comic version forces Daredevil to make the Punisher's choice. TV version has Daredevil find a 3rd way. Its showing that it doesn't have to be boiled down to Frank's way of doing things.
And crucially, Matt fails to save Grotto, so it still leaves you thinking shit, maybe he was wrong.
For me at least, what makes the comic resonate more is
you're so used to there being an unshown third way, it's common writing to the point where it is the standard, not the exception.
Matt deciding, and Punisher knowing he would pull the trigger on him, that just works so well. Because it also showed the same humanity to Frank with his speech at the end.
comic version forces Daredevil to make the Punisher's choice. TV version has Daredevil find a 3rd way. Its showing that it doesn't have to be boiled down to Frank's way of doing things.
And crucially, Matt fails to save Grotto, so it still leaves you thinking shit, maybe he was wrong.
For me at least, what makes the comic resonate more is
you're so used to there being an unshown third way, it's common writing to the point where it is the standard, not the exception.
Matt deciding, and Punisher knowing he would pull the trigger on him, that just works so well. Because it also showed the same humanity to Frank with his speech at the end.
I bet that the comic version doesn't end with
a rolling stairwell battle with bikers where Daredevil has an empty gun duct-taped to one hand and a heavy iron chain in the other, though.
Don't remember the episode number, so series spoilers
I really liked the scene with Fisk and Matt. Because right after that when Fisk dabbed at his split lip and went 'wait a minute' "Get me everything we have on Matt Murdock" I was thinking "Hell yes, they're going to do Devil in Cell Block D!"
Watching Matt screw up his biggest case ever because of Elektra is at once painful to watch and relentlessly true to the comics. Elektra's most defining feature isn't that she's a ninja, or Greek, or comes back from the dead, it's always been the way that she disintegrates the lives of anyone she becomes attached to, particularly Matt. She is a trainwreck given form (and boobs).
So far this season has been all about contrasting Daredevil with anti-heroes to show how he's different. I'm still waiting for an emotional hook to grab me (aside from the Punisher, they certainly sunk that hook effectively) and I'm hoping that they come up with something better than Matt + Karen or Matt + Elektra fighting random yakuza.
comic version forces Daredevil to make the Punisher's choice. TV version has Daredevil find a 3rd way. Its showing that it doesn't have to be boiled down to Frank's way of doing things.
And crucially, Matt fails to save Grotto, so it still leaves you thinking shit, maybe he was wrong.
For me at least, what makes the comic resonate more is
you're so used to there being an unshown third way, it's common writing to the point where it is the standard, not the exception.
Matt deciding, and Punisher knowing he would pull the trigger on him, that just works so well. Because it also showed the same humanity to Frank with his speech at the end.
Disagree. As Alan Sepinwall put it:
Ennis loves taking the piss out of traditional superheroes, and the comic story is designed to make Daredevil look like a complete sap who ultimately is goaded into giving up his ethics and trying to shoot Punisher (with a gun that doesn't work)
I think season 2 at its strongest is when it's about characters and their relationships.
Elektra as a person who both genuinely loves Matt and is also incapable of not being fundamentally broken on a basic moral level is really interesting. Matt destroying his own relationships in favor of being a vigilante is more interesting when it's less about THIS IS THE PRICE OF SAVING THE CITY and more interesting when it's essentially Matt the Addict hurting the people he cares about because of his habit, and Foggy eventually cutting him off as he realizes that. Karen's fascination and fear of the Punisher reflecting her own issues with her past. And then of course the Punisher, who was basically killed the day his family died and is now less after justice than just using violence to stop from having to feel.
The show at its best is really good at approaching what could be a rather cliche cast and instead treating them with a lot of psychological complexity.
Which is why it's a real bummer to see so much of the season given over to Generic Ninjas. Fisk in s1 was very similar to Matt, both of them responding to strong feelings about traumatic childhoods in their beloved city. Ninjas in s2 just do their shit because of their Great Prophecied Weapon or some shit. But we can't tell you what it is yet!
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
When the hand isn't around, I really like this season, even more than season 1. In many ways more than Jessica Jones even! When the Hand shows up all of those interesting emotional stakes go the fuck out the window and I'm bored.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
comic version forces Daredevil to make the Punisher's choice. TV version has Daredevil find a 3rd way. Its showing that it doesn't have to be boiled down to Frank's way of doing things.
And crucially, Matt fails to save Grotto, so it still leaves you thinking shit, maybe he was wrong.
For me at least, what makes the comic resonate more is
you're so used to there being an unshown third way, it's common writing to the point where it is the standard, not the exception.
Matt deciding, and Punisher knowing he would pull the trigger on him, that just works so well. Because it also showed the same humanity to Frank with his speech at the end.
