Point #2 there basically demonstrates why the Accords themselves are only kind of worth drafting: if the Avengers' actions can be defended in court by normal legal means, through just hiring really good lawyers, then it's probably kind of asinine to hold them Special Responsible or something.
Which is an interesting angle I'd have liked to have seen, the bad thing is that by Marvel ignoring that subject entirely we're not sure exactly what's going on in that sphere so what we're left with is the Accords, and totally unaccountable vigilantism. I'd like for other media to tackle this, like AoS, since the movies aren't inclined to.
Like, vigilantism is illegal. But if just a few really good lawyers can successfully defend the Avengers, then creating special new laws is... I dunno, I want to say unconstitutional, but I'm sure that's not right. It's certainly not ethical.
Why wouldn't it be ethical? Enhanced individuals would definitely have an impact on legislation where they decide to start fists fights on the street, Marvel tiptoed around that as early as Iron Man 2, now the events in that movie are mundane to the weird shit Enhanced have gotten involved with. New laws are created over less. Also, this is on an international scale, not the US so the constitution wouldn't do anything for Enhanced outside America.
Except the times that Shield investigated the members of the Avengers, and Tony and Natasha went in front of subcommittee hearings for their actions?
The movies don't shy away from showing that people have tried to investigate and prosecute the superheroes, but they aren't legal dramas either.
In a perfect world not constrained by contracts and schedules and budgets and ratings, we'd get a whole mini-series of explanation and hearings helmed by Matt Murdock and team trying to win a legal case for the heroes.
If that's true then why was Tony sweating about their coming for the Avengers?
Just wanted to bring this up, Tony is sweating about UN and other government action because he is an American with large assets all over the world. Most of the other Avengers can go dark or on the run and it wouldn't matter because they have either inherit powers or spycraft training to allow them to continue living in the world even if the governments of the world come down on them.
Tony doesn't. If his assets got frozen, or even if he couldn't have access to his home anymore, he'd probably never get to suit up again. That thing needs expensive and constant maintenance. Hell, War-machine at least could always return to military service (he's never really gone rouge like the others).
It is kind of ironic, the rich playboy is the one who can seriously tell the others to "check their privilege." While his money has given him a lot of leeway, he still needs to operate within the world and has so much more to loose than everyone else. That is probably a big part of why he sweats the accords so much, the work and the money he's spent bringing together and supporting this "family" is vulnerable and so he needs to protect it as much as possible.
We're talking about Tony "Box of scraps in a cave" Stark, pretty sure he could make do with out his fortune and tools
But the Avengers could not. They need a base, some one to make the suits, quinjets to get around with, food to eat, water for showers....
As said in A2, Cap may "lead" the team, but Tony pays for all the toys, suits, makes everyone look cool, the communicators, the base etc.
Not only that, but i really think its less of a money issue for Tony, than it is trying to keep the family together. He knows the world has spoken at this point (well, 117 countries in the world) and that the only way to keep the team is to sign the accords. He doesnt LIKE them, but knows the writing is on the wall and is trying to preserve the integrity of the team.
Personally i think thats important.
#teamtony does have to mean pro-accords.
In a perfect world not constrained by contracts and schedules and budgets and ratings, we'd get a whole mini-series of explanation and hearings helmed by Matt Murdock and team trying to win a legal case for the heroes.
Preeeeeeety much. While all this extra world building would be sweet nectar for us nerds, the majority of the movie going public would be bored to tears and gripe if there was an extra 30 minutes in CA:CW showing what the Accords were and how they worked.
It'd be nice if they had some outlet for this kind content. Something where you did not need all the machinery to make a movie or TV show. It's a shame all Marvel does is live action.
Mind you, the movie goes to lengths to indicate that Tony is feeling guilty af about Ultron and Pepper, too, and his immediate judgment to sign the accord was more of an emotional one than a well-reasoned one. The same can be said of Cap the multiple times he goes behind everyone else's back going to the rescue of Bucky when he could've reasonably tried to work something out with the rest of the team, and his general distrust of anyone being in charge who isn't him. Nat is really the only one who has her head on straight in regards to trying to play around the Accord as a political move but in a cautious way.
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
Yes, but its the rare oneshot. For example, they released a comic showing where Warmachine was during the Battle of New York.
See, I don't get this at all. They've got the perfect opportunity to cross-promote here. Done right they could tell side stories that help flesh out this universe without being necessary to understand and enjoy the movies. They'd make money, fans would get more of their fave superheroes, what's not to love?
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
Right on.
I will not be put into the pre-determined boxes MCU has decided!
