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[PA Comic] Wednesday, October 15, 2014 - Star Gourds
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edit: I've just noticed the TXT button next to the title, nm.
I think I may have a little insight and/or sympathy on this one.
It comes down (IMO) to the feeling "why should I have to be the one to concede, to sacrifice, to give way; to abandon my chosen identity, to give up my hobby and my cherished privilege? How is that fair? I was here first! What right do they have, and why aren't they being asked/told to give up anything for the sake of 'compromise'? Why do I always have to be the 'reasonable' one? Not this time! I'm tired of it, I'm done!"
Because this is how people feel, even when they hold 9/10ths of the pie and are being asked to give up just one. Give "them" anything, the fear whispers, and they'll end up taking it all and leave "us" with nothing. (Because that's what we'd do "they" are greedy and selfish, and "we" are unjustly persecuted. Always.)
This condenses the "anguished", beating heart of GG in a nutshell. A handful of (female) voices and perspectives that, depending who you ask range in influence from "interesting" to "inconsequential" have held a mirror up to the face of "teh hardcorez" and what they see reflected makes them uncomfortable. That's life, it sucks to discover by honest mistake you have found yourself associating with villains.
The real moral failure is sticking around or trying to "legitimize" their cause.
What I'd rather talk about is, how in 2014 did this kind of movement actually happen? What does this say about feminism? What does this say about "gamers"?
Let's take gay rights as an example. In 2011 the majority popular opinion in the US became that gay marriage should be legal: http://xkcd.com/1431/. I think social attitudes to homosexuality have been changing fairly rapidly. There's a lot of reasons for that, but I think a big one is that lots more people are coming out, and almost everyone has a family member or close friend who is gay. At that point it's pretty hard to say that being gay is fundamentally wrong.
But feminism (and let's remember, the basic definition of the word means that you believe in equal rights) appears to be struggling: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html. It's weird because it's not like we don't all have women in our lives that we know and love. Sure, there may be some crazy minority that hates women who will never change. But shouldn't the general populace be increasingly feminist?
Specifically on the subject of GamerGate: who exactly are these people on the pro-GG side? It's very hard for me to imagine that any reasonable person over 30 is pro-GG. Are these basically teenage males with underdeveloped empathy/politics? Does this mean that the younger generation of males is increasingly anti-feminist, or is this something that they will essentially grow out of as they get older? For example, I remember believe some pretty dumb shit when I was that age, so I could certainly relate. But I don't think I was making death threats to women...
The article that brought this to mind was this: http://www.theawl.com/2014/10/the-sad-parents-of-gamergate
Maybe, maybe the people issuing death threats are just a crazy minority of the pro-GG crowd.
MAYBE gaming websites have some conspiracy cooked up where they are smearing the pro-GG movement to deflect criticism of their practices.
Let's assume all of these improbable things are true just for the sake of argument.
Is the ethics of video games journalism really that big of a deal? Is anyone actually being harmed from this? Lots of journalism is unethical. Hell, you could probably argue that most journalism is unethical these days! If that's the case, let's get more riled up about the journalism that actually impacts people's lives.
If the risk of being pro-GG is to ally yourself with people who are actually threatening the lives of people, maybe it's not worth it? Maybe just start over with another hashtag or something?
I don't know. As someone who's gamed my whole life and really identifies as a "gamer", this whole thing is just so sad and embarrassing.
There are plenty of adults that are pro-GG, and that's what makes it so fucked up and scary.. The problem is there are plenty of people over 30 that aren't reasonable. If you think that being against women/women's rights is a thing that people grow out of, you haven't been paying attention. The Men's Rights movement, the Republican Party, the continuing widespread objectification of women in media and entertainment, the continued trend of systematically excusing rape or blaming rape victims, etc, etc, etc.
Yeah, those are good points. The former group I always assumed was some idiot group of bros aged 12-30 on reddit; the latter are old assholes aged 60+ who will be gone in a decade or two. This is all probably just wishful thinking though.
So do you think that we are becoming increasingly anti-feminist as a society? But why exactly would that be? What are your thoughts on the root case?
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
That tweet (aatishb's response, really) is freaking amazing.
Centuries of gender bias in culture, religion and literature do not simply disappear in a generation or two. It's ignorant and self-defeating to think so, and that is probably the biggest obstacle for modern feminism: the attitude it's no longer necessary.
