This is happening because a group of inhuman monsters have devoted time and resources into producing and executing a plan to kill innocent people. It doesn't matter what they claim as motivation. That is it, right there, and treating them like they had any other motivation risks legitimizing, excusing, or otherwise shifting the blame here. A group of terrible people are killing innocent people because they devoted a great deal of effort to being monstrous, and monsters are all that they should be thought of or remembered as.
no.
full stop.
the assholes doing this? they're just as human as you or i.
don't fall into the fucking trap.
edit
because if you do these fuckers win
I think "inhuman" in this context means having let go of a shared idea of humanity. Of course they are humans.
This is happening because a group of inhuman monsters have devoted time and resources into producing and executing a plan to kill innocent people. It doesn't matter what they claim as motivation. That is it, right there, and treating them like they had any other motivation risks legitimizing, excusing, or otherwise shifting the blame here. A group of terrible people are killing innocent people because they devoted a great deal of effort to being monstrous, and monsters are all that they should be thought of or remembered as.
This is absolutely the wrong attitude to have, for so many reasons. First off, to say that this is the action of "inhuman monsters" is to deny the capability for evil that humans possess. Second, if you actually want to combat this sort of atrocity, you need to understand why it happened. Think of the fire triangle - this sort of thing doesn't happen in a vacuum, and the only way to stop it is to break the system that engenders it.
The problem here is determining the system that engenders it. You could be calling for more tolerance or more intolerance depending on the answer to that question.
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
If that is the case, the ramifications are utterly chilling.
this whole seems way too planned out to be such a quick reaction, doesn't it?
Hence the chilling ramifications part. If it is such a reaction, that draws one of two conclusions, neither good:
1. An attack has been in the works, but had its timetable pushed forward in response, or tied to the attack as justification.
That, by the way, is the better of the two. Because the other is
2. Recruiting by these groups in Europe is on a scale and sophistication above what we have seen before, if a response of this magnitude can be done on that timeframe.
They would need to have dudes on standby and ready to mobilize. The real crazy part is they would neef to have guns and explosives ready to go.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Uh... I think anyone who wants to sleep tonight should skip the witness accounts coming out of the Bataclan. My French is pretty terrible and the little I understood is beyond horrific.
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
Unabomber, Weathermen (killed themselves, but still), one planned one that failed at an MLK Day March in I think Spokane, a whole bunch of abortion clinics, Atlanta Olympics...
EDIT: Birmingham church bombing.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Forget the word monster. Call them terrible people. I don't care about that part. My point is just that when you start talking about what action or activity by the French government or the western world was a cause of the attack or a motivation for it, you create a narrative where there is a reasonable relationship between the two. They people are not killing innocents because of a thing that someone else did, because a reasonable person never reacts like that. These people are killing because they are terrible people, and they don't deserve the air of legitimacy that ascribing a motive other than "to kill people" may imply. These are mass murderers, no freedom fighters or members of a movement. They are just mass murderers. They don't deserve to be viewed as anything more than that.
If that is the case, the ramifications are utterly chilling.
this whole seems way too planned out to be such a quick reaction, doesn't it?
Hence the chilling ramifications part. If it is such a reaction, that draws one of two conclusions, neither good:
1. An attack has been in the works, but had its timetable pushed forward in response, or tied to the attack as justification.
That, by the way, is the better of the two. Because the other is
2. Recruiting by these groups in Europe is on a scale and sophistication above what we have seen before, if a response of this magnitude can be done on that timeframe.
They would need to have dudes on standby and ready to mobilize. The real crazy part is they would neef to have guns and explosives ready to go.
This is just random correlation. The US and its allies have been attacking ISIS for years, the excuse for the attack would have just been whichever attack occurred most recently with high levels of press. If not for Johadi John they would have said it was in response to our support for Kurdish attacks on ISIS territory or whatever. Their level of organization and penetration is not that extensive.
What this shows is that you can destroy all hope of peaceful coexistance with the actions of a small number of people. The refugee crisis is just going to get worse now. I can see shootings at the border as people try to cross, and refugee boats being sunk.
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
This is ridiculous. People can believe things and take actions based on those beliefs. We shouldn't refuse to believe that people can be motivated by motivations just because we don't like what conclusions that might lead to.
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
Making one? Not hard at all.
Not blowing yourself up in the process? There's the tricky part.
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
surprisingly easy
which tells you how many people actually want to engage in such nonsense
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
Unabomber, Weathermen (killed themselves, but still), one planned one that failed at an MLK Day March in I think Spokane, a whole bunch of abortion clinics, Atlanta Olympics...
You are right. It is pretty easy to forget these things.
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
It's pretty hard to do and not blow yourself up. It's also even harder to do in a way that makes it usable or go off when you want. Those kids at Columbine actually made a bomb big enough to blow up their entire school canteen. Their initial plan was to pick off the survivors as they ran outside. The bomb never went off, even when they shot at it later.
