Coulson is building the gifted academy because there is information in Fury's toolbox on the Skrull invasion. He is keeping all of current SHIELD in the dark because it is implied that all SHIELD and Hydra had been compromised. So Coulson is using outside sources that were previously of no importance to do all of this, because the chance of them being compromised is a lot lower. The big Skrull reveal will be a season finale cliffhanger, and S3 will be the Secret Invasion story.
Sorry, that can't happen.
Skrulls are tied up in the Fantastic Four rights. Marvel can't use them.
They can, as a race. They can't use specific Skrulls that the FF fought, like Super Skrull. Veranke should be accessible to them.
Right, but if the MCU uses them AND the FF movies... it's going to get confusing. I think Marvel would prefer to be barely associated with what's going with the FF in the films.
I honestly haven't been following anything with the FF movie. Are they doing the Skrulls in this reboot?
No idea.
They've really only shown neutered Doom as the villain so far.
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
Sounds like next week's ep picks up right where this week's ended:
And we’re obviously going to see more with Hunter and Coulson and Fitz based on this week’s tag, right?
Those guys are still together just as they were when we last saw them. We pick up there and take off. And really, this is the first time Fitz has been out in the field by himself since he got bonked on the head.
Also, the new ep art poster is pretty awesome. Not as good as some others this season, but a good 70s vibe:
Okay, in the main Marvel universe, you had the Skrulls, who were green, reptilian shapeshifters.
In the Ultimate Universe, you had the Chitauri who were shapeshifters, but who's natural form isn't a green reptile; they mention at one point that they're known as Skrulls in certain part of the universe.
Later, the Fantastic Four meet Skrulls, who are green reptillians who look like their main universe counterparts; they mention that they find the name "Chitauri" distasteful and IIRC, you get the sense the Chitauri are just a terrorist faction of those guys or something.
In the movie, the Chitauri are nothing like their namesake; they're weird gray/blue foot soldiers with no shapeshifting ability. The movie basically just took the name for its own unique creation.
The movie Chitauri later got added to the main Marvel universe (complete with leviathans), while the Ultimate Universe finally gave up trying to make sense and just have main universe style Skrulls running around with the name Chitauri.
So I dunno how specific Fury was with Coulson when setting up SHIELD Classic but
having a secret project that even your most trusted sidekick with the highest level of clearance ain't allowed to look at sort of screams Project Insight. What possible reason could he have for hiding stuff from his team, when this is the exact same thinking that let HYDRA exist within SHIELD. >:I
Not really.
The problem with Project Insight is removing the human from the equation; you want somebody on the action end of the order who is able and willing to disobey unethical or illegal commands.
Project Theta, based on everything we know so far, is about building a support network for the recruitment and training of powered individuals. It is a dramatic change of direction for SHIELD, who previously put all powered folk on "The Index" which was almost a sort of permanent probation. But it's also the more ethical and more pragmatic course of action.
Why hasn't he old anybody on his team about this? He's the goddamn director, that's his prerogative. They don't have need to know.
Not the end game or content of the project, which might be fine. The fact that he's keeping such a huge operation a secret is a problem. Management keeping secrets from each other is what allowed HYDRA to take Fury's Insight ball and run away with it. They were saying Theta is using as much money as everything else CoulSHIELD does combined, and May doesn't know about it. That's not a good way to be running an organization that used to have HYDRA nesting within.
I'm not sure. I think that issue was as simple as
Hydra just being that damn entrenched, to the point that the dude above Fury's head was HYDRA.
When you're that deeply entrenched, it doesn't matter if INSIGHT is secret or not: the people who'll take it over for HYDRA are there in position and at the helm.
EDIT: And that's jsut the takeover issue. There's a whole load of other problems with
Basically making a fleet of giant drone battleships designed explicitly for "DEATH FROM ABOVE" as their intended purpose
that don't have the "this is a top secret project" as the actual problematic aspects
If Coulsons secret project is protecting supers, and members of his most trusted team have expressed negative opinions about supers, and have traumatic pasts with supers, and could possibly become exactly the type of people he needs to protect supers from.... then maybe his not telling them about project protect-supers isn't as super evil as Admiral Adama and Ramsey from 12 Monkeys says it is.
But for all we know his secret project was a surprise monkey for Fitz's birthday.
"Coulson can't be trusted because he had alien blood controlling him. BOO!!! ALIEN BLOOD! SCARY! Also hey look at all this security clearance stuff he had going on that you didn't know about? Isn't that weird? I mean, we're the real SHIELD who didn't like how Fury did things, and now Fury's handpicked successor is doing stuff that you weren't told about (not that you had the clearance for it), ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL M I RITE?"
the idea that security clearance is what let HYDRA take shit over feels like an attack vector argument they're using because "ZOMG ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL" doesn't register as well as an emotional threat for the rest of his crew as well as the mountains of betrayal and chaos that the HYDRA reveal and resulting insurrection/takeover has.
"Coulson can't be trusted because he had alien blood controlling him. BOO!!! ALIEN BLOOD! SCARY! Also hey look at all this security clearance stuff he had going on that you didn't know about? Isn't that weird? I mean, we're the real SHIELD who didn't like how Fury did things, and now Fury's handpicked successor is doing stuff that you weren't told about (not that you had the clearance for it), ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL M I RITE?"
the idea that security clearance is what let HYDRA take shit over feels like an attack vector argument they're using because "ZOMG ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL" doesn't register as well as an emotional threat for the rest of his crew as well as the mountains of betrayal and chaos that the HYDRA reveal and resulting insurrection/takeover has.
