WELL YOU'RE WRONG MWA HA HA THERE ARE NO GOOD GAMES BURN IT DOWN
I think this is another form of critical laziness that a lot of people use as an excuse to not engage with the texts in front of them, with regards to games
Here's what games are good at right now w/r/t writing in my opinion:
Telling vast, sweeping epics
Pulp Action
We're still figuring the rest, but really the next step is building new elements into those existing strengths
You've seen it tried with mass effect, an attempt to add depth to pulp Sci Fi that succeeded in a broad sense and failed upon any kind of critical analysis (which doesn't make it bad, just incomplete)
Jrpgs have to do the same thing, which is why the shift to mobile is going to really be rough for the evolution of writing in the genre
Determining whether or not something is "good" isn't really the kind of critical engagement I'm talking about; qualitative scoring isn't really the goal here for me so much as engaging with the ideas being presented. The particular focuses with regards to what makes for good writing in games feels like a holdover from review culture that I think we could stand to move further away from, at least in some ways
As an example that's expected of me, I'm interested in EarthBound on a textual level because of the critical eye it turns toward its own genre and the expectations within it, and the experimental tone it used with so many elements of what would have otherwise been a very standard text. Whether or not somebody thinks it's good or not isn't really material in that respect; I just need to be able to engage with the text
Not to say that there isn't some quality thing there, because there is, and you would win the fight if you were arguing that the majority of game writing is bad, but given how experience-driven games are I'm not sure that the focus on writing as a necessary component of the medium's growth isn't a red herring? Certainly games can focus on writing, and I love it when they do, but I don't think it's necessary—even for JRPGs, where mechanics can make up just as much if not more of an experience
I don't mean to be proscriptivist in how anyone approaches games or their writing, and apologize preemptively if I'm coming across that way
i think there are a number of JRPGs that would have fairly strong writing with a better localization team than what most of them got, or localization teams who were given better tools
You know who's a good localization team?
8-4.
You know what they've localized?
Beloved Jurps Fire Emblem: Awakening, Nier, Drakengard 3, and Metal Gear Rising: REVENGEANCE.
Also some other stuff that was less good-written, but, you know. Only human.
Nier does a lot of things with narrative that only games can do.
Undertale's Pacifist route is the most disappointing ending I have experienced in video games. The writing in No Mercy works because you have to play the game a specific way to get that outcome, while Pacifist makes an assumption about your general game play habits in order to execute it's twist and consequently completely missed the mark for me. Also the morality of every opponent you encounter on that route is murky at best (save Papyrus of course, he is perfect).
Makes sense. The pacifist ending is all about your connection to the characters, so if you disliked almost all of them there's no way it would hit for you. For me at least it was a fantastic experience.
Games with good writing: Ghost Trick, 999, Virtue's Last Reward, Undertale, Paper Mario TTYD, The World Ends With You, Ace Attorney like half the time, Walking Dead S1, Tales From the Borderlands, The Last of Us
The Zero Escape series in particular blows my mind from an overall narrative perspective, even though it gets real hard to follow
That is a solid list that gives me intense whiplash when it gets to the Zero Escape series
Like, that game has a really fun narrative construction, but the moment to moment writing is....pretty rough, at times. Most of the women tend to not be treated very well, it suffers from the typical visual novel problem of repeating itself all the damn time, and I find that the writing that doesn't directly relate to the overall mystery or mechanics of the world is often dull and perfunctory.
The half-hour dialogue chunk right before the sudoku puzzle at the very end of 999 remains one of the most annoying things I've ever experienced.
Some of the best dialogue in 4 is based on your experiences in the previous games. At least for me. Its why Mass Effect 3 worked so well for me to.
JRPGs rarely have that, Earthbound is pretty great but I am told the other 2 Mother games didn't have as good writing because the translators stuck more to the original Japanease whereas Earthbound the guy kind of went crazy nuts. And I loved it.
Mario RPG? But again, its visiting a world I've known for a long time so maybe its just I was more emotionally invested.
That is a solid list that gives me intense whiplash when it gets to the Zero Escape series
Like, that game has a really fun narrative construction, but the moment to moment writing is....pretty rough, at times. Most of the women tend to not be treated very well, it suffers from the typical visual novel problem of repeating itself all the damn time, and I find that the writing that doesn't directly relate to the overall mystery or mechanics of the world is often dull and perfunctory.
The half-hour dialogue chunk right before the sudoku puzzle at the very end of 999 remains one of the most annoying things I've ever experienced.
Hmm
I totally get your complaints, and the women are absolutely my number one sticking point with the series
But I strongly disagree with your last point, that's the best part of the game
Makes sense. The pacifist ending is all about your connection to the characters, so if you disliked almost all of them there's no way it would hit for you. For me at least it was a fantastic experience.
