade by self-proclaimed "gamers" out to protect video games by harassing women who write about or make games, prompting little to no comment from major gaming outlets or developers until the specter of Marc Lépine was raised. Yes, it really makes gamers look bad. As people that like games, we should really, really do something about that.
    Feminism has won. GG has lost. Harassment is bad. I learned something and feel I also would like to see a better representation of women in games. What more do you guys want? I'm not going to agree with every point made, but I will consider them all. If we disagree, why be mad about it? I'm not going to attack your sole or try to take away your identity because of it.
    What more would I want?
    I'd like to feel confident this isn't going to happen again when someone points out that a game might possibly be somewhat sexist, or points out that someone has acted somewhat sexist, or decides to make a game, or tries to support someone who has done one of these things. (Or does nothing at all and gets accused of random bullshit.)
    I'd like this sort of thing to be a topic that could feasibly be discussed on major gaming sites without moderators having to hover over them 24/7.
    I'd like gaming culture in general to not be so damn defensive about the possibility of people creating games or writing articles they might not personally be interested in.
    Games are big enough for everyone.

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  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    MooFoo wrote: »
    Feminism has won. GG has lost. Harassment is bad. I learned something and feel I also would like to see a better representation of women in games. What more do you guys want? I'm not going to agree with every point made, but I will consider them all. If we disagree, why be mad about it? I'm not going to attack your sole or try to take away your identity because of it.

    See, the thing is, this didn't start with GG, nor does it end with it. I mean, sure, the hot topic of GG itself will end with GG, but the larger, deeper, and more complex issue of feminism and being inclusive is still a discussion that needs to be had, with respect, without death threats, without attempts at silencing the people on either side, without all the slurs.

    You don't need to tell me that nobody will be mad if YOU and I disagree. I know that. But there are more gamers in the world than just you. You might not attack me or take away my identity, but as GG has shown us more clearly than ever before, others will do it, probably not to me, but to women, gay or trans people, minorities, etc. This is something many people in the industry (mostly women) have had to deal with for a long time. GG just put the spotlight on it, and made it impossible to ignore for all of us who don't normally get harassed or don't usually see this harassment take place because it's private.

    Now it's too late to pretend it doesn't exist. We've SEEN it, clear as day, out in the open, all of us.

    You don't need to keep talking about the subject if it makes you mad or makes your blood boil. But understand that this is a privilege that you and I have, as we're not the target of harassment. The targets CAN'T just pretend it doesn't exist, unless they flee the gaming industry or community, and that's not ok.

    Feminism has not won. I think it is winning, slowly, steadily, but it has not won yet.
    The discussion needs to continue.

    My hope is that the existence of GG and its death threats represent the desperate last stand of a dying group of bigots, just as I hope that the big opposition you see in the US to gay marriage at the moment is just the bigots knowing that they're on the losing side and just throwing everything they have left in a last attempt to stop what cannot be stopped.

    Hopefully I'm right, a slow cultural change will appear, the gaming world will slowly be more inclusive, and obviously gaming will not be killed or die (like those pro-GG people like to claim.) Indeed, it will only grow stronger and better as a medium. There is room for all sorts of games, even ones that do use tropes or stereotypes, if you really need them. We'll have art games, indie games, AAA games, inclusive games, games that don't touch any issue by their very design (think Tetris), games that will still appeal mostly to the "white straight guy" but that some/many other people also enjoy. Every time you create a video game, it doesn't kill another potential video game. There's not a finite number of games that can exist.

    And more importantly, we'll be able to analyze, discuss them more freely. Just like movies. And books, and any other medium.

    Djiem on
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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    As a bit of a side note, I'm sort of fascinated at how GG folk have spun themselves as "the poor nerds that everybody picks on." At how GG is a lashing out from being picked on too often, just for being nerds doing nerdy things and no other reason, you guys!

    I was thinking a bit today about what one used to mean when referring to a geek or nerd, touched off by PA's D&D Star Trek thread (where someone said "this discussion is so nerdy it's physically painful." as a joke). Before I follow this track any further, I do want to say that I don't believe in geek/nerd "gatekeeping" and if you consider yourself a nerd/geek that's all that matters, no one else is allowed to call you 'fake' just because you don't have enough lore memorized or whatever. That said, the thing that used to make one a geek was not just liking video games or sci fi, but also this business of overanalyzing. Of spinning out every bit of implication as far as you could imagine. In some cases, of being so into a piece of fiction that you write your own stories based on it. Being a nerd, in some ways, meant thinking "too hard" about stuff no one else cared about.

    The other piece of the puzzle is that currently "nerd" things are very much in fashion. People mock shows like The Big Bang theory, but that show exists at all because people want to be part of that culture. Basically everyone plays games of some variety now (even my parents play windows card games). Sci Fi and comic books feed our multi-million dollar blockbuster franchises. A popular, cool musician like Pharrel made an anime music video. We're living in the future that I dreamed of as a teenager, where everything I enjoy is readily available because of it's popularity.

    Because of that, this current controversy, which is just the same controversy dressed up in new clothes, is not "a bunch of outsiders (feminists) trying to mess with the geeks (gamergaters) LIKE ALWAYS", but instead it's the the cool kids/jocks (gamergate) being mad because their sports are totally ruined just by the presence of those damn overanalyzing nerds that are so uncool (feminist critics, game devs, and journalists).

    Perhaps in a way, it's the revenge of the nerds - now that they have power, they're going to take bullying vengeance on all those jocks who hurt them in high school. But those jocks aren't available. It's just us other nerds here.

    Andy JoeCommander ZoomHelicaonAegeri
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