Funny how they don't mind repeating HYDRA tricks against Coulson when they feel like it. When Coulson does something slightly Fury-like oh no, he's the devil!
"Coulson can't be trusted because he had alien blood controlling him. BOO!!! ALIEN BLOOD! SCARY! Also hey look at all this security clearance stuff he had going on that you didn't know about? Isn't that weird? I mean, we're the real SHIELD who didn't like how Fury did things, and now Fury's handpicked successor is doing stuff that you weren't told about (not that you had the clearance for it), ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL M I RITE?"
the idea that security clearance is what let HYDRA take shit over feels like an attack vector argument they're using because "ZOMG ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL" doesn't register as well as an emotional threat for the rest of his crew as well as the mountains of betrayal and chaos that the HYDRA reveal and resulting insurrection/takeover has.
Funny how they don't mind repeating HYDRA tricks against Coulson when they feel like it. When Coulson does something slightly Fury-like oh no, he's the devil!
Pretty much.
It seems their motivations come down to:
1) We don't like how Fury did things, particularly telling us to go down with the ship when we proved we could save the ship! (Shows what he knew!)
- Coulson is Fury's successor, therefore is not to be trusted, especially if he acts any bit Fury-esque
2) We don't trust powered people; they're dangerous and the Avengers are a moderately untrustworthy fluke!
- Coulson was brought back to life and under the influence of ALIEN BLOOD that he himself didn't even fully trust! Therefore he can't be trusted at all in this position, you should let us lead and also, you know, imprison or kill your scared, powered friend.
At the same time, there's a certain degree to which their motivations do make sense from their perspective.
At the same time I think we have the benefit of realizing as viewers of it as a fictional program and familiarity with other aspects of the franchise and the world of Marvel that they're in a world about to see an even *more* dramatic amount of flux, where we're positioned to see how their attitudes and perspectives are ill equipped to handle the change that's about to sweep into the MCU from it's previous status quo. Coulson on the other hand, if our theories pan out, is much better prepared to adapt to and embrace these upcoming changes.
At the same time, there's a certain degree to which their motivations do make sense from their perspective.
At the same time I think we have the benefit of realizing as viewers of it as a fictional program and familiarity with other aspects of the franchise and the world of Marvel that they're in a world about to see an even *more* dramatic amount of flux, where we're positioned to see how their attitudes and perspectives are ill equipped to handle the change that's about to sweep into the MCU from it's previous status quo. Coulson on the other hand, if our theories pan out, is much better prepared to adapt to and embrace these upcoming changes.
Even if they do have legitimate arguments, they fail to back that up even if we discount Coulson being the show's main character. They're awful at researching past acts and ironically have many things in common with Fury's SHIELD, without the good bits. Despite being a democracy they act like a dictatorship unless forced otherwise. The "good" people in Derp SHIELD barely hold the derpiness back and with Admiral Adama in charge they're on the losing side.
Did Captain Asshole get any repercussions for trying to kill Skye? I haven't seen any. Instead, it's Bobbi who has to appeal to Gonzales it wasn't the right move and she lost.
I love how we expect our TV and movie heroes to be allowed to have little flaws like having alien blood, false memories, back from the dead.....yet when a politician in Real life makes a slip of the tongue, we remember it forever and brand them with a large invisible X.
I love how we expect our TV and movie heroes to be allowed to have little flaws like having alien blood, false memories, back from the dead.....yet when a politician in Real life makes a slip of the tongue, we remember it forever and brand them with a large invisible X.
Sure, he's just in charge of an organization with as much or more power than any individual elected official could ever hope to wield. I mean, I know that he is a benevolent dictator because I've watched how he has reacted under stressful circumstances, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve scrutiny. Derp Shield's mistake is assuming they have all or enough information in order to pass judgement. Which is a pretty big miss for Gonzales, the supposed tactical genius, since the second line in 'Art of War' after "Know thy enemy" is basically "never assume you know everything about your enemy". So when people you claim to trust all start telling you that your information is incomplete, the correct decision would be to incorporate the new data and re-asses. Instead, they doubled down, which is why I feel like we are going to find out more about Gonzales backstory before any of this gets resolved.
On the flip side, I would also argue that in the "real" world people aren't exactly consistent about which slip ups are permanently damning and which are not. For example, the congressman from New York caught on tape threatening to throw a reporter off a 2nd story balcony was re-elected this year, while also under indictment for racketeering.
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Man, false equivalences between comic book TV shows and real world politics sure are fun! Let's argue about that for a while!
Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
Sure, he's just in charge of an organization with as much or more power than any individual elected official could ever hope to wield.
Like Gonzales. Neither are sanctioned by a government, though Coulson's team is unofficially sanctioned. Derp SHIELD has a boat with SHIELD plastered on it.
That said, it's not that they are in charge of organizations elected officials couldn't control, I'm sure both would be open to having SHIELD in a government structure again. The bad news is right now they're persona non grata via HYDRA's shenanigans.
I mean, I know that he is a benevolent dictator because I've watched how he has reacted under stressful circumstances, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve scrutiny.
