FYI folks Facebooks Safety Check feature is working for this thing. If you know anyone who might be in the area they should check in to let people know they're safe
I didn't know that was a thing. I'm glad it is a thing.
I disagree. The attacks would not happen if horrible mass murders didn't decide to devout time into planning to kill many people in cold blood. I don't think that it is ok to leave that out. Abstracting it into a political tactic like that makes it seem like they are more than mass murders that murdered lots of people in cold blood.
Well, it's nice that you disagree. You don't have any expertise in the matter, do you?
I'm not sure what there is to gain by just deciding to reduce our understanding to 'horrible mass murderers do murder and it is bad'.
EDIT: Like, yes, it is quite tautologically true that if people did not decide to conduct murders, then nobody would be murdered. I'm not sure how this brilliant insight is supposed to help us understand or deal with the world we live in, though.
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
That is way too much information for me to parse right now. How about you make your point yourself?
Alright, sorry; I just don't want to put words in Mr. Atran's mouth.
Most of the motivation is sparked by scapegoating, which can originate in secular circles as easily as religious circles. The objective of the attacks is as much about the galvanization as it is because of it; they aim to cement the idea that their culture (or what they see as their culture) can never be compatible with our own. They want us to believe that Islam is totally a dangerous religion and to force mutual alienation while at the same time convincing more Muslims that the west is always looking for an excuse to ostracize & kill them.
And we play along with this nonsense.
Now, refusing to play along would probably not end the violence on it's own, but it surely would be something of a step forward. Recruitment efforts undeniably operate off of the back of tragedy & poverty visited upon people in the Persian Gulf who happen to get caught in the crossfire when the west decides it needs to go try & play wartime superhero (and again, that is not a justification of these recruitment efforts - it is understanding why they happen and why they are successful).
I disagree. The attacks would not happen if horrible mass murders didn't decide to devout time into planning to kill many people in cold blood. I don't think that it is ok to leave that out. Abstracting it into a political tactic like that makes it seem like they are more than mass murders that murdered lots of people in cold blood.
They are, though. The reason there is no rash of attacks by people who buy winter jackets for poor children is because the ideology that prompts one to clothe the poor is not a violent one by nature. OTOH, certain ideologies not only condone, but exalt violence. We should never, ever offer even the least bit of excuse to mass murderers, but OTOH, recognizing the deliberate attempts to create mass murderers is intrinsic in stopping future attacks.
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I was not aware Rob Lowe was a goober. That's a bummer.
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least compelling thing I can think of is to point at people reacting in whatever shitty way they're reacting
what are we trying to feel superior about? there's a tragedy still occurring.
Forget the word monster. Call them terrible people. I don't care about that part. My point is just that when you start talking about what action or activity by the French government or the western world was a cause of the attack or a motivation for it, you create a narrative where there is a reasonable relationship between the two. They people are not killing innocents because of a thing that someone else did, because a reasonable person never reacts like that. These people are killing because they are terrible people, and they don't deserve the air of legitimacy that ascribing a motive other than "to kill people" may imply. These are mass murderers, no freedom fighters or members of a movement. They are just mass murderers. They don't deserve to be viewed as anything more than that.
Straight up nope.
A rational actor is entirely capable of committing violence, even against someone who is unarmed and otherwise not a combatant. It just so happens when the only perceived outlet is violence, the rational actor picks that outlet. You're committing a fundamental attribution error here.
I really wish I could just process all this, but I can't
A group of people was able to slaughter dozens, even over a hundred in the middle of Paris.
And people are going to debate their motivations as if it was as simple as x -> y (I'm not talking specifically about here - you guys generally are the most informed and fair when it comes to such situations)
The most realistic scenario is that people will simplify things like that. IF it was extremists of any religious identity, religious freedoms for minorities will probably be severely damaged- whether through direct policy or culture reactions.
Any response, domestically and internationally, will without a doubt punish and kill more innocents than actual violent extremists.
