Not to mention that East 2014 had roughly double the pins that South had. I can't even imagine trying to fulfill multiple orders for the Leeroy pin. We camped twitter, and had someone posted at the booth, and the skywalk looking for that bastard, and still barely managed to get 1 pin each for our group.
Let's try and get the community working together on this rather than have one person stuck grabbing all the stuff. We should probably come up with a few guidelines as well. For example:
No whining.
Pin Pals come first.
Get your money to the proxy early. Anything not confirmed by Thursday night gets put to the bottom of the list until the money clears.
Anyone who doesn't clear the money by Sunday night deals with getting the leftovers.
Multiples will be given out in Round Robin order. Everyone wants two Core Sets? Everyone gets one until everyone has at least one, going in the order your money cleared.
Purchase Pins will be done before Timesink Pins.
Timesink Pins are a Best Effort promise. I watched the life drain from 00Fayt00 at South because he promised complete show sets.
If more people are on the list for Timesink Pins than are gotten, it's the order you ask that matters.
How does that seem to everyone?
Also, try and avoid Paypal. All the money rushing in apparently made Happendy's account lock up because it looked like he had run a scam on a load of people.
Just to piggyback on Pedro's list, I want to clarify a few things:
If you have a Pin Group with an East representative in attendance, please go through them, not me. This offer is designed to help those without a group. Obviously I can't police this, so it's on the honor system
As stated in my original post, this offer will only be for purchase pins. Between my set, and helping my pin group get their set, I simply will not have the time or energy to collect Timesink Pins. If another community member wants to spend their entire con collecting Timesink pins for people, I will gladly work with them in regards shipping and such.
I'll be looking at various alternatives to PayPal this weekend.
Unfortunately, some people in the U.S. also used the Paypals instead of my google wallet to send me money.
Google Wallet is just overall better.
Shoot, sorry about that! I saw both options, but had never used Google Wallet, and didn't want to deal with setting up a new account on an unfamiliar service. I didn't realize it would wind up being a big inconvenience. Sorry again!
If anyone is willing to pick me up one complete set at PAX East, I will cover all the monetary costs associated with purchasing the pins + I will give you $100 flat-rate for the "time-sink" pins and finally, I will pay the USPS Priority Mail Shipping costs after the event. I live in Atlanta, GA and have access to Venmo, Square Cash, Google Wallet, Paypal, or even an old-fashioned check if you prefer...
Any takers?
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PedroAsaniBrotherhood of the Squirrel[Prime]Registered Userregular
If anyone is willing to pick me up one complete set at PAX East, I will cover all the monetary costs associated with purchasing the pins + I will give you $100 flat-rate for the "time-sink" pins and finally, I will pay the USPS Priority Mail Shipping costs after the event. I live in Atlanta, GA and have access to Venmo, Square Cash, Google Wallet, Paypal, or even an old-fashioned check if you prefer...
Any takers?
Probably not until we see the list. Twenty Timesink Pins would be a problem for a single collector, let alone someone with Pin Pals.
Probably not until we see the list. Twenty Timesink Pins would be a problem for a single collector, let alone someone with Pin Pals.
This is what scares me about joining a pin group. There is no way I would be able to cover 4 sets for pin partners if there are significant time sink pins. If I did it at Prime last year I don't know how I would have managed the order, tiamat, etc, iron horde, or next level and still get to do my own thing at PAX which is play the games and go to panels. I really respect all you crazy kids.
PAX Prime attendee since 2008.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
Probably not until we see the list. Twenty Timesink Pins would be a problem for a single collector, let alone someone with Pin Pals.
This is what scares me about joining a pin group. There is no way I would be able to cover 4 sets for pin partners if there are significant time sink pins. If I did it at Prime last year I don't know how I would have managed the order, tiamat, etc, iron horde, or next level and still get to do my own thing at PAX which is play the games and go to panels. I really respect all you crazy kids.
You're only human. If I was in a pin group at the time, certain ones like Leeroy Jenkins/The Order/etc would just be too crazy. I'd have people send me fodder to try and trade, because it'd be too insane otherwise.
If your pin group expects you to get 100% of what you want at every PAX by yourself, find yourself a new pin group, especially if you're rocking it solo.