How is he a dictator? He's running SHIELD like Fury did (probably less paranoid), he wasn't letting his subordinates kill anyone showing signs of powers that aren't intentionally harming innocents. They must have known who Skye is, yet they act like she's been possessed a pod person because reasons?
Coulson's SHIED does deserve scrutiny, and so does Derp SHIELD. Derp SHIELD isn't qualified to scrutinize anybody right now.
Derp Shield's mistake is assuming they have all or enough information in order to pass judgement. Which is a pretty big miss for Gonzales, the supposed tactical genius, since the second line in 'Art of War' after "Know thy enemy" is basically "never assume you know everything about your enemy". So when people you claim to trust all start telling you that your information is incomplete, the correct decision would be to incorporate the new data and re-asses. Instead, they doubled down, which is why I feel like we are going to find out more about Gonzales backstory before any of this gets resolved.
Exactly.
On the flip side, I would also argue that in the "real" world people aren't exactly consistent about which slip ups are permanently damning and which are not. For example, the congressman from New York caught on tape threatening to throw a reporter off a 2nd story balcony was re-elected this year, while also under indictment for racketeering.
It's AoS's own fault for not doing a good job of developing how SHIELD works and better establishing how it has handled these type of things in the past.
The way SHIELD treated powered people has been pretty inconsistently portrayed. In some cases it seems like they're pretty reasonable but in other cases, they completely screw over the powered people. Their policy on giving powered people second chances also seems pretty arbitrary. Mike got a second chance because he was a victim of circumstance but he did still hurt a lot of people. The knife hand lady was a victim of her circumstances too but she got screwed over. Creel was an asshole but it didn't seem like SHIELD ever tried to rehabilitate him. Blackout was abused and experimented on. I don't think they ever even said if Angar did anything bad, only that some radiation/surgery gave him the coma inducing voice.
It's AoS's own fault for not doing a good job of developing how SHIELD works and better establishing how it has handled these type of things in the past.
The way SHIELD treated powered people has been pretty inconsistently portrayed. In some cases it seems like they're pretty reasonable but in other cases, they completely screw over the powered people. Their policy on giving powered people second chances also seems pretty arbitrary. Mike got a second chance because he was a victim of circumstance but he did still hurt a lot of people. The knife hand lady was a victim of her circumstances too but she got screwed over. Creel was an asshole but it didn't seem like SHIELD ever tried to rehabilitate him. Blackout was abused and experimented on. I don't think they ever even said if Angar did anything bad, only that some radiation/surgery gave him the coma inducing voice.
They gave dangerous Gifted harsher treatment because they're actual criminals, and knife lady was given kid gloves. She wasn't locked in an asylum or anything. This isn't being inconsistent, it's treated Gifted like people judging them on their past and how dangerous they are. Every bad Gifted we've seen is a psycho. Knife lady murdered her bf and other innocent people, she's lucky they didn't put her in an actual prison or get the death penalty if it was a state that had it. There are levels to this. IIRC Blackout became mentally unstable and attacked people after his operation, he wasn't a boy scout. Creel is an asshole who abused his powers to physically harm people who didn't know they were getting into a match with a boxer who can turn his body into literal concrete and he was quickly taken under HYDRA's custody. He's lucky he didn't kill people back then.
Mike was an actual criminal, not just for doing tons of property damage, seriously hurting his boss, and kidnapping Skye but also for participating in an illegal experiment involving experimental drugs. It just happens that he was doing bad things to help his family.
We don't actually know much about the other bad powered people other than the fact that they did bad things. It's entirely possible that they also did bad things to survive. Creel used his powers to cheat in boxing but as shown in Daredevil, those fights were being run by the mob and the fighters were being threatened with death if they didn't do what the mob told them. Knife hand lady did hurt people other than her abusive boyfriend, they never said that she killed any of them, but how is that different than Mike hurting his boss? His boss wasn't abusing him or hurting him and Mike still hurt him badly.
As for Hydra involvement, you can't blame everything on Hydra. They couldn't have hidden themselves very effectively if their influence was so obvious. You still need to establish some basic premises on how SHIELD operates like their general attitude/policy towards powered people.
Mike was an actual criminal, not just for doing tons of property damage, seriously hurting his boss, and kidnapping Skye but also for participating in an illegal experiment involving experimental drugs. It just happens that he was doing bad things to help his family.
We don't actually know much about the other bad powered people other than the fact that they did bad things. It's entirely possible that they also did bad things to survive. Creel used his powers to cheat in boxing but as shown in Daredevil, those fights were being run by the mob and the fighters were being threatened with death if they didn't do what the mob told them. Knife hand lady did hurt people other than her abusive boyfriend, they never said that she killed any of them, but how is that different than Mike hurting his boss? His boss wasn't abusing him or hurting him and Mike still hurt him badly.
As for Hydra involvement, you can't blame everything on Hydra. They couldn't have hidden themselves very effectively if their influence was so obvious. You still need to establish some basic premises on how SHIELD operates like their general attitude/policy towards powered people.
The fire guy seemed pretty decent until the Centipede formula turned him killcrazy. From that episode alone, it looks like SHIELD rolled in hard whenever and wherever they found someone with powers and told them they had to stop using them or get disappeared. That's the kind of heavy-handed policy that makes you wonder, in retrospect, whether it was actually a Hydra ploy to make it easier for them to recruit powered agents.
