please quote my anti bi statement, ill gladly be taken to task for it. please, please find that qoute
The issue is that when you say "straight people don't do this", the implication is "I will judge you if you do this and appear straight". Which isn't the same thing at all because you can't necessarily "tell" the difference between a hetero person and a bi or otherwise queer-but-cis-passing person. So now those people have to worry about being unwelcome because they don't "look" queer enough.
I don't think that's what you meant, but it's how people are going to interpret a statement like that. It's how people did interpret it.
too simple question, but just so I know: should straight people just stay away from Pride events entirely? Should organizations of any kind? My library (system, not just mine) marches in DC's Pride parade and tables at the festival and most of the folks that represent us are queer but there are some straight ones as well, if I'm ever in a position to influence that decision should I steer the ship clear of participating?
The thing is to be aware of the space you're in. Pride as a whole, the parades in particular, are places for LGBT folks to say "we exist, we're not going anywhere, and we deserve to feel as safe as anyone else". If a group, or anyone who isn't LGBT wants to come and say "we're glad you exist, please stay, and we want you to feel safe" then by all means come on down. If a group says "that's a great marketing opportunity, whatever to the message", or someone who isn't LGBT says "hey a party whoo hoo let's get down" then yeah that's shitty behavior.
In your case, depending on resources, if you've ever got the authority/influence, maybe print up LGBT reading lists of available books or something, just show that you're there to support the community, not take advantage of their gatherings.
its splitting hairs and rushing to create a boogieman when im simply referring to straight people and making a criticism, and youre right, it could be construed as critical of bi people, because i was going with fluid qualifier like "it stands to reason that" and for some reason an etymology gaffe means i'm erasing bi people? we're also gonna ignore the edits and added clarification. alright, good shit
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
straight people do not ever at all, have situations where they fear for their lives for kissing in public. hell, id feel uncomfortable kissing at pride, especially now. and i dont feel comfortable kissing in public outside of pride. illustrating this and politely asking something is a world of difference between laws drafted all over the country stating where i can or cannot shit or piss. full stop
except for straight people who are in interracial relationships
straight people who are in abled/disabled relationships
straight people who are minorities and in an unsafe place
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
straight people do not ever at all, have situations where they fear for their lives for kissing in public. hell, id feel uncomfortable kissing at pride, especially now. and i dont feel comfortable kissing in public outside of pride. illustrating this and politely asking something is a world of difference between laws drafted all over the country stating where i can or cannot shit or piss. full stop
except for straight people who are in interracial relationships
straight people who are in abled/disabled relationships
straight people who are minorities and in an unsafe place
1. so a racial premise. not a straight premise
2. so a disability based bigotry. not for being straight
3. so a racial premise. not for being straight
Look, as much as the wording Calamity Jane used is very similar to common bi erasure rhetoric I think she's by far one of the people around here who deserves the benefit of doubt for this sort of thing.
I totally understand that this is a pretty charged topic (with the caveat that I do say this as someone who only discovered their bisexuality a bit over a year ago...) but I think being charitable about what others are saying here when we're communicating via a medium that is very good at causing misunderstandings is important to consider as well. Especially for people who are known factors.
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
straight people do not ever at all, have situations where they fear for their lives for kissing in public. hell, id feel uncomfortable kissing at pride, especially now. and i dont feel comfortable kissing in public outside of pride. illustrating this and politely asking something is a world of difference between laws drafted all over the country stating where i can or cannot shit or piss. full stop
except for straight people who are in interracial relationships
straight people who are in abled/disabled relationships
straight people who are minorities and in an unsafe place
1. so a racial premise. not a straight premise
2. so a disability based bigotry. not for being straight
3. so a racial premise. not for being straight
this is embarrassing at this point
i doubt that you don't know about intersectionality
Im deeply uncomfortable with the side-tweets so I'm going to bow out of this
have a nice day
look, uncomfortable discussion isnt tantamount to hate. its just that. its uncomfortable. its civil, but its awkward as shit. im not demonizing nobody, im making it about the ideas articulated by said people and holding true to convictions by talking them out at length. we better pack it in if a disagreement qualifies as Friendly Fire
too simple question, but just so I know: should straight people just stay away from Pride events entirely? Should organizations of any kind? My library (system, not just mine) marches in DC's Pride parade and tables at the festival and most of the folks that represent us are queer but there are some straight ones as well, if I'm ever in a position to influence that decision should I steer the ship clear of participating?
