Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Me and Lady Raven talked it over last night, and re: Clara and her Trenzalore splinters...
Pretty sure they no longer exist. We're on a different timeline now; originally Eleven is the last Doctor, he dies on Trenzalore, the TARDIS is his grave and the events of Name of the Doctor play out. Clara is splintered everywhere, plenty of backup versions of her to pick from. Buuut.
Those events also remind Eleven of the War Doctor, breaking whatever mental padlock he had on that version of himself, allowing the flashforwards in Day of the Doctor to happen, and then changing Gallifrey's fate. War Doctor doesn't push the button now, tho Nine, Ten and most of Eleven go by without him realizing that.
This also changes the Doctor's ultimate fate. Now he does not die on Trenzalore, Clara gets the Time Lords to hook him up with the new cycle, he survives and regenerates into Twelve. But that also means that his grave doesn't exist now, and that the Great Intelligence and Clara never went in there. There can't be backup Claras running around now, because the method she used to do it no longer exists.
I guess they could walk this back pretty easily, since it is currently a paradox that the Doctor ever met Clara now, but ehh. Feels like she's dead with no easy outs.
I hope the death sticks. And I hope that we get, not necessarily the Valeyard because you know, that discussion has been done to death. But a proper righteous fury Time Lord unchained, ignoring the rules of Time and Space.
We've had that a couple of times already, though, and it always ends with him getting smacked back down, hard.
Ten had his 'Time Lord Victorious' moment, which was quickly cut off by a gunshot.
And Eleven had the whole Demons Run thing.
But Clara had a good point; even if he did lose it and start taking actual revenge, he'd stop as soon as he realised he was hurting children.
I'm guessing Ashildr's going to die/sacrifice herself by the end of the season, or maybe in the Christmas ep.
Yep, and those moments were all properly terrifying and awesome and Time smacking him back down is amazing. I want 45 minutes of it this time, not 5.
Me and Lady Raven talked it over last night, and re: Clara and her Trenzalore splinters...
Pretty sure they no longer exist. We're on a different timeline now; originally Eleven is the last Doctor, he dies on Trenzalore, the TARDIS is his grave and the events of Name of the Doctor play out. Clara is splintered everywhere, plenty of backup versions of her to pick from. Buuut.
Those events also remind Eleven of the War Doctor, breaking whatever mental padlock he had on that version of himself, allowing the flashforwards in Day of the Doctor to happen, and then changing Gallifrey's fate. War Doctor doesn't push the button now, tho Nine, Ten and most of Eleven go by without him realizing that.
This also changes the Doctor's ultimate fate. Now he does not die on Trenzalore, Clara gets the Time Lords to hook him up with the new cycle, he survives and regenerates into Twelve. But that also means that his grave doesn't exist now, and that the Great Intelligence and Clara never went in there. There can't be backup Claras running around now, because the method she used to do it no longer exists.
I guess they could walk this back pretty easily, since it is currently a paradox that the Doctor ever met Clara now, but ehh. Feels like she's dead with no easy outs.
Plenty of easy outs:
She just gets back up. It didn't actually kill her for <reason>. Only reason there's any mention of no easy outs is because we know Coleman is leaving.
I enjoyed this, but found this bit slightly weird.
When she dies, you see her scream, and then it replays that like a billion times. Hammering it in. It's clearly meant to be dramatic but it comes across like the camera is enjoying it. Really glorifying her whole death. Felt very weird to me to focus so much on this girl screaming as she dies in a horrific amount of pain.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
There is still zygon Clara so the actress can some back.
Zygon Clara or Bridget or Bubbles or whatever her name was is now Osgood's double.
oh yeah i forgot about that
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Something that bugs me about this episode.
The whole thing just felt like an hour long intro to a real episode. That entire thing was just for some big bad to capture the Doctor. They could have done that in 5-10 minutes. It felt like they had to shoehorn Clara's death in somewhere quick and just expanded the intro to a full episode just to fit it in. Plus It doesn't even give you a glimmer as to what is really happening. Just cuts right when he's teleported away. In classic Who, he would have been teleported away and then you'd have seen the menacing face or shadow or voice of the person behind it, THEN cut to the credits. This just felt lame. Like, no real story happened besides the crammed in death scene.
I enjoyed this, but found this bit slightly weird.
When she dies, you see her scream, and then it replays that like a billion times. Hammering it in. It's clearly meant to be dramatic but it comes across like the camera is enjoying it. Really glorifying her whole death. Felt very weird to me to focus so much on this girl screaming as she dies in a horrific amount of pain.
It was just a bad call, stylistically, by the director. It's a somewhat frequent way of trying to "draw out" a death, to milk it, or simply to make sure people experience it, for want of a better term - it almost never works, though, and often comes across as a bit cheesy.