Disagree. As Alan Sepinwall put it:
Ennis loves taking the piss out of traditional superheroes, and the comic story is designed to make Daredevil look like a complete sap who ultimately is goaded into giving up his ethics and trying to shoot Punisher (with a gun that doesn't work)
While Ennis does take the piss out of heroes constantly like Wolverine and Spider-Man in his run (and gets annoying with The Boys), he has said the DD/Punisher dynamic is the one he respects the most (outside of Superman since he's the genesis of a superhero).
Granted it's a Punisher comic so it will be to the benefit of Punisher, but it was done well. But agree to disagree.
I think season 2 at its strongest is when it's about characters and their relationships.
Elektra as a person who both genuinely loves Matt and is also incapable of not being fundamentally broken on a basic moral level is really interesting. Matt destroying his own relationships in favor of being a vigilante is more interesting when it's less about THIS IS THE PRICE OF SAVING THE CITY and more interesting when it's essentially Matt the Addict hurting the people he cares about because of his habit, and Foggy eventually cutting him off as he realizes that. Karen's fascination and fear of the Punisher reflecting her own issues with her past. And then of course the Punisher, who was basically killed the day his family died and is now less after justice than just using violence to stop from having to feel.
The show at its best is really good at approaching what could be a rather cliche cast and instead treating them with a lot of psychological complexity.
Which is why it's a real bummer to see so much of the season given over to Generic Ninjas. Fisk in s1 was very similar to Matt, both of them responding to strong feelings about traumatic childhoods in their beloved city. Ninjas in s2 just do their shit because of their Great Prophecied Weapon or some shit. But we can't tell you what it is yet!
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
When the hand isn't around, I really like this season, even more than season 1. In many ways more than Jessica Jones even! When the Hand shows up all of those interesting emotional stakes go the fuck out the window and I'm bored.
I agree for the most part
It feels like they rushed into the Hand sub-plot a bit too hastily. It's a classic conflict in DD but honestly felt like they could have dragged it out longer and slowly revealed them over time. I knew as soon as I heard Elektra was gonna be in this one, they would end up showing their Hand, so to speak. I also think they could have played up the mystical side a bit more.
Ep 12 spoilers
one thing that bugged me is to heighten the conflict with the Ninjas, Matt is unable to detect them. Then, suddenly Stick is like "listen to their breathing" which to me is crazy. Shouldn't it be easier to hear breathing than a freaking heartbeat? That whole moment was like... What?!
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
one thing that bugged me is to heighten the conflict with the Ninjas, Matt is unable to detect them. Then, suddenly Stick is like "listen to their breathing" which to me is crazy. Shouldn't it be easier to hear breathing than a freaking heartbeat? That whole moment was like... What?!
Yeah, that bit was weird.
It seems obvious to me that they wanted to have some understated and budget-friendly ways to get across that The Hand ninjas were supernatural. So they gave them the Morgul-poison weapons, the creepy zombie kids, and theoretically the ability to come back from the dead. That last one is especially odd, because they talk about it a lot but aside from Nobu being back and that one ninja having healed autopsy scars we don't see it in action. Some sequences of ninjas taking mortal wounds and just shaking it off wouldn't have been amiss.
Anyway, the ninjas being undetectable to Matt was another attempt at this, it just doesn't work as well. It's one of the rare instances in the show where actually seeing Matt's radar-vision might have been useful, because then we could have seen how the motionless ninja were blending in with the background, ala mud-covered Arnie seen through thermal vision in Predator.
Personally, I think they should have gone with a "less is more" angle with the ninjas. HaveThe Hand mainly keep operating through hired Yakuza thugs with guns and knives and only have ninjas show up in small numbers to provide a much more serious threat, as Nobu did in season one. Matt would fare better than he did last season because of the armored suit and having backup, but the ninjas would still be a lot more dangerous than the usual thugs he faces.
That said, one of my favorite parts with The Hand this season was the big car chase with Stick. I loved the idea that in MCU New York if you go into the wrong place and do the wrong thing, suddenly the night is alive with ninjas. The idea that they had rattled the hornet's nest and barely made it out with their lives was very effective. Would have been improved if they had a few of the ninjas that got hit by the car or shot with arrows just getting back up and snapping their broken limbs back into place or yanking the arrows out, though.
Fakefaux on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I think episode 12 shit the bed hard.
First, the kid Elektra stuff was bad, even with the fiction of a 12 year old girl having kung fu skills enough to fight three adult males, she'd drop with one Batman punch. And the kid playing Elektra couldn't even bother to keep an accent half the time.
Then you had DD's senses being subverted with the Hand, which was nice! But then to solve that all you have to hear is juuuusst breathe Faith Hill and that solves everything? JV bro.
