I was under the impression from TWS that Hydra consisted of a dude in a computer and Bucky at that point, though I could be misremembering since I last saw it when it came out.
And Strucker and Pierce and several US Senators and half of SHIELD and...it was a big thing.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
At the very least they should have just activated them to simply cause as much damage as possible around the world, that's your end TWS credit stinger.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
my interpretation was they were the best assassins "before" the serum and the serum just made them like cap. it's weird what we do/don't know about them though. Bucky says they could sort of be controlled but the scene shows bucky getting the russian guy out and the next we see them is on ice so...who knows? pretty open to interpretation i guess.
Bucky is Hydras Winter Soldier. The rest of them would be Russias'. Good way to hand wave them out of existence within the MCU. Hydra gimicked them up when they realized they wouldn't have access to them.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
Wasn't there like a day or two total in the course of that movie? They were probably just too far away and took too long to defrost.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
my interpretation was they were the best assassins "before" the serum and the serum just made them like cap. it's weird what we do/don't know about them though. Bucky says they could sort of be controlled but the scene shows bucky getting the russian guy out and the next we see them is on ice so...who knows? pretty open to interpretation i guess.
Like everyone other than Cap, the assassins got a flawed version of the serum. That particular version apparently made them very aggressive and volatile, which makes sense considering what happened to Banner.
I think Zola must have come very close to a successful version using what was left of Erskine's work in progress - the one the Red Skull took - and god knows whatever else that he gave Bucky. Only then they ran out of the Erskine formula and had to use the SSR's inferior attempt to reproduce it, hence the rage issues.
I was under the impression from TWS that Hydra consisted of a dude in a computer and Bucky at that point, though I could be misremembering since I last saw it when it came out.
Lots of people were HYDRA in that movie, that's why it's a massive fire fight at SHIELD HQ. It gets extra messy in AoS.
releasing the USSR "winter soldiers" is contrary to his goal. He has come to the conclusion that the avengers are too strong to attack directly, so he's trying to make them fight each other. Giving Cap/Stark/Bucky 6+ crazy supersoldiers to fight would be more likely to galvanize them than actually accomplish what zemo wants.
Zemo is kind of a fun meta-character this way; the protagonists obviously by now have too much plot armor to fall against any external villain, so he gets them to fight each other
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
the Winter Soldiers, with our heroes reuniting to fight a common foe. I'm glad that's not what we got - I care about the characters we have, I don't need another set of bad guys with little to no personality. Seeing two characters I like and that I both root for in one way or another fighting, and both having strong motivation to fight, that's a hundred times more interesting and engaging for me than, oh, 90% of the MCU showdowns.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were barely controlled. They showed that in the flashback scene where they killed everyone in the room, and when Steve asks Bucky
Steve: "Could the doctor control them?"
Bucky: "Enough"
Bucky was the scalpel, the others were the hammer.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
Because they wanted Fury killed quietly. When Steve became involved, Bucky was already there. The aftermath of the attack on the bridge was because Steve and the rest escaped, it wasn't part of the plan for them to have a running shootout across the city like that.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
my interpretation was they were the best assassins "before" the serum and the serum just made them like cap. it's weird what we do/don't know about them though. Bucky says they could sort of be controlled but the scene shows bucky getting the russian guy out and the next we see them is on ice so...who knows? pretty open to interpretation i guess.
They were a failed experiment the same way all failed experiments with the super soldier serum go. They think that they can make the perfect soldier out of hardened killers who take orders, and it fails because the serum makes you mentally more of what you already are. So Hydra's kill team, who don't care who they're out to kill, becomes a bunch of indiscriminate killers.
That was a tie-in back to the first movie where Dr. Erskine spells it out.