Also, there's a good deal of speculation that, given the location of the explosions, the bombs at the Stade de France were supposed to go off after the match while people were leaving, not during it. Bombs are much harder to aim than guns, unless you have a handy plane to drop them from or something.
The BBC are keeping calm and putting up a map of the locations of the attacks:
If this was an attack on the United States, and ISIS claimed responsibility, there's almost no doubt in my mind that we'd have boots on the ground in within a month. Just like Afghanistan after 9/11.
But what about France? How will France respond?
Melkster on
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Forget the word monster. Call them terrible people. I don't care about that part. My point is just that when you start talking about what action or activity by the French government or the western world was a cause of the attack or a motivation for it, you create a narrative where there is a reasonable relationship between the two. They people are not killing innocents because of a thing that someone else did, because a reasonable person never reacts like that. These people are killing because they are terrible people, and they don't deserve the air of legitimacy that ascribing a motive other than "to kill people" may imply. These are mass murderers, no freedom fighters or members of a movement. They are just mass murderers. They don't deserve to be viewed as anything more than that.
I'm just left with the feeling that we are all monsters. This spiral of uncaring death and destruction we find ourselves in would suggest nothing less. What can we do? Deport millions of people? Give billions of dollars to try and improve the lives of people who need our help, but are willing to destroy democracy and kill others to get it? Just put a dictator in charge and let them decide for us?
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
If this kind of bullshit keeps up, expect to see Paris security concerns reach a point that restaurant frisking for weapons and bombs like they do in Jerusalem becomes the norm.
I don't care so much about the motives of the people who did this, though I can certainly guess why, and a lot of those reasons are already listed once again here by others, but I do worry about the result and how much events like this will be exploited to constrain rights and freedoms in the name of security.
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
I wonder how hard it is to make a bomb. In the USA bomb attacks seem exceedingly rare. Boston Marathon, McVeigh and World Trade Center are the only ones I can think of.
Unabomber, Weathermen (killed themselves, but still), one planned one that failed at an MLK Day March in I think Spokane, a whole bunch of abortion clinics, Atlanta Olympics...
EDIT: Birmingham church bombing.
The 1993 WTC bombing. The jackass in NYC who set off a bomb in tribute to Fight Club, the recruiting office bomb in NYC, the bombings of a gay club in Atlanta in the 90's. It depends on how far you want to go back. The 70's have a metric fuckton of bombs.
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
And just for the record, its not religion, 40 years ago these same people would have been killing in the name of Communism. Before that Pan-Arab Nationalism. Before that anti-colonialism. Before that Anti-Ottoman.
Anarchism, Comunism, National-socialism/Facism, Muslim, Protestant, Catholic, and the ever favorite my "ethnic origin is better then your ethnic origin".
There is always a cause and there is always some asshole that wants to write themselves into the History books using the blood of innocents as ink.
Islam is the excuse, murder is the reason.
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
If this was an attack on the United States, and ISIS claimed responsibility, there's almost no doubt in my mind that we'd have boots on the ground in within a month. Just like Afghanistan after 9/11.
But what about France? How will France respond?
Under Sarkozy, tomorrow. Depends how French public opinion goes. I bet US public opinion almost forces Obama's hand though. I doubt any of the contenders, even Sanders, will be able to object to force, but maybe I'm wrong.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Forget the word monster. Call them terrible people. I don't care about that part. My point is just that when you start talking about what action or activity by the French government or the western world was a cause of the attack or a motivation for it, you create a narrative where there is a reasonable relationship between the two. They people are not killing innocents because of a thing that someone else did, because a reasonable person never reacts like that. These people are killing because they are terrible people, and they don't deserve the air of legitimacy that ascribing a motive other than "to kill people" may imply. These are mass murderers, no freedom fighters or members of a movement. They are just mass murderers. They don't deserve to be viewed as anything more than that.
While it's not exactly reasonable, it is universal. Like the anti-Islam hysteria that caught on after 9/11, with talk show hosts etc advocating for atrocities to be committed against them. It's unreasonable, but it is universal.
my understanding is acquiring the materials is the hard part (and is what law enforcement can actually track and catch)
You can make them yourself. Making explosives is easy enough if the cultural and/or institutional knowledge exists. In America, every murdering piece of shit can't be bothered and just shoots people (for the most part), but in areas where it is more common, like Afghanistan, any ignorant farmer can help make IEDs and they only blow themselves up some of the time.
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
edited November 2015
One of the refugee camps in Calais, France is apparently on fire now. Unconfirmed, but yeah.
Terrorism is such a horrible mentality. Hurting everyone so they fear you. And it's certainly going to work exactly as I'm sure they're hoping - increasing mistrust and violence.
It's not necessarily just about fear.
There are other motivations as well, such as Identity Assertion or the more nihilistic ushering in of a "new order".
There's also the chance that the purpose for this isn't attrition, but provocation. So any indiscriminate response towards, for example, the Syrian refugee population could be a desired outcome for the actors.