The whole thing just felt like an hour long intro to a real episode. That entire thing was just for some big bad to capture the Doctor. They could have done that in 5-10 minutes. It felt like they had to shoehorn Clara's death in somewhere quick and just expanded the intro to a full episode just to fit it in. Plus It doesn't even give you a glimmer as to what is really happening. Just cuts right when he's teleported away. In classic Who, he would have been teleported away and then you'd have seen the menacing face or shadow or voice of the person behind it, THEN cut to the credits. This just felt lame. Like, no real story happened besides the crammed in death scene.
Well, in ongoing plot terms, maybe that's all that was 'important', but that obviously wasn't all that happened. Rigsy was in danger, they met up again with Lady Me, they investigated the apparent murder, Rigsy was saved, Clara did something stupid and was killed, etc. The story that was told was part of a larger story that will be picked up next week, but that story was there in the episode, but this episode started and got to the end of the bit to do with Rigsy and the asylum street.
I dunno what 'real story' is in this context. Plot points that service the series-long arc? I don't think that's a useful metric of how much 'story' an episode contains.
We had to work out what else to do. At that point neither David nor Matt were under contract either. I had Jenna [Coleman]. And I did come up with a plotline that was just Jenna. It was a nightmare. We’re weeks from filming. A production team is assembled, people are doing storyboards and I don’t even know if anyone who has ever played the Doctor is going to be in it.
And meanwhile the entire internet is finding my email and sending me the most hideous death threats. Because I haven’t got William Hartnell back! And I’m thinking, “Well, one: he hasn’t answered the phone. I don’t know why...” But never mind him – I’m not sure if David and Matt are doing it either. I’m crouched in the corner of my office wondering, “What the f*** am I going to do!”
I disagree with the old doctor thing. I think a cameo by them would have done wonders, it is not as if they couldn't explain away the difference in looks. IMO they should have been standing next to the newer doctors at the end instead of that silly cgi. Not to mention they could have recorded new audio for that brilliant scene when all the tardises show up.
The only weird thing was not taking advantage of the fact that they had a perfectly fine recast first Doctor right there thanks to An Adventure in Space and Time, and never used him.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I still don't understand not using McGann. His short preview for the 50th anniversary was fantastic. I would have loved for him to show up towards the end, recounting his decision to become "A Warrior", and just look horrified at the decision his three counterparts had come to. That this was the end result of his decision.
It would have been far more moving than Clara dancing around and crying and whatever.
McGann was the Doctor for one terrible movie and a lot of audio adventures, and I know he's very popular among Whovians but he means fuck all to everyone else. The ten minute prequel thing was perfect. Having him in the episode itself would have been a dick stroke for old school fans. The Tom Baker cameo at the end was plenty.
That episode was as near to perfect as new Who has managed. I'd quite like to see McGann in an episode, but honestly in the 50th he wasn't needed.
McGann was the Doctor for one terrible movie and a lot of audio adventures, and I know he's very popular among Whovians but he means fuck all to everyone elseThe ten minute prequel thing was perfect. Having him in the episode itself would have been a dick stroke for old school fans. The Tom Baker cameo at the end was plenty.
That episode was as near to perfect as new Who has managed. It didn't need a McGann cameo.
McGann was the Doctor for one terrible movie and a lot of audio adventures, and I know he's very popular among Whovians but he means fuck all to everyone elseThe ten minute prequel thing was perfect. Having him in the episode itself would have been a dick stroke for old school fans. The Tom Baker cameo at the end was plenty.
That episode was as near to perfect as new Who has managed. It didn't need a McGann cameo.
Isn't this why we need it?
Whovians are like, maybe 2% of the Doctor Who viewship? There isn't a lot of point in pandering to them if it means the vast majority of the viewers won't know what the hell is going on.
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
I don't know the definition of Whovian.
I assumed it was someone who enjoyed Doctor Who...
I know the entire history of the show and MCGann is the doctor i wish had been retconned like Peter Cushing was. I grant you I have not listened to the radio broadcasts, but as a long time viewer of the show, The American TV movie was really really bad.
As for this episode. Some of you are talking about how 'its time we had a companion really die'. but thats a pretty odd point of view.
Rose - trapped in another dimension...happily but still trapped.
Micky - Same
Donna - Mind wiped from being a godly intellect into a bad comedian
Amy and Rory - Dead due to natural causes brought on by age.
Jack - Eventually dead even tho they made him an immortal...and a giant head.
Martha - Kinda close to a happy ending.
Multiple potential companions - Madam Pomador, The Maid from one of the Christmas specials - Dead.
I say its about time we had a companion actually choose to leave and live happily ever after.