But the worst part was the Blacksmith reveal. Holy shit, everything's going along fine and being a bit new with storytelling but they had to, almost out of some ridiculous Jeph Loeb mystery shitty revelation make it the marine commander because fuck you, that's why. No seriously for super reals, this had to be a Loeb mandated thing, it's just as crap as the reveal in his Hush story or any of his mystery stories. I mean shit, you couldn't make the military guys just be normal, decent military guys? Fucking lazy as fuck and I apologize for writing fuck so much, dammit.
And then they double down with dumb reveals with Elektra being the Black Sky and also being adopted, so even that one small part of her normal life (ignoring Elektra: Assassin) isn't even real, this is trying to be DC grim, yo. Hell, even the 90's Marvel Edge Daredevil comics are watching this TV show going "trying too hard, brah, and we had Matt fake his death again and have split personality."
The only saving grace was Frank finding that armory.
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
see, I don't get this
you ask "why should I care about the war?"
and you claim that Elektra is an "interesting unique character"
and I'm scratching my head, because haven't you answered your own question? You obviously felt the character resonated before you learned of her connection to the Chaste. I would think caring about the character would transfer, at least in part, to caring about the road she's traveled.
The thought "I am not interested in the Chaste" shouldn't lead to "Elektra's part of the Chaste? I must find her less interesting now"
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
see, I don't get this
you ask "why should I care about the war?"
and you claim that Elektra is an "interesting unique character"
and I'm scratching my head, because haven't you answered your own question? You obviously felt the character resonated before you learned of her connection to the Chaste. I would think caring about the character would transfer, at least in part, to caring about the road she's traveled.
The thought "I am not interested in the Chaste" shouldn't lead to "Elektra's part of the Chaste? I must find her less interesting now"
To me it kind of doesn't, though, especially when it seemed like they tried to explain her homicidal behavior on the fact that she is Black Sky, whatever that actually means. I thought she was more interesting as a thrill-seeking rich girl who lacked a moral compass because she never needed one. The moment they decided to make it all one big con to try and get Matt into their ranks, is the moment I started checking out on her character.
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
see, I don't get this
you ask "why should I care about the war?"
and you claim that Elektra is an "interesting unique character"
and I'm scratching my head, because haven't you answered your own question? You obviously felt the character resonated before you learned of her connection to the Chaste. I would think caring about the character would transfer, at least in part, to caring about the road she's traveled.
The thought "I am not interested in the Chaste" shouldn't lead to "Elektra's part of the Chaste? I must find her less interesting now"
To me it kind of doesn't, though, especially when it seemed like they tried to explain her homicidal behavior on the fact that she is Black Sky, whatever that actually means. I thought she was more interesting as a thrill-seeking rich girl who lacked a moral compass because she never needed one. The moment they decided to make it all one big con to try and get Matt into their ranks, is the moment I started checking out on her character.
I guess if you don't know anything about the comic book character I can see how you'd feel that way.
But in the comics, Elektra has always been wrapped up in dark voodoo bullshit. She's never been an innocent thrill-seeker, she's always been a shady assassin and a generally destructive influence on Matt and his life when they cross paths.
Matt: If we're going to work together, no sex. I have a girlfriend.
Elektra: K.
Matt: Now that we're done fighting, lets sit around mostly naked and caress each other's scars.
Tofystedeth on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Epi-soda 13
Such a fucking tease with the Punisher, I wanted him to ptew ptew all the bad guys before DD and Elektra tried to do their Young Guns final standoff thing rooftop imitate Ninja Turtles thing. But no, a distant killing of just 4 guys, and Frank probably didn't even see that was Matt as he walked off. Feels like that might have almost been the first scene Bernthal filmed.
The whole episode felt rudderless and there just because it needs to be a 13 episode season. Don't care that Elektra got a costume upgrade (she looked like even more of a tool in her trenchcoat), did like that DD now has his billy club to go wheeeeeee with even if he only did it once with no Quesada infinite string, Karen being Lois Lane is a nice choice but at the same time, Simpsons did it I mean Lois did it, and we got very little Frank. I did like seeing Turk show up, although that whole hostage thing seemed just pointless.
Guys, guys, I guess his name is now Noboo-boo, huh? Huh? Alright beer me five!
Plus the end, yuck, Elektra can't just leave us all alone and go to that mountaintop to sit for 20 years.
Overall it was a very good season, better than the first and Jessica Jones. Some of the biggest flaws now are consistent Netflix problems ie small budget, cheap CGI and repetitive locations (a warehouse is a warehouse is a warehouse), but what saved it was the compartmentalized storytelling, especially in the beginning. Whole season spoilers
It just really felt like the show ran out of steam following episode 11. Everything was ramping up fine, but it seemed like the show got scared Frank was just stealing too many scenes so just put him in cool guy time out pretty hard at the end, meaning we're saddled with boring ninjas and Elektra. And shitty reveals with storylines.