Honestly, at this point I think it's a realization deep down that they are "losing" and that society is going to be more equal, more inclusive whether they like it or not, so they're flailing about trying to slow the inevitable march of progress as much as they can.
http://laurie-penny.com/why-were-winning-social-justice-warriors-and-the-new-culture-war/
This is a great article. Thanks so much for sharing.
I picture something akin to a Mr Claw type character petting his MAD cat every time someone is harassed in the name of gaming ethics. Basically a faceless force fooling the sheep into doing the dirty work. Its sad to see good people with good causes, tricked into fighting for the wrong people.
"NEXT TIME, SARKEESIAN! NEXT TIME!"
http://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2h36ue/another_poorlyresearched_hitpiece_from_the_boston/cldrqeu
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I'm not surprised that's what he discovered; that's literally all there is to discover about Gamergate. Even the people who came in here telling us it was about corruption, none of them brought up any such example or argument. All we've heard about was the false corruption accusations regarding Zoe Quinn, and articles like Leigh Alexander's excellent piece about how "gamers" don't have to be your sole public as a developer, and article that, whether you agree or disagree with it, has NOTHING to do with gaming corruption. Even the "moderate" and "good" pro-GG people who posted here betrayed a "SJW will ruin gaming" vibe in their message and worries about what Gamergate is fighting.
The others have simply spent all their energy convincing us that Gamergate isn't just about harassment. When you have to spend all your time convincing the outside that your movement isn't just about the horrible actions it was created and popularized to commit..... maybe your movement sucks and you need to leave it.
Avoid this debate at all costs. At this point it is not possible for either side to intelligently acknowledge points presented by the other. Personally, I will longer identify myself as a gamer. If asked, I'll say no, I'm not a gamer, but I do occasionally play games. I also plan to no longer visit any gaming websites, especially the ones who have chosen to insult the entirety of the customer base in a effort to discuss this topic.
The good news for me, is that I no longer have to worry about constantly being tempted by previews of games that have not yet been released. I'll likely only know about the large name games when they pop up in either my Steam list or PS4 list.
I predict that the fallout of this argument will most likely affect small game companies and possibly bring the whole indie movement to a crawl. Without the constant exposure that game websites provide (in the way of previews for early-access games), I wonder if those smaller game companies will be able to weather this storm.
I hope the best for this industry, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that things will get worse before they get better. My advice is to let this one go. You will be much happier and healthier for it. Let the chips fall where they may. Plan to vote with your wallet over the next 4 years or so. If a game is politically charged, and you don't like that sort of stuff, don't buy it.
He says, as part of the continuation of the argument.
Nobody's labeling all male gamers as misogynists. One tiny minority that calls itself gamergate is acting pretty misogynistic, but they don't represent all of gaming even if they think they do.
Also "both sides have caused considerable damage" is cute. No one can actually point to the damage that anti-GGers have done, since that's not a unified group nor does it even call itself wanting the same things. There's a group that's doing damage (GG) and a bunch of disparate elements telling them to stop.
He says, while continuing the debate.
I've asked multiple times in this thread and elsewhere what the points of GG are. In this thread nobody even bothered to answer me. Elsewhere, the answer was "we don't want feminists in gaming." And since I'm a feminist who games, it should be pretty clear why I wouldn't acknowledge that as a good point.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
GG, as a whole, has done this damage, not just a few bad apples. The anti-GG camp, to the extent that such a thing even exists, has done no such thing.
Good! There is, frankly, too much escapism and not enough thoughtfulness in modern gaming, at least in the AAA sphere. Everything is political, but when you don't think about it you're just supporting the status quo. And even token steps towards inclusivity, diversity and sensitivity (or "political correctness" for people who don't like how positive those terms sound) are a step forward.
It's a good thing that no gaming websites have done that, then!
On the contrary, it's the largest publishers most strongly associated with marketing towards the traditionally white, young, male gamer, and whose poor representation of women and minorities is the status quo that GG seeks to protect from dreaded "SJWs" who are going to come out of this the worst.
Besides what are you worried about? I have no plans to actively support any GG points and will continue to condemn anything even close to harassment. The only affect I'll have in the future will be made by my wallet.
This is me saying, the anti-GG has won. Enjoy your victory. Is that not enough?
I mean, I'm not a Christian, but I wouldn't give a flying fuck if I played a game with a devout main character who bases his decisions on religious belief. Why is it any different if the main character is gay, or a woman, or...?