And the millions of refugees facing winter, trying to enter Europe? I don't even want to think of the price they will pay - and that for simply existing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Like I said, the motivations of the people that did this are varied, and important, but ultimately our society has not proven itself capable of dissecting such nuances so as to form proper responses that actually save lives.
The guys who did this though? They knew exactly what would happen. They knew exactly what the western response would be.
I pray that no more people die, that the response is rational and fair, and that the candidates and voters facing 2016 - or any citizens of any nation - don't fall into the trap the perpetrators of this crime have set.
I'm sorry for talking about what could happen after these events as they still unfold - but I needed to release all this stuff, and I think its important that we think of long term consequences.
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
This is ridiculous. People can believe things and take actions based on those beliefs. We shouldn't refuse to believe that people can be motivated by motivations just because we don't like what conclusions that might lead to.
Its amazing how many different ideologies lead people to justify violence against innocents. Its not only contained to the middle east either. IRA, UVF, Weathermen, KKK and the Bader/Meinhoff. Anders Behring Breivik and the Unabomber.
Look and ye shall find them anywhere you care to look. Sure they believe, they would probably claim to be the only true believers of their cause, but...
Its always the same type of people: Marginalized groups made up of an assorted mishmash of losers wanting something to believe in and idealists so idealistic that they have lost contact with the real world, with the odd outright psychopath thrown in.
The Cause(with a big C) changes, the people stay the same.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Does he mean the borders should have been closed an hour ago or years ago?
He's referring to France's response to the refugee crisis. Because why have the people killed, maimed and scarred from today's attacks be the only lives ruined? Why not fuck up the lives of desperate people fleeing war even more than they already have been?
I'm just staying off social media for a couple of days. Between misinformation and people using the tragedy to bolster whatever their current pet political issues are, it's easier to just stay here with mostly rational and informative people.
my understanding is acquiring the materials is the hard part (and is what law enforcement can actually track and catch)
There's also a slightly higher level of knowledge you need to use an explosive or incendiary device effectively, without killing yourself, than a firearm or a knife.
You can make ANFO (if you can get a hold of the ammonium nitrate fertilizer, which wouldn't be too hard if you had access to a local port with a lot of traffic) or TATP without being hindered too much. But as was said before, there is a level of knowledge needed to use even HME effectively.
Someone said trump was making progun shitposts in regards to the current situation with absolutely no awareness of the Parisian situation, anyone got proof I cant find any.
Terrorism is such a horrible mentality. Hurting everyone so they fear you. And it's certainly going to work exactly as I'm sure they're hoping - increasing mistrust and violence.
It's not necessarily just about fear.
There are other motivations as well, such as Identity Assertion or the more nihilistic ushering in of a "new order".
There's also the chance that the purpose for this isn't attrition, but provocation. So any indiscriminate response towards, for example, the Syrian refugee population could be a desired outcome for the actors.
Well, let's not mince words. Islamist terrorists often have outright genocidal rhetoric and intentions. ISIS has proved that very well by murdering almost every male and turning every woman in Yazidi villages into a rape slave.
Some people in chat alluded to "Well, maybe this is due to France's not perfect treatment of minorities," but ignores the fact that plenty of these groups have absolute submission and/or genocide as explicit goals.
Nazis weren't just working through some issues, they wanted to eliminate European Jewry. They are a reasonable analogy in some respects.
Edit: It isn't proved it was Islamists, but, you know, let's be real here. The above still applies in a broader context anyhow.
I agree.
That's part of the more nihilistic "new order" motivation. Which explains why attacks become more and more brutal. It's a much different situation than the New-Left groups taking hostages seeking political demands.
The relatively recent attitudes of some Americans against France are both stupid and morally wrong. France is part of the reason why America exists at all, and we've been largely steadfast allies. They are neither perfect, nor slavish in their devotion, but neither is an appropriate thing to require from an ally.
France shutting its borders already will have minor consequences tonight. If it last for some time it can have larger ones.