The thing is to be aware of the space you're in. Pride as a whole, the parades in particular, are places for LGBT folks to say "we exist, we're not going anywhere, and we deserve to feel as safe as anyone else". If a group, or anyone who isn't LGBT wants to come and say "we're glad you exist, please stay, and we want you to feel safe" then by all means come on down. If a group says "that's a great marketing opportunity, whatever to the message", or someone who isn't LGBT says "hey a party whoo hoo let's get down" then yeah that's shitty behavior.
In your case, depending on resources, if you've ever got the authority/influence, maybe print up LGBT reading lists of available books or something, just show that you're there to support the community, not take advantage of their gatherings.
Oh sure, we do that in spades. I've been glad to see the increase in LGBT YA fiction especially, even 5 years ago it was a struggle to populate a Pride display for teens and now you can do a pretty good one.
too simple question, but just so I know: should straight people just stay away from Pride events entirely? Should organizations of any kind? My library (system, not just mine) marches in DC's Pride parade and tables at the festival and most of the folks that represent us are queer but there are some straight ones as well, if I'm ever in a position to influence that decision should I steer the ship clear of participating?
The thing is to be aware of the space you're in. Pride as a whole, the parades in particular, are places for LGBT folks to say "we exist, we're not going anywhere, and we deserve to feel as safe as anyone else". If a group, or anyone who isn't LGBT wants to come and say "we're glad you exist, please stay, and we want you to feel safe" then by all means come on down. If a group says "that's a great marketing opportunity, whatever to the message", or someone who isn't LGBT says "hey a party whoo hoo let's get down" then yeah that's shitty behavior.
In your case, depending on resources, if you've ever got the authority/influence, maybe print up LGBT reading lists of available books or something, just show that you're there to support the community, not take advantage of their gatherings.
This is my biggest concern with a lot of these huge events now, as well as what I think the article does in striking a chord with me personally. I don't think that article at all tries to presume all LGBTQI folks want to still be "weird and scary" but it briefly does bring up the issue of assimilation and respectability in terms of how comodified queer spaces and people have become, objectified as either trends or icons without any deeper concern for the history and culture.
Nothing about that article says it's "cool" to be an outcast or feared or anything like it, but the sad fact of the matter is that while there's more acceptance specifically in the Western world and culture at the moment with a lot of us, too many cis and/or straight people tend to just skim over the fact that we're still reviled and pinned down in so many ways from media to legislation.
A lot of my concerns feel in-line with the tone of that article mostly due to my own personal experiences and opinions on Mardi Gras here in my city, in Australia (since that's the closest analogue to anything as huge and historic as Pride here). In regards to corporations coming in with huge branded floats and such, at first it makes me relieved that those are backed up by more expansive diversity policies and programs however there's still so much myopic behaviour displayed, e.g. Just last year one company touted it's huge trans representation at its float and it ended up being a single cis straight man who had happily become a drag queen in the past couple of months. Does he not deserve to be a part of the celebrations at hand? Of course he does, he's exploring in his own way, but forgive me if I'm a little bitter and cynical when I say that's nowhere near good enough to be advertised and celebrated as "transgender representation."
That's just one very recent example of how something like Mardi Gras here has ended up resembling over the decades what the article writer is concerned about.
Personally I'm just going to hold straight cis people at a way higher standard with these events. They're of course welcome because having any sort of homogenity is going to end up suffocating a culture and its byproducts, but without using these specific words I feel like that article was heavily arguing to keep things like Pride a "safe space" and that requires a lot of scrutiny to maintain.
All that said, I won't lie the piece written has some odd and poor wording choices, however to say it has no value is an incredibly heavy-handed view.
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
the alternative isnt preferable, i dont wanna put off bi people and id rather come off as ditzy and tripping over my words than as someone trying to hurt someone of similar experience
There are legit concerns about homogenisation (fun with prefixes!) of Pride
Of the corporate involvement in Pride and how hilariously hypocritical, cynical, self-serving and marginalising that can be
About how majority voices are always and will always be louder, so when majorities get involved in a minority event they're going to drown out the people the event is for
Of police involvement, striking that balance between the necessity for public safety and security while acknowledging that police are not friends to the queer community as a whole (and the trans community in particular) and should not be treated as allies or friends of that community. They ain't earned that.
Of politicians using Pride purely for votes but ultimately doing fuck all for those communities when they actually get the power.
And feeling threatened and othered by cis straight people using our event as a rainbow Mardi Gras, ignoring the message and treating us like tourist attractions
Pride is commercialized. Pride is mainstreamed. Pride is gentrified. Feeling left out, concerned, upset, threatened or just fucking angry about that is understandable and natural.