Erskine: [Displaying a wine bottle] This is from Augsburg, my city. So many people forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own. You know, after the last war, they... My people struggled. They... they felt weak... they felt small. Then Hitler comes along with the marching, and the big show, and the flags, and the, and the... and he... he hears of me, and my work, and he finds me, and he says "You." He says "You will make us strong." Well, I am not interested. So he sends the head of Hydra, his research division, a brilliant scientist by the name of Johann Schmidt. Now Schmidt is a member of the inner circle and he is ambitious. He and Hitler share a passion for occult power and Teutonic myth. Hitler uses his fantasies to inspire his followers, but for Schmidt, it is not fantasy. For him, it is real. He has become convinced that there is a great power hidden in the earth, left here by the gods, waiting to be seized by a superior man. So when he hears about my formula and what it can do, he cannot resist. Schmidt must become that superior man.
Steve: Did it make him stronger?
Erskine: Yeah, but... there were other... effects. The serum was not ready. But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows... compassion.
and yet bucky is worried enough that he states the 4 soldiers would have the ability to topple governments if zemo got ahold of them.
Like, any hydra agent super or not could have run the starks off the road, i just thought it was silly that they used the winter soldier for that since it seemed to be a "big deal" whenever he was brought out of freezing.
and yet bucky is worried enough that he states the 4 soldiers would have the ability to topple governments if zemo got ahold of them.
Like, any hydra agent super or not could have run the starks off the road, i just thought it was silly that they used the winter soldier for that since it seemed to be a "big deal" whenever he was brought out of freezing.
I thought that before seeing the movie. (Bucky killing the Starks was a popular theory prior to release). The presence of super soldier serum however upgrades it from a simple assassination to "We need our best agent on this job."
and yet bucky is worried enough that he states the 4 soldiers would have the ability to topple governments if zemo got ahold of them.
Like, any hydra agent super or not could have run the starks off the road, i just thought it was silly that they used the winter soldier for that since it seemed to be a "big deal" whenever he was brought out of freezing.
Toppling governments isn't the same thing as performing an assassination with no witnesses. From what was shown, the other Winter Soldiers weren't controlled very well. They could topple governments, but they probably wouldn't follow orders as well as Bucky. Besides, the whole point of the Starks mission was to get the serum to make the other winter soldiers in the first place.
I don't think they woke Bucky up and said "Run the Starks off the road". They told him he had a target and gave him the parameters, and he planned it out from there. It was a high value target so they sent in the guy who had succeeded at all his missions up to that point.
Sure, anyone could run the Starks off the road, but Bucky probably had to plan out the mission on his own and just picked that as the best way to do it.
Toppling a government and replacing it with the one you want takes planning and precision.
The extra winter soldiers could do the former, but not the latter. Captain America's worry was that Zemo could do the latter if he got control of the extra soldiers.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were barely controlled. They showed that in the flashback scene where they killed everyone in the room, and when Steve asks Bucky
Steve: "Could the doctor control them?"
Bucky: "Enough"
Bucky was the scalpel, the others were the hammer.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
Because they wanted Fury killed quietly. When Steve became involved, Bucky was already there. The aftermath of the attack on the bridge was because Steve and the rest escaped, it wasn't part of the plan for them to have a running shootout across the city like that.
The initial assassination attempt on Fury was a bunch of dudes machine gunning his SUV in downtown DC. They wanted Fury dead very loudly in order to scare the World Security Council Holograms into pushing ahead with Insight over everyone's objections.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were barely controlled. They showed that in the flashback scene where they killed everyone in the room, and when Steve asks Bucky
Steve: "Could the doctor control them?"
Bucky: "Enough"
Bucky was the scalpel, the others were the hammer.
what's funny is that bucky even mentions that the other 4 were "the best assassins" because they could blend in and be anywhere do anything. So would hydra really pull out the winter soldier to run stark sr off the road? seems a little contrived but whatever, it was a fun movie.
The other Winter Soldiers were created from the blue serum Bucky stole from Howard.
However, it doesn't make sense why Hydra didn't send the other Winter Soldiers against Captain America and Nick Fury in the last Captain America movie.
Because they wanted Fury killed quietly. When Steve became involved, Bucky was already there. The aftermath of the attack on the bridge was because Steve and the rest escaped, it wasn't part of the plan for them to have a running shootout across the city like that.