Mike was an actual criminal, not just for doing tons of property damage, seriously hurting his boss, and kidnapping Skye but also for participating in an illegal experiment involving experimental drugs. It just happens that he was doing bad things to help his family.
True. He was also an edge case with unstable Extremis, when they fixed that he wasn't a threat.
We don't actually know much about the other bad powered people other than the fact that they did bad things. It's entirely possible that they also did bad things to survive. Creel used his powers to cheat in boxing but as shown in Daredevil, those fights were being run by the mob and the fighters were being threatened with death if they didn't do what the mob told them. Knife hand lady did hurt people other than her abusive boyfriend, they never said that she killed any of them, but how is that different than Mike hurting his boss? His boss wasn't abusing him or hurting him and Mike still hurt him badly.
She wasn't given an unstable drug that caused her to do those actions, she did those herself. Being locked up in a gilded cage was enough to get her to comfortably murder innocent people.
Creel also didn't have to use his powers in those fights but did anyway, which could have murdered people who didn't know who they were fighting. He wasn't Jack Murdock.
As for Hydra involvement, you can't blame everything on Hydra. They couldn't have hidden themselves very effectively if their influence was so obvious. You still need to establish some basic premises on how SHIELD operates like their general attitude/policy towards powered people.
He wasn't. It's important not to overlook HYDRA's possible involvement - that's how they got Creel under their thumb. Overall SHIELD's policy with Gifted is adequate.
Sure, he's just in charge of an organization with as much or more power than any individual elected official could ever hope to wield.
Like Gonzales. Neither are sanctioned by a government, though Coulson's team is unofficially sanctioned. Derp SHIELD has a boat with SHIELD plastered on it.
That said, it's not that they are in charge of organizations elected officials couldn't control, I'm sure both would be open to having SHIELD in a government structure again. The bad news is right now they're persona non grata via HYDRA's shenanigans.
I mean, I know that he is a benevolent dictator because I've watched how he has reacted under stressful circumstances, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve scrutiny.
How is he a dictator? He's running SHIELD like Fury did (probably less paranoid), he wasn't letting his subordinates kill anyone showing signs of powers that aren't intentionally harming innocents. They must have known who Skye is, yet they act like she's been possessed a pod person because reasons?
Coulson's SHIED does deserve scrutiny, and so does Derp SHIELD. Derp SHIELD isn't qualified to scrutinize anybody right now.
It's certainly not a democracy. Coulson didn't exactly open it up to a vote before starting
Project Theta.
You seemed to be arguing that because he is not running for office, he doesn't deserve the same level of scrutiny that the strawmen in the previous poster's world receive. I feel that the elected/not-elected nature of his job is irrelevant. If anything, he deserves a closer look than those hypothetical candidates, due to the risk and responsibilities he will be taking on. I had the benefit of being able already to scrutinize his actions for ~40 episodes and ~1.5 movies, so I know he is the right man for the job. Gonzales didn't have that and is right that they should be careful about who is in charge of Shield, just so very very wrong in how to implement or execute on that idea.
Derp Shield's mistake is assuming they have all or enough information in order to pass judgement. Which is a pretty big miss for Gonzales, the supposed tactical genius, since the second line in 'Art of War' after "Know thy enemy" is basically "never assume you know everything about your enemy". So when people you claim to trust all start telling you that your information is incomplete, the correct decision would be to incorporate the new data and re-asses. Instead, they doubled down, which is why I feel like we are going to find out more about Gonzales backstory before any of this gets resolved.
Exactly.
Yeah, he's been acting pretty irrational for a General. There's got to be a reason.
On the flip side, I would also argue that in the "real" world people aren't exactly consistent about which slip ups are permanently damning and which are not. For example, the congressman from New York caught on tape threatening to throw a reporter off a 2nd story balcony was re-elected this year, while also under indictment for racketeering.
What's Coulson done to compare that to?
The previous poster was arguing that we are happy to hand-wave Coulson's flaw's, but wouldn't with a real politician. I provided a counter-example, in which a real politician did something way worse than the fictional Coulson has ever been accused of and yet was still given a pass by the real electorate.
It's certainly not a democracy. Coulson didn't exactly open it up to a vote before starting
Project Theta.
You seemed to be arguing that because he is not running for office, he doesn't deserve the same level of scrutiny that the strawmen in the previous poster's world receive. I feel that the elected/not-elected nature of his job is irrelevant. If anything, he deserves a closer look than those hypothetical candidates, due to the risk and responsibilities he will be taking on. I had the benefit of being able already to scrutinize his actions for ~40 episodes and ~1.5 movies, so I know he is the right man for the job.
Coulson's isn't, I was referring to Gonzales' SHIELD. Coulson needs scrutiny, but not from Derp SHIELD. Where's Derp SHIELD's accountability? No one knows they existed before now, and they've been sabotaging Coulson from within in season 2. Coulson's not a politician, government agencies get their own accountability from the government - but that's not an option at present. Meanwhile, they're doing good work fighting HYDRA and Derp SHIELD...hides in the shadows attacking other SHIELD cells.
Project Theta's existence proves nothing. It's similar to the Avengers Initiative from what we know, and he's working with Mike - a proven reliable asset. Derp SHIELD wanted to put bullets in Skye for daring to have super powers. Why should I trust them again?