Thankfully for South we had 3/4 of our pin group, and for East we'll have 2/4. Collecting 2 sets should be cake, but 4 is just crazy, especially with the numbers at some PAXes.
Just my two cents. If you want to be absolutely crazy and get 13 sets, by all means do it. I for one like seeing different things at PAX on top of pins, and I'm not going to give up my full weekend going to an event I love to have a miserable time chasing what might be impossible to chase.
Of course there's other methods: Pin wifes (still hiring here!), trading, talking to people, etc.
This is just my two cents, and is just my mentality for this sort of thing.
Probably not until we see the list. Twenty Timesink Pins would be a problem for a single collector, let alone someone with Pin Pals.
This is what scares me about joining a pin group. There is no way I would be able to cover 4 sets for pin partners if there are significant time sink pins. If I did it at Prime last year I don't know how I would have managed the order, tiamat, etc, iron horde, or next level and still get to do my own thing at PAX which is play the games and go to panels. I really respect all you crazy kids.
Typically you can get it done for your Pin group, or you can proxy for others. Doing both is a ticket to madness. That's why I suggested that we band together as a community and work on it that way. Most of the veterans are in Pin groups precisely because they know that the other three will cover their back at the PAX they can't make.
I'll certainly help out where I can, and I am luckier than most at East because I will have two of my Pin group there with me. I can get my own, be sure that if I ask one of them to pick up for me that they will, and it leaves me able to talk to vendors and gather information and prizes for the Podcast. I can also work towards getting a few Pins for the CPC Dinner set.
Anything that I do as a proxy will come after those obligations. I can help with the buying stuff, sure. But others will have to work on the Timesink Pins, and the only way to plan for it is to see the list. Until then, this thread is best used to gather volunteers for Proxy Pals.
i thought this was the whole point of enthusiast groups. Solo grinding 4 complete east or prime sets is hardcore no matter how you slice it.
We appear to have acquired a third level, the Filthy Casual. They get the Pins they are interested in, and they can increase their collections through the Proxy via money.
I wonder if proxying pins for everyone means I decrease the value of them.
Hmmm... next podcast?
I wouldn't say that is necessarily a bad thing. Many of us just want pins and have to turn to the secondary market if we are unable to obtain them otherwise. Some of my pins had to be paid for in cold hard cash like Leeroy.
PAX Prime attendee since 2008.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
Part of me is happy because more people get the pins they want, but part of me thinks it kind of cheapens the whole thing. Like, who is going to want to trade for the pins when they can just have someone buying them for them? Not that I'm really concerned with value all that much, but it really erodes quite a bit of the fun of going to PAX and getting all these pins for trade that now a ton of people won't want to trade for.
We appear to have acquired a third level, the Filthy Casual. They get the Pins they are interested in, and they can increase their collections through the Proxy via money.
<<<
I will enjoy the background laughter during that part of the podcast because I know it was ME!
We appear to have acquired a third level, the Filthy Casual. They get the Pins they are interested in, and they can increase their collections through the Proxy via money.
<<<
I will enjoy the background laughter during that part of the podcast because I know it was ME!
Thanks to Warren Ellis, I equate them to the Filthy Assistants.
Part of me is happy because more people get the pins they want, but part of me thinks it kind of cheapens the whole thing. Like, who is going to want to trade for the pins when they can just have someone buying them for them? Not that I'm really concerned with value all that much, but it really erodes quite a bit of the fun of going to PAX and getting all these pins for trade that now a ton of people won't want to trade for.
I agree with you there - I mean, if everyone gets a few extra sets to trade at later shows, but can't trade them away because everyone who wanted them got them via proxy already... but again, even if 50 people do this, how many pin collectors there are out there? 1000? 2000?
It's a interesting talk to have for sure.
Visit my website, thepintrader.com, the first Pinny Arcade store!
Well, this kind of arrangement can only exist as long as there are people out there who are willing to donate big chunks of their time, energy, and money to the larger community for little to nothing in return. The only reason someone would ever do it* is if they truly believed that everyone who wants pins should be able to just buy them as if they were at the show, and that the community is better off the more people have a given pin. They believe this so strongly that they are willing to offer up thousands of dollars worth of their personal resources to make it happen.