Yes Clara has a massive amount of hubris right now...but One thing i dont like about the new series and about some of the articles ive read about this episode in particular...they seem to think the doctor is wrong for encouraging people to give a shit and do something about evil stuff going on around them. This is very unfair. Ever since the early episodes of the new series they have gone with a 'your companions are turned into weapons' like that is the worst thing anyone has ever done. She should have realized that taking what the doctor was trying to do into what makes up your morals is fine and well and good.....but The one thing the doctor has that you will not is 12 backup lives in case he gets killed doing the right thing.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
McGann was the Doctor for one terrible movie and a lot of audio adventures, and I know he's very popular among Whovians but he means fuck all to everyone elseThe ten minute prequel thing was perfect. Having him in the episode itself would have been a dick stroke for old school fans. The Tom Baker cameo at the end was plenty.
That episode was as near to perfect as new Who has managed. It didn't need a McGann cameo.
Isn't this why we need it?
Whovians are like, maybe 2% of the Doctor Who viewship? There isn't a lot of point in pandering to them if it means the vast majority of the viewers won't know what the hell is going on.
They can do both, you know. A new generation isn't going to get into McGann's Doctor when he's on the shelf.
edit: Besides New Who has been very liberal with using classic characters and species. Zygotes, the Master, Time Lords, Davros, Daleks, you the name it. The only thing they haven't touched was bringing back the classic Doctors who can and have been recast.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited November 2015
I have no complaints regarding the casting of the special. It was a perfect episode. IT's easy to bloat out an episode with pandering (and yes even though you've only seen him in that short prequel this would be pandering).
I'm glad they kept it as it is, because it was perfectly paced.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Aaaaaaah!
I was watching it from the BBC site, and my internet died one minute from the end.
The last bit I saw, he'd spent something like 50 million years punching a hole in the barrier, did he get through by the end? It cut out just as he was explaining the bird thing.
Something that confused someone I was watching with and I didn't feel was explained
Why didn't the harder than diamond substance reset like everything else?
Only the contents of each room resets when you leave the room. This is why the skulls at the bottom of the sea don't reset, and also why the doctor's skull is still there when he 'teleports' in, because he technically never left the room. I think it's safe to assume the diamond substance is also outside of a room.
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
Aaaaaaah!
I was watching it from the BBC site, and my internet died one minute from the end.
The last bit I saw, he'd spent something like 50 million years punching a hole in the barrier, did he get through by the end? It cut out just as he was explaining the bird thing.
He gets through after about 2 Billion (I think) years. On the other side is Gallifrey and the prison was his confession dial. Also The Doctor claims to be be the Hybrid so it's likely to all be kicking off next week
Aaaaaaah!
I was watching it from the BBC site, and my internet died one minute from the end.
The last bit I saw, he'd spent something like 50 million years punching a hole in the barrier, did he get through by the end? It cut out just as he was explaining the bird thing.
He gets through after about 2 Billion (I think) years. On the other side is Gallifrey and the prison was his confession dial. Also The Doctor claims to be be the Hybrid so it's likely to all be kicking off next week
Just watched the last bit.
Guess about next week: He didn't say 'I am the Hybrid', he said '[The Hybrid] is me'.
Now, did he mean himself, or did he mean Me? As in, the immortal human he created?
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
Aaaaaaah!
I was watching it from the BBC site, and my internet died one minute from the end.
The last bit I saw, he'd spent something like 50 million years punching a hole in the barrier, did he get through by the end? It cut out just as he was explaining the bird thing.
He gets through after about 2 Billion (I think) years. On the other side is Gallifrey and the prison was his confession dial. Also The Doctor claims to be be the Hybrid so it's likely to all be kicking off next week
Just watched the last bit.
Guess about next week: He didn't say 'I am the Hybrid', he said '[The Hybrid] is me'.
Now, did he mean himself, or did he mean Me? As in, the immortal human he created?
That....is a very good catch that I missed entirely!
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Lots of questions:
So did he really die all those times inside the (Gallifreyan?) device, or was it all some kind of torturous simulation? Did all those years really pass in the real world?
Was he really making copies of himself, or simply experiencing his mind being reset? I really liked all the TARDIS/mind palace sequences, very Sherlock-eque.
I know the entire history of the show and MCGann is the doctor i wish had been retconned like Peter Cushing was. I grant you I have not listened to the radio broadcasts, but as a long time viewer of the show, The American TV movie was really really bad.
As for this episode. Some of you are talking about how 'its time we had a companion really die'. but thats a pretty odd point of view.
Rose - trapped in another dimension...happily but still trapped.
Micky - Same
Donna - Mind wiped from being a godly intellect into a bad comedian
Amy and Rory - Dead due to natural causes brought on by age.
Jack - Eventually dead even tho they made him an immortal...and a giant head.