There are ways to address those sorts of things. For example, police shouldn't be allowed to march or have recruitment booths at Pride, the relationship between Pride and police should be arms length.
We should absolutely be gatekeeping politicians and corporations from official participation without real, meaningful contributions to the community.
There are things at the institutional levels of Pride, by organisers and sponsors and marchers, that need to change.
Those are more salient and more useful than just furrowing eyebrows at those awful urban youths who start fights or by trying to guilt straight people into refraining from PDA, as if that does anything of value besides make people who pass as cis and straight feel more unwelcome and judged at a place that they already feel tenuously welcome at.
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
pride exists because riots happened.
we were tired of being killed and in recent years the killing is escalating?
talking about straight people's place in pride is off the table? really?
"It brings it uncomfortably close to some of the reactions regarding bathroom policies lately"
okay, thats gross oversimplification. im not gonna defend the article wholly. but the general sentiments are not outlandish
the only thing I see that article saying is that straight people shouldn't be allowed at pride so we as a minority can keep our cool, outcast status going and it backs it up with a ton of accusations and assumptions. There's really nothing good to take from it whatsoever.
"Should LGBT people go about trying to shun or shame all the cisgender, heterosexual kids who want to join the party every year? Probably not. And of course it's great that so many people want to support and celebrate, ostensibly, LGBT equality."
It doesn't say straight people shouldn't be at pride.
And it's not about "keeping our cool outsider status", it's more about losing that special time/event to celebrate with people in similar circumstances, and to, you know, share pride.
To make a (probably shitty and not quite apt) analogy, it's kind of like Comic Con. It went from being an event to celebrate different comic/sci-fi/whatever fandoms and is now just the biggest most mainstream entertainment industry event that has pushed its origins aside for the popular money spenders
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
Like, is it good that acceptance* is so much better that Pride is becoming less...necessary? Yes, absolutely.
But it's also sad that the "specialness" is being lost
*for cis white gay men
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
pride isn't about love, pride is about being queer
queer people aren't being killed for who they love, they're being killed for who they are
Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
Straight cis folk (particularly white folk) have never had to worry about holding hands or smoochin in public. They get to do that shit every day. They've never been dragged behind a fuckin pickup truck for being who they are.
Pride has become just another capitalist advertising bonanza catering to white liberals so they can feel warm and fuzzy.
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
pride isn't about love, pride is about being queer
queer people aren't being killed for who they love, they're being killed for who they are
and I massively disagree with you as does the population of my city
if you feel it's ok to do the same hateful shit to people that has been done to us then we have nothing more to talk about
Straight cis folk (particularly white folk) have never had to worry about holding hands or smoochin in public. They get to do that shit every day. They've never been dragged behind a fuckin pickup truck for being who they are.
Pride has become just another capitalist advertising bonanza catering to white liberals so they can feel warm and fuzzy.
Straight cis folk can be at risk if they aren't careful to practice gender role conformity. I can pass as cis and straight on a day to day basis, but I don't want to, and I'm sure plenty of actual cis straight guys feel the same. I hated the pressure to conform (including threats of violence) even back when I thought I was cis and straight.
Straight cis folk (particularly white folk) have never had to worry about holding hands or smoochin in public. They get to do that shit every day. They've never been dragged behind a fuckin pickup truck for being who they are.
Pride has become just another capitalist advertising bonanza catering to white liberals so they can feel warm and fuzzy.
so because of that they shouldn't kiss around lgbt people? that's ridiculous
but yeah pride is a HUGE corporate display now but that's what comes with acceptance; we're being advertised to. as much as i dislike it, there's a good side to it
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
pride isn't about love, pride is about being queer
queer people aren't being killed for who they love, they're being killed for who they are
and I massively disagree with you as does the population of my city
if you feel it's ok to do the same hateful shit to people that has been done to us then we have nothing more to talk about
We're talking about maybe cis straights stepping back from a festival about lgbt people
We aren't killing them. This isn't nearly the same my dude
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
pride isn't about love, pride is about being queer
queer people aren't being killed for who they love, they're being killed for who they are
and I massively disagree with you as does the population of my city
if you feel it's ok to do the same hateful shit to people that has been done to us then we have nothing more to talk about
actually we have nothing more to talk about because you have proven time and time again that you approach every discussion like an ignorant child
@Calamity Jane I wanna be sure I understand what you're saying before responding to anything.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
pride isn't about love, pride is about being queer
queer people aren't being killed for who they love, they're being killed for who they are
and I massively disagree with you as does the population of my city
if you feel it's ok to do the same hateful shit to people that has been done to us then we have nothing more to talk about
We're talking about maybe cis straights stepping back from a festival about lgbt people
We aren't killing them. This isn't nearly the same my dude
I never said it's the same as killing; if you have to put words in my mouth to create an argument you can actually defend then don't bother.