In theory, I guess it depends on whether you believe the primary pinny arcade experience is about trading, or collecting. If you believe that trading is the most important thing, then you probably dislike the mass proxy system because it reduces trading activity. If you believe that collecting is the most important thing, then you probably support it because it allows anyone to get in on the PAX part of collecting, even if they aren't able to attend any PAX events themselves.
In practice, there are no designated arbiters of what the community is about, and even if you wanted to you can't really stop someone from shouldering the load of a mass proxy if they feel like doing it.
I personally have no problem at all with the mass proxy system... but you won't see me signing up to be responsible for it any time soon.
* A pinpal group is a bit different than these mass proxies, as there is a quid pro quo going on there -- I will expend my personal resources to get pins for the group members at a show, and they will do the same for me at a different show.
Well also the proxy thing is not for the non-cash pins so you will still have to trade to get the entire set from a PAX. Unless the proxy is crazy (gets them all) and puts cash values on line waiting pins.
Well also the proxy thing is not for the non-cash pins so you will still have to trade to get the entire set from a PAX. Unless the proxy is crazy (gets them all) and puts cash values on line waiting pins.
This. Even though happendy was proxy at south, I still had to arrange trades to get State of Decay, Emberclaw, Ugin, and the LE pin so I think it still works out in the end.
Having someone to proxy gives me the ability to get pins for a PAX that I probably wouldn't be able to make it out to due to costs. Now I actually have some trade value for East pins as well.
dchoy on
PAX Prime attendee since 2008.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
Well that already exists, and it rhymes with fleabay. In fact all of it already exists there -- it's just that here someone has stepped up to donate the time and headache of getting it done for free (or nearly free; keeping merch pins etc.), while over there that time and trouble has been monetized into a markup.
EDIT: Sorry for contributing to the derailment of this thread. I love a good constructive discussion, so am prone to topic drift. We should probably take larger discussion of mass proxies to a separate thread, as Frostbye is actually trying to use this one to coordinate one and doesn't need us clogging it up.
So here's the thing... I went to PAX Prime last year and got at least 2 of every pin, including The Order (x3), Tiamat (x2), Blizzard Pins (x3 each), etc.
It's totally possible to get 2-3 pins of everything, especially when you take into account trades. I am planning on attending PAX Prime again THIS YEAR, so if anyone wants to get me a complete set at EAST, I will guarantee a complete set for them at PRIME (or give you $500 if something comes up that I can't avoid, i.e., car accident, family death, etc.)
So here's the thing... I went to PAX Prime last year and got at least 2 of every pin, including The Order (x3), Tiamat (x2), Blizzard Pins (x3 each), etc.
It's totally possible to get 2-3 pins of everything, especially when you take into account trades. I am planning on attending PAX Prime again THIS YEAR, so if anyone wants to get me a complete set at EAST, I will guarantee a complete set for them at PRIME (or give you $500 if something comes up that I can't avoid, i.e., car accident, family death, etc.)
Food for thought.
That doesn't mean getting duplicates are guaranteed though. I went through the Order line three times and didn't get a single pin. The main way to get the tiamat pin was through the panel and the blizzard pins had long wait times. I think it took me about 2 hours just to play Heroes of the Storm. Don't get me wrong, it is entirely possible to use 4 days and just farm pins non stop but what if you want to do other stuff? Also the Ubisoft pin you had to play like 5 games and some had long waits like Mordor. Obviously there were ways to get around this by just saying you played and get a stamp but still.
PAX Prime attendee since 2008.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
So here's the thing... I went to PAX Prime last year and got at least 2 of every pin, including The Order (x3), Tiamat (x2), Blizzard Pins (x3 each), etc.
It's totally possible to get 2-3 pins of everything, especially when you take into account trades. I am planning on attending PAX Prime again THIS YEAR, so if anyone wants to get me a complete set at EAST, I will guarantee a complete set for them at PRIME (or give you $500 if something comes up that I can't avoid, i.e., car accident, family death, etc.)
Food for thought.
That doesn't mean getting duplicates are guaranteed though. I went through the Order line three times and didn't get a single pin. The main way to get the tiamat pin was through the panel and the blizzard pins had long wait times. I think it took me about 2 hours just to play Heroes of the Storm. Don't get me wrong, it is entirely possible to use 4 days and just farm pins non stop but what if you want to do other stuff? Also the Ubisoft pin you had to play like 5 games and some had long waits like Mordor. Obviously there were ways to get around this by just saying you played and get a stamp but still.