Gonzales didn't have that and is right that they should be careful about who is in charge of Shield, just so very very wrong in how to implement or execute on that idea.
Gonzales has all the facts he needs and here we are. He's on a witch hunt.
The previous poster was arguing that we are happy to hand-wave Coulson's flaw's, but wouldn't with a real politician. I provided a counter-example, in which a real politician did something way worse than the fictional Coulson has ever been accused of and yet was still given a pass by the real electorate.
The point is that if they had established a general SHIELD policy towards powered people then Boat SHIELD's actions would have been more understandable and maybe even sympathetic. If they had established that SHIELD always had a very strict policy about powered people, and that they've recruited agents who were distrustful of powered people, and that Coulson was breaking some long held tradition against using powers then Boat SHIELD's actions wouldn't seem so random and pointlessly harsh.
The point is that if they had established a general SHIELD policy towards powered people then Boat SHIELD's actions would have been more understandable and maybe even sympathetic. If they had established that SHIELD always had a very strict policy about powered people, and that they've recruited agents who were distrustful of powered people, and that Coulson was breaking some long held tradition against using powers then Boat SHIELD's actions wouldn't seem so random and pointlessly harsh.
I don't think that's what the show is trying to do with Derp SHIELD. They have good intentions, they're simply stupid in how they go about their goals. It's now about what Fury's SHIELD was like, it's what the show is meant to convey how the audience should reacting to them - and it isn't sympathetically. Excluding Bobbi.
At the same time, there's a certain degree to which their motivations do make sense from their perspective.
At the same time I think we have the benefit of realizing as viewers of it as a fictional program and familiarity with other aspects of the franchise and the world of Marvel that they're in a world about to see an even *more* dramatic amount of flux, where we're positioned to see how their attitudes and perspectives are ill equipped to handle the change that's about to sweep into the MCU from it's previous status quo. Coulson on the other hand, if our theories pan out, is much better prepared to adapt to and embrace these upcoming changes.
Even if they do have legitimate arguments, they fail to back that up even if we discount Coulson being the show's main character. They're awful at researching past acts and ironically have many things in common with Fury's SHIELD, without the good bits. Despite being a democracy they act like a dictatorship unless forced otherwise. The "good" people in Derp SHIELD barely hold the derpiness back and with Admiral Adama in charge they're on the losing side.
Did Captain Asshole get any repercussions for trying to kill Skye? I haven't seen any. Instead, it's Bobbi who has to appeal to Gonzales it wasn't the right move and she lost.
I'll reply a bit better when I get a chance [dress rehearsal tonight and so I was rushing even that post], but I don't disagree with you there; I definitely think big picture that they're wrong and they desperately need to assess some major flaws they have, but was trying to get into a bit of character analysis of them as a group
At the same time, there's a certain degree to which their motivations do make sense from their perspective.
At the same time I think we have the benefit of realizing as viewers of it as a fictional program and familiarity with other aspects of the franchise and the world of Marvel that they're in a world about to see an even *more* dramatic amount of flux, where we're positioned to see how their attitudes and perspectives are ill equipped to handle the change that's about to sweep into the MCU from it's previous status quo. Coulson on the other hand, if our theories pan out, is much better prepared to adapt to and embrace these upcoming changes.
Even if they do have legitimate arguments, they fail to back that up even if we discount Coulson being the show's main character. They're awful at researching past acts and ironically have many things in common with Fury's SHIELD, without the good bits. Despite being a democracy they act like a dictatorship unless forced otherwise. The "good" people in Derp SHIELD barely hold the derpiness back and with Admiral Adama in charge they're on the losing side.
Did Captain Asshole get any repercussions for trying to kill Skye? I haven't seen any. Instead, it's Bobbi who has to appeal to Gonzales it wasn't the right move and she lost.
I'll reply a bit better when I get a chance [dress rehearsal tonight and so I was rushing even that post], but I don't disagree with you there; I definitely think big picture that they're wrong and they desperately need to assess some major flaws they have, but was trying to get into a bit of character analysis of them as a group
It's certainly not a democracy. Coulson didn't exactly open it up to a vote before starting
Project Theta.
You seemed to be arguing that because he is not running for office, he doesn't deserve the same level of scrutiny that the strawmen in the previous poster's world receive. I feel that the elected/not-elected nature of his job is irrelevant. If anything, he deserves a closer look than those hypothetical candidates, due to the risk and responsibilities he will be taking on. I had the benefit of being able already to scrutinize his actions for ~40 episodes and ~1.5 movies, so I know he is the right man for the job.
Coulson's isn't, I was referring to Gonzales' SHIELD. Coulson needs scrutiny, but not from Derp SHIELD. Where's Derp SHIELD's accountability? No one knows they existed before now, and they've been sabotaging Coulson from within in season 2. Coulson's not a politician, government agencies get their own accountability from the government - but that's not an option at present. Meanwhile, they're doing good work fighting HYDRA and Derp SHIELD...hides in the shadows attacking other SHIELD cells.
Project Theta's existence proves nothing. It's similar to the Avengers Initiative from what we know, and he's working with Mike - a proven reliable asset. Derp SHIELD wanted to put bullets in Skye for daring to have super powers. Why should I trust them again?
Gonzales didn't have that and is right that they should be careful about who is in charge of Shield, just so very very wrong in how to implement or execute on that idea.