You're telling people of a certain gender and orientation how to behave and where they can be. That is the exact same bullshit we've been dealing from them for decades; doing it back is 100% not okay.
Cis straight people have every right to be at Pride and absolutely should be there. We need and want our allies.
Fuck the corporations, to be honest. Businesses that were all too content antagonizing or just ignoring queer people are now all too eager to plaster everything in rainbow colors now that they see it's more profitable to be pro-gay than neutral to anti-gay. If public opinion for whatever reason decided to turn on LGBT issues again, you can bet most of these places would do a hard pivot to being bastions of Traditional Family Values.
The only good news is that it looks like some of them are at least savvy enough to try and be ahead of the curve regarding trans rights, so that will at least be some reduced friction.
Fuck the corporations, to be honest. Businesses that were all too content antagonizing or just ignoring queer people are now all too eager to plaster everything in rainbow colors now that they see it's more profitable to be pro-gay than neutral to anti-gay. If public opinion for whatever reason decided to turn on LGBT issues again, you can bet most of these places would do a hard pivot to being bastions of Traditional Family Values.
The only good news is that it looks like some of them are at least savvy enough to try and be ahead of the curve regarding trans rights, so that will at least be some reduced friction.
totally agree. I get why it's a good sign and yay whee whatever but I fucking hate them.
space rates for booths get jacked up to insane levels and spots that could have gone to actual organizations that are part of our community are squeezed out for Target and Wells Fargo to hand out temp tattoos to fucking brand you as theirs.
Can we all just take a step back from the discussion re: cis hetero folk attending a celebration and some of the rhetoric going on here? Let's not do or say anything that'll get this thread locked down when it's our thread to discuss these topics in.
Obviously, some people are of different minds when it comes to whether or not they think it's okay for cishet folk to be present/pda/support Pride. It's honestly starting to sound like personal politics. How safe you, individually, feel about it, is what you feel, but there's no reason to push that agenda on the rest of us, regardless of what we think of the issue. It's one point of view against another.
A non-trivial amount of cis gay white men are starting to hook up with varying branches of the right wing. Mostly libertarian for obvious reasons, but it's very much a "Got Mine, Fuck You" sort of thing.
I'm going to give Target a pass because apparently they're losing money over the bathroom stuff and there's been pressure on the CEO to reconsider but he hasn't caved yet.
Not going to begrudge a company that is actually putting something on the line for their principles.
EDIT: Maybe I should just praise that specific dude instead of the company as a whole
Posts
The issue is that when you say "straight people don't do this", the implication is "I will judge you if you do this and appear straight". Which isn't the same thing at all because you can't necessarily "tell" the difference between a hetero person and a bi or otherwise queer-but-cis-passing person. So now those people have to worry about being unwelcome because they don't "look" queer enough.
I don't think that's what you meant, but it's how people are going to interpret a statement like that. It's how people did interpret it.
The thing is to be aware of the space you're in. Pride as a whole, the parades in particular, are places for LGBT folks to say "we exist, we're not going anywhere, and we deserve to feel as safe as anyone else". If a group, or anyone who isn't LGBT wants to come and say "we're glad you exist, please stay, and we want you to feel safe" then by all means come on down. If a group says "that's a great marketing opportunity, whatever to the message", or someone who isn't LGBT says "hey a party whoo hoo let's get down" then yeah that's shitty behavior.
In your case, depending on resources, if you've ever got the authority/influence, maybe print up LGBT reading lists of available books or something, just show that you're there to support the community, not take advantage of their gatherings.
she usually knows what she's talking about with this sort of thing
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
straight people who are in abled/disabled relationships
straight people who are minorities and in an unsafe place
1. so a racial premise. not a straight premise
2. so a disability based bigotry. not for being straight
3. so a racial premise. not for being straight
this is embarrassing at this point
I totally understand that this is a pretty charged topic (with the caveat that I do say this as someone who only discovered their bisexuality a bit over a year ago...) but I think being charitable about what others are saying here when we're communicating via a medium that is very good at causing misunderstandings is important to consider as well. Especially for people who are known factors.