I feel like east was much harder to get pins then prime.
It's also if your willing to trade.
I never did the next level and only went thru blizzard, magic and the order once.
I ended up with 3 to 4 of each.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not mad at the idea, or anyone who is doing it. There may very well be a day that comes where I can't hit a PAX, or god forbid, one of my Basterds jumps ship, and I'd be right in the same boat and probably pretty thankful that someone was doing it. I just like trading them, and this tends to lower that likelihood is all.
Frostbyte (and by extension Happendy) are heroes for doing this. I think I saw Happendy at South and the stack of pins he had bought for everyone.
I'll definitely be on the lookout for the post with the official offer for proxy.
We appear to have acquired a third level, the Filthy Casual. They get the Pins they are interested in, and they can increase their collections through the Proxy via money.
Hey, that's me! I'm new to the pin game, and there's no way I could afford everything. So there's a handful of pins that I'd like and that's about it.
The Order: I went through the line 3 times and got a pin all three times. I basically drew an awesome mustache on the card the Sony reps passed out and I showed off my collection to the guy who was passing out the pins after the Demo. Worked every time.
The Next Level: I played the 3 shortest demo's and smushed the stamp across multiple pages to make it appear as if I played all the demos. I traded for another one.
The Blizzard Pins: I waited in line for both, then I asked someone if I could have theirs as I was walking out and it worked in both lines. Just gotta pick the right person.
Everything else: I purchased 3 of each and used those to trade around for other missing pins in my collection.
As it stands now, I'm only missing:
- Aus 2013 Set
- Leeroy
- Viking (Behemoth)
- DLC
I'm hoping to trade for a Viking/Leeroy at Prime this year, as I have several rares up for grabs...
The Next Level: I played the 3 shortest demo's and smushed the stamp across multiple pages to make it appear as if I played all the demos. I traded for another one.
Another (probably obvious) tip: periodically check the trade table for timesink pins. One of the TNL pins I snagged was from someone who had no interest in it and swapped it for a Coffee Kemper on the table. Although, if you do this, it's nice to spread the love and leave some non-show stuff behind. Older pins that we consider fodder are actually cool for folks new to the hobby, since it'll be the only way to easily get it. I was new to pins at Prime 2013 and I fell in love with the shiny Aus 2013 logo that Jerry gave me.
The Blizzard Pins: I waited in line for both, then I asked someone if I could have theirs as I was walking out and it worked in both lines. Just gotta pick the right person.
It pays to be observant. The guy next to me at the Heroes of the Storm demo asked the Blizzard guy what the pin was for. He seemed entirely uninterested in it, so I asked if I could pay him something for it. He just handed it to me without a thought, which was cool.
Also, I have a spare Viking that'll be on my lanyard at East. Just look for the stupidly tall guy overflowing with pins.
I like doing the pin trading because it has opened up a whole new community to me. Great people.
I have promised Happendy that I would get him whatever pins I can get (up to one complete set; no duplicates) - but I saw the stress he went through getting the megaload he volunteered to get for others. It is nice to help friends, but I figure it is best to limit myself to getting pins for one or two others, that way I have time both enjoy the show and to get extra pins for myself to trade without feeling like I am "taking" them from someone else I promised to.
put me down as tentative @Frostbyte for requiring your services unless I am put in a pin group. I'll take doubles of every purchasable (please PM me with the amount required and where to pay), and I'll pay a reasonable amount for any time sinks.
Posts
Just to piggyback on Pedro's list, I want to clarify a few things:
I'll be looking at various alternatives to PayPal this weekend.
Shoot, sorry about that! I saw both options, but had never used Google Wallet, and didn't want to deal with setting up a new account on an unfamiliar service. I didn't realize it would wind up being a big inconvenience. Sorry again!
Any takers?
Probably not until we see the list. Twenty Timesink Pins would be a problem for a single collector, let alone someone with Pin Pals.