Elektra never won me over. I admit I never liked her in the comics, but this season made me like Karen and Foggy, two characters I didn't care for last season because their abloo abloo was over 9000. This year they grew up, got smart and flew out of the nest on their own. It was nice, and I hope Carrie Ann Moss is the replacement Rosalynd Sharpe in terms of Foggy's character as a lawyer.
But Elektra just got worse and worse. Making her a honey trap was silly, making her an adopted kid putting on a show was even more silly, and the entire femme fatale thing never landed. By the time we got to the stairwell talk about leaving it all behind, I just didn't care about them. Rosario Dawson's brief relationship felt more real, and at least she was a better written character. And I don't know how much of this was Yung's fault or the show's because I can't remember jack squat about her from GI Joe. Her shift from carefree psycho to troubled childhood chosen one felt like two young adult fiction writers got together and just wrote different chapters of a Katniss knockoff. It will really be a shame if she comes back, or even gets prominence over Punisher. No Elektra, bring in Mr. Fear and copy the Joe Kelly story where Karen is set up for murder, that can be a nice blend of court room and action.
I do hope they resolve the Karen/DD hanging reveal rather quickly next season and change it up from Foggy discovery. Have her be totally ok with it, all the bruises and broken glasses make sense now, go do stuff.
Bernthal was perfect throughout (I sincerely want him to be nominated for best supporting actor), as was D'onfrio, if they can be in a Punisher spinoff it will be so much goodness. I just need six episodes and I'll be happy, push it towards the budget being bigger per episode. Each episode is him killing a different mob family until he fights Tombstone or Jigsaw or something, knowing he's doing good but is also making it easier for Fisk.
More than anything I just hope they focus more on 4 episode arcs, that worked so well for the first 9 episodes. First four make Punisher complete in a way few TV shows can do, next two are sort of calm down, keep Frank's story going, until we get to episode 9 where he's finally back out there saving the day.
Blacksmith thing was so sloppy. There were zero clues pointing to the colonel until the end. In fact, I think that's why they cast Clancy Brown to play him. He's pretty recognizable and well known for playing villains. So they just decided to cast him because the audience would expect him to be the bad guy and they'd save the trouble of laying down actual clues to his identity.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
Overall it was a very good season, better than the first and Jessica Jones. Some of the biggest flaws now are consistent Netflix problems ie small budget, cheap CGI and repetitive locations (a warehouse is a warehouse is a warehouse), but what saved it was the compartmentalized storytelling, especially in the beginning. Whole season spoilers
It just really felt like the show ran out of steam following episode 11. Everything was ramping up fine, but it seemed like the show got scared Frank was just stealing too many scenes so just put him in cool guy time out pretty hard at the end, meaning we're saddled with boring ninjas and Elektra. And shitty reveals with storylines.
Yeah, the steam really runs out right around then.
First arc was Punisher, second arc moved him to the B plot while changing focus to Elektra and the Hand. For the third and final arc they needed to bring those two divergent plotlines together in a coherent way. Instead they didn't bring them together at all. If Bernthal hadn't shown up to snipe a couple of ninjas, there would have been no connection at all.
Blacksmith thing was so sloppy. There were zero clues pointing to the colonel until the end. In fact, I think that's why they cast Clancy Brown to play him. He's pretty recognizable and well known for playing villains. So they just decided to cast him because the audience would expect him to be the bad guy and they'd save the trouble of laying down actual clues to his identity.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
Another thing that irked me with that story line
How long had Frank been sitting off to the side of the road in that truck? How long was he going to? Was the plan to just hang out there for a day or two until Clancy went to grab a pack of smokes?
Karen getting a job at the newspaper and Ben's old office in ep 9 was probably the most gut-wrenching scene since Frank's graveside monologue in episode 4.
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
see, I don't get this
you ask "why should I care about the war?"
and you claim that Elektra is an "interesting unique character"
and I'm scratching my head, because haven't you answered your own question? You obviously felt the character resonated before you learned of her connection to the Chaste. I would think caring about the character would transfer, at least in part, to caring about the road she's traveled.