Gonzales has all the facts he needs and here we are. He's on a witch hunt.
The previous poster was arguing that we are happy to hand-wave Coulson's flaw's, but wouldn't with a real politician. I provided a counter-example, in which a real politician did something way worse than the fictional Coulson has ever been accused of and yet was still given a pass by the real electorate.
Those flaws being?
Sorry if I'm muddling things a bit, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding. I called Coulson a benevolent dictator, which you asked me to explain. I provided an example of at least one far reaching unilateral decision he has made that we know about. I trust that it will be proven to be a good decision, which is the benevolent part, but the far-reaching unilateral part is pretty dictatorial. I never really touched on whether Derp Shield deserves scrutiny (they obviously do, just to be clear), just why it's not unreasonable for Gonzales to think Coulson does (at least initially). As far as flaws, the Coulson they might have known was officially dead, how do they know this new person is even the real Coulson? He was injected with Alien blood and soon after started acting erratically, to the point that he didn't trust his own judgment for a while. Who knows what long term side-effects might still result from that (my bet is some sort of ability down the road, maybe healing factor or super smarts)? This is a world, remember, where Alien mind control of humans is now a known thing that has actually happened. Yeah, it's pretty clear now that Gonzales has an agenda he is hiding from everyone (hypocrite much?) and is now desperately trying to twist the interpretation of any new information to fit that agenda. I don't think that means his initial instinct to proceed with caution was wrong, just that his judgment is compromised due to something that hasn't been revealed yet (oh the irony!). Doesn't mean he can't be right sometimes, but, for example, we'll need more info on the boat's cargo before we can pass judgment on the decision to create Derp Shield in the first place.
If it's a bunch of meta children, yeah, good job guys. If it's the other ~5 diviners, maybe not so much...
Sorry if I'm muddling things a bit, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding. I called Coulson a benevolent dictator, which you asked me to explain. I provided an example of at least one far reaching unilateral decision he has made that we know about.
Which is up to directors to decide. That's what law enforcement, government and military agencies do with their leadership structures. We have no proof what he's doing is wrong, Derp SHIELD thinks it's wrong because they know they're going to his next target and they deserved it. God forbid Coulson prepare for war on an enemy who captured his people and tried to murder Skye.
I trust that it will be proven to be a good decision, which is the benevolent part, but the far-reaching unilateral part is pretty dictatorial.
He is the director, that's what director's normally do. It's Gonzales whose being unorthodox on running his group - not Coulson. That said, Coulson does let his subordinates contribute to planning missions and doesn't harshly punish them for speaking against him. Which he could have done with Mack. Skye did this routinely in season 1, and May's second guessed him as well.
I never really touched on whether Derp Shield deserves scrutiny (they obviously do, just to be clear), just why it's not unreasonable for Gonzales to think Coulson does (at least initially).
They don't do that thoroughly. They don't trust Coulson's words and can't test him. Coulson's days were probably numbered the longer he stayed their prisoner - May's ok since she's a friendly, they think he's a time bomb. We know what they do with super humans they feel are dangerous.
As far as flaws, the Coulson they might have known was officially dead, how do they know this new person is even the real Coulson? He was injected with Alien blood and soon after started acting erratically, to the point that he didn't trust his own judgment for a while. Who knows what long term side-effects might still result from that (my bet is some sort of ability down the road, maybe healing factor or super smarts)? This is a world, remember, where Alien mind control of humans is now a known thing that has actually happened.
Maybe, but rather than go for a soft approach they think he's guilty until proven innocent and haven't got any proof anything's wrong. It isn't even a priority for them to get better technology to prove their theory right. Instead Coulson's compromised so he has to go by force. They let their impulses control their judgments then force the facts to bend to what they want to think is right, and nobody is going to prove them wrong.
Yeah, it's pretty clear now that Gonzales has an agenda he is hiding from everyone (hypocrite much?) and is now desperately trying to twist the interpretation of any new information to fit that agenda. I don't think that means his initial instinct to proceed with caution was wrong, just that his judgment is compromised due to something that hasn't been revealed yet (oh the irony!). Doesn't mean he can't be right sometimes, but, for example, we'll need more info on the boat's cargo before we can pass judgment on the decision to create Derp Shield in the first place.
If it's a bunch of meta children, yeah, good job guys. If it's the other ~5 diviners, maybe not so much...
True, he can be right. The problem is he's most been wrong about everything and rather than learn from his mistakes he doubles down and takes Derp SHIELD with him. We don't need to know what's in the cargo to know they barely have any credibility. All the good arguments they have are obscured by bullshit and trying to murder and betray innocent people for daring to be non-human.
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They've really only shown neutered Doom as the villain so far.
Those guys are still together just as they were when we last saw them. We pick up there and take off. And really, this is the first time Fitz has been out in the field by himself since he got bonked on the head.
Also, the new ep art poster is pretty awesome. Not as good as some others this season, but a good 70s vibe:
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/16/new-agents-shields-art-evolution-exclusive
is that intentional
It can be hard to figure out some characters due to the art style on this one. I only don't recognize one of the characters thanks to the article.
In the Ultimate Universe, you had the Chitauri who were shapeshifters, but who's natural form isn't a green reptile; they mention at one point that they're known as Skrulls in certain part of the universe.