Nusquam Findi Factionis
My Digital Pin Lanyard
This is what scares me about joining a pin group. There is no way I would be able to cover 4 sets for pin partners if there are significant time sink pins. If I did it at Prime last year I don't know how I would have managed the order, tiamat, etc, iron horde, or next level and still get to do my own thing at PAX which is play the games and go to panels. I really respect all you crazy kids.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dchoy
You're only human. If I was in a pin group at the time, certain ones like Leeroy Jenkins/The Order/etc would just be too crazy. I'd have people send me fodder to try and trade, because it'd be too insane otherwise.
If your pin group expects you to get 100% of what you want at every PAX by yourself, find yourself a new pin group, especially if you're rocking it solo.
Thankfully for South we had 3/4 of our pin group, and for East we'll have 2/4. Collecting 2 sets should be cake, but 4 is just crazy, especially with the numbers at some PAXes.
Just my two cents. If you want to be absolutely crazy and get 13 sets, by all means do it. I for one like seeing different things at PAX on top of pins, and I'm not going to give up my full weekend going to an event I love to have a miserable time chasing what might be impossible to chase.
Of course there's other methods: Pin wifes (still hiring here!), trading, talking to people, etc.
This is just my two cents, and is just my mentality for this sort of thing.
Trade me pins! - https://pinnypals.com/pals/TheAggroCraig
Typically you can get it done for your Pin group, or you can proxy for others. Doing both is a ticket to madness. That's why I suggested that we band together as a community and work on it that way. Most of the veterans are in Pin groups precisely because they know that the other three will cover their back at the PAX they can't make.
I'll certainly help out where I can, and I am luckier than most at East because I will have two of my Pin group there with me. I can get my own, be sure that if I ask one of them to pick up for me that they will, and it leaves me able to talk to vendors and gather information and prizes for the Podcast. I can also work towards getting a few Pins for the CPC Dinner set.
Anything that I do as a proxy will come after those obligations. I can help with the buying stuff, sure. But others will have to work on the Timesink Pins, and the only way to plan for it is to see the list. Until then, this thread is best used to gather volunteers for Proxy Pals.
Nusquam Findi Factionis
My Digital Pin Lanyard
We appear to have acquired a third level, the Filthy Casual. They get the Pins they are interested in, and they can increase their collections through the Proxy via money.
Nusquam Findi Factionis
My Digital Pin Lanyard
Hmmm... next podcast?
I wouldn't say that is necessarily a bad thing. Many of us just want pins and have to turn to the secondary market if we are unable to obtain them otherwise. Some of my pins had to be paid for in cold hard cash like Leeroy.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dchoy
Check out my YouTube Pinny Arcade Videos!
<<<
I will enjoy the background laughter during that part of the podcast because I know it was ME!
https://pinnypals.com/pals/Evenstar
Thanks to Warren Ellis, I equate them to the Filthy Assistants.
Nusquam Findi Factionis
My Digital Pin Lanyard
I agree with you there - I mean, if everyone gets a few extra sets to trade at later shows, but can't trade them away because everyone who wanted them got them via proxy already... but again, even if 50 people do this, how many pin collectors there are out there? 1000? 2000?
It's a interesting talk to have for sure.
In theory, I guess it depends on whether you believe the primary pinny arcade experience is about trading, or collecting. If you believe that trading is the most important thing, then you probably dislike the mass proxy system because it reduces trading activity. If you believe that collecting is the most important thing, then you probably support it because it allows anyone to get in on the PAX part of collecting, even if they aren't able to attend any PAX events themselves.
In practice, there are no designated arbiters of what the community is about, and even if you wanted to you can't really stop someone from shouldering the load of a mass proxy if they feel like doing it.
I personally have no problem at all with the mass proxy system... but you won't see me signing up to be responsible for it any time soon.
* A pinpal group is a bit different than these mass proxies, as there is a quid pro quo going on there -- I will expend my personal resources to get pins for the group members at a show, and they will do the same for me at a different show.
http://pinmash.info - Two pins enter, one pins leaves... then the other pin leaves with a lower Elo rating
So ya, works for everyone in my opinion.
This. Even though happendy was proxy at south, I still had to arrange trades to get State of Decay, Emberclaw, Ugin, and the LE pin so I think it still works out in the end.