The thought "I am not interested in the Chaste" shouldn't lead to "Elektra's part of the Chaste? I must find her less interesting now"
To me it kind of doesn't, though, especially when it seemed like they tried to explain her homicidal behavior on the fact that she is Black Sky, whatever that actually means. I thought she was more interesting as a thrill-seeking rich girl who lacked a moral compass because she never needed one. The moment they decided to make it all one big con to try and get Matt into their ranks, is the moment I started checking out on her character.
they explained her abilities on her being a Black Sky
I'm not convinced the murderous aspect comes from that place directly, though I suppose it could. Indirectly, having power tends to result in wanting to use that power. It didn't help that the Chaste were perfectly ok with training her to kill, and Stick didn't do much more than slap her on the wrist for killing that kid.
I mean, people are saying here that the Black Sky is akin to a demon possession thing from the comics, which makes me want to draw a parallel between Elektra and Faith. Being a Slayer doesn't make one inherently murderous, but those powers in someone damaged resulted in people dead, dying, and injured.
Blacksmith thing was so sloppy. There were zero clues pointing to the colonel until the end. In fact, I think that's why they cast Clancy Brown to play him. He's pretty recognizable and well known for playing villains. So they just decided to cast him because the audience would expect him to be the bad guy and they'd save the trouble of laying down actual clues to his identity.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
Another thing that irked me with that story line
How long had Frank been sitting off to the side of the road in that truck? How long was he going to? Was the plan to just hang out there for a day or two until Clancy went to grab a pack of smokes?
I thought he'd followed Karen, realized it was his old Colonel, and put the tape in the car stereo so she'd realize he was about.
Blacksmith thing was so sloppy. There were zero clues pointing to the colonel until the end. In fact, I think that's why they cast Clancy Brown to play him. He's pretty recognizable and well known for playing villains. So they just decided to cast him because the audience would expect him to be the bad guy and they'd save the trouble of laying down actual clues to his identity.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
Another thing that irked me with that story line
How long had Frank been sitting off to the side of the road in that truck? How long was he going to? Was the plan to just hang out there for a day or two until Clancy went to grab a pack of smokes?
I thought he'd followed Karen, realized it was his old Colonel, and put the tape in the car stereo so she'd realize he was about.
Blacksmith thing was so sloppy. There were zero clues pointing to the colonel until the end. In fact, I think that's why they cast Clancy Brown to play him. He's pretty recognizable and well known for playing villains. So they just decided to cast him because the audience would expect him to be the bad guy and they'd save the trouble of laying down actual clues to his identity.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
Another thing that irked me with that story line
How long had Frank been sitting off to the side of the road in that truck? How long was he going to? Was the plan to just hang out there for a day or two until Clancy went to grab a pack of smokes?
I thought he'd followed Karen, realized it was his old Colonel, and put the tape in the car stereo so she'd realize he was about.
This makes sense
I think Frank had already figured out it was the Colonel when all the guys turned up at the boat. Right before it blows up one guy shouts something along the lines of "Good to see you again Frank"; this is the guy from Frank's unit that Karen recognises in the photo.
Blacksmith thing was so sloppy. There were zero clues pointing to the colonel until the end. In fact, I think that's why they cast Clancy Brown to play him. He's pretty recognizable and well known for playing villains. So they just decided to cast him because the audience would expect him to be the bad guy and they'd save the trouble of laying down actual clues to his identity.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
Another thing that irked me with that story line
How long had Frank been sitting off to the side of the road in that truck? How long was he going to? Was the plan to just hang out there for a day or two until Clancy went to grab a pack of smokes?
I thought he'd followed Karen, realized it was his old Colonel, and put the tape in the car stereo so she'd realize he was about.
This makes sense
I think Frank had already figured out it was the Colonel when all the guys turned up at the boat. Right before it blows up one guy shouts something along the lines of "Good to see you again Frank"; this is the guy from Frank's unit that Karen recognises in the photo.
Frank was lying in wait for the Colonel, since he knew what was up when that guy showed up at the boat. He was probably being cautious because he knew the colonel was the kind of guy who keeps a minigun in his garden shed.
Karen likely fucked up his well-staged ambush, so he had to improvise. He planted the tape so that she would be ready when he moved, then struck when he had the chance.
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
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FakefauxCóiste BodharDriving John McCain to meet some Iraqis who'd very much like to make his acquaintanceRegistered Userregular
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Why?
He freaked out when Elektra slices the young Ninja's throat in his apartment
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Hand definately don't count. That's the reason for the resurrecting thing. Either they're just going to come back or they're already dead so the whole thing is moot.
That's kind of why Hand Ninjas in the comics. So Matt and Co have somebody to brutalize, guilt free.
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Why?
He freaked out when Elektra slices the young Ninja's throat in his apartment
He clear wasn't buying the whole resurrection thing at that point.
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Why?
He freaked out when Elektra slices the young Ninja's throat in his apartment
He clear wasn't buying the whole resurrection thing at that point.