Winter is fast approaching and we have a lot of possibly desperate people going to be stuck in the middle of a freaked Europe and a broken ME.
Top it off that France already doesn't have the best history towards its minority pops.
And then to top it off this a major loss of life in the middle of Paris and all my thoughts go to the French people and those who are injured or loss loved ones today.
Reading some reports on the Bataclan attack are saying that the 100 hostages were executed one by one before grenade explosions.
Eyewitnesses said the gunmen entered the venue and opened fire into the crowd. After the initial volley, they started walking the floor and executing the wounded.
Nothing about explosions until the assault team breached.
Someone said trump was making progun shitposts in regards to the current situation with absolutely no awareness of the Parisian situation, anyone got proof I cant find any.
Seems he deleted it. Too bad the internet is full of bastards with a print screen button.
edit: duh, it's an old tweet, date is right there on the image. My bad. "Progun shitpost" statement still accurate.
Reading some reports on the Bataclan attack are saying that the 100 hostages were executed one by one before grenade explosions.
The witness accounts are sheer nightmare fuel. There was one girl saying "He shot us one by one. We were running everywhere. Then he stopped shooting. I thought maybe he had finished, but he was reloading. He reloaded and shot us again. He shot us one at a time. He never said a word."
From what she and a few others were saying it seemed like one person had guns and another had grenades? I mean I'm guessing the witnesses are all sorts of messed up.
Someone said trump was making progun shitposts in regards to the current situation with absolutely no awareness of the Parisian situation, anyone got proof I cant find any.
Seems he deleted it. Too bad the internet is full of bastards with a print screen button.
edit: duh, it's an old tweet, date is right there on the image. My bad.
He mixed up the words "irrelevant" and "interesting". It's forgivable, he is pretty dense.
Reading some reports on the Bataclan attack are saying that the 100 hostages were executed one by one before grenade explosions.
Eyewitnesses said the gunmen entered the venue and opened fire into the crowd. After the initial volley, they started walking the floor and executing the wounded.
Nothing about explosions until the assault team breached.
It sounds like there was nothing the Police could have done, they went in with the intention of executing as many people as possible. Hollande is visiting the scene personally.
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I didn't know that was a thing. I'm glad it is a thing.
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Well, it's nice that you disagree. You don't have any expertise in the matter, do you?
I'm not sure what there is to gain by just deciding to reduce our understanding to 'horrible mass murderers do murder and it is bad'.
EDIT: Like, yes, it is quite tautologically true that if people did not decide to conduct murders, then nobody would be murdered. I'm not sure how this brilliant insight is supposed to help us understand or deal with the world we live in, though.
They are, though. The reason there is no rash of attacks by people who buy winter jackets for poor children is because the ideology that prompts one to clothe the poor is not a violent one by nature. OTOH, certain ideologies not only condone, but exalt violence. We should never, ever offer even the least bit of excuse to mass murderers, but OTOH, recognizing the deliberate attempts to create mass murderers is intrinsic in stopping future attacks.
what are we trying to feel superior about? there's a tragedy still occurring.
Straight up nope.
A rational actor is entirely capable of committing violence, even against someone who is unarmed and otherwise not a combatant. It just so happens when the only perceived outlet is violence, the rational actor picks that outlet. You're committing a fundamental attribution error here.
I mean, he always submits himself as a lead actor regardless how small a role he has. He's kind of a douche.
A group of people was able to slaughter dozens, even over a hundred in the middle of Paris.
And people are going to debate their motivations as if it was as simple as x -> y (I'm not talking specifically about here - you guys generally are the most informed and fair when it comes to such situations)
The most realistic scenario is that people will simplify things like that. IF it was extremists of any religious identity, religious freedoms for minorities will probably be severely damaged- whether through direct policy or culture reactions.
Any response, domestically and internationally, will without a doubt punish and kill more innocents than actual violent extremists.