Later, the Fantastic Four meet Skrulls, who are green reptillians who look like their main universe counterparts; they mention that they find the name "Chitauri" distasteful and IIRC, you get the sense the Chitauri are just a terrorist faction of those guys or something.
In the movie, the Chitauri are nothing like their namesake; they're weird gray/blue foot soldiers with no shapeshifting ability. The movie basically just took the name for its own unique creation.
The movie Chitauri later got added to the main Marvel universe (complete with leviathans), while the Ultimate Universe finally gave up trying to make sense and just have main universe style Skrulls running around with the name Chitauri.
Comics! (and comic movies!)
I'm not sure. I think that issue was as simple as
When you're that deeply entrenched, it doesn't matter if INSIGHT is secret or not: the people who'll take it over for HYDRA are there in position and at the helm.
EDIT: And that's jsut the takeover issue. There's a whole load of other problems with
Guys I know what Project Theta is
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
the idea that security clearance is what let HYDRA take shit over feels like an attack vector argument they're using because "ZOMG ALIEN BLOOD MIND CONTROL" doesn't register as well as an emotional threat for the rest of his crew as well as the mountains of betrayal and chaos that the HYDRA reveal and resulting insurrection/takeover has.
Pretty much.
It seems their motivations come down to:
- Coulson is Fury's successor, therefore is not to be trusted, especially if he acts any bit Fury-esque
2) We don't trust powered people; they're dangerous and the Avengers are a moderately untrustworthy fluke!
- Coulson was brought back to life and under the influence of ALIEN BLOOD that he himself didn't even fully trust! Therefore he can't be trusted at all in this position, you should let us lead and also, you know, imprison or kill your scared, powered friend.
At the same time I think we have the benefit of realizing as viewers of it as a fictional program and familiarity with other aspects of the franchise and the world of Marvel that they're in a world about to see an even *more* dramatic amount of flux, where we're positioned to see how their attitudes and perspectives are ill equipped to handle the change that's about to sweep into the MCU from it's previous status quo. Coulson on the other hand, if our theories pan out, is much better prepared to adapt to and embrace these upcoming changes.
Even if they do have legitimate arguments, they fail to back that up even if we discount Coulson being the show's main character. They're awful at researching past acts and ironically have many things in common with Fury's SHIELD, without the good bits. Despite being a democracy they act like a dictatorship unless forced otherwise. The "good" people in Derp SHIELD barely hold the derpiness back and with Admiral Adama in charge they're on the losing side.
Coulson isn't running for office.
On the flip side, I would also argue that in the "real" world people aren't exactly consistent about which slip ups are permanently damning and which are not. For example, the congressman from New York caught on tape threatening to throw a reporter off a 2nd story balcony was re-elected this year, while also under indictment for racketeering.
Like Gonzales. Neither are sanctioned by a government, though Coulson's team is unofficially sanctioned. Derp SHIELD has a boat with SHIELD plastered on it.
That said, it's not that they are in charge of organizations elected officials couldn't control, I'm sure both would be open to having SHIELD in a government structure again. The bad news is right now they're persona non grata via HYDRA's shenanigans.
How is he a dictator? He's running SHIELD like Fury did (probably less paranoid), he wasn't letting his subordinates kill anyone showing signs of powers that aren't intentionally harming innocents. They must have known who Skye is, yet they act like she's been possessed a pod person because reasons?
Coulson's SHIED does deserve scrutiny, and so does Derp SHIELD. Derp SHIELD isn't qualified to scrutinize anybody right now.
Exactly.
What's Coulson done to compare that to?
The way SHIELD treated powered people has been pretty inconsistently portrayed. In some cases it seems like they're pretty reasonable but in other cases, they completely screw over the powered people. Their policy on giving powered people second chances also seems pretty arbitrary. Mike got a second chance because he was a victim of circumstance but he did still hurt a lot of people. The knife hand lady was a victim of her circumstances too but she got screwed over. Creel was an asshole but it didn't seem like SHIELD ever tried to rehabilitate him. Blackout was abused and experimented on. I don't think they ever even said if Angar did anything bad, only that some radiation/surgery gave him the coma inducing voice.
Knife lady apparently had several victims beyond the person who was threatening her.
Creel was
Which brings me to the big point that
They gave dangerous Gifted harsher treatment because they're actual criminals, and knife lady was given kid gloves. She wasn't locked in an asylum or anything. This isn't being inconsistent, it's treated Gifted like people judging them on their past and how dangerous they are. Every bad Gifted we've seen is a psycho. Knife lady murdered her bf and other innocent people, she's lucky they didn't put her in an actual prison or get the death penalty if it was a state that had it. There are levels to this. IIRC Blackout became mentally unstable and attacked people after his operation, he wasn't a boy scout. Creel is an asshole who abused his powers to physically harm people who didn't know they were getting into a match with a boxer who can turn his body into literal concrete and he was quickly taken under HYDRA's custody. He's lucky he didn't kill people back then.
We don't actually know much about the other bad powered people other than the fact that they did bad things. It's entirely possible that they also did bad things to survive. Creel used his powers to cheat in boxing but as shown in Daredevil, those fights were being run by the mob and the fighters were being threatened with death if they didn't do what the mob told them. Knife hand lady did hurt people other than her abusive boyfriend, they never said that she killed any of them, but how is that different than Mike hurting his boss? His boss wasn't abusing him or hurting him and Mike still hurt him badly.