Hmm
Just because a bad guy can keep coming back from the dead, it is okay to murderlize them? I don't think that's the justification. He seems okay with killing Nobu, but he doesn't just go ham and start kicking people off buildings once he knows they have resurrection magics. He also seems to disagree with Punisher morally, as evidenced by his fight with Karen. Plus, his version of killing is "toss bad guys off buildings" not "stab, decapitate, and dismember" like Stick/Elektra.
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Why?
He freaked out when Elektra slices the young Ninja's throat in his apartment
He clear wasn't buying the whole resurrection thing at that point.
Hmm
Just because a bad guy can keep coming back from the dead, it is okay to murderlize them? I don't think that's the justification. He seems okay with killing Nobu, but he doesn't just go ham and start kicking people off buildings once he knows they have resurrection magics. He also seems to disagree with Punisher morally, as evidenced by his fight with Karen. Plus, his version of killing is "toss bad guys off buildings" not "stab, decapitate, and dismember" like Stick/Elektra.
batman kills Solomon Grundy because he will come back to life, so he wouldn't be the only hero to make the exception
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Why?
He freaked out when Elektra slices the young Ninja's throat in his apartment
He clear wasn't buying the whole resurrection thing at that point.
Hmm
Just because a bad guy can keep coming back from the dead, it is okay to murderlize them? I don't think that's the justification. He seems okay with killing Nobu, but he doesn't just go ham and start kicking people off buildings once he knows they have resurrection magics. He also seems to disagree with Punisher morally, as evidenced by his fight with Karen. Plus, his version of killing is "toss bad guys off buildings" not "stab, decapitate, and dismember" like Stick/Elektra.
batman kills Solomon Grundy because he will come back to life, so he wouldn't be the only hero to make the exception
Batman and Superman both operate on the "Killing is okay if it is robots or undead" rules.
One thing I found interesting (whole season spoilers)
At first, when Elektra or Punisher kills people in front of DD, he stops them or freaks out when it happens (which lead to Elektra getting slashed early on). Later, Elektra is straight stabbing dudes in the eye and Punisher is sniping dudes in the face and DD doesn't even react. I suppose he does say "Maybe we do things your way, just this one time" to Punisher, and I assume he did mean to kill Nobu when he tosses him off the roof. So, where does that leave DD on the whole, no-kill rule. Technically he's broken the rule twice now on the same dude (and then Stick killed that guy a third time).
Ninjas don't count.
Why?
He freaked out when Elektra slices the young Ninja's throat in his apartment
He clear wasn't buying the whole resurrection thing at that point.
Hmm
Just because a bad guy can keep coming back from the dead, it is okay to murderlize them? I don't think that's the justification. He seems okay with killing Nobu, but he doesn't just go ham and start kicking people off buildings once he knows they have resurrection magics. He also seems to disagree with Punisher morally, as evidenced by his fight with Karen. Plus, his version of killing is "toss bad guys off buildings" not "stab, decapitate, and dismember" like Stick/Elektra.
batman kills Solomon Grundy because he will come back to life, so he wouldn't be the only hero to make the exception
I guess. I just don't think breaking that rule because they can resurrect is a good reason, especially because we see DD doesn't even really kill him...again! Stick does it, and he makes sure he can't come back via gruesome dismemberment. Because they can resurrect, killing them is meaningless in the first place, because they can just keep coming back.
I suppose the way I look at it is, the whole Rooftop scene with Punisher and Grotto was meant to highlight how opposed DD is to murdering anyone. He goes out of his way to make sure nobody dies, even endangering his friends repeatedly by doing so. On top of all this, we don't have any evidence they can actually resurrect people except for Nobu himself. It's implied with the other ninja but never really explained. I am just saying, he caved pretty quickly on the whole "no one dies" rule.
Comics do this all the time, it is always a big deal when Batman actually kills a guy but he's done it multiple times throughout his history. They play with the One Rule because you know when they do break it, it is for a really good reason (or it's old school Batman who just straight up murdered all the time). So when DD finally says "Fuck it, these Ninjas gotta die" it should have been a huuuge moment.
Meh.
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MichaelLCIn what furnace was thy brain?ChicagoRegistered Userregular
Hey, heads up spoilers are broken!
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Watched the first two episodes, probably going to finish it up over the weekend.
It's gooooood. Those Netflix guys write a good story.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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For me at least, what makes the comic resonate more is
you're so used to there being an unshown third way, it's common writing to the point where it is the standard, not the exception.
Matt deciding, and Punisher knowing he would pull the trigger on him, that just works so well. Because it also showed the same humanity to Frank with his speech at the end.
I bet that the comic version doesn't end with
That has to be coming.