I like them except Undyne actually, my main issue is with the twist and
(Undertale)
how it handles the fallen child I named. The change meant that I didn't feel any connection to Frisk and hated the actions Toby attributed to 'my character'.
FF13 Update: Hope sucks and the datalog writing around him and his "rage" is so overwrought it's hilarious.
He's a teenager who just had his mom killed, had his entire way of life taken from him, and is either going to "turn to crystal" which might as well be death or turn into a mindless zombie that wanders for all eternity.
I'd say his rage is pretty justified, though it probably shouldn't be pointed almost entirely at Snow.
FF13 Update: Hope sucks and the datalog writing around him and his "rage" is so overwrought it's hilarious.
He's a teenager who just had his mom killed, had his entire way of life taken from him, and is either going to "turn to crystal" which might as well be death or turn into a mindless zombie that wanders for all eternity.
I'd say his rage is pretty justified, though it probably shouldn't be pointed almost entirely at Snow.
People are still freaked out when male characters show extreme emotion. They want all their guys to be stoic bad asses i.e. unrepentant douchenozzles.
+4
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
Everything about Hope's portrayal and character makes perfect sense and the narrative backdrop for his personality is reasonable.
I still don't enjoy interacting with him in any way.
+6
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
FF13 Update: Hope sucks and the datalog writing around him and his "rage" is so overwrought it's hilarious.
He's a teenager who just had his mom killed, had his entire way of life taken from him, and is either going to "turn to crystal" which might as well be death or turn into a mindless zombie that wanders for all eternity.
I'd say his rage is pretty justified, though it probably shouldn't be pointed almost entirely at Snow.
People are still freaked out when male characters show extreme emotion. They want all their guys to be stoic bad asses i.e. unrepentant douchenozzles.
this is super disingenuous and overlooks the actual reasons people have issues with hope's character
hope isn't even uniquely tragic or whiny, his character is an archetype seen throughout the genre
Saga frontier 2 had an excellent story and by the standards of the day very good writing. If you gave a modern localization team a crack at that I think you'd get something very impressive.
Similarly I'd think the first saga frontier would benefit hugely from a new localization.
Pretty much the entire saga series is great. Thinking back on it. The official translations were usually phoned in but the fan translations actually showed a lot of quality.
Another really good example is breath of fire 2. Compare the original US release versus what a fan put out a couple years ago and the difference is amazing.
I think a lot of the flak people give jrpg writing can be strongly attributed to the translation/localization teams being bare bones and under supported. Because the base scripts are often full of things that don't translate well 1:1.
Also brief shout out to parasite Eve which has a pretty interesting book it was based on and which I think SE should revisit. Man, imagine a parasite eve remake.
I wouldn't have minded Hope if he had directed his anger towards the right target.
Yeah hope spends a long, long, time in terms of gameplay hours being mad at somebody he shouldn't have been
I do think it is completely understandable that he would latch onto Snow as the target for his anger, it makes sense that a child would connect the dots in that way rather than looking at the bigger picture and blaming/hating the forces that run cocoon instead
Shit real actual adults do that sort of thing all the time, you can't hate a system as readily and easily as you can a person
But he is so cartoonishly dramatic about it and the player knows he is incorrect and it takes forever for him to come around and understand the situation correctly that I think it is super easy to dismiss him as a whiny annoying baby
I used him a lot though cause he gets those big magic numbers, my goodness, plus his weapon is a boomerang and that amused me greatly
Posts
If anything I will at least give jRPGs the advantage of creating worlds I like visiting even if they don't always capitialize.
bloodborne
Yes, start with Bloodborne
I think this is another form of critical laziness that a lot of people use as an excuse to not engage with the texts in front of them, with regards to games
I'm not accusing you of that for obvious reasons
But it bugs me a lot
Telling vast, sweeping epics
Pulp Action
We're still figuring the rest, but really the next step is building new elements into those existing strengths
You've seen it tried with mass effect, an attempt to add depth to pulp Sci Fi that succeeded in a broad sense and failed upon any kind of critical analysis (which doesn't make it bad, just incomplete)
Jrpgs have to do the same thing, which is why the shift to mobile is going to really be rough for the evolution of writing in the genre
then we can get to dark souls
As an example that's expected of me, I'm interested in EarthBound on a textual level because of the critical eye it turns toward its own genre and the expectations within it, and the experimental tone it used with so many elements of what would have otherwise been a very standard text. Whether or not somebody thinks it's good or not isn't really material in that respect; I just need to be able to engage with the text
Not to say that there isn't some quality thing there, because there is, and you would win the fight if you were arguing that the majority of game writing is bad, but given how experience-driven games are I'm not sure that the focus on writing as a necessary component of the medium's growth isn't a red herring? Certainly games can focus on writing, and I love it when they do, but I don't think it's necessary—even for JRPGs, where mechanics can make up just as much if not more of an experience
I don't mean to be proscriptivist in how anyone approaches games or their writing, and apologize preemptively if I'm coming across that way
Just wanted to talk about this a bit
You know who's a good localization team?