As for Hydra involvement, you can't blame everything on Hydra. They couldn't have hidden themselves very effectively if their influence was so obvious. You still need to establish some basic premises on how SHIELD operates like their general attitude/policy towards powered people.
The fire guy seemed pretty decent until the Centipede formula turned him killcrazy. From that episode alone, it looks like SHIELD rolled in hard whenever and wherever they found someone with powers and told them they had to stop using them or get disappeared. That's the kind of heavy-handed policy that makes you wonder, in retrospect, whether it was actually a Hydra ploy to make it easier for them to recruit powered agents.
True. He was also an edge case with unstable Extremis, when they fixed that he wasn't a threat.
She wasn't given an unstable drug that caused her to do those actions, she did those herself. Being locked up in a gilded cage was enough to get her to comfortably murder innocent people.
Creel also didn't have to use his powers in those fights but did anyway, which could have murdered people who didn't know who they were fighting. He wasn't Jack Murdock.
He wasn't. It's important not to overlook HYDRA's possible involvement - that's how they got Creel under their thumb. Overall SHIELD's policy with Gifted is adequate.
It's certainly not a democracy. Coulson didn't exactly open it up to a vote before starting
Yeah, he's been acting pretty irrational for a General. There's got to be a reason.
The previous poster was arguing that we are happy to hand-wave Coulson's flaw's, but wouldn't with a real politician. I provided a counter-example, in which a real politician did something way worse than the fictional Coulson has ever been accused of and yet was still given a pass by the real electorate.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Coulson's isn't, I was referring to Gonzales' SHIELD. Coulson needs scrutiny, but not from Derp SHIELD. Where's Derp SHIELD's accountability? No one knows they existed before now, and they've been sabotaging Coulson from within in season 2. Coulson's not a politician, government agencies get their own accountability from the government - but that's not an option at present. Meanwhile, they're doing good work fighting HYDRA and Derp SHIELD...hides in the shadows attacking other SHIELD cells.
Gonzales has all the facts he needs and here we are. He's on a witch hunt.
Those flaws being?
I don't think that's what the show is trying to do with Derp SHIELD. They have good intentions, they're simply stupid in how they go about their goals. It's now about what Fury's SHIELD was like, it's what the show is meant to convey how the audience should reacting to them - and it isn't sympathetically. Excluding Bobbi.
I'll reply a bit better when I get a chance [dress rehearsal tonight and so I was rushing even that post], but I don't disagree with you there; I definitely think big picture that they're wrong and they desperately need to assess some major flaws they have, but was trying to get into a bit of character analysis of them as a group
Ok. Fair enough.
Sorry if I'm muddling things a bit, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding. I called Coulson a benevolent dictator, which you asked me to explain. I provided an example of at least one far reaching unilateral decision he has made that we know about. I trust that it will be proven to be a good decision, which is the benevolent part, but the far-reaching unilateral part is pretty dictatorial. I never really touched on whether Derp Shield deserves scrutiny (they obviously do, just to be clear), just why it's not unreasonable for Gonzales to think Coulson does (at least initially). As far as flaws, the Coulson they might have known was officially dead, how do they know this new person is even the real Coulson? He was injected with Alien blood and soon after started acting erratically, to the point that he didn't trust his own judgment for a while. Who knows what long term side-effects might still result from that (my bet is some sort of ability down the road, maybe healing factor or super smarts)? This is a world, remember, where Alien mind control of humans is now a known thing that has actually happened. Yeah, it's pretty clear now that Gonzales has an agenda he is hiding from everyone (hypocrite much?) and is now desperately trying to twist the interpretation of any new information to fit that agenda. I don't think that means his initial instinct to proceed with caution was wrong, just that his judgment is compromised due to something that hasn't been revealed yet (oh the irony!). Doesn't mean he can't be right sometimes, but, for example, we'll need more info on the boat's cargo before we can pass judgment on the decision to create Derp Shield in the first place.
Which is up to directors to decide. That's what law enforcement, government and military agencies do with their leadership structures. We have no proof what he's doing is wrong, Derp SHIELD thinks it's wrong because they know they're going to his next target and they deserved it. God forbid Coulson prepare for war on an enemy who captured his people and tried to murder Skye.
He is the director, that's what director's normally do. It's Gonzales whose being unorthodox on running his group - not Coulson. That said, Coulson does let his subordinates contribute to planning missions and doesn't harshly punish them for speaking against him. Which he could have done with Mack. Skye did this routinely in season 1, and May's second guessed him as well.
They don't do that thoroughly. They don't trust Coulson's words and can't test him. Coulson's days were probably numbered the longer he stayed their prisoner - May's ok since she's a friendly, they think he's a time bomb. We know what they do with super humans they feel are dangerous.
Maybe, but rather than go for a soft approach they think he's guilty until proven innocent and haven't got any proof anything's wrong. It isn't even a priority for them to get better technology to prove their theory right. Instead Coulson's compromised so he has to go by force. They let their impulses control their judgments then force the facts to bend to what they want to think is right, and nobody is going to prove them wrong.
True, he can be right. The problem is he's most been wrong about everything and rather than learn from his mistakes he doubles down and takes Derp SHIELD with him. We don't need to know what's in the cargo to know they barely have any credibility. All the good arguments they have are obscured by bullshit and trying to murder and betray innocent people for daring to be non-human.