#teamironman #teamcap #teamWidow
Marvel Comics has definitely changed around their mainstream 616 lineup to better embrace the growing fanbase from their movies. But there isn't much in the way of actual MCU stuff yet.
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
Right on.
I will not be put into the pre-determined boxes MCU has decided!
#teamironman #teamcap #teamWidow
Yes, but its the rare oneshot. For example, they released a comic showing where Warmachine was during the Battle of New York.
See, I don't get this at all. They've got the perfect opportunity to cross-promote here. Done right they could tell side stories that help flesh out this universe without being necessary to understand and enjoy the movies. They'd make money, fans would get more of their fave superheroes, what's not to love?
They're probably not comfortable letting anything important happen in a comic that relatively few movie-goers are going to read, and anything established in a comic threatens to mess with what they might want to put in a script later. They already juggle a lot of continuity with the various TV/netflix series.
At any rate it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They already have a quite a few comics universes as it is. Probably not wise to dilute it any further.
Marvel Comics has definitely changed around their mainstream 616 lineup to better embrace the growing fanbase from their movies. But there isn't much in the way of actual MCU stuff yet.
Agents of Shield has probably had the biggest impact in the comic universe at this point. A number of new characters now appear in the comics and they have an ongoing series. The events don't cross-universe, but the characters' relation to one another does, from my understanding.
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
Right on.
I will not be put into the pre-determined boxes MCU has decided!
#teamironman #teamcap #teamWidow
#TeamWidowandCarterRoadTrip
DON'T TEMPT ME WITH A GOOD TIME...
(those two would play off each other great! Jarvis still gets to drive right?)
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
Right on.
I will not be put into the pre-determined boxes MCU has decided!
#teamironman #teamcap #teamWidow
#TeamWidowandCarterRoadTrip
DON'T TEMPT ME WITH A GOOD TIME...
(those two would play off each other great! Jarvis still gets to drive right?)
Marvel Comics has definitely changed around their mainstream 616 lineup to better embrace the growing fanbase from their movies. But there isn't much in the way of actual MCU stuff yet.
Agents of Shield has probably had the biggest impact in the comic universe at this point. A number of new characters now appear in the comics and they have an ongoing series. The events don't cross-universe, but the characters' relation to one another does, from my understanding.
Well, Coulson exists as a character in 616, which he definitely didn't before he became a household name via the movie universe. Nick Fury has been replaced by his black, one-eyed son who is also named Nick on a technicality (and is not to be confused with the Ultimate Fury that was the inspiration for the movie Fury). Daisy Johnson was director of SHIELD for a little while. The Inhumans are, like, a thing now in 616, which they never really were before on this level. (As an aside, I'm actually kind of surprised they aren't tied up in the FF movie rights.)
The Avengers were back to a more classic lineup, before the unpleasantness. Battleworld featured roaming packs of both Hulks and Thors.
Hawkeye is suddenly popular, though clearly in way over his head.
Tony is evil, but trying really hard not to be while actively actually being evil. So that tracks exactly with the movie universe.
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
What? She did it because of emotion not because of shrewd reasoning
well, quake/daisy johnson existed in the comics long before the TV show (as far back as secret war afaik, maybe earlier.) She kinda had kinda dropped off the map for a while though
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
well, quake/daisy johnson existed in the comics long before the TV show (as far back as secret war afaik, maybe earlier.) She kinda had kinda dropped off the map for a while though
Nat also makes the shrewd decision to aid Steve in escaping. Out of everyone in the movie, she's the only one to be able to truly put aside her emotions and do what is best for everyone, IMO.
What? She did it because of emotion not because of shrewd reasoning
Ehhh. You don't double agent on emotion and she was against Team Cap to start and tried talking him down etc.
Nothing in the plot suggested that anyone did anything (except non-avengers who made the rational choice for overwight) on anything but emotion. She helped her friend like she had been trying the entire time (initially by trying to get him to sign and afterwards by directly helping him)
The bomb situation in Lagos was a straight up Trolley Problem. There was a bomb that had already exploded and the choice was where the explosive effects would be felt. Somehow blaming the whole thing on Wanda and going so far as to say she was the one who killed people is pretty dubious. Is the argument that she didn't try hard enough to contain the explosion or that she chose to throw it into the building as opposed to some location well away from any buildings?
Things about The Raft:
1) It seems to have been built in about a week, or it had been in the works for a while and the powers that be were just waiting for a chance to spring the Accords on people. And you know the damn thing had to have had some Stark input, lord knows he wasn't at all surprised or uncomfortable when he went there.