I like how you specify "some bad-apples" for the "GG gamp", and then create a whole anti-GG camp (which doesn't exist per se as there is no banner under which people who oppose GG identify) and claim it is entirely narrow-minded and labels male gamers as misogynists, which makes no sense. I'm a male gamer (although I don't identify as a gamer, I'm interested in games, I enjoy them, I am a gaming enthusiast) and I am firmly opposed to the toxic poison that is GG, but I don't think I'm a misogynist.
Also, only one side has caused any damage whatsoever to the industry: the side that sends death threats and tries to silence gaming journalists and developers they deem "sjw" or feminist. There's no other side, but if you were to make up one with the people GG seems to be opposing with its actions, it would be a side that is actually trying to elevate gaming to a serious artform and medium, by analyzing it, criticizing it, and discussing its social implications.
As for your expectation that game companies will focus on social politics: GOOD! Finally! You can have fun escapism and still be inclusive! Some political correctness is trite, as there are crazy people pushing an exaggerated agenda in any social aspect of the world, including progressive people, but to have an industry and community that is more welcoming of minorities, women, marginalized groups, etc. is not "trite political correctness".
I'm just trying to provide the best advice I can to those people who hang out in the same place I do. If you choose to let this go, your blood pressure will go down, and you will be much happier for it. Plus, if you allow this storm of 'points and counter-points' to leave your mind, you may find some clarity and come away learning something from all of this. I know I have. I'll even admit that I agree with many of the feminist points made. For example, I'd love to see a Zelda game where Link is instead Captured and we get to see a classy, bad-ass, princess Zelda go rescue him.
Believe it or not, I care about all of you. All of my posts in this thread so far have been made in an attempt to diffuse this argument, and provide different ways to cope with the situation. I wish you all the best in the future, and may you all find that game that best suits you.
If we didn't want to make these arguments, then we wouldn't be making them. Your advice, however well-meaning, comes off as condescending at best, and at worst like it's coming from a concern troll.
I mean a gamergater can recuse him or her self from the argument, and nothing much will change for them: 90% of all games will still be white male protagonists with few to no women or people of color. They already have what they want in spades. What gamergate is protesting against is the tiny corner of the industry that caters to me - like them calling for a boycott of Bioware games, which is basically the only triple A studio I buy from.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
A bunch of these guys are the same guys that have been harassing Sarkeesian and others for years. If we just stop talking about it, it's still going to keep happening to them. If, on the other hand, we recognize there's a problem and start to take steps to better address harassment when it happens (before it gets to death threats again), the gaming community can become a much more welcoming place for all sorts of people.
Good, then it would be more accurate to continue the discussion under the label of "Harassment on the Internet" and leave us gamers out of it. Articles posted on game websites, New York Times, Rolling Stones, paints a bad picture of male gamers without any scientific research to support claims (and certainly does not apply to me). The ones doing the harassment are mega-jerks on the internet who need to be stopped, by law enforcement if need be.
The word "gamer" should be used with a better sense of responsibility. I support neither side of the argument and do not appreciate the "gamer" identity to be stripped away by way of a tactic to retaliate against the other side. The harassment must stop. If you are a sane individual, you would not harass anyone just because they disagree with you.
Feminism has won. GG has lost. Harassment is bad. I learned something and feel I also would like to see a better representation of women in games. What more do you guys want? I'm not going to agree with every point made, but I will consider them all. If we disagree, why be mad about it? I'm not going to attack your sole or try to take away your identity because of it.
Yes, this is the other side of it. I haven't personally been threatened, but I'm not actually trying to create games. The problem with silence in the face of gamergate is that it is fundamentally hostile to women, whatever the more moderate faction might say about it. And at least at the beginning, before I started talking about it openly myself, I was utterly terrified.
It was only in speaking myself, but more importantly in seeing many other people speak out, that I was able to get past that fear. And like I said, I don't even create games! I can't imagine how much worse it would be for me if I had actually created any games, noteworthy or not.
Silence may seem like the best bet for people who are not actually getting the bullying, but to me personally it meant a lot to see prominent people telling gamergate in no uncertain terms that what they are promoting is bullshit.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Lurker interjecting. Gamergate=! gamer.
I guess I did have something to say, and chose this forum to voice that. I've been an avid fan of PA since a friend made me listen to the audio post of the support call gone wrong. I've read almost every word posted since, but was never active. I suppose I got to thinking that maybe I'd try to something right, with a group of folks that have been open minded to all kinds of subjects, but who am I to say what's right?
Never meant to troll. I still stand by my point of view, though I do now regret forcing that on you out of the blue. I understand the pain caused by the harassment, and wish Cambodia's friend all the best in what ever she chooses to do.