Having someone to proxy gives me the ability to get pins for a PAX that I probably wouldn't be able to make it out to due to costs. Now I actually have some trade value for East pins as well.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dchoy
Well that already exists, and it rhymes with fleabay. In fact all of it already exists there -- it's just that here someone has stepped up to donate the time and headache of getting it done for free (or nearly free; keeping merch pins etc.), while over there that time and trouble has been monetized into a markup.
EDIT: Sorry for contributing to the derailment of this thread. I love a good constructive discussion, so am prone to topic drift. We should probably take larger discussion of mass proxies to a separate thread, as Frostbye is actually trying to use this one to coordinate one and doesn't need us clogging it up.
http://pinmash.info - Two pins enter, one pins leaves... then the other pin leaves with a lower Elo rating
It's totally possible to get 2-3 pins of everything, especially when you take into account trades. I am planning on attending PAX Prime again THIS YEAR, so if anyone wants to get me a complete set at EAST, I will guarantee a complete set for them at PRIME (or give you $500 if something comes up that I can't avoid, i.e., car accident, family death, etc.)
Food for thought.
That doesn't mean getting duplicates are guaranteed though. I went through the Order line three times and didn't get a single pin. The main way to get the tiamat pin was through the panel and the blizzard pins had long wait times. I think it took me about 2 hours just to play Heroes of the Storm. Don't get me wrong, it is entirely possible to use 4 days and just farm pins non stop but what if you want to do other stuff? Also the Ubisoft pin you had to play like 5 games and some had long waits like Mordor. Obviously there were ways to get around this by just saying you played and get a stamp but still.
Another year of Prime gone by... commence the struggle!
https://www.pinnypals.com/pals/dchoy
It's also if your willing to trade.
I never did the next level and only went thru blizzard, magic and the order once.
I ended up with 3 to 4 of each.
Pinny Pal since PAX Prime 2013
Check out my YouTube Pinny Arcade Videos!
I'll definitely be on the lookout for the post with the official offer for proxy.
Hey, that's me! I'm new to the pin game, and there's no way I could afford everything. So there's a handful of pins that I'd like and that's about it.
The Next Level: I played the 3 shortest demo's and smushed the stamp across multiple pages to make it appear as if I played all the demos. I traded for another one.
The Blizzard Pins: I waited in line for both, then I asked someone if I could have theirs as I was walking out and it worked in both lines. Just gotta pick the right person.
Everything else: I purchased 3 of each and used those to trade around for other missing pins in my collection.
As it stands now, I'm only missing:
- Aus 2013 Set
- Leeroy
- Viking (Behemoth)
- DLC
I'm hoping to trade for a Viking/Leeroy at Prime this year, as I have several rares up for grabs...
Another (probably obvious) tip: periodically check the trade table for timesink pins. One of the TNL pins I snagged was from someone who had no interest in it and swapped it for a Coffee Kemper on the table. Although, if you do this, it's nice to spread the love and leave some non-show stuff behind. Older pins that we consider fodder are actually cool for folks new to the hobby, since it'll be the only way to easily get it. I was new to pins at Prime 2013 and I fell in love with the shiny Aus 2013 logo that Jerry gave me.
It pays to be observant. The guy next to me at the Heroes of the Storm demo asked the Blizzard guy what the pin was for. He seemed entirely uninterested in it, so I asked if I could pay him something for it. He just handed it to me without a thought, which was cool.
Also, I have a spare Viking that'll be on my lanyard at East. Just look for the stupidly tall guy overflowing with pins.
I have promised Happendy that I would get him whatever pins I can get (up to one complete set; no duplicates) - but I saw the stress he went through getting the megaload he volunteered to get for others. It is nice to help friends, but I figure it is best to limit myself to getting pins for one or two others, that way I have time both enjoy the show and to get extra pins for myself to trade without feeling like I am "taking" them from someone else I promised to.
Phrasing.
Check out my YouTube Pinny Arcade Videos!
I would love to use you...in the most PG sense possible (i.e. pin-purchasing) :biggrin:
Pinny Pals Lanyard
Pins!
Many thanks.
Pinny Pals Lanyard
Also, Happendy is a mad man too, but I'm glad he is and thankful for his services at South.
2015 PAX Prime Omeganaut (I will forever hate Katamari)
If I can make it to South again next year I will probably need to go ahead join a group.