2) The only people we saw in there were the good guys. Which might have been a bit of a missed opportunity on Marvel's part. Either that or this place was only built to hold heroes and the baddies I assume get a bullet in the back of the head.
3) So how exactly are they holding Wanda? She's a telekinetic with spooky mind powers, do they electro-zap her if anything fishy happens? And why are Ant-Man and Falcon stuck in such a hole? Their powers come entirely from technology that someone else designed, without that they're a skilled B&E guy and an ex-military PTSD counselor, respectively.
4) Sticking a bunch of heroes in an underwater prison seems like a gilded invitation to Hydra or similar to roll in, open a few valves, and drown everyone.
The Raft was mentioned on Agents of SHIELD in the first season. It's been around for at least that long as a concept in the MCU.
I think if Panther hadn't been right there, Widow probably would have tried to delay or talk Cap down. But she knew Panther wanted to get his murder on and that wouldn't do.
I think if Panther hadn't been right there, Widow probably would have tried to delay or talk Cap down. But she knew Panther wanted to get his murder on and that wouldn't do.
Which I think means even more given that Bucky had (albeit under the influence of programming) tried to kill her like a couple of days prior.
But as established in the first Avengers when Romanov and Barton talk after she hits him in the head really hard, I think she has extra empathy for those who have been subjected to mental shenanigans, especially ones forced on them like Bucky was.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I think if Panther hadn't been right there, Widow probably would have tried to delay or talk Cap down. But she knew Panther wanted to get his murder on and that wouldn't do.
Widow was the first to realize that, if she didn't intervene, the fight was going to end with Iron Man trying to explain to everyone why they just participated in the unsanctioned execution of Bucky and possible Captain America at the hands of Black Panther.
+7
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I think if Panther hadn't been right there, Widow probably would have tried to delay or talk Cap down. But she knew Panther wanted to get his murder on and that wouldn't do.
Widow was the first to realize that, if she didn't intervene, the fight was going to end with Iron Man trying to explain to everyone why they just participated in the unsanctioned execution of Bucky and possible Captain America at the hands of Black Panther.
It's pretty clear that Team Iron Man was pulling their punches
I think if Panther hadn't been right there, Widow probably would have tried to delay or talk Cap down. But she knew Panther wanted to get his murder on and that wouldn't do.
Widow was the first to realize that, if she didn't intervene, the fight was going to end with Iron Man trying to explain to everyone why they just participated in the unsanctioned execution of Bucky and possible Captain America at the hands of Black Panther.
It's pretty clear that Team Iron Man was pulling their punches
And objectively true that Black Panther was not (at least not against Bucky, probably was for the others).
I think it's a small throwback to Winter Soldier. After Steve saved her life in the bunker, Nat's a little humbled: "Be honest, if it were down to me to save your life, would you trust me to do it?"
"I would now."
We also know from her remarks in the Avengers that she is loathe to leave a debt like that unpaid.
I think if Panther hadn't been right there, Widow probably would have tried to delay or talk Cap down. But she knew Panther wanted to get his murder on and that wouldn't do.
Widow was the first to realize that, if she didn't intervene, the fight was going to end with Iron Man trying to explain to everyone why they just participated in the unsanctioned execution of Bucky and possible Captain America at the hands of Black Panther.
It's pretty clear that Team Iron Man was pulling their punches
Except Panther on Bucky, which is what Phillishere was referring to.
The way I saw Nat's action is that she wanted to end this fight as quickly and painlessly as possible. The longer that fight goes on, the more likely the possibility that someone gets seriously hurt. Cap's not gonna stop because he can't, so she figures it's best to let Cap and Bucky escape and deal with the aftermath later, even though she thinks Cap is in the wrong. [Speculation]On an emotional level I think she wants to go with Cap, but puts the needs and safety of the team above her own desires.[/Speculation]
Posts
Except the times that Shield investigated the members of the Avengers, and Tony and Natasha went in front of subcommittee hearings for their actions?
The movies don't shy away from showing that people have tried to investigate and prosecute the superheroes, but they aren't legal dramas either.
Just wanted to bring this up, Tony is sweating about UN and other government action because he is an American with large assets all over the world. Most of the other Avengers can go dark or on the run and it wouldn't matter because they have either inherit powers or spycraft training to allow them to continue living in the world even if the governments of the world come down on them.
Tony doesn't. If his assets got frozen, or even if he couldn't have access to his home anymore, he'd probably never get to suit up again. That thing needs expensive and constant maintenance. Hell, War-machine at least could always return to military service (he's never really gone rouge like the others).