Martha - Kinda close to a happy ending.
Multiple potential companions - Madam Pomador, The Maid from one of the Christmas specials - Dead.
I say its about time we had a companion actually choose to leave and live happily ever after.
Yes Clara has a massive amount of hubris right now...but One thing i dont like about the new series and about some of the articles ive read about this episode in particular...they seem to think the doctor is wrong for encouraging people to give a shit and do something about evil stuff going on around them. This is very unfair. Ever since the early episodes of the new series they have gone with a 'your companions are turned into weapons' like that is the worst thing anyone has ever done. She should have realized that taking what the doctor was trying to do into what makes up your morals is fine and well and good.....but The one thing the doctor has that you will not is 12 backup lives in case he gets killed doing the right thing.
Micky's back in his original/the normally followed universe, if memory serves; he's married to Martha now and they're both some kind of soldiers/fighters.
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Those events also remind Eleven of the War Doctor, breaking whatever mental padlock he had on that version of himself, allowing the flashforwards in Day of the Doctor to happen, and then changing Gallifrey's fate. War Doctor doesn't push the button now, tho Nine, Ten and most of Eleven go by without him realizing that.
This also changes the Doctor's ultimate fate. Now he does not die on Trenzalore, Clara gets the Time Lords to hook him up with the new cycle, he survives and regenerates into Twelve. But that also means that his grave doesn't exist now, and that the Great Intelligence and Clara never went in there. There can't be backup Claras running around now, because the method she used to do it no longer exists.
I guess they could walk this back pretty easily, since it is currently a paradox that the Doctor ever met Clara now, but ehh. Feels like she's dead with no easy outs.
Plenty of easy outs:
Or you know. This being Doctor Who they could find some other way to bring her back if they really wanted to.
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oh yeah i forgot about that
I dunno what 'real story' is in this context. Plot points that service the series-long arc? I don't think that's a useful metric of how much 'story' an episode contains.
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It would have been far more moving than Clara dancing around and crying and whatever.
That episode was as near to perfect as new Who has managed. I'd quite like to see McGann in an episode, but honestly in the 50th he wasn't needed.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Isn't this why we need it?
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Whovians are like, maybe 2% of the Doctor Who viewship? There isn't a lot of point in pandering to them if it means the vast majority of the viewers won't know what the hell is going on.
I assumed it was someone who enjoyed Doctor Who...
In this context I'm using it to mean the kind of hardcore fan who knows the entire history of the show, not just the new stuff.
As for this episode. Some of you are talking about how 'its time we had a companion really die'. but thats a pretty odd point of view.
Rose - trapped in another dimension...happily but still trapped.
Micky - Same
Donna - Mind wiped from being a godly intellect into a bad comedian
Amy and Rory - Dead due to natural causes brought on by age.
Jack - Eventually dead even tho they made him an immortal...and a giant head.
Martha - Kinda close to a happy ending.
Multiple potential companions - Madam Pomador, The Maid from one of the Christmas specials - Dead.
I say its about time we had a companion actually choose to leave and live happily ever after.
Yes Clara has a massive amount of hubris right now...but One thing i dont like about the new series and about some of the articles ive read about this episode in particular...they seem to think the doctor is wrong for encouraging people to give a shit and do something about evil stuff going on around them. This is very unfair. Ever since the early episodes of the new series they have gone with a 'your companions are turned into weapons' like that is the worst thing anyone has ever done. She should have realized that taking what the doctor was trying to do into what makes up your morals is fine and well and good.....but The one thing the doctor has that you will not is 12 backup lives in case he gets killed doing the right thing.
They can do both, you know. A new generation isn't going to get into McGann's Doctor when he's on the shelf.
edit: Besides New Who has been very liberal with using classic characters and species. Zygotes, the Master, Time Lords, Davros, Daleks, you the name it. The only thing they haven't touched was bringing back the classic Doctors who can and have been recast.
It's really no different than my desire to see Hurt.
I'm glad they kept it as it is, because it was perfectly paced.
That Hartnell stuff is kinda funny because he has speaking lines in Lego Dimensions which Im sure will keep those types of people confused
I was watching it from the BBC site, and my internet died one minute from the end.
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I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
Is the suggestion that
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Just watched the last bit.
Now, did he mean himself, or did he mean Me? As in, the immortal human he created?
That....is a very good catch that I missed entirely!
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Was he really making copies of himself, or simply experiencing his mind being reset? I really liked all the TARDIS/mind palace sequences, very Sherlock-eque.
Cool episode.
I'm really looking forward to next week.
This is a three-parter, yes ?
Micky's back in his original/the normally followed universe, if memory serves; he's married to Martha now and they're both some kind of soldiers/fighters.