8-4.
You know what they've localized?
Beloved Jurps Fire Emblem: Awakening, Nier, Drakengard 3, and Metal Gear Rising: REVENGEANCE.
Also some other stuff that was less good-written, but, you know. Only human.
Nier does a lot of things with narrative that only games can do.
Why I fear the ocean.
Undertale's Pacifist route is the most disappointing ending I have experienced in video games. The writing in No Mercy works because you have to play the game a specific way to get that outcome, while Pacifist makes an assumption about your general game play habits in order to execute it's twist and consequently completely missed the mark for me. Also the morality of every opponent you encounter on that route is murky at best (save Papyrus of course, he is perfect).
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully
The person who was mostly bored with or rolled my eyes at Xenoblade Chronicles' writing.
I like the game well enough, but to this day I'm still boggled by the adoration it gets.
The Zero Escape series in particular blows my mind from an overall narrative perspective, even though it gets real hard to follow
That is a solid list that gives me intense whiplash when it gets to the Zero Escape series
Like, that game has a really fun narrative construction, but the moment to moment writing is....pretty rough, at times. Most of the women tend to not be treated very well, it suffers from the typical visual novel problem of repeating itself all the damn time, and I find that the writing that doesn't directly relate to the overall mystery or mechanics of the world is often dull and perfunctory.
The half-hour dialogue chunk right before the sudoku puzzle at the very end of 999 remains one of the most annoying things I've ever experienced.
Some games even have moment to moment bouts of genuinely witty dialogue or writing
I don't think I've played a single game that I would say has impressive writing throughout, or nearly throughout
Luckily I don't care, it's totally not why I play games, if it were I'd be super depressed about basically every new title
I'd say the game with the highest amount of good writing that I've played is probably Saints Row: The Third
Especially 4.
I was very pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed the writing in those games.
JRPGs rarely have that, Earthbound is pretty great but I am told the other 2 Mother games didn't have as good writing because the translators stuck more to the original Japanease whereas Earthbound the guy kind of went crazy nuts. And I loved it.
Mario RPG? But again, its visiting a world I've known for a long time so maybe its just I was more emotionally invested.
Hmm
I totally get your complaints, and the women are absolutely my number one sticking point with the series
But I strongly disagree with your last point, that's the best part of the game
I like them except Undyne actually, my main issue is with the twist and
(Undertale)
Old hat at this point though.
Trails is actually a good example of adding nuance to very standard games writing
it's where i'd like the genre to go
He's a teenager who just had his mom killed, had his entire way of life taken from him, and is either going to "turn to crystal" which might as well be death or turn into a mindless zombie that wanders for all eternity.
I'd say his rage is pretty justified, though it probably shouldn't be pointed almost entirely at Snow.
they are very poorly portrayed in the writing
People are still freaked out when male characters show extreme emotion. They want all their guys to be stoic bad asses i.e. unrepentant douchenozzles.
I still don't enjoy interacting with him in any way.
Snow was the best character in FF13.
Sazh and Fang and Vanille are all RIGHT THERE.
By best I mean out of the interesting characters he was my favorite.
this is super disingenuous and overlooks the actual reasons people have issues with hope's character
hope isn't even uniquely tragic or whiny, his character is an archetype seen throughout the genre
Similarly I'd think the first saga frontier would benefit hugely from a new localization.
Pretty much the entire saga series is great. Thinking back on it. The official translations were usually phoned in but the fan translations actually showed a lot of quality.
Another really good example is breath of fire 2. Compare the original US release versus what a fan put out a couple years ago and the difference is amazing.
I think a lot of the flak people give jrpg writing can be strongly attributed to the translation/localization teams being bare bones and under supported. Because the base scripts are often full of things that don't translate well 1:1.
Also brief shout out to parasite Eve which has a pretty interesting book it was based on and which I think SE should revisit. Man, imagine a parasite eve remake.
Yeah hope spends a long, long, time in terms of gameplay hours being mad at somebody he shouldn't have been
I do think it is completely understandable that he would latch onto Snow as the target for his anger, it makes sense that a child would connect the dots in that way rather than looking at the bigger picture and blaming/hating the forces that run cocoon instead
Shit real actual adults do that sort of thing all the time, you can't hate a system as readily and easily as you can a person
But he is so cartoonishly dramatic about it and the player knows he is incorrect and it takes forever for him to come around and understand the situation correctly that I think it is super easy to dismiss him as a whiny annoying baby
I used him a lot though cause he gets those big magic numbers, my goodness, plus his weapon is a boomerang and that amused me greatly