It is kind of ironic, the rich playboy is the one who can seriously tell the others to "check their privilege." While his money has given him a lot of leeway, he still needs to operate within the world and has so much more to loose than everyone else. That is probably a big part of why he sweats the accords so much, the work and the money he's spent bringing together and supporting this "family" is vulnerable and so he needs to protect it as much as possible.
But the Avengers could not. They need a base, some one to make the suits, quinjets to get around with, food to eat, water for showers....
As said in A2, Cap may "lead" the team, but Tony pays for all the toys, suits, makes everyone look cool, the communicators, the base etc.
Not only that, but i really think its less of a money issue for Tony, than it is trying to keep the family together. He knows the world has spoken at this point (well, 117 countries in the world) and that the only way to keep the team is to sign the accords. He doesnt LIKE them, but knows the writing is on the wall and is trying to preserve the integrity of the team.
Personally i think thats important.
#teamtony does have to mean pro-accords.
Preeeeeeety much. While all this extra world building would be sweet nectar for us nerds, the majority of the movie going public would be bored to tears and gripe if there was an extra 30 minutes in CA:CW showing what the Accords were and how they worked.
It'd be nice if they had some outlet for this kind content. Something where you did not need all the machinery to make a movie or TV show. It's a shame all Marvel does is live action.
Yes, but its the rare oneshot. For example, they released a comic showing where Warmachine was during the Battle of New York.
See, I don't get this at all. They've got the perfect opportunity to cross-promote here. Done right they could tell side stories that help flesh out this universe without being necessary to understand and enjoy the movies. They'd make money, fans would get more of their fave superheroes, what's not to love?
Right on.
I will not be put into the pre-determined boxes MCU has decided!
#teamironman #teamcap #teamWidow
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
#TeamWidowandCarterRoadTrip
They're probably not comfortable letting anything important happen in a comic that relatively few movie-goers are going to read, and anything established in a comic threatens to mess with what they might want to put in a script later. They already juggle a lot of continuity with the various TV/netflix series.
At any rate it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They already have a quite a few comics universes as it is. Probably not wise to dilute it any further.
Agents of Shield has probably had the biggest impact in the comic universe at this point. A number of new characters now appear in the comics and they have an ongoing series. The events don't cross-universe, but the characters' relation to one another does, from my understanding.
DON'T TEMPT ME WITH A GOOD TIME...
(those two would play off each other great! Jarvis still gets to drive right?)
Edit: Damn i was thinking Peggy not Sharron.
.... Weekend at Peggy's?
ohgod I'm so sorry
Well, Coulson exists as a character in 616, which he definitely didn't before he became a household name via the movie universe. Nick Fury has been replaced by his black, one-eyed son who is also named Nick on a technicality (and is not to be confused with the Ultimate Fury that was the inspiration for the movie Fury). Daisy Johnson was director of SHIELD for a little while. The Inhumans are, like, a thing now in 616, which they never really were before on this level. (As an aside, I'm actually kind of surprised they aren't tied up in the FF movie rights.)
The Avengers were back to a more classic lineup, before the unpleasantness. Battleworld featured roaming packs of both Hulks and Thors.
Hawkeye is suddenly popular, though clearly in way over his head.
Tony is evil, but trying really hard not to be while actively actually being evil. So that tracks exactly with the movie universe.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
What? She did it because of emotion not because of shrewd reasoning
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
And when she showed back up she was still 19.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Ehhh. You don't double agent on emotion and she was against Team Cap to start and tried talking him down etc.
The Raft was mentioned on Agents of SHIELD in the first season. It's been around for at least that long as a concept in the MCU.
Which I think means even more given that Bucky had (albeit under the influence of programming) tried to kill her like a couple of days prior.
But as established in the first Avengers when Romanov and Barton talk after she hits him in the head really hard, I think she has extra empathy for those who have been subjected to mental shenanigans, especially ones forced on them like Bucky was.
Widow was the first to realize that, if she didn't intervene, the fight was going to end with Iron Man trying to explain to everyone why they just participated in the unsanctioned execution of Bucky and possible Captain America at the hands of Black Panther.
It's pretty clear that Team Iron Man was pulling their punches
And objectively true that Black Panther was not (at least not against Bucky, probably was for the others).
"I would now."
We also know from her remarks in the Avengers that she is loathe to leave a debt like that unpaid.
Except Panther on Bucky, which is what Phillishere was referring to.
pleasepaypreacher.net
He should probably thank her with steamy hot sex because the audience would be really into that.
T'Challa + Nat = hawt as fuq?
Yeah that could actually be a really bad day for T'Challa.
But still probably worth it.