The initial assassination attempt on Fury was a bunch of dudes machine gunning his SUV in downtown DC. They wanted Fury dead very loudly in order to scare the World Security Council Holograms into pushing ahead with Insight over everyone's objections.
Actually rewatching Winter Soldier, Pierces manipulation of the Security Council makes no sense:
1st he claims that Fury is a hero, and that is why Insight was put on hold
2nd upon learning that Fury was behind the boat incident starts to say that Fury might be a traitor
3rd says that since Fury was against Insight, it means that they must rush ahead with Insight.
This completely ignores that Fury was just assassinated by an unknown force, and Fury was against Insight, so that means that by charging forward with Insight, they are playing into his assassins hands. (I understand that Pierce knows all this, and it is what he is trying to manipulate the council for, but the rest of the Council were not Hydra, and seem especially prone to manipulation. Combined with their unleashing a nuke of questionable effectiveness on NY during the 'incident' and I really start to agree with Cap about oversight)
Captain America is always in favor of being accountable to the world, he just refuses to let them choose which situations they are allowed to be involved in. He would rather ask for forgiveness than permission.
The story built around Fury was that he was selling secrets (which is why he hired a pirate crew to attack his own boat, so he could have them stolen them and not be traced back to him) and the deal went bad, ending in his execution by whoever he was trying to sell secrets to. The delay in launching insight was blamed on Fury trying to hide his illicit activities.
Pierce manipulated things so that these are the assumptions that the WSC would make, while he could profess Fury's innocence, making the decision to reactivate insight look like it was happening against Pierce's wishes. Basically he used reverse psychology. "fury was innocent! Don't launch insight!" "you had a traitor working under you so we won't trust your judgment! Launch insight!"
The story built around Fury was that he was selling secrets (which is why he hired a pirate crew to attack his own boat, so he could have them stolen them and not be traced back to him) and the deal went bad, ending in his execution by whoever he was trying to sell secrets to. The delay in launching insight was blamed on Fury trying to hide his illicit activities.
Pierce manipulated things so that these are the assumptions that the WSC would make, while he could profess Fury's innocence, making the decision to reactivate insight look like it was happening against Pierce's wishes. Basically he used reverse psychology. "fury was innocent! Don't launch insight!" "you had a traitor working under you so we won't trust your judgment! Launch insight!"
Seems to me a potentially compromised superweapon isn't something you want to rush into use.
the council don't know that fury wants to delay insight, do they? He asks Pierce to delay it without saying why, and Pierce presumably assumes Fury is onto him and has him offed. With Fury's delay dispensed with, Insight launches when it would've launched anyway
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
the council don't know that fury wants to delay insight, do they? He asks Pierce to delay it without saying why, and Pierce presumably assumes Fury is onto him and has him offed. With Fury's delay dispensed with, Insight launches when it would've launched anyway
IIRC, they specifically rescind delaying insight because the request came from Fury.
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And Strucker and Pierce and several US Senators and half of SHIELD and...it was a big thing.
my interpretation was they were the best assassins "before" the serum and the serum just made them like cap. it's weird what we do/don't know about them though. Bucky says they could sort of be controlled but the scene shows bucky getting the russian guy out and the next we see them is on ice so...who knows? pretty open to interpretation i guess.
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Yeah, especially after getting iced like that.
Oooo I did.
Like everyone other than Cap, the assassins got a flawed version of the serum. That particular version apparently made them very aggressive and volatile, which makes sense considering what happened to Banner.
I think Zola must have come very close to a successful version using what was left of Erskine's work in progress - the one the Red Skull took - and god knows whatever else that he gave Bucky. Only then they ran out of the Erskine formula and had to use the SSR's inferior attempt to reproduce it, hence the rage issues.
Lots of people were HYDRA in that movie, that's why it's a massive fire fight at SHIELD HQ. It gets extra messy in AoS.