And the millions of refugees facing winter, trying to enter Europe? I don't even want to think of the price they will pay - and that for simply existing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Like I said, the motivations of the people that did this are varied, and important, but ultimately our society has not proven itself capable of dissecting such nuances so as to form proper responses that actually save lives.
The guys who did this though? They knew exactly what would happen. They knew exactly what the western response would be.
I pray that no more people die, that the response is rational and fair, and that the candidates and voters facing 2016 - or any citizens of any nation - don't fall into the trap the perpetrators of this crime have set.
I'm sorry for talking about what could happen after these events as they still unfold - but I needed to release all this stuff, and I think its important that we think of long term consequences.
PSN: ShinyRedKnight Xbox Live: ShinyRedKnight
Its amazing how many different ideologies lead people to justify violence against innocents. Its not only contained to the middle east either. IRA, UVF, Weathermen, KKK and the Bader/Meinhoff. Anders Behring Breivik and the Unabomber.
Look and ye shall find them anywhere you care to look. Sure they believe, they would probably claim to be the only true believers of their cause, but...
Its always the same type of people: Marginalized groups made up of an assorted mishmash of losers wanting something to believe in and idealists so idealistic that they have lost contact with the real world, with the odd outright psychopath thrown in.
The Cause(with a big C) changes, the people stay the same.
He's referring to France's response to the refugee crisis. Because why have the people killed, maimed and scarred from today's attacks be the only lives ruined? Why not fuck up the lives of desperate people fleeing war even more than they already have been?
There's also a slightly higher level of knowledge you need to use an explosive or incendiary device effectively, without killing yourself, than a firearm or a knife.
You can make ANFO (if you can get a hold of the ammonium nitrate fertilizer, which wouldn't be too hard if you had access to a local port with a lot of traffic) or TATP without being hindered too much. But as was said before, there is a level of knowledge needed to use even HME effectively.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Rumors confirmed to be FALSE:
Belgian borders closed
Calais camp on fire
Eiffel tower switching its lights off - they go off every night
Made me mad. Wait a fucking day or so before going demagaga.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
I agree.
That's part of the more nihilistic "new order" motivation. Which explains why attacks become more and more brutal. It's a much different situation than the New-Left groups taking hostages seeking political demands.
:rotate:
The relatively recent attitudes of some Americans against France are both stupid and morally wrong. France is part of the reason why America exists at all, and we've been largely steadfast allies. They are neither perfect, nor slavish in their devotion, but neither is an appropriate thing to require from an ally.
(The Guardian)
Steam | XBL
France shutting its borders already will have minor consequences tonight. If it last for some time it can have larger ones.
Winter is fast approaching and we have a lot of possibly desperate people going to be stuck in the middle of a freaked Europe and a broken ME.
Top it off that France already doesn't have the best history towards its minority pops.
And then to top it off this a major loss of life in the middle of Paris and all my thoughts go to the French people and those who are injured or loss loved ones today.
Eyewitnesses said the gunmen entered the venue and opened fire into the crowd. After the initial volley, they started walking the floor and executing the wounded.
Nothing about explosions until the assault team breached.
Seems he deleted it. Too bad the internet is full of bastards with a print screen button.
edit: duh, it's an old tweet, date is right there on the image. My bad. "Progun shitpost" statement still accurate.
Rough translation: "I repeat, part of Calais camp is on fire right now, I'm on site. My photos from half hour ago"
The witness accounts are sheer nightmare fuel. There was one girl saying "He shot us one by one. We were running everywhere. Then he stopped shooting. I thought maybe he had finished, but he was reloading. He reloaded and shot us again. He shot us one at a time. He never said a word."
From what she and a few others were saying it seemed like one person had guns and another had grenades? I mean I'm guessing the witnesses are all sorts of messed up.
He mixed up the words "irrelevant" and "interesting". It's forgivable, he is pretty dense.
It sounds like there was nothing the Police could have done, they went in with the intention of executing as many people as possible. Hollande is visiting the scene personally.