If this was an attack on the United States, and ISIS claimed responsibility, there's almost no doubt in my mind that we'd have boots on the ground in within a month. Just like Afghanistan after 9/11.
But what about France? How will France respond?
Under Sarkozy, tomorrow. Depends how French public opinion goes. I bet US public opinion almost forces Obama's hand though. I doubt any of the contenders, even Sanders, will be able to object to force, but maybe I'm wrong.
I mean, yeah, France is our ally. If ISIS claimed responsibility, wouldn't that trigger Artice 5 of NATO?
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Posts
I think "inhuman" in this context means having let go of a shared idea of humanity. Of course they are humans.
The problem here is determining the system that engenders it. You could be calling for more tolerance or more intolerance depending on the answer to that question.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
No, I think these people really believe they are doing this in the name of their god, for the greater good. So I guess brainwashing is the reason, but they believe they are doing it for religious reasons.
That's some good news at least
They would need to have dudes on standby and ready to mobilize. The real crazy part is they would neef to have guns and explosives ready to go.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Well, before you get too attached to those beliefs, perhaps you should consider reading some of these articles.
Unabomber, Weathermen (killed themselves, but still), one planned one that failed at an MLK Day March in I think Spokane, a whole bunch of abortion clinics, Atlanta Olympics...
EDIT: Birmingham church bombing.
This is just random correlation. The US and its allies have been attacking ISIS for years, the excuse for the attack would have just been whichever attack occurred most recently with high levels of press. If not for Johadi John they would have said it was in response to our support for Kurdish attacks on ISIS territory or whatever. Their level of organization and penetration is not that extensive.
What this shows is that you can destroy all hope of peaceful coexistance with the actions of a small number of people. The refugee crisis is just going to get worse now. I can see shootings at the border as people try to cross, and refugee boats being sunk.
This is ridiculous. People can believe things and take actions based on those beliefs. We shouldn't refuse to believe that people can be motivated by motivations just because we don't like what conclusions that might lead to.
Making one? Not hard at all.
Not blowing yourself up in the process? There's the tricky part.
surprisingly easy
which tells you how many people actually want to engage in such nonsense
You are right. It is pretty easy to forget these things.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
There's also the issue of the West shoving the ME IN the international relations fuck barrel for a few decades, too.
It's pretty hard to do and not blow yourself up. It's also even harder to do in a way that makes it usable or go off when you want. Those kids at Columbine actually made a bomb big enough to blow up their entire school canteen. Their initial plan was to pick off the survivors as they ran outside. The bomb never went off, even when they shot at it later.
Also, there's a good deal of speculation that, given the location of the explosions, the bombs at the Stade de France were supposed to go off after the match while people were leaving, not during it. Bombs are much harder to aim than guns, unless you have a handy plane to drop them from or something.
The BBC are keeping calm and putting up a map of the locations of the attacks:
But what about France? How will France respond?
This is in really, really poor taste.
I'm just left with the feeling that we are all monsters. This spiral of uncaring death and destruction we find ourselves in would suggest nothing less. What can we do? Deport millions of people? Give billions of dollars to try and improve the lives of people who need our help, but are willing to destroy democracy and kill others to get it? Just put a dictator in charge and let them decide for us?
I don't care so much about the motives of the people who did this, though I can certainly guess why, and a lot of those reasons are already listed once again here by others, but I do worry about the result and how much events like this will be exploited to constrain rights and freedoms in the name of security.
That is way too much information for me to parse right now. How about you make your point yourself?
The 1993 WTC bombing. The jackass in NYC who set off a bomb in tribute to Fight Club, the recruiting office bomb in NYC, the bombings of a gay club in Atlanta in the 90's. It depends on how far you want to go back. The 70's have a metric fuckton of bombs.
Oh no...
Hasn't it been going on for longer than that. The British were promising leave Palestine and let [fill in blank] have it during WW1.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Under Sarkozy, tomorrow. Depends how French public opinion goes. I bet US public opinion almost forces Obama's hand though. I doubt any of the contenders, even Sanders, will be able to object to force, but maybe I'm wrong.
You can make them yourself. Making explosives is easy enough if the cultural and/or institutional knowledge exists. In America, every murdering piece of shit can't be bothered and just shoots people (for the most part), but in areas where it is more common, like Afghanistan, any ignorant farmer can help make IEDs and they only blow themselves up some of the time.
At least 100 dead in Bataclans. Heard on live stream.
The Sudanese camp. It doesn't seem to be related. It's looks like it's either a protest gone wrong or a really badly timed fire.
Waiting on confirmation; apparently the only major news agency reporting on it is RT, and only with twitter images.
It's not necessarily just about fear.
There are other motivations as well, such as Identity Assertion or the more nihilistic ushering in of a "new order".
There's also the chance that the purpose for this isn't attrition, but provocation. So any indiscriminate response towards, for example, the Syrian refugee population could be a desired outcome for the actors.
I mean, yeah, France is our ally. If ISIS claimed responsibility, wouldn't that trigger Artice 5 of NATO?