Zemo is kind of a fun meta-character this way; the protagonists obviously by now have too much plot armor to fall against any external villain, so he gets them to fight each other
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
The other Winter Soldiers were barely controlled. They showed that in the flashback scene where they killed everyone in the room, and when Steve asks Bucky
Steve: "Could the doctor control them?"
Bucky: "Enough"
Bucky was the scalpel, the others were the hammer.
Because they wanted Fury killed quietly. When Steve became involved, Bucky was already there. The aftermath of the attack on the bridge was because Steve and the rest escaped, it wasn't part of the plan for them to have a running shootout across the city like that.
They were a failed experiment the same way all failed experiments with the super soldier serum go. They think that they can make the perfect soldier out of hardened killers who take orders, and it fails because the serum makes you mentally more of what you already are. So Hydra's kill team, who don't care who they're out to kill, becomes a bunch of indiscriminate killers.
That was a tie-in back to the first movie where Dr. Erskine spells it out.
Like, any hydra agent super or not could have run the starks off the road, i just thought it was silly that they used the winter soldier for that since it seemed to be a "big deal" whenever he was brought out of freezing.
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
I thought that before seeing the movie. (Bucky killing the Starks was a popular theory prior to release). The presence of super soldier serum however upgrades it from a simple assassination to "We need our best agent on this job."
Toppling governments isn't the same thing as performing an assassination with no witnesses. From what was shown, the other Winter Soldiers weren't controlled very well. They could topple governments, but they probably wouldn't follow orders as well as Bucky. Besides, the whole point of the Starks mission was to get the serum to make the other winter soldiers in the first place.
I don't think they woke Bucky up and said "Run the Starks off the road". They told him he had a target and gave him the parameters, and he planned it out from there. It was a high value target so they sent in the guy who had succeeded at all his missions up to that point.
Sure, anyone could run the Starks off the road, but Bucky probably had to plan out the mission on his own and just picked that as the best way to do it.
Toppling a government and replacing it with the one you want takes planning and precision.
The extra winter soldiers could do the former, but not the latter. Captain America's worry was that Zemo could do the latter if he got control of the extra soldiers.
He pulls up along the right side of the car and slams it with his left arm.
I don't think even MCI movie physics will allow someone on a motorcycle to push a car off a road with their arm.
The initial assassination attempt on Fury was a bunch of dudes machine gunning his SUV in downtown DC. They wanted Fury dead very loudly in order to scare the World Security Council Holograms into pushing ahead with Insight over everyone's objections.
He throws an explosive device into the car window. Hence the explosion.
Actually rewatching Winter Soldier, Pierces manipulation of the Security Council makes no sense:
1st he claims that Fury is a hero, and that is why Insight was put on hold
2nd upon learning that Fury was behind the boat incident starts to say that Fury might be a traitor
3rd says that since Fury was against Insight, it means that they must rush ahead with Insight.
This completely ignores that Fury was just assassinated by an unknown force, and Fury was against Insight, so that means that by charging forward with Insight, they are playing into his assassins hands. (I understand that Pierce knows all this, and it is what he is trying to manipulate the council for, but the rest of the Council were not Hydra, and seem especially prone to manipulation. Combined with their unleashing a nuke of questionable effectiveness on NY during the 'incident' and I really start to agree with Cap about oversight)
Captain America is always in favor of being accountable to the world, he just refuses to let them choose which situations they are allowed to be involved in. He would rather ask for forgiveness than permission.
MWO: Adamski
Pierce manipulated things so that these are the assumptions that the WSC would make, while he could profess Fury's innocence, making the decision to reactivate insight look like it was happening against Pierce's wishes. Basically he used reverse psychology. "fury was innocent! Don't launch insight!" "you had a traitor working under you so we won't trust your judgment! Launch insight!"
pleasepaypreacher.net
Seems to me a potentially compromised superweapon isn't something you want to rush into use.
MWO: Adamski
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
IIRC, they specifically rescind delaying insight because the request came from Fury.