Season 4, maybe. After the Defenders stuff.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
John Bernthal killed it as Frank
So far this season has been all about contrasting Daredevil with anti-heroes to show how he's different. I'm still waiting for an emotional hook to grab me (aside from the Punisher, they certainly sunk that hook effectively) and I'm hoping that they come up with something better than Matt + Karen or Matt + Elektra fighting random yakuza.
The season seems to be missing a villain so far.
Disagree. As Alan Sepinwall put it:
The show at its best is really good at approaching what could be a rather cliche cast and instead treating them with a lot of psychological complexity.
Which is why it's a real bummer to see so much of the season given over to Generic Ninjas. Fisk in s1 was very similar to Matt, both of them responding to strong feelings about traumatic childhoods in their beloved city. Ninjas in s2 just do their shit because of their Great Prophecied Weapon or some shit. But we can't tell you what it is yet!
And then they take Elektra, who had been perfectly interesting as a self-destructive thrill seeker, and no actually she's been part of The War the whole time! We only have a dim idea of what that war is and way less idea of why we should actually care, and all of that work that went into making her an interesting unique character is all gone to shit.
When the hand isn't around, I really like this season, even more than season 1. In many ways more than Jessica Jones even! When the Hand shows up all of those interesting emotional stakes go the fuck out the window and I'm bored.
Granted it's a Punisher comic so it will be to the benefit of Punisher, but it was done well. But agree to disagree.
I agree for the most part
Ep 12 spoilers
Yeah, that bit was weird.
Anyway, the ninjas being undetectable to Matt was another attempt at this, it just doesn't work as well. It's one of the rare instances in the show where actually seeing Matt's radar-vision might have been useful, because then we could have seen how the motionless ninja were blending in with the background, ala mud-covered Arnie seen through thermal vision in Predator.
Personally, I think they should have gone with a "less is more" angle with the ninjas. HaveThe Hand mainly keep operating through hired Yakuza thugs with guns and knives and only have ninjas show up in small numbers to provide a much more serious threat, as Nobu did in season one. Matt would fare better than he did last season because of the armored suit and having backup, but the ninjas would still be a lot more dangerous than the usual thugs he faces.
That said, one of my favorite parts with The Hand this season was the big car chase with Stick. I loved the idea that in MCU New York if you go into the wrong place and do the wrong thing, suddenly the night is alive with ninjas. The idea that they had rattled the hornet's nest and barely made it out with their lives was very effective. Would have been improved if they had a few of the ninjas that got hit by the car or shot with arrows just getting back up and snapping their broken limbs back into place or yanking the arrows out, though.
Then you had DD's senses being subverted with the Hand, which was nice! But then to solve that all you have to hear is juuuusst breathe Faith Hill and that solves everything? JV bro.
But the worst part was the Blacksmith reveal. Holy shit, everything's going along fine and being a bit new with storytelling but they had to, almost out of some ridiculous Jeph Loeb mystery shitty revelation make it the marine commander because fuck you, that's why. No seriously for super reals, this had to be a Loeb mandated thing, it's just as crap as the reveal in his Hush story or any of his mystery stories. I mean shit, you couldn't make the military guys just be normal, decent military guys? Fucking lazy as fuck and I apologize for writing fuck so much, dammit.
And then they double down with dumb reveals with Elektra being the Black Sky and also being adopted, so even that one small part of her normal life (ignoring Elektra: Assassin) isn't even real, this is trying to be DC grim, yo. Hell, even the 90's Marvel Edge Daredevil comics are watching this TV show going "trying too hard, brah, and we had Matt fake his death again and have split personality."
The only saving grace was Frank finding that armory.
He killed a lot of things as Frank.
you ask "why should I care about the war?"
and you claim that Elektra is an "interesting unique character"
and I'm scratching my head, because haven't you answered your own question? You obviously felt the character resonated before you learned of her connection to the Chaste. I would think caring about the character would transfer, at least in part, to caring about the road she's traveled.
The thought "I am not interested in the Chaste" shouldn't lead to "Elektra's part of the Chaste? I must find her less interesting now"
I guess if you don't know anything about the comic book character I can see how you'd feel that way.
Elektra: K.
Matt: Now that we're done fighting, lets sit around mostly naked and caress each other's scars.
The whole episode felt rudderless and there just because it needs to be a 13 episode season. Don't care that Elektra got a costume upgrade (she looked like even more of a tool in her trenchcoat), did like that DD now has his billy club to go wheeeeeee with even if he only did it once with no Quesada infinite string, Karen being Lois Lane is a nice choice but at the same time, Simpsons did it I mean Lois did it, and we got very little Frank. I did like seeing Turk show up, although that whole hostage thing seemed just pointless.
Guys, guys, I guess his name is now Noboo-boo, huh? Huh? Alright beer me five!