Im deeply uncomfortable with the side-tweets so I'm going to bow out of this
have a nice day
look, uncomfortable discussion isnt tantamount to hate. its just that. its uncomfortable. its civil, but its awkward as shit. im not demonizing nobody, im making it about the ideas articulated by said people and holding true to convictions by talking them out at length. we better pack it in if a disagreement qualifies as Friendly Fire
Oh sure, we do that in spades. I've been glad to see the increase in LGBT YA fiction especially, even 5 years ago it was a struggle to populate a Pride display for teens and now you can do a pretty good one.
This is my biggest concern with a lot of these huge events now, as well as what I think the article does in striking a chord with me personally. I don't think that article at all tries to presume all LGBTQI folks want to still be "weird and scary" but it briefly does bring up the issue of assimilation and respectability in terms of how comodified queer spaces and people have become, objectified as either trends or icons without any deeper concern for the history and culture.
Nothing about that article says it's "cool" to be an outcast or feared or anything like it, but the sad fact of the matter is that while there's more acceptance specifically in the Western world and culture at the moment with a lot of us, too many cis and/or straight people tend to just skim over the fact that we're still reviled and pinned down in so many ways from media to legislation.
A lot of my concerns feel in-line with the tone of that article mostly due to my own personal experiences and opinions on Mardi Gras here in my city, in Australia (since that's the closest analogue to anything as huge and historic as Pride here). In regards to corporations coming in with huge branded floats and such, at first it makes me relieved that those are backed up by more expansive diversity policies and programs however there's still so much myopic behaviour displayed, e.g. Just last year one company touted it's huge trans representation at its float and it ended up being a single cis straight man who had happily become a drag queen in the past couple of months. Does he not deserve to be a part of the celebrations at hand? Of course he does, he's exploring in his own way, but forgive me if I'm a little bitter and cynical when I say that's nowhere near good enough to be advertised and celebrated as "transgender representation."
That's just one very recent example of how something like Mardi Gras here has ended up resembling over the decades what the article writer is concerned about.
Personally I'm just going to hold straight cis people at a way higher standard with these events. They're of course welcome because having any sort of homogenity is going to end up suffocating a culture and its byproducts, but without using these specific words I feel like that article was heavily arguing to keep things like Pride a "safe space" and that requires a lot of scrutiny to maintain.
All that said, I won't lie the piece written has some odd and poor wording choices, however to say it has no value is an incredibly heavy-handed view.
* You don't have a problem with bi people kissing their "straight" partners
* You don't have a problem with trans/nb people kissing their "straight" partners
* You only have a problem with straight/cis people kissing their partners
And you're just asking that last group to consider holding back on their pda when at Pride.
Is that right?
Twitter
final...clarification...no straight person has been...persecuted...for being straight
*collapses in desert, becomes small pile of bones*
yeah, yes. yeah. completely. a fair compromise would be to "hey. i realize youre not gonna get why this makes me feel uncomfortable, but i dont wanna give you a history lesson, heterosexual strangers. Please, for gods sake, we have like one day. the trans people in the tiny trans hut just got arrested for burning an american flag. just....just give us one day. one day. look at the transgender people at that tiny trans hut. the only other day they get is like, a day where they remember where all their friends they know were brutally murdered. for god's sake. look at the poor bastards."
for the purpose of that analogy and joke im a gay man named jeff
hes really old, he smells like cream cheese. i got a whole backstory
If you're having to clarify yourself this many times to this many intelligent people, maybe you're not the shit hot communicator you think you are.
Like, maybe it's not everyone else's problem all the time .
telling certain people not to kiss in public is against everything that Pride is. I don't care what gender or orientation you are, you can make out at Pride. Pride's whole thing is All Love All The Time and putting restrictions on that is, quite frankly, incredibly disheartening.
Of the corporate involvement in Pride and how hilariously hypocritical, cynical, self-serving and marginalising that can be
About how majority voices are always and will always be louder, so when majorities get involved in a minority event they're going to drown out the people the event is for
Of police involvement, striking that balance between the necessity for public safety and security while acknowledging that police are not friends to the queer community as a whole (and the trans community in particular) and should not be treated as allies or friends of that community. They ain't earned that.
Of politicians using Pride purely for votes but ultimately doing fuck all for those communities when they actually get the power.
And feeling threatened and othered by cis straight people using our event as a rainbow Mardi Gras, ignoring the message and treating us like tourist attractions
Pride is commercialized. Pride is mainstreamed. Pride is gentrified. Feeling left out, concerned, upset, threatened or just fucking angry about that is understandable and natural.
There are ways to address those sorts of things. For example, police shouldn't be allowed to march or have recruitment booths at Pride, the relationship between Pride and police should be arms length.
We should absolutely be gatekeeping politicians and corporations from official participation without real, meaningful contributions to the community.
There are things at the institutional levels of Pride, by organisers and sponsors and marchers, that need to change.
Those are more salient and more useful than just furrowing eyebrows at those awful urban youths who start fights or by trying to guilt straight people into refraining from PDA, as if that does anything of value besides make people who pass as cis and straight feel more unwelcome and judged at a place that they already feel tenuously welcome at.
pride exists because riots happened.
we were tired of being killed and in recent years the killing is escalating?
talking about straight people's place in pride is off the table? really?
"Should LGBT people go about trying to shun or shame all the cisgender, heterosexual kids who want to join the party every year? Probably not. And of course it's great that so many people want to support and celebrate, ostensibly, LGBT equality."
It doesn't say straight people shouldn't be at pride.
And it's not about "keeping our cool outsider status", it's more about losing that special time/event to celebrate with people in similar circumstances, and to, you know, share pride.
To make a (probably shitty and not quite apt) analogy, it's kind of like Comic Con. It went from being an event to celebrate different comic/sci-fi/whatever fandoms and is now just the biggest most mainstream entertainment industry event that has pushed its origins aside for the popular money spenders
But it's also sad that the "specialness" is being lost
*for cis white gay men
And I think your * gets right to the core of the problem
These people who are coming to pride are the friends of those cis white gay men
It's like having a house party, and you've got all your roommates and you each invite all of your friends
But none of your friends can make it, and none of you other roommates' friends can make it
Except for Steven, all of his friends can make it, and they all show up to what was supposed to be (in part, at least) your party for your friends
pride isn't about love, pride is about being queer
queer people aren't being killed for who they love, they're being killed for who they are
Steam | Twitter
Pride has become just another capitalist advertising bonanza catering to white liberals so they can feel warm and fuzzy.
and I massively disagree with you as does the population of my city
if you feel it's ok to do the same hateful shit to people that has been done to us then we have nothing more to talk about
Straight cis folk can be at risk if they aren't careful to practice gender role conformity. I can pass as cis and straight on a day to day basis, but I don't want to, and I'm sure plenty of actual cis straight guys feel the same. I hated the pressure to conform (including threats of violence) even back when I thought I was cis and straight.
so because of that they shouldn't kiss around lgbt people? that's ridiculous
but yeah pride is a HUGE corporate display now but that's what comes with acceptance; we're being advertised to. as much as i dislike it, there's a good side to it
We're talking about maybe cis straights stepping back from a festival about lgbt people
We aren't killing them. This isn't nearly the same my dude
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
actually we have nothing more to talk about because you have proven time and time again that you approach every discussion like an ignorant child
Steam | Twitter
I never said it's the same as killing; if you have to put words in my mouth to create an argument you can actually defend then don't bother.
You're telling people of a certain gender and orientation how to behave and where they can be. That is the exact same bullshit we've been dealing from them for decades; doing it back is 100% not okay.
Cis straight people have every right to be at Pride and absolutely should be there. We need and want our allies.
hoo-ray
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
The only good news is that it looks like some of them are at least savvy enough to try and be ahead of the curve regarding trans rights, so that will at least be some reduced friction.
I don't actually see anyone (women, minorities, trans, you name it) as accepted yet but it's certainly better than it was 50 years ago
totally agree. I get why it's a good sign and yay whee whatever but I fucking hate them.
space rates for booths get jacked up to insane levels and spots that could have gone to actual organizations that are part of our community are squeezed out for Target and Wells Fargo to hand out temp tattoos to fucking brand you as theirs.
it's irrational but I can't stand it
Obviously, some people are of different minds when it comes to whether or not they think it's okay for cishet folk to be present/pda/support Pride. It's honestly starting to sound like personal politics. How safe you, individually, feel about it, is what you feel, but there's no reason to push that agenda on the rest of us, regardless of what we think of the issue. It's one point of view against another.
Steam: TheArcadeBear
this was a thing already specifically clarified as not being said
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
Not going to begrudge a company that is actually putting something on the line for their principles.
EDIT: Maybe I should just praise that specific dude instead of the company as a whole