I'd like to feel confident this isn't going to happen again when someone points out that a game might possibly be somewhat sexist, or points out that someone has acted somewhat sexist, or decides to make a game, or tries to support someone who has done one of these things. (Or does nothing at all and gets accused of random bullshit.)
I'd like this sort of thing to be a topic that could feasibly be discussed on major gaming sites without moderators having to hover over them 24/7.
I'd like gaming culture in general to not be so damn defensive about the possibility of people creating games or writing articles they might not personally be interested in.
Games are big enough for everyone.
See, the thing is, this didn't start with GG, nor does it end with it. I mean, sure, the hot topic of GG itself will end with GG, but the larger, deeper, and more complex issue of feminism and being inclusive is still a discussion that needs to be had, with respect, without death threats, without attempts at silencing the people on either side, without all the slurs.
You don't need to tell me that nobody will be mad if YOU and I disagree. I know that. But there are more gamers in the world than just you. You might not attack me or take away my identity, but as GG has shown us more clearly than ever before, others will do it, probably not to me, but to women, gay or trans people, minorities, etc. This is something many people in the industry (mostly women) have had to deal with for a long time. GG just put the spotlight on it, and made it impossible to ignore for all of us who don't normally get harassed or don't usually see this harassment take place because it's private.
Now it's too late to pretend it doesn't exist. We've SEEN it, clear as day, out in the open, all of us.
You don't need to keep talking about the subject if it makes you mad or makes your blood boil. But understand that this is a privilege that you and I have, as we're not the target of harassment. The targets CAN'T just pretend it doesn't exist, unless they flee the gaming industry or community, and that's not ok.
Feminism has not won. I think it is winning, slowly, steadily, but it has not won yet.
The discussion needs to continue.
My hope is that the existence of GG and its death threats represent the desperate last stand of a dying group of bigots, just as I hope that the big opposition you see in the US to gay marriage at the moment is just the bigots knowing that they're on the losing side and just throwing everything they have left in a last attempt to stop what cannot be stopped.
Hopefully I'm right, a slow cultural change will appear, the gaming world will slowly be more inclusive, and obviously gaming will not be killed or die (like those pro-GG people like to claim.) Indeed, it will only grow stronger and better as a medium. There is room for all sorts of games, even ones that do use tropes or stereotypes, if you really need them. We'll have art games, indie games, AAA games, inclusive games, games that don't touch any issue by their very design (think Tetris), games that will still appeal mostly to the "white straight guy" but that some/many other people also enjoy. Every time you create a video game, it doesn't kill another potential video game. There's not a finite number of games that can exist.
And more importantly, we'll be able to analyze, discuss them more freely. Just like movies. And books, and any other medium.
I was thinking a bit today about what one used to mean when referring to a geek or nerd, touched off by PA's D&D Star Trek thread (where someone said "this discussion is so nerdy it's physically painful." as a joke). Before I follow this track any further, I do want to say that I don't believe in geek/nerd "gatekeeping" and if you consider yourself a nerd/geek that's all that matters, no one else is allowed to call you 'fake' just because you don't have enough lore memorized or whatever. That said, the thing that used to make one a geek was not just liking video games or sci fi, but also this business of overanalyzing. Of spinning out every bit of implication as far as you could imagine. In some cases, of being so into a piece of fiction that you write your own stories based on it. Being a nerd, in some ways, meant thinking "too hard" about stuff no one else cared about.
The other piece of the puzzle is that currently "nerd" things are very much in fashion. People mock shows like The Big Bang theory, but that show exists at all because people want to be part of that culture. Basically everyone plays games of some variety now (even my parents play windows card games). Sci Fi and comic books feed our multi-million dollar blockbuster franchises. A popular, cool musician like Pharrel made an anime music video. We're living in the future that I dreamed of as a teenager, where everything I enjoy is readily available because of it's popularity.
Because of that, this current controversy, which is just the same controversy dressed up in new clothes, is not "a bunch of outsiders (feminists) trying to mess with the geeks (gamergaters) LIKE ALWAYS", but instead it's the the cool kids/jocks (gamergate) being mad because their sports are totally ruined just by the presence of those damn overanalyzing nerds that are so uncool (feminist critics, game devs, and journalists).
Perhaps in a way, it's the revenge of the nerds - now that they have power, they're going to take bullying vengeance on all those jocks who hurt them in high school. But those jocks aren't available. It's just us other nerds here.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"