Plus the end, yuck, Elektra can't just leave us all alone and go to that mountaintop to sit for 20 years.
Overall it was a very good season, better than the first and Jessica Jones. Some of the biggest flaws now are consistent Netflix problems ie small budget, cheap CGI and repetitive locations (a warehouse is a warehouse is a warehouse), but what saved it was the compartmentalized storytelling, especially in the beginning. Whole season spoilers
It just really felt like the show ran out of steam following episode 11. Everything was ramping up fine, but it seemed like the show got scared Frank was just stealing too many scenes so just put him in cool guy time out pretty hard at the end, meaning we're saddled with boring ninjas and Elektra. And shitty reveals with storylines.
Elektra never won me over. I admit I never liked her in the comics, but this season made me like Karen and Foggy, two characters I didn't care for last season because their abloo abloo was over 9000. This year they grew up, got smart and flew out of the nest on their own. It was nice, and I hope Carrie Ann Moss is the replacement Rosalynd Sharpe in terms of Foggy's character as a lawyer.
But Elektra just got worse and worse. Making her a honey trap was silly, making her an adopted kid putting on a show was even more silly, and the entire femme fatale thing never landed. By the time we got to the stairwell talk about leaving it all behind, I just didn't care about them. Rosario Dawson's brief relationship felt more real, and at least she was a better written character. And I don't know how much of this was Yung's fault or the show's because I can't remember jack squat about her from GI Joe. Her shift from carefree psycho to troubled childhood chosen one felt like two young adult fiction writers got together and just wrote different chapters of a Katniss knockoff. It will really be a shame if she comes back, or even gets prominence over Punisher. No Elektra, bring in Mr. Fear and copy the Joe Kelly story where Karen is set up for murder, that can be a nice blend of court room and action.
I do hope they resolve the Karen/DD hanging reveal rather quickly next season and change it up from Foggy discovery. Have her be totally ok with it, all the bruises and broken glasses make sense now, go do stuff.
Bernthal was perfect throughout (I sincerely want him to be nominated for best supporting actor), as was D'onfrio, if they can be in a Punisher spinoff it will be so much goodness. I just need six episodes and I'll be happy, push it towards the budget being bigger per episode. Each episode is him killing a different mob family until he fights Tombstone or Jigsaw or something, knowing he's doing good but is also making it easier for Fisk.
More than anything I just hope they focus more on 4 episode arcs, that worked so well for the first 9 episodes. First four make Punisher complete in a way few TV shows can do, next two are sort of calm down, keep Frank's story going, until we get to episode 9 where he's finally back out there saving the day.
But that's enough rambling for the day.
All his dialogue in the forest scene was so shoehorned in. It was such an obvious set up for a Punisher show. It was ridiculous how out of nowhere, the colonel introduces a whole new mystery by talking about how it wasn't just a drug deal gone bad, how Frank could have been rich too, that it had something to do with what happened in Kandahar, and how "they" will never forgive Frank.
Yeah, the steam really runs out right around then.
Another thing that irked me with that story line
I'm not convinced the murderous aspect comes from that place directly, though I suppose it could. Indirectly, having power tends to result in wanting to use that power. It didn't help that the Chaste were perfectly ok with training her to kill, and Stick didn't do much more than slap her on the wrist for killing that kid.
I mean, people are saying here that the Black Sky is akin to a demon possession thing from the comics, which makes me want to draw a parallel between Elektra and Faith. Being a Slayer doesn't make one inherently murderous, but those powers in someone damaged resulted in people dead, dying, and injured.
This makes sense
Karen likely fucked up his well-staged ambush, so he had to improvise. He planted the tape so that she would be ready when he moved, then struck when he had the chance.
and i am still upset about minigun
Why?
That's kind of why Hand Ninjas in the comics. So Matt and Co have somebody to brutalize, guilt free.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Hmm
I suppose the way I look at it is, the whole Rooftop scene with Punisher and Grotto was meant to highlight how opposed DD is to murdering anyone. He goes out of his way to make sure nobody dies, even endangering his friends repeatedly by doing so. On top of all this, we don't have any evidence they can actually resurrect people except for Nobu himself. It's implied with the other ninja but never really explained. I am just saying, he caved pretty quickly on the whole "no one dies" rule.
Comics do this all the time, it is always a big deal when Batman actually kills a guy but he's done it multiple times throughout his history. They play with the One Rule because you know when they do break it, it is for a really good reason (or it's old school Batman who just straight up murdered all the time). So when DD finally says "Fuck it, these Ninjas gotta die" it should have been a huuuge moment.
Meh.
It's gooooood. Those Netflix guys write a good story.
I don't have time to watch the rest of the season tonight so I guess I'll have to pace myself
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget